Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Miko]

Why should the book teach people about social worries like attractiveness and how to attract a mate? It was originally based on SatAM and the early games, so the only social message it taught(For the most part) was "Take care of the environment."

It's not about teaching a social message. It doesn't even need to teach about how people SHOULD act like. But just that the pressure and conflict is there. To me, it's about addressing issues women deal with but without the idealisms. Sally's attitude is like that ignorant parent who tells their kid to "just ignore the bullying" when their getting beat up and robbed of lunch money. Again, not saying the conflict has to be resolved in a way people would be happy with or that it even needs to be resolved (many social issues women deal with is ongoing afterall). But they just act like the problem doesn't exist, even when it clearly does within the context of the story. Saying SatAM did this or that, doesn't mean SatAM couldn't have been better either even if it didn't. But then again, it did address the concern somewhat with Bunnie, albiet Bunnie was a rather periphreal character. The lead females aren't very strong role models because they can't be relatable to people with lots of feminine traits, and they don't have the struggles normal femals would. Granted not every person has to deal with the pressures the same way, but it is there. Bot not for them.

Your treating what I said as if "Woman writing man" is any different, it's not.

Again, it's as I've said, and as you've admitted. Women have to adapt and learn about the workings of a man's world and what's expected of men on a greater scale then men have to learn and understand women. Granted the capacity to understand and learn is there, many men choose not to. I'm not saying all women who'd write guys would be excellent writers. I'm saying though that on average though women have to understand how men are supposed to act in mainstream society more.

[Blazey Firekitty]

It's not about teaching a social message. It doesn't even need to teach about how people SHOULD act like. But just that the pressure and conflict is there. To me, it's about addressing issues women deal with but without the idealisms. Sally's attitude is like that ignorant parent who tells their kid to "just ignore the bullying" when their getting beat up and robbed of lunch money. Again, not saying the conflict has to be resolved in a way people would be happy with or that it even needs to be resolved (many social issues women deal with is ongoing afterall). But they just act like the problem doesn't exist, even when it clearly does within the context of the story. Saying SatAM did this or that, doesn't mean SatAM couldn't have been better either even if it didn't. But then again, it did address the concern somewhat with Bunnie, albiet Bunnie was a rather periphreal character. The lead females aren't very strong role models because they can't be relatable to people with lots of feminine traits, and they don't have the struggles normal femals would. Granted not every person has to deal with the pressures the same way, but it is there. Bot not for them.

Well, I don't think the book so much that it lacks feminine role models but that it lacks realistic role models in general. Sonic's usual "solve the problem by running away from it or hitting it really hard" probably isn't a good example to set for real life males.

I don't think this book has ever been concerned much with being realistic, though, for better or worse. It's been a lot of different things depending on who was writing it, but it's always been first and foremost a superhero book, hence the heavy emphasis on adventuring and combat.

[Kiljoy]

Well, I don't think the book so much that it lacks feminine role models but that it lacks realistic role models in general. Sonic's usual "solve the problem by running away from it or hitting it really hard" probably isn't a good example to set for real life males.

That's how I solve all my problems. "Urgh... Car no work, hit with hammer."

[Blazey Firekitty]

That's how I solve all my problems. "Urgh... Car no work, hit with hammer."

I guess a little primal rage goes a long way.XD

[Miko]

Well, I don't think the book so much that it lacks feminine role models but that it lacks realistic role models in general.

But if they don't have any genuine sense of life or realism in them they're just idols. They're not role models at all.

Sonic's usual "solve the problem by running away from it or hitting it really hard" probably isn't a good example to set for real life males.

1. The problem I have with how Sonic's portrayed in that way, is that he often evolves from the "OMG so impulsive" thing, and then the writers will throw him back in that loophole for no explained reason. Sonic's fighting style is something that he can feel confident in due to his abilities. But dealing with more personal concerns and issues is what helps fleshen the character out. No one's going to immediately relate to Peter Parker because he can spew web fluid. It's "cool" but it's not going to make Spiderman a relateable or interesting character on it's own.

2. Role models will have their flaws. I'm not asking for characters to portray issues how we would ideally do it. They struggle, they have their good days and bad.

I don't think this book has ever been concerned much with being realistic, though, for better or worse. It's been a lot of different things depending on who was writing it, but it's always been first and foremost a superhero book, hence the heavy emphasis on adventuring and combat.

Even if it's an action book, it doesn't mean the characters in it can't be role models or that, it's not a problem in the book's writing even if this were true.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

Why is that you feel the book should have role models, though?

The reason I'm asking is that I can't think of any Sonic canon that has included "providing good role models" as its part of its goal, and I don't see why anyone trying to market Sonic would interesting in providing that sort of thing, given that Sonic has always been portrayed as at least somewhat rebellious.

[redmenace]

I'm here to say I liked the first Sally, the pink one at least. What she became was a monstruosity.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm here to say I liked the first Sally, the pink one at least. What she became was a monstruosity.

How so?

[redmenace]

The first one was likable, was quirky as Miko says in her very long posts and didn't steal Sonic's thunder. The second is a freaking Mary Sue (several types actually) and half of comic (or more) is about her.

[Miko]

Why is that you feel the book should have role models, though?

This is really addressing the fact that Flyboy's position was defended by saying Sally was a good 'role model' I'm not necessarily saying right now yes or no. I'm just saying I don't see Sally as a good role model to make such a claim.

The reason I'm asking is that I can't think of any Sonic canon that has included "providing good role models" as its part of its goal, and I don't see why anyone trying to market Sonic would interesting in providing that sort of thing, given that Sonic has always been portrayed as at least somewhat rebellious.

The irony being that Sally and co have been portrayed as idols instead of role models (idols being far more extreme than a role model) and this book has done several things to make the characters seem like role models such as saying no to guns. Another thing I'm going to add is that the idea isn't right or wrong just because other verses don't do it. If there's a common trait in Sonic verses that constitutes as very bad writing, it's not validated because that trait hasn't been fixed in any other universe.

[redmenace]

If Sally was average on looks, then I'd agree she could be a role model, like living with what she has. Instead, she's a flawless beauty (as far as the characters are concerned, I'm not that weird) with suitors slobbering all over her boots (she's never the one to pursue them, god forbid, virtuous wome are supposed to be chased, not the other way around) and she doesn't lift a finger to achieve any of it, and everyone that thinks and does the opposite is portrayed as shallow or annoying. What the hell is this and why do people think it's acceptable? Even models have to work it up. Even natural charming people have to make an effort to cativate someone sometimes. Sally on the other hand? Everything falls on her freaking perfect lap. Excuse me for not liking it.

Edited October 24, 2009 by redmenace

[Blazey Firekitty]

If Sally was average on looks, then I'd agree she could be a role model, like living with what she has. Instead, she's a flawless beauty (as far as the characters are concerned, I'm not that weird) with suitors slobbering all over her boots (she's never the one to pursue them, god forbid, virtuous wome are supposed to be chased, not the other way around) and she doesn't lift a finger to achieve any of it, and everyone that thinks and does the opposite is portrayed as shallow or annoying. What the hell is this and why do people think it's acceptable? Even models have to work it up. Even natural charming people have to make an effort to cativate someone sometimes. Sally on the other hand? Everything falls on her freaking perfect lap. Excuse me for not liking it.

I can understand why you wouldn't like characters just fawning over Sally just because she's there. And admittedly, there was a period in the book where that did happen, with Sonic, Knux, and Geoff all in love with her.

But that was over a decade ago. Sonic and Sally are no longer romantically involved...they're currently trying to salvage what was left of their friendship. The closest thing to what you're talking about is Monkey Khan crushing on Sally, and that could arguably be attributed more to him being a mentally unstable loner than anything to do with Sally.

I'm not trying to insult you, or say that you don't have a right to your opinion. I'm just saying that the book has changed a lot in recent times.

[Flyboy Fox]

The letters page indicates that Sally may finally be moving on from Sonic and have her own interest in Monkey Khan. This would be good even if I personally wish that Sally and Knuckles had got together =(

[Blazey Firekitty]

The letters page indicates that Sally may finally be moving on from Sonic and have her own interest in Monkey Khan. This would be good even if I personally wish that Sally and Knuckles had got together =(

I never quite understood why Ken Penders didn't just hook Sally up with Knux instead of trying to kill her off in Endgame and making Julie Knuckles' girlfriend. I mean don't get me wrong, I like Julie, but it's kinda irritated more for a while that Sal and Knux were set up as a potential couple, and then nothing was ever done with that.

[redmenace]

I can understand why you wouldn't like characters just fawning over Sally just because she's there. And admittedly, there was a period in the book where that did happen, with Sonic, Knux, and Geoff all in love with her.

But that was over a decade ago. Sonic and Sally are no longer romantically involved...they're currently trying to salvage what was left of their friendship. The closest thing to what you're talking about is Monkey Khan crushing on Sally, and that could arguably be attributed more to him being a mentally unstable loner than anything to do with Sally.

I'm not trying to insult you, or say that you don't have a right to your opinion. I'm just saying that the book has changed a lot in recent times.

As you said so, Monkey Khan is fawning over again, and I don't care if it's different or not. Also M:YL was just around the corner as well, and there he and Sally are married. I don't see hwo this heavy focus on Sally's love life has toned down at all. It's the old times back again. Ian also pays a lot of attention to Sally and Sonic together. He confides more in her her than in Tails. I don't like it and I'm not required to. I doubt Ian will let Sally go to Khan without Sonic protesting one word against it. He'll probably show a bitter face or something, like "oh I lost the perfect girl" and I'm frankly disgusted by this bullshit. He has a shipper of Sonic and Sally before he went working to Archie. If he does, then I'll like it but I don't think it will matter in the long run. This comic has way too much bagage as it is.

Edited October 24, 2009 by redmenace

[Flyboy Fox]

Sonic/Sally has always been the central ship since SatAM (where it was canon), so of course there's gonna be ripples if Sally moves on... but the fact is that they ARE allowing her to move on. Can't we just be happy about that instead of picking holes in it if Sonic doesn't act 100% favourably?

[Blazey Firekitty]

He confides more in her her than in Tails.

Normally I'd agree with you, but as of 205, Sonic has been more open with Tails than he's been in years.

I don't like it and I'm not required to.

Well, yes, it certainly would be strange if people were requiring you to like Sally.;;

[redmenace]

Sonic/Sally has always been the central ship since SatAM (where it was canon), so of course there's gonna be ripples if Sally moves on... but the fact is that they ARE allowing her to move on. Can't we just be happy about that instead of picking holes in it if Sonic doesn't act 100% favourably?

I said I was going to be happy about it, I said so in my post. I just think Ian is going to have "the last slap" regardless if he's really going to move on or not.

Normally I'd agree with you, but as of 205, Sonic has been more open with Tails than he's been in years.

Well, yes, it certainly would be strange if people were requiring you to like Sally.;;

One exception is not the rule. There needs to see more otherwise it's just a fluke.

It's not. It's a requirement for enjoying the comic and the show, since she's always there for whatever reason.

[Blazey Firekitty]

It's not. It's a requirement for enjoying the comic and the show, since she's always there for whatever reason.

But she's not in Fleetway's Sonic the Comic(Except in very early issues), Sonic Underground, Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog(Save the Christmas special), or any game that isn't Sonic Spinball.

I don't understand why you're torturing yourself when there are other, less Sally-centric continuities to choose from.;;

[redmenace]

I'm not torturing myself, I'm not that extremsit.

I read the comic because there's no other Sonic comic around at this point.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm not torturing myself, I'm not that extremsit.

I read the comic because there's no other Sonic comic around at this point.

Hmm...How do you feel about Amy?

[redmenace]

She almost doesn't exist in the comics. What about her?

[jutgf]

Ya know, I think it's time for Shadow to get a love interest. I mean the dudes a main character to right? Archie needs to develop his character outside the self path of justice route and loner and like Sonic said get a girlfriend to further open his character in the story and his place in it from what he's been written as. I'd appriate it if Rouge and Shadow had more character development with each other.

[Dr. Mechano]

Ya know, I think it's time for Shadow to get a love interest. I mean the dudes a main character to right?

I don't see the connection.

Since when does every main character need a love interest?

I mean, I couldn't care less whether Shadow gets a love interest or not, so I don't exactly oppose the idea. But I take issue with your reasoning. Major characters can be single, and minor characters can have love interests. Sometimes they even get really zany and pair a major character and a minor character up! Shenanigans.

A character's prominence in the cast really has nothing to do with how their romantic development, if any, should unfold in the story.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Dr. Mechano

[Blazey Firekitty]

She almost doesn't exist in the comics. What about her?

Just wondering if you'd like to see her get more screentime.;;