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Before I make a rebuttal, let me show you this

tumblr_ncxce8GHC81sdncy8o1_1280.png

Before Knuckles and Shadow fought, he had already fought Eclipse, one of the few characters who can actually weaken Shadow and cancel out some of his natural abilities, and was still winded from that.

But of course, thanks to the massive energy source, this happens

sonic_universe___68_p_14_by_i_use_window

8 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

1. Okay theres many things wrong with the bolding statement, first of all Intimidating how?

Well, besides getting a nice comeback as shown above, he was ready to move the Master Emerald, without question or permission, and was still ready to fight Knuckles on his home turf?

You know, Knuckles? The guy that once knocked the Super out of Super Sonic?

8 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

So no Archie made Shadow officially a butt monkey to even worthy opponents and directly makes light of his power.

Not really. Shadow had a legit reason not to be at this best this particular time.

8 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

It must be because Shadow is so OP, Ian nerfed him to allow Sonic and Knuckles seem like bigger badasses than Shadow is for their fans.

Man, I can't believe Ian made it so Shadow overcame mind control and prejudice, stopped an alien invasion, survived the vacuum of space, defeated someone literally designed to destroy him, and used him to start off a side series of mostly good books to go with the main book to make Sonic and Knuckles look cooler.

8 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Out of all the Shadow, Shadow was not the most intimadating

giphy.gif

...what?

8 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Shadow pretty much stood equal but became a meme to the power houses like Sonic, Silver, Knuckles and Scourge who barely takes him seriously enough not to make fun of his angst, ego, sense of duty or his fact he's a edgy sourpuss and crybaby. Even Amy doesn't take him seriously.

So if an opponent isn't afraid of you and makes fun of you, you automatically suck by default?

...all joking aside...

Sonic- Both before and after the Genesis Wave, Sonic and Shadow respected each other

Knuckles- They kind of find a mutual respect after this. In fact, look at this

02.jpg

Despite fighting it out, they each postponed the fight once they felt in the water and both of them tried to help the other get out to avoid drowning.

Silver- To be honest, I'm not sure if we got many Shadow & Silver moments in the comics. I honestly can't think of one at the moment

Amy- Someone already got to this today and the last time Amy & Shadow were bought up.

8 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Ian flanderdized Shadow by making him less of a noble demon who is indecisive and more a edgy teenager who acts like he has no idea what he's doing

The game Shadow the Hedgehog existed way before Ian began writing for the comics.

8 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

 Thats the entire point of his ending

Which one? There's 326.

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14 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

 

Before Knuckles and Shadow fought, he had already fought Eclipse, one of the few characters who can actually weaken Shadow and cancel out some of his natural abilities, and was still winded from that.

Just gonna keep warning you about dash speed , he's the " my character needs to be the coolest and or strongest " guy. 

Wanna respond to this though, eclipse cannot do that. He cannot weaken anything, what he can do is make shadow see shit that isn't there. Which is how he got the jump on shadow, by absorbing chaos energy. When shadow did that aswell, he took him out in one blow. Eclipse vs shadow in a fight is shadow every time, eclipses powers allows him to get the jump on shadow via mind crazyness which makes eclipse more threatening to shadow than most. 

 

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41 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Wanna respond to this though, eclipse cannot do that

Eclipse literally says "It wasn't the Black Comet blocking your abilities, brother. I was made to counter you, remember?"

He's kind of like the original Anti-Venom from Spider-Man or Eraser Head from My Hero Academia.

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1 minute ago, Sonictrainer said:

Eclipse literally says "It wasn't the Black Comet blocking your abilities, brother. I was made to counter you, remember?"

He's kind of like the original Anti-Venom from Spider-Man or Eraser Head from My Hero Academia.

But he doesn't do that. He doesn't block any of shadow's powers. Shadow uses his powers. 

Until...well he doesn't exist, so until he exists again, and does that. All he can do is mind shit

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Just now, Shadowlax said:

But he doesn't do that. He doesn't block any of shadow's powers. Shadow uses his powers. 

Until...well he doesn't exist, so until he exists again, and does that. All he can do is mind shit

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Good thing Shadow could totally teleport away here.

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Just gonna keep warning you about dash speed , he's the " my character needs to be the coolest and or strongest " guy. 

 

K'yeh, he actually made you seem reasonable and even  a little humble in comparison.

 

19 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You got me

I miss-remembered because he shows back up and literally can't do that ability anymore.

Huh. If that's true, I wonder if it was because he had Black Death and the Dark Comet to back him up there?

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40 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But he doesn't do that. He doesn't block any of shadow's powers. Shadow uses his powers. 

Until...well he doesn't exist, so until he exists again, and does that. All he can do is mind shit

It's pretty clear from what happened on the comet and what happened on angel island, that at the very least Eclipse is capable of severing Shadows link with chaos energy - which means no chaos control. 

 

The black arms have no connection to the master emerald so Shadow was able to pull power from that no problem. 

 

Edit: whoops. Didn't see the rebuttal posts on the next page 

Lol

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27 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

It's pretty clear from what happened on the comet and what happened on angel island, that at the very least Eclipse is capable of severing Shadows link with chaos energy - which means no chaos control. 

 

The black arms have no connection to the master emerald so Shadow was able to pull power from that no problem. 

 

Edit: whoops. Didn't see the rebuttal posts on the next page 

Lol

Nah but eclipse was able to pull power from that. Eclipses powers, as I was just told, isn't to stop emeralds from working. Its to stop shadow from working, so shadow getting power out of the emerald isn't really a thing that should stop it. He just, if he could, didn't use it. 

45 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

K'yeh, he actually made you seem reasonable and even  a little humble in comparison.

 

Huh. If that's true, I wonder if it was because he had Black Death and the Dark Comet to back him up there?

I mean, maybe. I mean he did have a gang of wips with him, maybe it was to make up for powers he had lost. 

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On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 9:07 AM, Shadowlax said:

You got me

I miss-remembered because he shows back up and literally can't do that ability anymore.

Uh, Yeah he can. He uses it on Shadow in total Eclipse. The only way Shadow could bypass it was using the Master Emerald.

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1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

Uh, Yeah he can. He uses it on Shadow in total Eclipse. The only way Shadow could bypass it was using the Master Emerald.

He doesn't. 

The master emerald shouldn't by pass that. 

Shadow's powers is to manipulate chaos energy to do stuff. 

His powers should literally work at all times if he's using it. Because his powers is to stop shadows powers from coming from his body. It does not, so he does not use it. What he does do is mess with his mind and get the drop on him. Shadow touching the emerald was more or less just energizing himself for an attack. It is by no means a magical bypass. As soon as the energy entered shadow's body, it should have been stopped if that is powers or he was using it. That does not happen. The M.E in regards to shadow has no special property that would negate it whatsoever, nor does shadow have a connection to it as you claim before. Nothing established in this current canon suggests this, even shadow says " the power is incredible " or something like that nothing in particular,  which suggests ...its just a really big super charged emerald. 

Now from this point, here the only two ways your argument could work unless i'm missing something.

1) Shadow can overcharge and overpower eclipse and force use his powers with enough energy. And shadow learning how to overcharge is powers, is where the story is going. 

That's cool, but there's no established lore for this so, we can only work with what was presented. 

2) The M.E, chaos , or some other entity within it like echidina souls  chooses to grant people power, it deemed shadow a worthy protector based on his character and granted him the power this one time to break his opponents powers.

That's kinda bullcrap, and especially bullcrap considering shadow is fighting eclipse with powers later in he story before knuckles breaks the emerald

I would like to offer scret option 3

3) the person writing the story decided that eclipse couldn't do that anymore because that power makes it hard to progress a story. And that's why even in the next story they only focus on eclipses mind powers because they need to be able to write a story. 

Secret option 3 is what I kinda think it is, and they were coming with some way to retcon him just.. not being able to do that anymore if that story went on. I don't like secret option 3, because option 1 actually leads to good storytelling with shadow  using the power inside himself and embracing what he is to overpower his enemy. If the story ever got to that point

 

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3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

He doesn't. 

The master emerald shouldn't by pass that. 

He does. And that’s exactly how Shadow bypasses Eclipse nullifying his powers when they fight on Angel Island, sending Eclipse flying with a Chaos Blast-infused punch.

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21 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

He does. And that’s exactly how Shadow bypasses Eclipse nullifying his powers when they fight on Angel Island, sending Eclipse flying with a Chaos Blast-infused punch.

No 

he doesn't

The master emerald shouldn't nulify that. 

Eclipses powers, should negate every chaos  thing that comes out of his body. The chaos punch and blast, came from his body. That should be nulified. If they were not nulified, then he did not use his powers. 

The onus, is on you now. To justify why shadow was able to do that, with out eclipse not using his powers. Because "he used the power of the master emerald " doesn't negate, he still channeled the M.E's power though his body to use his powers, which is the whole point of eclipse. The onus is on you now. I've presented my case

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11 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

No 

he doesn't

The master emerald shouldn't nulify that. 

Eclipses powers, should negate every chaos  thing that comes out of his body. The chaos punch and blast, came from his body. That should be nulified. If they were not nulified, then he did not use his powers. 

The onus, is on you now. To justify why shadow was able to do that, with out eclipse not using his powers. Because "he used the power of the master emerald " doesn't negate, he still channeled the M.E's power though his body to use his powers, which is the whole point of eclipse. The onus is on you now. I've presented my case

Well it does, because that’s what happened in the issue where they fight. 

This isn’t up for debate—If you actually read the issue (#68 if you’re wondering), you will see just that happen as people have been telling you. Eclipse blocks his powers, and Shadow uses the Master Emerald to bypass that. It’s as simple as that.

Edit-Let me save folks the trouble and show you:

UPOfnMH0PCXt_DBUc3XSh0qQ6Q0WEgZ46mbyH7tcgO_kTUE5KwMeBBjQ01RBW4izBf_Ko6WhUsGAigV_

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7 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

"Chaos Force"

Never heard that before. 

 

7 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Reboot Archie Shadow doesn't have access to a "Chaos Force" like the original Archie Shadow. Rouge mentions that his powers have some range on their own (which is what Eclipse is able to block), but they're better with a Chaos Emerald handy, which seems to be something the games support too. Eclipse was created to be capable of neutralizing Shadow's powers, but it's pretty clear in that comic that if Shadow has access to a power greater than Eclipse's, like the Master Emerald (which overrides the Chaos Emeralds), he can get just enough of a power up to turn the tables. It seems like a fair check. It's even mentioned in "Shattered" when Team Dark was hunting Eclipse (only to find Naugus) they were concerned about Shadow falling under Eclipse's power again, and when the team splits up, he's sent off with Knuckles since

Eclipse seemed like a rather clever move on Ian's part since he seemed to have a relatively good way to have Shadow present, but not be too OP.

9 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I imagine there's a practicality of what Sega will allow. Using Omega means they can show just how dangerous Infinite is with the Phantom Ruby without resulting in what could potentially be a permadeath for another character. Though, realistically, if another character had been sent instead of Omega, they might have just written them as captured or brainwashed under the Ruby's illusions.

But it's Forces, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's a far point.

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16 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

 

 

Reboot Archie Shadow doesn't have access to a "Chaos Force" like the original Archie Shadow. Rouge mentions that his powers have some range on their own (which is what Eclipse is able to block), but they're better with a Chaos Emerald handy, which seems to be something the games support too. Eclipse was created to be capable of neutralizing Shadow's powers, but it's pretty clear in that comic that if Shadow has access to a power greater than Eclipse's, like the Master Emerald (which overrides the Chaos Emeralds), he can get just enough of a power up to turn the tables. It seems like a fair check. It's even mentioned in "Shattered" when Team Dark was hunting Eclipse (only to find Naugus) they were concerned about Shadow falling under Eclipse's power again, and when the team splits up, he's sent off with Knuckles since he can at least hold his own against him if that happens.

 

I understand that. The only reason I used energy is because someone used it before me.

18 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Well it does, because that’s what happened in the issue where they fight. 

This isn’t up for debate—If you actually read the issue (#68 if you’re wondering), you will see just that happen as people have been telling you. Eclipse blocks his powers, and Shadow uses the Master Emerald to bypass that. It’s as simple as that.

Edit-Let me save folks the trouble and show you:

UPOfnMH0PCXt_DBUc3XSh0qQ6Q0WEgZ46mbyH7tcgO_kTUE5KwMeBBjQ01RBW4izBf_Ko6WhUsGAigV_

Those are interesting theories, that said. It doesn't state that " shadow can over power's eclipses ability with a chaos emerald " anywhere. So based on what's presented, eclipse didn't use his ability. Also its funny that you posted that page infact. Eclipse used the master emerald to power himself up before fighting shadow, he got the drop on his and powered up his body. If he got powered up, shouldn't his ability to block shadow's power get powered up as well? It should

But shadow was able to use his powers. 

Like you can post pages at the end of the day , the comics presented a contradictory logic that it never really gets to address or explain. I'm not saying that everything in a comic needs to get explained down to the detail. If I needed that I wouldn't be in to cape books, but basic power logic isn't really that hard. And if eclipses ability is to block shadow and he had powered himself up to fight shadow. Shadow getting power power, shouldn't negate that. It should bring them to a neutral that they were before. Two powered up individuals , one who had already been given the abilities to block the powers of another. 

If the intent was the suggest that shadow could over power the block, ( even though the block is a shitty power in the first place ) a better way to do that visually, would be shadow to remove his inhibitor rings.That not only convey's that premise much better, it makes the stakes of fighting eclipse even more dangerous because shadow actively has to put himself in danger to fight him. Rather than an emerald who essentially gave the same power ... to the opponent as well 

So, in closing. He didn't use that ability, because shadow was able to use his powers. That is what was conveyed. If they wished to convey what you two are suggesting, they did a very shitty job and didn't convey that at all. And just made it seem like eclipse lost a power. So again, how did he use power? Because i'm looking at the pages, seems like he didn't.

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9 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Those are interesting theories, that said. It doesn't state that " shadow can over power's eclipses ability with a chaos emerald " anywhere.

Are you even reading people’s posts? Because no one said that.

Quote

So based on what's presented, eclipse didn't use his ability. Also its funny that you posted that page infact. Eclipse used the master emerald to power himself up before fighting shadow, he got the drop on his and powered up his body.

No, Eclipse didn’t use the Master Emerald to power up before fighting Shadow. That was a natural ability of his—he did the same thing on the New Black Comet against Rouge and Omega.

Quote

If he got powered up, shouldn't his ability to block shadow's power get powered up as well? It should

But shadow was able to use his powers. 

Like you can post pages at the end of the day , the comics presented a contradictory logic that it never really gets to address or explain. I'm not saying that everything in a comic needs to get explained down to the detail. If I needed that I wouldn't be in to cape books, but basic power logic isn't really that hard. And if eclipses ability is to block shadow and he had powered himself up to fight shadow. Shadow getting power power, shouldn't negate that. It should bring them to a neutral that they were before. Two powered up individuals , one who had already been given the abilities to block the powers of another. 

If the intent was the suggest that shadow could over power the block, ( even though the block is a shitty power in the first place ) a better way to do that visually, would be shadow to remove his inhibitor rings.That not only convey's that premise much better, it makes the stakes of fighting eclipse even more dangerous because shadow actively has to put himself in danger to fight him. Rather than an emerald who essentially gave the same power ... to the opponent as well 

So, in closing. He didn't use that ability, because shadow was able to use his powers. That is what was conveyed. If they wished to convey what you two are suggesting, they did a very shitty job and didn't convey that at all. And just made it seem like eclipse lost a power. So again, how did he use power? Because i'm looking at the pages, seems like he didn't.

Dude, this is being stubborn as all hell over something as simple as Shadow using the Master Emerald to bypass Eclipse nullifying ability. 

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

I understand that. The only reason I used energy is because someone used it before me.

Perhaps I misunderstood part of your post, then. But it's worth noting still that Reboot Archie Shadow has a range/limit that wasn't present with the original and I think it's key to understanding how he fights Eclipse.

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Those are interesting theories, that said. It doesn't state that " shadow can over power's eclipses ability with a chaos emerald " anywhere. So based on what's presented, eclipse didn't use his ability. Also its funny that you posted that page infact. Eclipse used the master emerald to power himself up before fighting shadow, he got the drop on his and powered up his body. If he got powered up, shouldn't his ability to block shadow's power get powered up as well? It should

Literally the page before the example you quoted, Shadow tries to Chaos Control and is blocked, beaten into the ground by Eclipse, before just reaching out to the ME (because they were fighting right next to it and he was in range to touch it). And, no, Eclipse did not use the ME. His monster form--if that is what you are referring to--was a power he already had. He uses it in "Shadow Fall" when fighting Omega on Death's Comet.

I think you're overthinking certain things, and I don't know if that's just because you're trying to elevate Shadow as a character or what. I'm not saying what the comics laid out is perfect, but I do think most of what you're asking is answered within the comic. Whether you like how they pulled it off is another story.

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I'm not trying to be. I'll concede a point if I just strait up missed something. Heck this whole argument started because someone showed I was wrong about eclipse having an ability I forgot he had. 

That said, this suggestion that shadow can override eclipses abilities, isn't conveyed in anyway in this narrative , and is conjecture on your part. Now to be fair to you two, this could have been totally in the works to be explained later. Obviously eclipse was still around,  a threat. But unfortunately the Archie comics are done. So I have to judge what is presented infront of me. And what was presented, in its story telling doesn't really convey that shadow could override it with the master emerald.  It just seems like they contradicted their own logic in a single page. And a sort of concession that eclipses powers being to " block shadow" kind of doesn't work for story telling. Because it suggests that shadow would need to be by an emerald at all times, by your logic with the M.E. Which would limit their story telling a lot considering Sega had that " they have to win " mandate.

Like if you can show me in the story where its like " shadow can do the thing with the emerald" I will be like damn I was wrong, my bad.But... untill then, its conjecture. 

2 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I think you're overthinking certain things, and I don't know if that's just because you're trying to elevate Shadow as a character or what. I'm not saying what the comics laid out is perfect, but I do think most of what you're asking is answered within the comic. Whether you like how they pulled it off is another story.

I'm not trying to elevate shadow. If I was, I wouldn't like eclipse. I like eclipse. He's a guy shadow can't outright just beat, and I find that fascinating. And he presents a moral quandary that is actually the most gray in the entire series. Survival of the fittest. I like that. I like my favorite characters being challenged and them overcoming them. 

What i'm not fond of is them overcoming them via bs. And that's what it seemed like. I don't thin it was answered in the comic. And if that was the intent. I don't think they did a good job 

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I'm temp locking this thread because I've decided to move the discussion regarding Eclipse and the Archie version of Shadow over to the Archie thread. Please bear with me. All discussion after this should really be focused on IDW specifically.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm not trying to elevate shadow. If I was, I wouldn't like eclipse. I like eclipse. He's a guy shadow can't outright just beat, and I find that fascinating. And he presents a moral quandary that is actually the most gray in the entire series. Survival of the fittest. I like that. I like my favorite characters being challenged and them overcoming them. 

What i'm not fond of is them overcoming them via bs. And that's what it seemed like. I don't thin it was answered in the comic. And if that was the intent. I don't think they did a good job  

I'll give you this, since, like I said, if you don't like how they did it, that's fine. But I do feel like the answers you're looking for are present in the comic, and at least to me, it doesn't feel inconsistent? I dunno, you'll be free to continue this in the Archie thread in a moment once I clean up. Again, please bear with me.

EDIT: Move done!

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Okay, let's look at it like this: Shadow is the Ultimate Life Force in part because he had inherited(?) an innate ability to use Chaos-Energy as a basis for attacks and techniques beyond what make most other characters considered doing with it. This is something that distinguishes him so much that later games and spinoffs emphasize it as a crucial part of his repertoire. 

Eclipse was created with the explicit purpose of countering much of what Shadow is capable of doing, whether it be mindscrewy psionics, inhibits his ability to use Chaos Control, and/or a monster form that has multiple the raw strength Shadow himself does. Thus, whenever he's around, Shadow looses that specialty and it's little more than Sonic without as much basic physical and agility based skill. 

It's been repeatedly stated/demonstrated that Shadow is able to use variants of those special abilities without an Emerald, but he needs one to use them in their proper frequency.

Conclusion: Having a Chaos Emerald enables Shadow to have more of a fighting chance, with the Master Emerald being a giant one giving him the quick boost he needed in the split moment to ward off Eclipse.

2 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

Never heard that before. 

 

It was a thing. Basically, I was an handy way of explaining the Chaos Emerald's power and/or more specifically the Brotherhood of Guardians, Enerjak, the Ancient Walkers, and Aurora-Le's abilities to independently use it as this ever-present mystical energy source.

In fact, Mr. Penders' last story had Locke(and later Knuckles) observe and comment on the fact that Shadow was able to innately tap into it when they had to learn and discipline themselves.

2 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

Eclipse seemed like a rather clever move on Ian's part since he seemed to have a relatively good way to have Shadow present, but not be too OP.

 

Pretty much, though I guess having a villain specifically for Shadow to fight is just bonus, huh? 😜

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Hey, completely off the topic, did everyone who bought a page off ABT get their pages? I got mine some weeks ago. It's in a frame and he even included a free sketch of that-one-fish-I-consider-lesbian. How nice of him!

Speaking of consideration for LGBT (yeah, the above was a segway), Aleah confirmed that she considered Clove lesbian. Maybe not officially canon, but she always saw her conflict with Sally and Lupe as part admiration with a twinge of a crushing angle. Never got addressed because the comic was not focusing on romance at that point. 

Also Twatwaffles for Jebus isn't a term I thought I'd read today but here we are. 

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