Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Xenos]

First we have Archie trying to pretentiously force it's continuity on the rest of the series by claiming that all Sonic continuities are linked through the Cosmic Interstate and that their Sonic is the "Prime" one and now we have a former writer/artist trying to claim that his fancharacter's are original creations and can pwn official characters with no effort at all?

This company and it's employees never fails to make me LOL.

WHAT? When was this ever said and/or hinted?

Also, I wonder if it's possible for Ken to see this;

To put it bluntly, Ken is just making the same arguments over and over. He keeps saying "These are MY characters, they have nothing to do with SEGA, or Archie!" Which makes no sense considering that you are blatantly using the SEGA Echidna design. The dreadlocks, the muzzle, the nose, the eyes, all of it is SEGA's style for the Sonic characters, and it's absolutely retarded to think the design isn't based off of it. Just because you gave them a new coat of paint and horrid body structure doesn't mean a thing.

And plus, the original stories are if I'm right, owned by Archie. Making a continuation of them either means completely changing everything, or continuing the original story, which, again, is owned by Archie.

Archie owns the original stories, and the obvious borrowing of SEGA's echidna design.

This sort of means that your characters, and whatever story they are based in, have everything to do with Archie and SEGA.

[Vertekins]

WHAT? When was this ever said and/or hinted?

In issue 40 of Sonic X, The Mobius Prime Shadow and Metal Sonic literally teleport into X's continuity. This outright states that there are alternate Sonic continuities in different 'universes', blatantly ignoring X's universe mechanics. Nothing in Sonic X even vaguely hints that there's a Mobius Prime in an alternate universe that would facilitate Shadow and Metal Sonic teleporting away from it into the X continuity.

Whatsmore, there were crossovers with the likes of the Sonic Anime and Underground via the 'magic' of the Cosmic Interstate, once again ignoring that this continuities have never ever even vaguely hinted within their universes that there's alternate Sonic universes through an Interstate.

It's pretentious and shows blatant disrespect for other continuities' takes on acknowledging other Sonic universes. Which they don't. Archie is forcing their continuity onto other continuities without rhyme or reason.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Not Archie, Ken Penders. Ian just ran with it for the purpose of the Sonic X crossover as a send off to it, and for Scourge-Sonic-Zonic dealings. Ken was the one who tried to establish all continuities come from Archie.

I prefer to slightly retcon it in my head and say that Zonic is just crazy and meant to say Archie is prime to all Archie-related canons (Archie's Sonic X, the Scourge Zone, etc) while the Interstate can access many other equally prime canons. Like Fleetway.

(I did like the little apocrypha Ian gave us for the reason there won't be an Archie-Fleetway crossover: Archie's Dr.Nega severed the Interstate's connections to the Fleetway canon.)

[Aquaslash]

It's pretentious and shows blatant disrespect for other continuities' takes on acknowledging other Sonic universes. Which they don't. Archie is forcing their continuity onto other continuities without rhyme or reason.

Ok then. Let's see you make a "respectul" cross over of those canons then. Saying "they wouldn't cross over" is a cop out, and an admission of failure.

[Soniman]

It's pretentious and shows blatant disrespect for other continuities' takes on acknowledging other Sonic universes. Which they don't. Archie is forcing their continuity onto other continuities without rhyme or reason.

Rather than being angry about how Archie is "forcing" it's continuity on mediocre cancelled Sonic shows, I actually enjoy them as a nice serving of fanservice and don't take it seriously at all.

It just sounds like a really weak reason to antagonize Archie if you ask me.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Grooseinator032

[Mangoaxe5]

Archie Sonic is the prime Zone, but that's only within the context of the Archie storyline which has no affect on the Games.

I think that people are reading into things a little too much.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Sheik

[Marcello]

I in no way see how that is showing disrespect.

[Kuzu]

Yeah, I'm failing to see how its "disrespect" for Archie to acknowledge older Sonic shows within its own continuity.

[Dantemustdie00]

People should be grateful to actually see oldschool and scrapped characters like Scratch, Grounder, Coconuts, Mighty, Ray, Nack/Fang, Bean, and Bark and various other elements and nods from the old games and shows still being utilize.

Boy, that is nothing to be nitpicky about indeed, I really love that their still getting some respect, whether it be small or large.

The main game universe is NEVER gonna be touched aside from short game adaptions meant to simply premote new games. I really don't get why the Sega purist are so extreme and dimwitted when it comes to this stuff.

[Mangoaxe5]

The people who work on Archie Sonic nowadays are fans of the Sonic games.

Ian, Tracy, and Paul Kaminski(the editor)grew up playing Sonic. So I don't think that they would ever try to be disrespectful on purpose.

[#EndyGate]

This Sonic Prime thing was actually from way back in the day, though I'm not sure who made it up

[Mangoaxe5]

As far as the whole primeverse thing goes it sounds like fans are ignoring the context of the story.

According to the last two episodes of Spider-Man the Animated series the comic canon(which is the original Spider-Man canon)is a spinoff world and not the prime verse. Heck he even goes to a world where Spider-Man is a work of fiction and a guy plays him on tv. He even meets Stan Lee.

Does this demean the Spider-Man comics in anyway? In my opinion it doesn't mean anything at all, it's just a story meant to entertain people which is the same thing that Archie Sonic is doing.

[The future]

People should be grateful to actually see oldschool and scrapped characters like Scratch, Grounder, Coconuts, Mighty, Ray, Nack/Fang, Bean, and Bark and various other elements and nods from the old games and shows still being utilize.

Boy, that is nothing to be nitpicky about indeed, I really love that their still getting some respect, whether it be small or large.

The main game universe is NEVER gonna be touched aside from short game adaptions meant to simply premote new games. I really don't get why the Sega purist are so extreme and dimwitted when it comes to this stuff.

[Immortheus]

I believe that it was Dan Slott who came up with the Sonic Prime thing, as he wrote the first "Zone Wars" story. Kinda amusing when you think about it, as Slott was a freelancer and only wrote a handful of stories for the Super Specials. He wasn't actual Archie staff. So with that in mind, I don't think "Archie's continuity is superior!" is what he was thinking when he wrote that story.

[Rynnec]

Ok then. Let's see you make a "respectul" cross over of those canons then. Saying "they wouldn't cross over" is a cop out, and an admission of failure.

Why? Why should he?

[Dr. Mechano]

On the subject of alternate universes, I see it like this.

The Sonic X anime and the Sonic X comic are separate from each other; They are not part of the same continuity.

Archie's version of Planet Freedom is not the same universe as the Sonic OVA, even though it's clearly based on it. (Sera is a Princess rather than the President's daughter in Archie's version for example)

It's not really a crossover, but rather Archie making up a new sub-universe directly based on another continuity. It's really similar to a crossover, but not exactly the same thing.

[goku262002]

This guy is my fucking hero. hes standing up to penders over at his forum:

Ah, but you completely dodged the question there, didn't you? He didn't ask you what your opinion was based on hearsay. He asked why you feel that you can tell others their criticism is invalid for not reading your (unpublished) works, when you are criticizing works you yourself haven't read. Your opinion isn't in question here, it's the fact that you are a hypocrite.

Oh, and, the Dark Egg Legion makes a lot more sense than Echidnas being the most powerful force on the entire planet, and yet still having never done anything to clean it up. You never did answer why Echidnas were so special in the comic, did you? An entire civilization, centuries more advanced than anyone else even after they "abandoned" their tech (with it returning as early as their very first appearance), and they're stymied by... what? Dingos? An even more advanced arm of their own family? What keeps them from just wiping out Eggman, beyond the simple fact that they're lazy?

Now, see, THAT would be a story arc. The Echidnas being shown as flawed, lazy, egotistical hypocrites. However, it was never written that way. They were portrayed as the most powerful force on the planet, and that it was their birthright, and how DARE anyone suggest otherwise. Are you going to suggest Robotnik was beneath them? I mean, that's a little odd when he took over an entire planet in ten years, and has invaded their island multiple times. I guess he's not an Echidna, though, so he's worthless by default.

So, when the time came to try to thrust your future as canon, you didn't even try to explain it. Knuckles literally handwaved him away, so you didn't have to explain why the rest of the world couldn't seem to do it if he was so unimportant. Sure, you can claim you did something great by convincing Sega to let you get rid of Robotnik for 25 issues, but who cares? Literally making a villain you don't like disappear isn't an act of good writing, and you did it TWICE. Endgame and 25YL. The first time it appeared to be hubris, but then you did the exact same "well whatever" handwave to get rid of him again. YEARS after the fact. That long, and you still hadn't come up with anything to do with him?

At that point, it's pretty obvious, you don't care about the Sonic mythos at all. You don't even care about the Knuckles mythos, where they match with Sega. You care about the little world you had to keep running on author fiat, because the comic wasn't about it at all. In that case, why would you even try to recreate it like this? You could easily just separate the Sega elements from your own entirely, since yours don't even connect at all. No one would care.

The issue, of course, is that then it wouldn't sell. No one would care. So, you're trying to keep what you can that you didn't originate; the design of Echidnas, the concept of the floating island, the designation of Guardian (something Sega had applied to Knuckles in the past), and hey, look at this, characters and stories too. Unless Knuckles has mysteriously died in a freak accident and somehow is never referred to by name ("Dad", "Your father", "That Guardian"), you can't use him. He's never been yours, ever. Plus the rest of the Sonic world can't be used, either. Everything has to take place on this island, floating in the sky. Completely disconnected from everything it would have had in the past. You have to write in a little bubble, to keep from stepping on toes. All to make sure that Sega won't have even more legal recourse to swoop in and slap you down.

For what, though? Why would you do that to yourself? The possible added money from sales due to the connections aren't worth the legal bills and hassle. You're poisoning your career over something as petty as a ten year old comic most people only remember as "that Knuckles thing". As I said before, the only thing I can see happening from this is you're looking for a settlement. You want Archie and Sega to throw up their hands, and give you something to make you just go away. Of course, if they don't agree to that, you're pretty much done for. Whether or not you are technically correct with regards to legal status, these are large companies. If they want to, they will roll you over. Oh sure, it'll cost them more than it would to hand you a settlement, but that's not guaranteed. They could just keep throwing lawyers and appeals your way every time you try to take a step.

So, why do you think a multitude of people think you're a jerk, despite you being the underdog against a big corporation? It's because you treat everyone like they're beneath you, you skip answering the questions that people want to know, you badmouth things you've admitted you've never read, and you frankly just come off like a jackass all the time. You know how Frank Miller's work can generally be summed up with "WHORES WHORES WHORES" these days? You're "ECHIDNAS ECHIDNAS ECHIDNAS" and that's all anyone really remembers you for now. This is very much not changing that; it's clinging to the past as hard as you can, trying to make it work again about 14 years too late. I loved the Knuckles comics back in the day; I reread those story arcs over and over. Going back to them now, though, they're crap. They have plot holes, they have Mary Sues everywhere, and they are completely disconnected from the rest of the world. You want to go back to that, to the crap I liked when I was 10. Well, I'm quite a bit older now. As are the rest of the people who loved your work back when they didn't know better. That crap doesn't cut it anymore, and you of all people should know that.

Someone invite him here so he can say "Fuck off" to that place.

[Soniman]

On the subject of alternate universes, I see it like this.

The Sonic X anime and the Sonic X comic are separate from each other; They are not part of the same continuity.

It's not really a crossover, but rather Archie making up a new sub-universe directly based on another continuity. It's really similar to a crossover, but not exactly the same thing.

Except word of god says the comic series takes place directly between season 2 and 3 so....

Now, see, THAT would be a story arc. The Echidnas being shown as flawed, lazy, egotistical hypocrites.

So the commentor is asking Ken to make a Dark Leigon story arc based around his own experiences then?

Edited January 7, 2012 by Grooseinator032

[Aquaslash]

Wow, KaosuReido's post was amazing and brilliantly executed. I think Ken's far too deep in it to turn around now though. He's dug his grave, and it's getting to be time for him to lie in it.

[Dr. Mechano]

Except word of god says the comic series takes place directly between season 2 and 3 so....

Can I get an official quote on that? I've heard that before, but I chalked it up to fan speculation and nothing more.

The X comic doesn't really work as part of the same continuity as the anime; Particularly if the comic is after season 2, since Eggman makes his own "Eggman bill" currency in the anime (during season 2), yet seems unfamiliar with the concept of money in the comic. A lot of smaller things cause problems too, as far as them being the same continuity.

I've always seen them as different, but if anyone can provide me with official evidence to the contrary, I will certainly stand corrected.

[Illuminous_Orb]

Can I get an official quote on that? I've heard that before, but I chalked it up to fan speculation and nothing more.

The X comic doesn't really work as part of the same continuity as the anime; Particularly if the comic is after season 2, since Eggman makes his own "Eggman bill" currency in the anime (during season 2), yet seems unfamiliar with the concept of money in the comic. A lot of smaller things cause problems too, as far as them being the same continuity.

I've always seen them as different, but if anyone can provide me with official evidence to the contrary, I will certainly stand corrected.

I remember reading this, but this was about 3 or 4 years ago when Ian said it. His mind may have changed sometime or Ian may have not noticed this slight reference. The Sonic X comics started out by Joe Edkin who wasn't really all that aware of the Sonic mythos at all (I believe someone mentioned that Amy was flying in one of his issues), and had about three or so other writers as well. So who knows at this point whether it was Joe who set this up, either a SEGA mandate, or one of the other writers. The quote that I read came from Ian's forum in one of this Q&A months. There is an archive here, but I'm not even sure which one it was asked in and there's a lot of them to slog through, whether it was even asked in one of his Q&A threads, or what I remembered wasn't even specifically about the connocity of the comic vs the show, but I do remember reading something about this on BK. Sorry if I can't find the exact quote though.

[Yong]

As beautifully written as KaosuReido's comments were, ultimately it's going in one ear and out the other of an idiot. But kudos to him at least for telling Penders straight in his face what we're all thinking.

[turbojet]

Ok then. Let's see you make a "respectul" cross over of those canons then. Saying "they wouldn't cross over" is a cop out, and an admission of failure.

Why was there a cross over to begin with?

[goku262002]

Why was there a cross over to begin with?

It was just a way to tie in the coming Sonic Universe Comics and wrap up the Sonic X universe on their end.

Btw, i thought it was all agreed that theres 2 different X universes?

[-Mark-]

Okay, this has been standing out to me for a few issues now, but having just read #232...

Does anyone else feel as though Bunnie and Antoine's dialogue feels a little stiff/ awkward/ unnatural at all? It's just that, given their respective accents, trying to rea the lines 'in their voice' just doesn't feel like it flows well, to me.

I think one of the biggest examples was from I think last issue (231)? When St. John interrupts, Antione says 'Shut ze face'. I don't know about anyone else, but personally I thought it'd would sound a lot more 'Antione-like' if he'd said something along the lines of "Please to be shutting your face" or something. D:

I know Ian said he finds Antoine hard to write since he doesn't really know any French, so I'm not gonna get on his back about it too much, but it does feel a little unfitting at times, I've found.

Also, regarding the whole issue of STH and SU being massively out of sync (what with Universe set after and referencing events that hadn't even happened in the main series at the time), I'd say this issue takes the cake; "See SU #37". Err, yeah. You mean that issue that isn't out for another month and a half, Archie? Bloody hell. D: