Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Delta Starfire]

Actually, it's right in the beginning, granted it was about printing the letter. Perhaps wording made me read the rest as whiny.

 

 

Also, the overuse of exclamation marks doesn't help. Sounds like he's screaming.

 

Aha, I think I see the problem. "You're wrong" appears to be referring to the writer saying "you won't print my letter". And that, in itself, is pretty whiny, entitled, and petty, in my not remotely humble opinion. 

 

EDIT: BEHOLD! NINJA POWER!

[Zaysho]

Actually, it's right in the beginning, granted it was about printing the letter. Perhaps wording made me read the rest as whiny.

 

 

Also, the overuse of exclamation marks doesn't help. Sounds like he's screaming.

I just read it as them trying to have fun with their readers, but I think I'm just used to this kind of thing in comics letters pages. I don't think the letter writer expected his letter to get printed, but the editor ran it anyway. He doesn't say that the writer is "wrong" for not liking Manak, though he does urge him to reconsider by checking out more recent work. That's how it appears to me, in any case.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

 

Also, having re-read Super Sonic vs. Hyper Knuckles... Snore! BOR - ING! 

 

There's no good reason why Sonic and Knuckles got into the fight in the first place, apart from "I don't trust him, Sally!" and "You again!" Also, I am so glad the comic eventually abandoned the idea that all the game levels are basically pocket universes and not part of Mobius itself. That never made any sense to me.

Dat Spaz cover doe... lol in truth, the story is pointless, but I figure it's one of those big comic book showdowns in an effort to grab more sales. It's dated as all hell, but it's sorta fun, but man, the seams really show in how the Archie creative team at the time couldn't figure out how to incorporate game elements in a meaningful way without resorting to pocket zone nonsense. I'm sorta surprised SEGA never said "no-no, 'zones' aren't other dimensions, except for the Special Zone," but... oh wait, SEGA in the mid-90s, never mind.

[Delta Starfire]

I just read it as them trying to have fun with their readers, but I think I'm just used to this kind of thing in comics letters pages. I don't think the letter writer expected his letter to get printed, but the editor ran it anyway. He doesn't say that the writer is "wrong" for not liking Manak, though he does urge him to reconsider by checking out more recent work. That's how it appears to me, in any case.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

 

Dat Spaz cover doe... lol in truth, the story is pointless, but I figure it's one of those big comic book showdowns in an effort to grab more sales. It's dated as all hell, but it's sorta fun, but man, the seams really show in how the Archie creative team at the time couldn't figure out how to incorporate game elements in a meaningful way without resorting to pocket zone nonsense. I'm sorta surprised SEGA never said "no-no, 'zones' aren't other dimensions, except for the Special Zone," but... oh wait, SEGA in the mid-90s, never mind.

 

 

It's so bizarre. At this point in time, StC was running circles around StH in almost every way. They had their heads on straight and just made "zones" basically regions of Mobius -- kinda like countries, I guess? Maybe states? Provinces? But some kind of region on Mobius itelf (except for the Special Zone), not these weird pocket dimensions that StH went with. And I reckon Sega of Europe was even less interested in StC than Sega of America was in StH... though I may be wrong there. 

[Wittymations]

Like I said, fans can act that way, they don't have an image to hold. However, when it comes from someone in the business doing it back, it just sounds extremely unprofessional. Like I said, I know that "you're wrong" is referring to the printing -- said it in the last post. There's a dozen other ways the responder could have worded it.

 

Also all the exclamation marks don't help.

[Sonictrainer]

Ian's made a living picking up the scraps and leftovers that Sega leaves untapped and spindash's them into gold.  I think the the set of three ghosts fit right up that ally. I was supremely disappointed that they only got cameo status in Unleashed...

 

Man, could you imagine that lot as the antagonist's of a mini-arc? You've got the comic relief angle covered, the big bad dealt with via fusion and an interesting impress the girl subplot to tie it all together. I bet you could make an extremely entertaining couple of issues out of all that.

 

Plus we sorely need more art of Raa.

 

Wait, the ghosts had Official Names?

[Zaysho]

It's so bizarre. At this point in time, StC was running circles around StH in almost every way. They had their heads on straight and just made "zones" basically regions of Mobius -- kinda like countries, I guess? Maybe states? Provinces? But some kind of region on Mobius itelf (except for the Special Zone), not these weird pocket dimensions that StH went with. And I reckon Sega of Europe was even less interested in StC than Sega of America was in StH... though I may be wrong there.

Huh, I had no idea StC did it that way. Funny Archie is finally doing things like that (though I think later into Flynn's run in the old continuity they were sort of running with the idea). But back then, I think they sort of managed to write around it by making Cosmic Interstate and alternate dimensions zones, but even then, the idea of just what zones are in relation to the Archie universe was never consistent as I'm thinking about it. They flip-flopped a lot from what I remember. I know I joke a lot about how SEGA didn't care back then, but it sort of surprises me no one in their licensing department (since editorial at Archie obviously didn't give a shit) thought to define the idea. It's probably the one reason I appreciate how much more involved they are now, even if some of their mandates make me scratch my head at times.

 

Like I said, fans can act that way, they don't have an image to hold. However, when it comes from someone in the business doing it back, it just sounds extremely unprofessional. Like I said, I know that "you're wrong" is referring to the printing -- said it in the last post. There's a dozen other ways the responder could have worded it.

 

Also all the exclamation marks don't help.

In a way, I agree that maybe the editor (Scott Fulop*) could've worded it differently (perhaps "Don't worry, we're printing your letter right now!"), but I don't think it's that unprofessional, considering. I'd say they took to it pretty well, since the writer was being honest/upfront without being an ass about it.

* Oddly, I expected it was Gabrie, but issue #18 is a bit of ways off from his reign on the book. Not far enough, I might add.

[Wittymations]

Maybe, I see it more along the lines of professional blandness being the best route. "We regret to hear that you do not enjoy this artist's work."

[Delta Starfire]

Huh, I had no idea StC did it that way. Funny Archie is finally doing things like that (though I think later into Flynn's run in the old continuity they were sort of running with the idea). But back then, I think they sort of managed to write around it by making Cosmic Interstate and alternate dimensions zones, but even then, the idea of just what zones are in relation to the Archie universe was never consistent as I'm thinking about it. They flip-flopped a lot from what I remember. I know I joke a lot about how SEGA didn't care back then, but it sort of surprises me no one in their licensing department (since editorial at Archie obviously didn't give a shit) thought to define the idea. It's probably the one reason I appreciate how much more involved they are now, even if some of their mandates make me scratch my head at times.

 

I take it you haven't read StC then? It'd be worth your time, if you've got the time. I don't think you can buy it anywhere (except eBay, I'd guess), but you can torrent every single issue. It's interesting to compare the two books. In my experience of both, StC was vastly superior while they were both in print. However, since StC was cancelled, StH has steadily gotten better and better, to the point that it became significantly more enjoyable than StC at its best. And, curiously, a lot of ideas in StH today and in the recent past, are quite similar to StC back in the day. Indeed, the current format of StH since the reboot feels VERY old school StC. I'm not complaining. StC was the comic of my childhood. I like that its "spirit" can kinda live on this way. 

 

I will say this, if you do read StC be prepared for a massive drop in quality after #100. There are still good stories after that, but not nearly as many. The book's glory days were really between #8 and #100. And they adapted the games readily, not years later and out of order. And those adaptations were good... Plus... When Richard Elson drew the classic Death Egg, it was a thing of beauty...

 

 

Oh dear... I'm so sorry! I've fangirled all over this post! 

 

Ahem!

 

 

Maybe, I see it more along the lines of professional blandness being the best route. "We regret to hear that you do not enjoy this artist's work."

 

 

Do remember that the target audience are kids. Professional blandness is fine for anyone over twenty, but not kids. 

[Wittymations]

Do remember that the target audience are kids. Professional blandness is fine for anyone over twenty, but not kids. 

That's a bit dark material for kids. I honestly see the Archie comics more targeted towards teenagers.

 

Though, I'll be honest, how often do kids read the letters and responses? I mean, kids don't even really bother with credits.

[Delta Starfire]

That's a bit dark material for kids. I honestly see the Archie comics more targeted towards teenagers.

 

Though, I'll be honest, how often do kids read the letters and responses? I mean, kids don't even really bother with credits.

 

Oh, I don't know about that. My own experience is hardly data, but I always used to read the letters page in StC. 

 

Also, having occasion "dark" stuff doesn't mean it's not still for kids. 

 

Funny thing, actually, thinking back to StC! The term for fans was "Boomers". That's a strange coincidence, considering that was Rotor's name for the first few issues of StH -- and I must confess, I love the visual humour in the issue where he's suddenly called Rotor. Does anyone know why they changed his name?

[Wittymations]

Oh, I don't know about that. My own experience is hardly data, but I always used to read the letters page in StC. 

I suppose it's possible, well, has to be. But for the most part, kids I knew read the comics for the characters and story, couldn't care less about the people behind it. Understandable really. Later on, as they grow up, they may wonder who's doing this and that.

 

 

Also, having occasion "dark" stuff doesn't mean it's not still for kids.

Well, back then, probably not. Things seemed to change.

Lion King had murder, betrayal, tyranny and all that. It was still considered a "kids" movie. Today, that seemed to change. Even mentioning death almost feels like a taboo in a kids movie. Deeper plots feel like it.

 

I don't know why.

[Delta Starfire]

I suppose it's possible, well, has to be. But for the most part, kids I knew read the comics for the characters and story, couldn't care less about the people behind it. Understandable really. Later on, as they grow up, they may wonder who's doing this and that.

 

And your experience isn't data either, kiddo.

 

Well, back then, probably not. Things seemed to change.

Lion King had murder, betrayal, tyranny and all that. It was still considered a "kids" movie. Today, that seemed to change. Even mentioning death almost feels like a taboo in a kids movie. Deeper plots feel like it.

 

I don't know why.

 

Oh, I definitely disagree with that. I think kid's entertainment today deals with a lot more themes that it wouldn't have touched with a barge pole in the 90's, including death. Of course, it depends. There are gems in every era and things do seem to oscillate back and forth. 

[Wittymations]

Oh, I definitely disagree with that. I think kid's entertainment today deals with a lot more themes that it wouldn't have touched with a barge pole in the 90's, including death. Of course, it depends. There are gems in every era and things do seem to oscillate back and forth. 

Care to lay out a few examples? I suppose it's possible that I've missed these things. Last time I looked, dark elements in things I seen as "for kids" tend to have been rather dull.

 

Guess it doesn't help that there's this stigma that anything being "for kids" can be lame, because kids don't know any better. Something I heavily disagree with. There's a reason why a lot of Disney animations survived generations.

[Zaysho]

Going back to what I was saying about zones, I took out my Knuckles Archive #1, which has a map of Angel Island (then Floating Island) which was printed in Knuckles mini-series #1 (the Archives are all out of order with that stuff as the maps featured in the first mini-series are cut in between chapters of "The Dark Legion" mini-series). It's sorta funny that, in spite of all I was talking about how Archie treated zones as dimensions, Penders actually got it right for a single moment by referring to various "zones" on the Island as just regions or sections. Of course, this would be the only instance in the book, at the time, as he still often ran to the end with pocket dimension stuff, but I thought it was still interesting.

Here's the map, but it's a little small. I'll try to get a better shot later if I can.


 

I'd probably be less harsh on Archie's idea of "zones" if they could've nailed down just what the hell they were because what the various creators came up with was always inconsistent and made worse when they had to include game material into the mix. I think by Flynn's time, he just acknowledged the alternate universes, i.e. Moebius, Sol, and No-Zone to fit with the idea and largely did away with pocket zone stuff, save for the Dark Legion's home dimension, which became the Twilight Cage after Chronicles, and for the Special Zone.

 

*StC gushing snip*
 
Oh dear... I'm so sorry! I've fangirled all over this post! 
 
Ahem!

Haha, don't worry about it. The most of StC I've read (and I actually had CBR files of the complete run at some point and never got around to reading them at the time because college) was a Knuckles solo story in which he was dealing with some Marx Brothers knock-offs (something I'd expect from an American comic, actually). I don't have a strong opinion on the series right now, but I do like what I've seen of Elson's artwork. Knux's necklace is a little weird, but I think it's kind of a neat interpretation. I wish I had time to read the run, actually, but I've got a literal pile of other things to read that I think it'd be too long before I get around to it. One day, maybe. I would be interested in comparing the two runs.

Out of curiosity, what are some similarities you're seeing between Archie Sonic now and in recent years that are also in Fleetway's run?

On the subject of adaptations, I feel like Archie was always hurting to find ways to incorporate game stories, but always falling short because the world they themselves set up was practically incompatible with that material. In a way, I have to point a finger at SEGA because they allowed the book to take so many bizarre turns to the point that asking Archie to even use their games in those stories was always a pointless exercise and felt forced (Sonic Adventure being the biggest offender IMO). I suppose it says more about how interested Archie's creative team for the book were in the Sonic property altogether than anything.

 

That said, I think that was a strength Flynn brought to the table since he managed to converge both worlds (pre-reboot) to at least allow for the possibility of more SEGA!Sonic elements without directly contradicting Archie's way of doing things, and things that couldn't quite fit got the "Another Time and Place" treatment until there was time to make it happen in the book proper.
 

Oh, I definitely disagree with that. I think kid's entertainment today deals with a lot more themes that it wouldn't have touched with a barge pole in the 90's, including death. Of course, it depends. There are gems in every era and things do seem to oscillate back and forth.

Death in kids' media is always so weirdly handled these days I feel. There's a lot of awkward dancing around the use of words like "die" or "kill" unless there are VERY specific circumstances to justify it, but even then, they try their best to not use those words from what I've seen. Even in the darkest episode of 4Kids' TMNT cartoon, "Same As It Never Was" the only time anybody says "dead" was when Future!Mikey exclaims that everyone thought Donatello was dead when he got lost in a time warp. They didn't even talk about Future!Splinter being dead, instead cutting the sentence short ("Splinter is...").

The subject itself doesn't seem taboo, and things have come a long way since the days of, say, Saban needing to write character deaths in Dragon Ball Z as "going to the next dimension" (which was oddly not entirely inaccurate for DBZ...), but there's an odd avoidance of stating it outright. Considering it's always bad guys that talk about killing in kids' cartoons, you'd think they could get away with it...
 

Funny thing, actually, thinking back to StC! The term for fans was "Boomers". That's a strange coincidence, considering that was Rotor's name for the first few issues of StH -- and I must confess, I love the visual humour in the issue where he's suddenly called Rotor. Does anyone know why they changed his name?

I get the impression the "Boomer" name was never final and they just changed it when Sonic SatAM hit mainstream. They were working off early production materials and had to keep with a monthly schedule. Likewise with Sally's more common design being use from #16 onwards. Though it wouldn't surprise me if Penders or one of them came up with a convoluted reason for the name change. He decided to explain Sally's color change (Knuckles #29) or how she got her freakin' vest of all things ("In Your Face!")... Thankfully those examples are only single panels, but it's no less silly.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Zaysho

[Your Vest Friend]

I'm just going to copy this italian dish here.

 

Update on "Lost Hedgehog Tales" - thought of two new chapters to add, so second draft is in the works.

He decided to explain Sally's color change (Knuckles #29) or how she got her freakin' vest of all things ("In Your Face!")... Thankfully those examples are only single panels, but it's no less silly.

 

It may have been short, but it became a big in-universe justification as to why Sally's redesign was the worst thing ever to happen by people who didn't like it. It was pretty daft...although I guess not as daft as Antoine's coat debacle.

[Tenko]

Random Penders stuff that I thought would fit better here for discussion purposes. He's mentioning on Twitter that in the early 2000's Spaz and himself were working on a Archie Sonic comic reboot in the Super Specials that got canceled. I know I'm not as up to date as a lot of you guys with your behind the scenes info etc but was this a well known thing?

[Your Vest Friend]

Oh, and there's also this little spoiler posted by Paul.

[Zaysho]

Random Penders stuff that I thought would fit better here for discussion purposes. He's mentioning on Twitter that in the early 2000's Spaz and himself were working on a Archie Sonic comic reboot in the Super Specials that got canceled. I know I'm not as up to date as a lot of you guys with your behind the scenes info etc but was this a well known thing?

 

First I'd heard of it. I dunno if that has anything to do with some Spaz sketches that were published in issue #115. Of course, this is heading toward when I wasn't reading the book anymore for a time, but I don't recall it ever getting a mention. Spaz, in the book, mentions them throwing around ideas like an alternate book featuring a heavier "manga" influence among other things, but everything else seems like it was for the book proper (there were even sketches for the "Knuckles 20 Years Later" that never happened).

[Echidna Adventurer CC14]

Just got SU 65 in the mail, so have a couple peeks!

Expect full spoilers in a bit. Also, guess who made a cameo during a certain pin-headed activist's trip through the time stream in Mega Man 38?

Quite interesting. Never thought they'd reference it again in a story.

[DarkLight]

Cool to see Worlds Collide mentioned in MM. But I'm not sure how to feel about Charmy being the one to name Chip. I guess they are going to skip the Sonic/Chip dynamic afterall.

[Vertekins]

Oh SHIT, I totally called that. That Chip's bond with Sonic is seemingly getting disregarded even though it was such an important part of Unleashed.

[Mauro Fonseca]

There goes all my enthusiasm gone.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Or maybe you guys are completely jumping the gun over the dynamic being throw away when this is Chip's second issue he's in and he still has yet to meet Sonic?

 

Give it time before we start assuming things are getting thrown out. We have who knows how many issues in this arc, and they could meet up and start the dynamic at a later date.

 

Geez.

[Big Panda]

Chip's naming was...really, really lame. I mean, I can tolerate how it's different from Unleashed, but it could've been written better. This just seemed lazy.

[Soniman]

Oh SHIT, I totally called that. That Chip's bond with Sonic is seemingly getting disregarded even though it was such an important part of Unleashed.

 

Jumping the gun as CSS said, I bet Chip and Sonic will meet up eventually and the Chaotix were merely the first ones to find hmi.

 

Chip's naming was...really, really lame. I mean, I can tolerate how it's different from Unleashed, but it could've been written better. This just seemed lazy.

 

As lazy as Sonic just randomly comming up with the name despite no previous foreshadowing???