Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Your Vest Friend]

Sonic Archives #23 has apparently been pushed back to August 14th.

[Big Panda]

Funnily that's actually one of the few fan letters I remember reading from those early issues.

And I hate to say it but I kinda agreed with the guy, at least considering how Manaks art looked at that particular point. His work, when he began, was pretty great (everything from OMS#3 and on), but then there came a point around the 10-20 mark where his interiors just became really...sketchy-looking. I believe he put more effort into the covers than the actual comic.

That letter also reminded me how the comic almost completely avoids posting letters containing criticism these days. I can't remember the last time I read a letter that wasn't anything but "HI YOUR COMICS ARE AWESOME I LOVED *insert issue(s)/story arc here* I WANT A SONIC UNIVERSE ARC ABOUT BLAZE AND BEAN NEXT CAN I BE SILVERS No. 1 FAN PLZ KTHNXBYE*

[Toby]

Let the kids have their fun little letters printed.

[biznizz]

It seems that peoples' attitudes have really soured since then, that there's less less hesitancy to be cordial. I can only imagine the kind of the letters they get for the reboot and from Penders boosters.

That and there's only one page for letters nowadays, so there's only one or two printed.

[Wittymations]

What? The initial letter or the response? Or both?

Well, I suppose the initial letter can seem kinda rude, but he's a fan and not bound to any kind of image. Not really. So, he can say whatever he likes, point or not point.

 

I'm mainly talking about the response though. It's so... in your face, it looks like a whiny kid on the Internet answering to Deviant Art critics. "Oh yeah? See here!"

[Delta Starfire]

Well, I suppose the initial letter can seem kinda rude, but he's a fan and not bound to any kind of image. Not really. So, he can say whatever he likes, point or not point.

 

I'm mainly talking about the response though. It's so... in your face, it looks like a whiny kid on the Internet answering to Deviant Art critics. "Oh yeah? See here!"

 

Well, what are you supposed to do in that situation? Say, "Thank you, we'll fire him immediately"? If it were true that they had received many more letters praising his art, then they were just giving the readers what they wanted by keeping him around. Responding to criticism doesn't have to be you agreeing with the criticism. Sadly, it seems a lot of critics feel every bit as entitled as the kind of deviantART "kids" you mention. Not all criticism is created equal, and some of it does come from people who either don't understand the legitimate reasons why an artist has done something, or they don't care. Because entitlement. 

 

Now, I'm not saying that this critic was necessarily wrong. I'm not a fan of Manak's work generally speaking either. But that's kinda beside the point. If other people enjoyed it, that is ultimately what mattered to Archie. 

[Dwapook]

As a kid who was picking up the book monthly since day one, I liked Manik's a lot work back then.. Never really questioned that response.. o.O;

[Delta Starfire]

Reading -- well, skimming -- StH #33. This is probably the latest of the really zany AoStH style stories. The freedom fighters have been given the dreaded lurgi by Robotnik, so Sonic shrinks himself down to go inside Rotor and fight the virus himself... whereupon he meets Rotor's -- urgh -- auntie bodies... This story is terrible and the Wrenn & Stimpy style close ups of inside Rotor are horrible.

EDIT: Oh yes, it also appears to be Locke's first appearance, albeit hooded and cloaked to hide his face. It's the beginning of the tediously long breadcrumb trail story arc for Knuckles yay! >_>

EDIT 2: Hockey match between the freedom fighters and Snively's team of swatbots.

Done.

[Zaysho]

Reading -- well, skimming -- StH #33. This is probably the latest of the really zany AoStH style stories. The freedom fighters have been given the dreaded lurgi by Robotnik, so Sonic shrinks himself down to go inside Rotor and fight the virus himself... whereupon he meets Rotor's -- urgh -- auntie bodies... This story is terrible and the Wrenn & Stimpy style close ups of inside Rotor are horrible.

EDIT: Oh yes, it also appears to be Locke's first appearance, albeit hooded and cloaked to hide his face. It's the beginning of the tediously long breadcrumb trail story arc for Knuckles yay! >_>

EDIT 2: Hockey match between the freedom fighters and Snively's team of swatbots.

Done.

I remember buying this issue as a kid and being amazed at the ad for "Super Sonic vs. Hyper Knuckles" which Spaz illustrated (which, sadly, was never reprinted anywhere to my knowledge). It's still my favorite bit of that issue, sadly (and the cover's pretty... sick...*bricked*).

As for the tedious/long breadcrumb trail Pender was plotting with Locke... I think the build-up to the Knuckles series was more interesting than what we ended up with. When Penders got the greenlight for the series, the first thing he did? BOOM! Echidnas. Echidnas everywhere. It was one thing with the Dark Legion, but suddenly futzing about with all that pocket zone nonsense (let me guess, this was lifted from Star Trek/Wars or something, wasn't it?) to reveal a thriving civilization when all the other hints in the mini-series and back-ups prior pointed toward Echidna society pretty much dying out, leaving only a few remnants that led to Knuckles being the last of his line (and Locke working behind the scenes to test Knuckles), soured things in hindsight.

I'm sure I liked it more as a kid, and even then I still think the earliest issues of the Knuckles book were still pretty good until Penders got out of control (probably because it often intersected with the main Sonic book), but even just a cursory glance at those old back-ups was way more interesting than what Penders would ultimately write into the series.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

I remember buying this issue as a kid and being amazed at the ad for "Super Sonic vs. Hyper Knuckles" which Spaz illustrated. It's still my favorite bit of that issue, sadly (and the cover's pretty... sick...*bricked*).

As for the tedious/long breadcrumb trail Pender was plotting with Locke... I think the build-up to the Knuckles series was more interesting than what we ended up with. When Penders got the greenlight for the series, the first thing he did? BOOM! Echidnas. Echidnas everywhere. It was one thing with the Dark Legion, but suddenly futzing about with all that pocket zone nonsense (let me guess, this was lifted from Star Trek/Wars or something, wasn't it?) to reveal a thriving civilization when all the other hints in the mini-series and back-ups prior pointed toward Echidna society pretty much dying out, leaving only a few remnants that led to Knuckles being the last of his line (and Locke working behind the scenes to test Knuckles), soured things in hindsight.

I'm sure I liked it more as a kid, and even then I still think the earliest issues of that book were still pretty good until Penders got out of control (probably because they often intersected with the main Sonic book), but even just a cursory glance at those old back-ups were way more interesting than what Penders would write into the series.

Marvel or DC actualy, I want to say Marvel established Mount Olympus as one in the 60's 

[biznizz]

Gorilla City from the Flash comics?

Also, wasn't the Snively hockey story a Penders writ/ill? Sounds stupid enough to be one of his.

[Wittymations]

Well, what are you supposed to do in that situation? Say, "Thank you, we'll fire him immediately"? If it were true that they had received many more letters praising his art, then they were just giving the readers what they wanted by keeping him around. Responding to criticism doesn't have to be you agreeing with the criticism. Sadly, it seems a lot of critics feel every bit as entitled as the kind of deviantART "kids" you mention. Not all criticism is created equal, and some of it does come from people who either don't understand the legitimate reasons why an artist has done something, or they don't care. Because entitlement. 

 

Now, I'm not saying that this critic was necessarily wrong. I'm not a fan of Manak's work generally speaking either. But that's kinda beside the point. If other people enjoyed it, that is ultimately what mattered to Archie. 

I... didn't say he had to agree, I was talking about the responses' attitude. It was the way it was worded that sounded so whiny. "You are wrong!" and stuff being put in there. Almost like the response is like saying, "How DARE you?!"

 

I wasn't talking about the opinion of the letter or the response, I was talking about the attitude and wording behind it.

[biznizz]

Well, it's time, once again, for some more recap. With Universe now started up, I'm going to be covering less issues of the main comic, but am going to cover both as well as I can. Unfortunately, I don't have much time this weekend (less than I thought) so my original plan (to cover 201-211, the FCBD 2010 issue, and Universe 05-16) will have to wait for a few more days. I do, however have enough time for a write up of... 30 Years Later, so that's something. I guess. Sorry, I don't think this recap will be entertaining in the least, this was more draining than I had thought it would be, so even the recap is going to be dry. If I had enough time, I'd have rather done the whole Iron Dominion arc, but I don't have enough time for 11 issues and a writeup right now; I'm lucky I had enough time to read & write up four.

 

So... Under the spoiler, here's Sonic Universe 05-08.

 

Universe 05-08. 30 Years Later. Let it be known that not even Ian Flynn can save a lousy concept from being a lousy concept. Even with the addition of another 5 years to that. A newscaster gives us a recap of events of 25 Years Later 2 which, among other things, informs us that to save overcomplications, Castle Mobius was moved to Portal City on Angel Island, and that Sally & Sonic wasted no time in trying to have their kids again (again, kinda creepy...). In fact, the very real reality that Lara-Su, who's now babysitting five year old Sonia & Manik, is now watching over what are essentially replacements for the teenagers she once knew in another reality is never addressed, at least not aloud. I'll give Ian this, Lara-Su does seem to have more personality in this story, even if it's still not that much; she plays around with Sonia & Manak while Sally & Sonic are out for dinner. But all is not well as Lien-Da and the Dark (Legion) Presence, now outlaws for backing King Shadow, are preparing to wipe out those involved with the coup such as Sonic, Sally, Knuckles & Lara, only temporarily staying their hand for the presence of innocent children. The next day sees a large crowd, including Tails, Mina and their kids Melody & Skye (who's whole family is still baffling. Seriously Ken, Tails & Amy would have been less crack-y), gathered to hear a royal address, while Lien-Da's troops prepare for an assassination while Lara plays guard duty. Lara falls for a decoy, but fortunately Lien-Da's rocket is intercepted by Silver The Hedgehog, who has come to once again try to save his future.

 

Silver's attempt to find the traitor has led him to the (alternate timeline) future of 30YL since it appears this time could lead to his Great Disaster. But considering no one in this time has ever seen him before, Sonic included, it looks like he won't get too much out of it, his brief musing that Sally, who disbanded the Freedom Fighters, is the traitor is quickly brushed aside. Lara goes to confront Rutan about any possibility of his knowing of where his mother Lien-Da is hiding; it doesn't go well as Dimitri tries to comfort a subtly panicking Lara with some advice. With the attempt to kill King Sonic a failure, the Dark Presence makes another move, gassing & abducing Tails & Mina while their kids escape, and a sleeper agent on the royal staff knocking out Silver while the castle's defenses are hijacked, forcing King Sonic & Lara to escape the castle where they meet a panicking Melody & Skye. After some encouragement from King Sonic, Lara informs them they can get some help from her boyfriend (the implication is strong) Argyle, who's Vector's son. But things are looking bad as Lien-Da & her men use a Chaos Siphon to release King Shadow from his inprisonment.

 

As Queen Sally takes the kids and a still unconcious SIlver to the royal panic room, King Sonic, Lara & the Prower kids make it to Argyle so he can help them get into contact with any of the Chaotix or former Freedom Fighters he can get. Everyone's spread a bit too far to be easily recalled, but Argyle had managed to get two surprising faces willing to help out. After Lien-Da reveals to King Shadow that most of the world has accepted the rule of Sonic & Sally, he makes his final judgment on the planet and goes to unleash one of the sealed away weapons under the castle. It turns out that the two that Argyle managed to get are Bunnie & Antoine's kids: Jacques and Belle, and I have to ask, "Why are they half roboticized?" No, really? Why? I know this is a little detail, but it bugs me and I know it bugs a lot of people. Is the implication that they were born with them? Is Bunnie's uterus a partial roboticizer? Ehh... Anyways, the two flirt with Argyle & Lara briefly before agreeing to help out with the new Freedom Fighters, along with Melody & Skye. King Shadow goes to meet what is perhaps the most oddly placed interesting, but infuriatingly vague idea in the whole story, Tikhaos: a fusion of Chaos with Tikal's conciousness who is sealed away but feels the constant need to feed on Chaos Energy for substinence. Lien-Da is vocally against King Shadow's plan to release her, and he responds by destroying Cobar's chrono devise, erasing Lien-Da from this timeline (I guess the implication is that she died sometime after her son was born?). The New Freedom Fighters (sans Argyle who's on comm duty) split into two groups to invade the castle (with Skye's flying being the opposite of his father's method due to lack of practice), and they easily manage to dispact the Dark Presence in the security room. Queen Sally manages to get into contact with King Sonic and tells him that the Catacombs below the castle house weapons to dangerous to even attempt to destroy, such as E-107 Theta, the Anarchy Beryl Bomb, and Tikhaos. King Shadow blasts Tikhaos with more Chaos energy than she can handle and "loses control again" as she beings to grow uncontrollably. The castle begins to crumble and the NFF's barely manage to get out before they are in the presence of Perfect Tikhaos.

 

So with Perfect Tikhaos unleashed, things are starting to get a little hairy. Apparently during some bru-haha with Naugus during the Ixis Emergence & Elemental Wars, Tikal & Chaos were forced to fuse into one being and she can only be calmed by being weaked & subjected to Tikal's Prayer. King Shadow monologues that everything he's done was to fulfill Maria's wish of a peaceful world and if they wouldn't listen to him, he'd wipe out most of the world and have the left overs come crawling back to him "when they've learned their lesson". Ugh....Then he vanishes, never to be seen in the rest of the story; possibly for a sequel that would never, ever come. Whatever. Because I'm getting really, REALLY sick of this story, I'm gonna speed up with the rest. Sonic gets his wife & kids out of the castle, the NFF fight Perfect Tikhaos without much effect, the Dark Presence relased Tails & Mina who then go to help, Silver doesn't do much, and Sonia & Manak manage to use their speed to weaked Tikhaos enough for Lara-Su to use the Prayer to return her to "normal". Silver apparently has accomplished his mission by stopping Tikhaos apparently (there was a mention of an angry sea or something), and leaves to fulfill his mission in the proper time period again. The New Freedom Fighters officially are founded under King Sonic and they promptly drop off the face of the comic to never appear again. Then the next arc is teased with Dr. Finitevus appearning in Downunda and meeting with a platypus D.E.L. Grandmaster.

 

This was truly one of Ian's worst stories, even if it was better than the first 25YL on nearly every level. Even if the Pendering didn't screw this future over completely, I couldn't see much happening with this time period at all, it was absolutely uninteresting save for a few details that would never get explored. Oh, and speaking of the Pendering, there are aspects of this time, hereupon now referred to as Light Mobius. If you remember the recent arc in the book, The Chase, the new E-106 Eta Badnik was originally supposed to be called E-107 Theta. However, whether through Penders' lawyers or by Archie/SEGA themselves, nearly every aspect that was mentioned in Light Mobius, even when introduced wholecloth by Ian, was forbidden, even if it was merely an offhand comment at the time (this kind of legal antic is why Beau & Matilda aren't going to be coming back either. Yeah.). At this time, it looks like Theta will not ever be a part of the book. Oh, and neither are any of the offspring like Lara-Su, the D'Coolettes, Prowers, or Sonia & Manik, if you care.

[QuantumEdge]

One thing I always disliked about Mobius 30 Years Later was that other than the whole idea itself being bad, I always hated how they mentioned all these big details (Theta, some Ixis and Elemental Wars, etc).  We never even got a single flashback panel or something to help us get a clear idea.  Even if they did that though, I'd still have found Light Mobius to be a world that wasn't worth revisiting ever again.

[Vertekins]

I actually thought Mobius 30yl was pretty endearing. My biggest issue with it was the complete BS that was King Shadow. Specifically his portrayal.

[Mogtaki]

I actually thought Mobius 30yl was pretty endearing. My biggest issue with it was the complete BS that was King Shadow. Specifically his portrayal.

Tell me about it, especially when Shadow is supposed to be an anti-social prick; just why would he want to be effectively in CHARGE of everyone with everyone knowing who he is?

[ElectricAngel]

Eh, Mobius 30 Years Later. This story is one I'm really hesitant on. But I don't want to skip the GN and just have all the other volumes with one missing. I dunno, I first read Mobius 25 Years Later in the Sonic Super Special Magazine and I found it sooo boring. It was just so slowly paced and barely anything happened from what I remember. Some backstory with Knuckles? And a lot of focus on his daughter for some reason who is dealing with teen drama? Ehhh. And I think there was something about Sonic having a kid. Yeah it wasn't too memorable and it was a drag. It's the first time I wasn't interested in reading a story within the comics and after reading several people's thoughts on 30 Years Later, I really don't ever feel like touching that story.

 

Also, didn't fans apparently like 25 and 30 Years Later? I think I remember reading a Sonic-Grams fan letter once asking if there was going to be a 35 Years Later, in which the editor (or whoever replies to the comics) said we might see something. And yeah we all know it's never gonna happen. And I think it's for the better. I don't see the need to see the future world of Sonic. The idea is interesting, sure. Just, not for Sonic. At least that's my opinion.

[Sega DogTagz]

 

 

Also, didn't fans apparently like 25 and 30 Years Later? I think I remember reading a Sonic-Grams fan letter once asking if there was going to be a 35 Years Later, in which the editor (or whoever replies to the comics) said we might see something. And yeah we all know it's never gonna happen. And I think it's for the better. I don't see the need to see the future world of Sonic. The idea is interesting, sure. Just, not for Sonic. At least that's my opinion.

 

I can't speak to general consensus, but around my parts all the XYL storylines were complete disasters and totally unwelcomed. The slid too far from established character norms and opened cans of worms that didn't need to be opened.

[biznizz]

Quick question: do any of you guys think that Ian will include an issue or two dealing with "Night of the Werehog" with the three ghosts?

 

Or do you think that'd be too much of a distraction from the plot?

[goku262002]

I hope he does that AND adds in some of the Unleashed shorts via montage or something.

[Eitarou]

As long as they could make it plot relevant, then yes.

 

Sonic (and friends?) could enter a haunted mansion and meet up with the ghosts.

 

Hey, maybe the ghosts could even talk!

[Sega DogTagz]

Ian's made a living picking up the scraps and leftovers that Sega leaves untapped and spindash's them into gold.  I think the the set of three ghosts fit right up that ally. I was supremely disappointed that they only got cameo status in Unleashed...

 

Man, could you imagine that lot as the antagonist's of a mini-arc? You've got the comic relief angle covered, the big bad dealt with via fusion and an interesting impress the girl subplot to tie it all together. I bet you could make an extremely entertaining couple of issues out of all that.

 

Plus we sorely need more art of Raa.

[Zaysho]

As long as they could make it plot relevant, then yes.

 

Sonic (and friends?) could enter a haunted mansion and meet up with the ghosts.

 

Hey, maybe the ghosts could even talk!

 

I'd kinda love to see the Chaotix get mixed up with more ghost stuff, since I don't see them totally facing up their fears in "The Great Chaos Caper," so far, no matter how much Knuckles reassures them. Seeing their faces when Sonic goes full Werehog before their eyes while taking on the ghosts would be comic gold.

 

Realistically, I'm not expecting there to be time to squeeze the ghosts in, but I think it'd make a fun detour, provided it can run parallel with the main story with no problem.

[Delta Starfire]

I... didn't say he had to agree, I was talking about the responses' attitude. It was the way it was worded that sounded so whiny. "You are wrong!" and stuff being put in there. Almost like the response is like saying, "How DARE you?!"

 

I wasn't talking about the opinion of the letter or the response, I was talking about the attitude and wording behind it.

 

Interesting. That's really not the tone I got from the response at all. It was a little defensive, but not at all whiny. They didn't flat out say, "you are wrong"; they said, "we disagree". 

 

EDIT: Oh yes, I'm up to issue #34 now. I had a quick skim through. Two words: General Robotnik.

 

I don't wanna! ;.;

 

Also, having re-read Super Sonic vs. Hyper Knuckles... Snore! BOR - ING! 

 

There's no good reason why Sonic and Knuckles got into the fight in the first place, apart from "I don't trust him, Sally!" and "You again!" Also, I am so glad the comic eventually abandoned the idea that all the game levels are basically pocket universes and not part of Mobius itself. That never made any sense to me. 

[Wittymations]

Interesting. That's really not the tone I got from the response at all. It was a little defensive, but not at all whiny. They didn't flat out say, "you are wrong"; they said, "we disagree". 

Actually, it's right in the beginning, granted it was about printing the letter. Perhaps wording made me read the rest as whiny.

 

 

Also, the overuse of exclamation marks doesn't help. Sounds like he's screaming.