Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Kuzu]

Even if I didn't care for most of the Echidnas, it seems like a bit of a dick move to get rid of them like that.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's bad enough that Knuckles was famous for the whole 'last of his kind' and a unique character in Sega for that

I don't think this needs to stay spoilered for me to refute this, but as it is Knuckles is hardly famous for being the "last of his kind" or unique in that regard. Not that they've never gave it any attention and not that it isn't a major aspect of him, but Knuckles was famous for his role as the Guardian of Angel Island and the Master Emerald when it comes to fame and uniqueness, and those are his equivalent to Sonic being "the fastest thing alive" or Shadow's "Ultimate Lifeform". Nevermind that his unique character comes from his actual character, like everyone else.

Edited December 23, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SuperLink]

Good thing he didn't come up with the whole "SNOO-PING AS usual" joke in 205...wait, that was Ian Flynn.

 

DANGIT. Hopefully that guy doesn't screw up the latest arc with his way of writing...

Personally love Flynn's usage of references to the mainseries, especially with Eggman - because for me Archie Eggman has recently gone through a transformation and become a brilliant villain, he's like he is in the games, funny and a little light hearted on the outside, but on the inside boy does he mean business, I personally love that he's at a point where almost nothing can beat him and he takes it in his stride, and in one of the recent issues he walked along saying "I am the Eggman, do do do do, that's what I am" with all his destruction going on around him.

 

Idk, gushes about Eggman, he just seems more than ever like an actual evil genius with a side helping of insane.

 

I don't think this needs to stay spoilered for me to refute this, but as it is Knuckles is hardly famous for being the "last of his kind" or unique in that regard. Not that they've never gave it any attention and not that it isn't a major aspect of him, but Knuckles was famous for his role as the Guardian of Angel Island and the Master Emerald when it comes to fame and uniqueness, and those are his equivalent to Sonic being "the fastest thing alive" or Shadow's "Ultimate Lifeform". Nevermind that his unique character comes from his actual character, like everyone else.

I disagree.

 

When Knuckles is introduced, the fact that he's the last of his kind is always brought up, in both comic canons and even game canon it was brought up that he's alone and the last echidna - so yeah it may not be his defining character feature, it's utterly ridiculously ironic.

 

Because look in most canons, look at the amount of Echidnas in Archie to the amount of Hedgehogs, Foxes, Cats, Crocodiles, Rabbits, Chameleons. Almost every character but Sonic feels like the "only one of their kind", and in the comics they have family but then the most lonely character of the bunch suddenly has enough of his kind around him big enough to fill the cast of its own (bad) comic series.

 

It's just.. ironic as hell. I think surrounding Knuckles by Echidnas takes away an important part of his character and makes Vector look more lonely than Knuckles does.

[Mogtaki]

I don't think this needs to stay spoilered for me to refute this, but as it is Knuckles is hardly famous for being the "last of his kind" or unique in that regard. Not that they've never gave it any attention and not that it isn't a major aspect of him, but Knuckles was famous for his role as the Guardian of Angel Island and the Master Emerald when it comes to fame and uniqueness, and those are his equivalent to Sonic being "the fastest thing alive" or Shadow's "Ultimate Lifeform". Nevermind that his unique character comes from his actual character, like everyone else.

 

You can't deny that he's a unique looking character while the Archie echidnas all look like him in a lot of ways, just with hair or bands or clothes. Shadow is known for looking like Sonic and people scorn him for that, but with Knuckles he has always been the only echidna that's still alive.

 

I guess it's nice that Tails is unique compared to the other foxes, but why are the echidnas all like clones of Knuckles?

Personally love Flynn's usage of references to the mainseries, especially with Eggman - because for me Archie Eggman has recently gone through a transformation and become a brilliant villain, he's like he is in the games, funny and a little light hearted on the outside, but on the inside boy does he mean business, I personally love that he's at a point where almost nothing can beat him and he takes it in his stride, and in one of the recent issues he walked along saying "I am the Eggman, do do do do, that's what I am" with all his destruction going on around him.

 

Idk, gushes about Eggman, he just seems more than ever like an actual evil genius with a side helping of insane.

 

I disagree.

 

When Knuckles is introduced, the fact that he's the last of his kind is always brought up, in both comic canons and even game canon it was brought up that he's alone and the last echidna - so yeah it may not be his defining character feature, it's utterly ridiculously ironic.

 

Because look in most canons, look at the amount of Echidnas in Archie to the amount of Hedgehogs, Foxes, Cats, Crocodiles, Rabbits, Chameleons. Almost every character but Sonic feels like the "only one of their kind", and in the comics they have family but then the most lonely character of the bunch suddenly has enough of his kind around him big enough to fill the cast of its own (bad) comic series.

 

It's just.. ironic as hell. I think surrounding Knuckles by Echidnas takes away an important part of his character and makes Vector look more lonely than Knuckles does.

 

For the references, that one just made me go 'nooooooooo', but I did like the reference to E.G.G.M.A.N he keeps sticking in there because the songs are written as if the characters are saying them (sometimes, except frickin Shadow's and what not). The PINGAS was cringy D:

 

As for the echidna thing....Aye, pretty much that. I always knew Knuckles for being the last and seeing him with all these other clones just breaks it too much for me to enjoy them.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

When Knuckles is introduced, the fact that he's the last of his kind is always brought up, in both comic canons and even game canon it was brought up that he's alone and the last echidna - so yeah it may not be his defining character feature, it's utterly ridiculously ironic.

 

Because look in most canons, look at the amount of Echidnas in Archie to the amount of Hedgehogs, Foxes, Cats, Crocodiles, Rabbits, Chameleons. Almost every character but Sonic feels like the "only one of their kind", and in the comics they have family but then the most lonely character of the bunch suddenly has enough of his kind around him big enough to fill the cast of its own (bad) comic series.

 

It's just.. ironic as hell. I think surrounding Knuckles by Echidnas takes away an important part of his character and makes Vector look more lonely than Knuckles does.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about? I never said anything about him being the last of his kind never being brought up or anything of that sort.

 

I said that Knuckles may be known as the last of his kind, but it isn't what made him unique nor what made him famous. I don't know where in the world you're getting the opposite belief from because I don't think you read my post clear enough.

 

You can't deny that he's a unique looking character while the Archie echidnas all look like him in a lot of ways, just with hair or bands or clothes. Shadow is known for looking like Sonic and people scorn him for that, but with Knuckles he has always been the only echidna that's still alive.

I don't see where I was denying it. But even so his uniqueness comes more from his own character than his looks. Silver and Amy look absolutely nothing like Sonic or Shadow and they're both Hedgehogs like them, yet are they not unique characters in their own right? And even Shadow himself applies to this despite actually looking more like Sonic than the others; he looks almost like Sonic, yet he is almost completely different down to his personality and beliefs.

Edited December 23, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mogtaki]

I don't see where I was denying it. But even so his uniqueness comes more from his own character than his looks. Silver and Amy look absolutely nothing like Sonic or Shadow and they're both Hedgehogs like them, yet are they not unique characters in their own right?

 

Yes they are, Amy and Silver look nothing like Sonic or Shadow, nor are they designed to look like them like all the echidnas are to look like Knuckles. Silver's design barely makes him look like a hedgehog in the first place and Amy looks like a female character that picks up the name 'hedgehog' because they stuck a pointy tail and Sonic ears onto her. She looked like Sonic when she was first created, but the change in design meant the creators even thought she looked too much like Sonic.

 

Amy and Silver are only really hedgehogs for story and plot, but all those echidnas...well, look at them. They're all Knuckles.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Mogtaki

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yes they are, Amy and Silver look nothing like Sonic or Shadow. Silver's design barely makes him look like a hedgehog in the first place and Amy looks like a female character that picks up the name 'hedgehog' because they stuck a pointy tail and Sonic ears onto her. She looked like Sonic when she was first created, but the change in design meant the creators even thought she looked too much like Sonic.

And then there's Shadow himself. He has just about all of Sonic's abilities plus his own unique ones, and yet his personality, actions, and beliefs, even his fur color show differences from Sonic himself.

 

Uniqueness goes far deeper than just looks. That's one reason why I actually like other Echidnas like Lien-Da while being completely indifferent to others like Julie-Su and Remington.

Amy and Silver are only really hedgehogs for story and plot, but all those echidnas...well, look at them. They're all Knuckles.

I've made it clear plenty times in this topic that I don't care all that much for all but a few other echidnas (well primarily Lien-Da), but it could be argued that those echidnas are echidnas for story and plot as well: story and plot for Knuckles and his people he once thought gone, hence the reason he had a whole series for himself before it was done with.

Edited December 23, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Your Vest Friend]

I'm not really making a point here, just correcting the idea that Knuckles is the only one with masses of his species around.

 

Hedgehogs, Foxes, Cats, Crocodiles, Rabbits, Chameleons

-Hedgehogs are implied to be numerous in Mercia. Which makes sense, because Mercia is Mobius' Europe.
-Foxes...okay, they aren't so numerous. But they do have quite a few non-related representatives.
-There's a whole nation of cats in Soumerca. They can't be called lonely.
-Crocodiles...yeah. I think the fact that Crocs (err, the Croc) are so hard to draw in the first place contributes to that, although Chaotix Quest started bringing in background reptiles (Why have two reptiles when you can have a fuckton?)
-Rabbits are implied to be numerous in the Southern Baronies just as Hedgehogs are in Mercia.
-Chameleons...seriously? There's the Shinobi Clan in the Dragon Kingdom and the population in Rainbow Valley on Angel Island. The only races Penders really made numerous aside from Echidnas were them and Bees. And Ian's only new chameleon was probably better in design than all of them, but I digress.

 

It's just.. ironic as hell. I think surrounding Knuckles by Echidnas takes away an important part of his character and makes Vector look more lonely than Knuckles does.

Vector would be, given that he's a certified orphan and Knuckles...well, isn't.

Edited December 23, 2012 by VEDJ-F

[Mogtaki]

And then there's Shadow himself. He has just about all of Sonic's abilities plus his own unique ones, and yet his personality, actions, and beliefs, even his fur color show differences from Sonic himself.

 

Uniqueness goes far deeper than just looks. That's one reason why I actually like other Echidnas like Lien-Da while being completely indifferent to others like Julie-Su and Remington.

 

I already mentioned Shadow is scorned as a rip-off of Sonic, basically why he's disliked by a lot of people.

 

Lien-Da is still designed to be an evilish Knuckles counterpart though, kind of how Shadow is a darker version of Sonic, then again I don't much care for Lien-Da because to people who just pick up the comic she's fairly forgetful in name (same goes for Julie-Su who looks like a pinker version of Lien-Da). As a fairly new starter to the series, I can't say I like her other than the poses she's drawn in, even that thing she did in 243 annoyed me as a "LOOKIT WUT I CAN DO NAO CAUSE THE WRITERS LIKE ME" thing.

I'm not really making a point here, just correcting the idea that Knuckles is the only one with masses of his species around.

 

-Hedgehogs are implied to be numerous in Mercia. Which makes sense, because Mercia is Mobius' Europe.

-Foxes...okay, they aren't so numerous. But they do have quite a few non-related representatives.

-There's a whole nation of cats in Soumerca. They can't be called lonely.

-Crocodiles...yeah. I think the fact that Crocs (err, the Croc) are so hard to draw in the first place contributes to that, although Chaotix Quest started bringing in background reptiles (Why have two reptiles when you can have a fuckton?)

-Rabbits are implied to be numerous in the Southern Baronies just as Hedgehogs are in Mercia.

-Chameleons...seriously? There's the Shinobi Clan in the Dragon Kingdom and the population in Rainbow Valley on Angel Island. The only races Penders really made numerous aside from Echidnas were them and Bees. And Ian's only new chameleon was probably better in design than all of them, but I digress.

 

Vector would be, given that he's a certified orphan and Knuckles...well, isn't.

 

I think you've kinda missed the point.

 

The point is Knuckles is told by Sega pretty thoroughly that he's "the last of his kind", but Archie have managed to break that aspect of him and shove a bunch of Penders' creations everywhere that look like him. He's not unique other than having pointy knuckles and is the guardian, to whom feels he's betraying his kind all the fecking time because they don't like him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I already mentioned Shadow is scorned as a rip-off of Sonic, basically why he's disliked by a lot of people.

Shadow is scorned because of his game and character being dragged to shit in portrayal and execution among several other elements that had no business in the franchise. I was around at the beginning when people began hating him in 2004-05 during the series' Dark Ages, so I know all the reasons why people dislike him after hearing them a million times. And while it's certainly one of them, him being a hedgehog is really that high on their list of reasons they dislike him. (never mind the fact that him looking like Sonic was the whole freaking point behind his concept and portrayal during his debut both in the comics and the games)

 

That doesn't address my point of him still being unique despite his similar appearance and abilities to Sonic.

 

Lien-Da is still designed to be an evilish Knuckles counterpart though, kind of how Shadow is a darker version of Sonic, then again I don't much care for Lien-Da because to people who just pick up the comic she's fairly forgetful in name (same goes for Julie-Su who looks like a pinker version of Lien-Da). As a fairly new starter to the series, I can't say I like her other than the poses she's drawn in, even that thing she did in 243 annoyed me as a "LOOKIT WUT I CAN DO NAO CAUSE THE WRITERS LIKE ME" thing.

I don't think you're paying any attention to what I'm saying here dude.

Edited December 23, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Your Vest Friend]

I think you've kinda missed the point.

 

The point is Knuckles is told by Sega pretty thoroughly that he's "the last of his kind", but Archie have managed to break that aspect of him and shove a bunch of Penders' creations everywhere that look like him. He's not unique other than having pointy knuckles and is the guardian, to whom feels he's betraying his kind all the fecking time because they don't like him.

 

I was addressing this point;

 

"Almost every character but Sonic feels like the "only one of their kind", and in the comics they have family but then the most lonely character of the bunch suddenly has enough of his kind around him big enough to fill the cast of its own (bad) comic series."

 

And just pointing put that other species (going through the list of examples given) are numerous in their own right, not just a Sega character and their family. 

[Mogtaki]

I was addressing this point;

 

"Almost every character but Sonic feels like the "only one of their kind", and in the comics they have family but then the most lonely character of the bunch suddenly has enough of his kind around him big enough to fill the cast of its own (bad) comic series."

 

And just pointing put that other species (going through the list of examples given) are numerous in their own right, not just a Sega character and their family. 

 

I find that the problem with the other species Archie has managed to come up with to correspond with the main cast are pretty general and forgettable. Their other characters that are species that don't correspond with Sega are not so forgettable (except when they're as bland as hell are somewhat scream 'Sonic fan character').

 

Frickin an entire nation of echidnas when Knuckles is supposed to be alone. I still can't get over the fact that when I look through Archie they all look like him in a lot of ways.

[SuperLink]

My bad, I thought we were debating how good/bad it is that Knuckles is surrounded by Echidnas.

 

I just wanted to say it's bad for numerous reasons but I guess everyone agrees with that for the most part anyway so derp.

[The Tenth Doctor]

My God. I don't mind what happened so much, makes for a powerful story. My main beef is Thrash did it. Think about it this way. Thrash is one of Ian's favourite creations. One he really made. He just wiped out all Penders characters. It came off to me almost like 'My characters better than yours'. If Eggman did it, no problem. Thrash though is an uninteresting, over powered character

Edited December 23, 2012 by Santa Spudhead

[Mogtaki]

My God. I don't mind what happened so much. Makes for a powerful story. My main beef is Thrash did it. Think about it this way. Thrash is one of Ian's favourite creations. One he really made. He just wiped out all Penders characters. It came off to me almost like 'My characters better than yours'. If Eggman did it, no problem. Thrash though is such an uninteresting, over powered character.

 

Woah woah woah woah wooooaaaahhhhh. I'd say a guy who's entire race was turned into savage, primitive creatures by the echidnas has ever right to exact revenge on them.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

My bad, I thought we were debating how good/bad it is that Knuckles is surrounded by Echidnas.

 

I just wanted to say it's bad for numerous reasons but I guess everyone agrees with that for the most part anyway so derp.

Actually, I disagree with that on a conceptual level.

 

I don't see the problem with the idea there being more than one Echidna and subverting that Knuckles was the last of his kind if they make that a plot point to subvert in the first place. The way they do that, however, is another story. You know, execution and what not...

 

Let's just say that I'm indifferent about the many echidna's in the comics, yet I think it would be awesome if we had characters like Shade and Ix from Chronicles come into the games.

Edited December 23, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SuperLink]

Actually, I disagree with that on a conceptual level.

 

I don't see the problem with the idea there being more than one Echidna and subverting that Knuckles was the last of his kind if they make that a plot point to subvert in the first place. The way they do that, however, is another story. You know, execution and what not...

 

Let's just say that I'm indifferent about the many echidna's in the comics, yet I think it would be awesome if we had characters like Shade and Ix from Chronicles come into the games.

Well it was definitely poorly executed in Archie imo, there's pretty much no sense of loss anymore and they've been back for fuckin forever, maybe if they were brought back later on like Tails' parents or Bunnie's organic-ness it would have had more impact. I also think that, a few Echidnas like Shade, Tikal, some from Chronicles, might be ok, but only if they were doing their own thing and not constantly around Knuckles.

 

I just feel like the Echidnas, if returned, should be like.. there, but always a little out of reach, if that makes sense. Give Knuckles something to fight for or a past he wants to explore.

[The Tenth Doctor]

Woah woah woah woah wooooaaaahhhhh. I'd say a guy who's entire race was turned into savage, primitive creatures by the echidnas has ever right to exact revenge on them.

 

Kinda missed my point. Sure he does have a right. After what's happened who can blame him? It still reaks to me that most of what we know about Thrash was filled in by the bloody encyclopaedia. He only appeared in one story. He didn't like Echidna's much. That's all we knew if we just read the comics. Suddenly here he is, wiping everyone of the planet. He was given litlle to no development in the actual comic. also, he's holding both Sonic and Knuckles at bay. Kinda over powering him. So yes, he had the right. But after the whole legal case, Ian's character killed all of Ken's characters.

[Your Vest Friend]

Given the patchy narrative so far, I think Ian's hand was forced on this one. I don't think he wanted Thrash to actually end up getting rid of all the Echidnas so fast.

[SuperLink]

Given the patchy narrative so far, I think Ian's hand was forced on this one. I don't think he wanted Thrash to actually end up getting rid of all the Echidnas so fast.

I think the point was that Eggman shoulda done it, he actually has the means and is already plenty developed, they're trying to build him up as a real threat recently and this would have been the perfect means for him to show off and gain even more hatred and fear from the cast. Eggman is a 

threat, he's not just the goofy scientist who always messes up, he's going to eclipse a huge population and fuckin' laugh about it.

 

Thrash won't really be redeemable even as an anti-hero after this.

Edited December 23, 2012 by SuperLink

[Your Vest Friend]

It looks like Ian ruled out the Twilight Cage as the destination of the Warp Rings. Okay.

[Mogtaki]

Given the patchy narrative so far, I think Ian's hand was forced on this one. I don't think he wanted Thrash to actually end up getting rid of all the Echidnas so fast.

 

Yeah, but it'd still give Thrash that plot they've probably wanted considering what they did to his entire race, plus isn't his design based on that S3&K glitch? Creators usually like the characters they create from such things, I guess.

Ian hates Penders, I'm sure. If the echidnas stay gone, I'll be alright with that since whenever I see them I'm still constantly reminded of Penders and his clones.

[Tyranno]

Yes. Ian hates Penders. That's why he's used and expanded on a lot of characters Penders brought to the book.

Being critical of someone doesn't mean he hates them.

[-Mark-]

Man, I love how Flynn knows just how to use all the fanbase in-jokes and memes.

 

[bwrosas]

I think what's going on, is not just a "forced" change in story, but

NOW a story that will end up being more along the lines of Thrash wanting to reclaim his kind's  home (Ablion on Angel Island, which ever one it may be).  I think that's what this may all lead towards.  I could be wrong through.