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Amy wasn't raised by Sally, she's only been with them for a year at BEST before her physical change, and if anything Sally was a thorn in her side for joining the freedom fighters, and blamed it on trying to keep her away from Sonic, while they reward Tails to be a freedom fighter despite his reckless decision to go solo. Tails may've faced more perils, but they chose to make him a freedom fighter right after doing something that could've gotten him killed.

I'll grant you the stuff about Amy...But wasn't the point of the Tails Mini-series that Tails grew up a bit? I mean yes, he was recklessly putting his own life in danger at first, but wasn't the point of that mini that he learned(Well, re-learned, I guess)about friendship and teamwork through meeting and fighting alongside the Downunda Freedom Fighters?

Edited by BlazeyBakeneko

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Again the accusations that I have something against gay people. I'm giving up on this sorry.

You come across as having something against gay people by actively campaigning for one type of person to be included, then actively complaining about another (when that other has only a tiny exposure, no less!). If that's not anti-gay sentiment, I don't know what is.

Either you're anti-gay, or you actively don't want to progress forward from the dark ages.

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Oh, so shall we talk about the slave trade and why not everyone agrees with interracial marriages just because Nate Morgan is black, hmm? Boo-hoo, kids gonna be corrupted by an incredibly brief insinuation that a character is gay.

But if I read it I might catch the gay. Next thing you know I will be singing show tunes and decorating houses.

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But if I read it I might catch the gay. Next thing you know I will be singing show tunes and decorating houses.

Robotnik"Snively! Go to the Great Forest, and don't come back until every last Mobian is FABULOUS!"

But in all seriousness, that was an excellent bit of satire you just made.^_^

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This has already happened to me. The moment I saw a character casually insinuated to be homosexual, my mind began to eat itself from the inside at the horrific implication that these people might be quietly living amongst us, and if we didn't exploit their most intimate secrets to the world, we might never know!

Of course, I immediately demanded that my strong anti-gay sentiments be taken into account and that at least one other character be shown to be repulsed by the fact that this fellow was bumping uglies with, ugh, another fellow! It was important that there be a major plot point here so that everyone could see that being gay actually has a huge influence on everyone, instead of merely being a single unobtrusive trait.

Of course, by then, I had already caught The Gay. Alas, too late for me... but please fight on in my name so that others may continue to keep their pages clean and free from this evil plague threatening to... gasp... let kids know that it's no big deal to be gay!

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This has already happened to me. The moment I saw a character casually insinuated to be homosexual, my mind began to eat itself from the inside at the horrific implication that these people might be quietly living amongst us, and if we didn't exploit their most intimate secrets to the world, we might never know!

Of course, I immediately demanded that my strong anti-gay sentiments be taken into account and that at least one other character be shown to be repulsed by the fact that this fellow was bumping uglies with, ugh, another fellow! It was important that there be a major plot point here so that everyone could see that being gay actually has a huge influence on everyone, instead of merely being a single unobtrusive trait.

Of course, by then, I had already caught The Gay. Alas, too late for me... but please fight on in my name so that others may continue to keep their pages clean and free from this evil plague threatening to... gasp... let kids know that it's no big deal to be gay!

Hee hee hee.:D

The sooner people stop treating homosexuality like it's an abomination against nature(Instead of something completely normal that been around for thousands of years, just behind closed doors), the better.

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I am thoroughly confused. What the HELL does that have to do with anything? Also I am a girl O.o FAIL.

No what's "Fail" is that you can't see homosexuality as a liberal issue considering you are pro beastiality...AND a lesbian. I'm quite shocked really. That doesn't actually help you. By conservative standards homosexuality was considered a disease. The more progressive standard is that it is natural and biological.You need to understand that politics consist of "people" and therefore "traits" people have can be considered progressive or conservative, and can thus be embraced by a political party. People who politically consider themselves conservative affiliate with more traditional human traits/behaviors/etc. whereas people who consider themselves more liberal associate with less traditional trais and behaviors in society

And attitudes like yours are exactly why. If you make a big deal about a character's sexual persuasion then of COURSE people are going to be ruffled, feeling like it's being forced down their throat.

Seriously, most of the kids and people reading this book are comming into the book with or without their own biases that come from their parents, the media, social institutions (where kids play the "are you gay" game) and so on. They're not getting ruffled JUST because this book is telling them to. Secondly I think you are missing the point. If say, Mighty and Ray are holding hands in Echidnanopolis and an echidna makes a face or says something nasty it doesn't mean we're dissuading or persuading people to be "ruffled" and hateful towards the gay experience, but, just like women's issues, be aware these problems exist. It wouldn't be any more than we expect them to be "ruffled" when Nate had juice poured down his back for being an overlander. It is simply the portrayl of the experience for better or for worse. Not pretending it doesn't exist. And I don't mean just for Rotor, I mean for future characters that might be portrayed gay in the future.

People need to be shown that gay people are exactly the same as straight people in everything but who they are physically attracted to.

I'm not saying they're not equal as people, but I'm saying they're going to through different obstacles traditional couples face.Thats like saying female social issues in the book should not be touched on because females are equal, when the issue is more or less to portray the femal e expereince in ways females can relate to, not demean them as individuals . We are, just like gays are, defined by the many struggles in life we have. Even if for no other reason it gives us more strgnth than more privledged people have. Even if the Mobian society was accepting towards the gay issue, the same problem with Sally being too distant from women's issues would become a problem for people with gay issues but on a much more broader scale because it's the whole society.

Also, here's what's funny. A few people in this thread have been complaining that there's a lack of equality because there are tomboys but not more feminine girls. Yet those SAME people are ALSO complaining because a character was shown as gay. What utter hypocrisy. Sure, let's make sure the character types that YOU want represented are there... but God forbid they show a character who has a trait you DON'T have a preference for!

I'm not speaking on behalf of preference, rather than practicality. Number one, this book is in the CRITICAL low numbers for them to risk the readers, and I personally could hold out on something like this issue until the numbers stabilize. It's not like Marvel or DC where they could risk lesbian and gay couples without worrying over the readerbase. Number two, If anyone's the hypocrite...weren't you the one bawwing about Sally being possibly transgender and thereby being gay with Sonic?

Edited by Viuely

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Speaking of Nate Morgan, is anyone else convinced that his design was inspired by Morgan Freeman?

... As a midget? He looks like a dwarfed Morgan Freeman, and let's not forget the name coincidence.

Edited by Stretchy Werewolf

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No what's "Fail" is that you can't see homosexuality os a liberal issue considering you are pro beastiality...AND a

O_o

Who...who was talking about bestiality? No one said anything about bestiality! Not Flyboy, not me, not anyone!

What's going on?;_;

Edited by BlazeyBakeneko

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No what's "Fail" is that you can't see homosexuality os a liberal issue considering you are pro beastiality...AND a lesbian. That doesn't actually help you. By conservative standards homosexuality was considered a disease. The more progressive standard is that it is natural and biological.You need to understand that politics consist of "people" and therefore "traits" people have can be considered progressive or conservative, and can thus be embraced by a political party.

Excuse me?! That is out of line. I am NOT "pro-bestiality". I am also bi-sexual, and so therefore not technically a lesbian.

You are an idiot and an incredibly offensive one at that.

If anyone's the hypocrite...weren't you the one bawwing about Sally being possibly transgender and thereby being gay with Sonic?

... how about no? I merely found it offensive that anyone would think that Sally would have to be transgender simply because she is not feminine. She is obviously NOT transgender. If she actually was written to deliberately be transgender I would not have a problem with it at all. I have a problem with stereotypes, not sexual identity.

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... how about no? I merely found it offensive that anyone would think that Sally would have to be transgender simply because she is not feminine. She is obviously NOT transgender. If she actually was written to deliberately be transgender I would not have a problem with it at all. I have a problem with stereotypes, not sexual identity.

I agree that Sally is not transgender. If she were, I'd imagine she'd have been uncomfortable enough in her present body to have asked Rotor or Tails to invent something to alter it for her, by now.

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She clearly wasn't written to be transgender, and I was offended by the idea that a girl can't still happily be a girl despite having boyish traits. It's a very discriminatory view to take and makes me wonder if those bandying that view around will only be happy with Sally as a female lead if she's chained to a kitchen sink peeling potatoes with one hand and painting her toenails with the other.

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She clearly wasn't written to be transgender, and I was offended by the idea that a girl can't still happily be a girl despite having boyish traits. It's a very discriminatory view to take and makes me wonder if those bandying that view around will only be happy with Sally as a female lead if she's chained to a kitchen sink peeling potatoes with one hand and painting her toenails with the other.

Yeah, I'm quite surprised that the people holding that view seem to want to stuff her in the kitchen, especially since they appear to be female themselves.O_o

Cooking and grooming are not useful skills for an action book.^_^;;

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Well, although it seems like there's a fair amount of support (three constant posters) for these anti-progressive views, bear in mind that Miko, Picchi and Viuely are sisters. Sure, if they can use facts about me and my lifestyle to de-validate my view, then I can do the same and say that it's little wonder that they have something of a hivemind going on here.

I'm sure there are some people who agree with some or even much of what they say, which is perfectly natural, but really it's the sisters three who are the only ones with these full extreme views, I think.

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Well, although it seems like there's a fair amount of support (three constant posters) for these anti-progressive views, bear in mind that Miko, Picchi and Viuely are sisters. Sure, if they can use facts about me and my lifestyle to de-validate my view, then I can do the same and say that it's little wonder that they have something of a hivemind going on here.

I'm sure there are some people who agree with some or even much of what they say, which is perfectly natural, but really it's the sisters three who are the only ones with these full extreme views, I think.

Yeah I'd say you're right, that it's only the three of them who hold that specific mindset, even if others agree with them on certain elements of it.

As for me, I don't need Sally to be girly, and I don't personally feel that "girly" has to mean "not a fighter," anyway, even though the sisters seem to be saying that. Amy, Bunnie, Blaze, and Rouge all seem quite feminine to me(Even if Blaze has her tomboyish side), and they are all perfectly capable fighters.

Edited by BlazeyBakeneko

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Aye. Sally is absolutely fine as a tomboy and a good female role-model. The two are not mutually exclusive. She's clearly got a feminine side, anyhow. Feminine wiles, rawr. Who really cares much about looking good after all the crap the FFs have been through, anyway? :\ I imagine she might act a fair bit more feminine if the war was over and she didn't have to be such a tough girl anymore. But she'd still be a tomboy even then.

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I imagine she might act a fair bit more feminine if the war was over and she didn't have to be such a tough girl anymore. But she'd still be a tomboy even then.

If the war was over, I could see her as the type who could have a great time winning a martial arts competition while dressed in ribbons and bows.^^

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I'd be happy to see her put aside her ruggedness to go shopping with Amy in celebration of the liberation of Mobius. I think Sally probably would like the opportunity to feel pretty at least once in a while. I just don't think it's really all that important to her in the middle of a war time. She's not a girly-girl, but she's even less of one under pressure.

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I'd be happy to see her put aside her ruggedness to go shopping with Amy in celebration of the liberation of Mobius. I think Sally probably would like the opportunity to feel pretty at least once in a while. I just don't think it's really all that important to her in the middle of a war time. She's not a girly-girl, but she's even less of one under pressure.

Yeah, it'd be really nice to see more of Sal relaxing like that. It's nice fanfic fodder, if nothing else.^^

On a similar note, I thought she looked stunning in the outfit she wore in the recent "30 years later" story arc, even though I didn't care for the actual story much. Made her look quite queenly.:3 Kind of nice that she had a happy hubby and cute kids so had more of a reason to be "domestic," and presumably a chance to actually enjoy it.:3

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd love to see a "what if" future story that isn't interrupted by some huge catastrophe, that feels more like an actual peacetime.^^ I know that probably can't or won't happen, but I'm a dreamer sometimes.^^

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Excuse me?! That is out of line. I am NOT "pro-bestiality". I am also bi-sexual, and so therefore not technically a lesbian.

You are an idiot and an incredibly offensive one at that.

As for the beastiality thing, in the SonElise topic, I DID ask if you'd have sex with a dog or whatever and you were like no but because you had a girlfriend. So that'd lead one to assume that if you didn't have your girlfriend you'd be ok with having sex with a dog. I think that's where it comes from. People who are pro beastiality are not on the conservative side, and would be more liberal/progressive. She's saying how do you not understand given how much conservatives bash both concepts (a girl liking a girl and a girl liking a dog) and not get the idea it's a progressive/liberal idea? It really wasn't about throwing darts outta nowhere, if that what you thought.I don't think she worded what she said in a way that made it clear how this was incredibly relevant however, and did tell her when I read it, that maybe she might want to change how that sounded.

... how about no? I merely found it offensive that anyone would think that Sally would have to be transgender simply because she is not feminine.

Yes but femininity is what helps defines "female" in a gender sense, a person picking which set of gender traits expresses them more. As you've just admitted, Sally is not very feminine. Eh, she's got some things here and there depending on the writer, but even guys will have at least few feminine qualities as well. Sally doesn't readily identify with much in the way of femininity and is very disconnected from women's issues because she's been brought up to see herself the way a guy is more than likely able to see himself, and will therefore be able to readily identify with him more in that regard. So I see little reason to see her as a girl in terms of gender. Because femininity helps to define the female gender. It's not purely a matter of what Sally's got working down south for the winter. I think girls that are tomboys like I said, still have a good number of characteristics that are feminine that they greatly associate with to the extent they see themselves as more girly than masculine. For those who don't, transgenderism is a relatively new concept in terms of mainstream coverage and many cases still LACKS coverage. Many people have been still pigeonholed into being masculine or feminine based on their sex, and still do. So even if people say they're not the opposite gender despite having no deep connection with gender typically associated with their sex doesn't mean that's their REAL gender. It's like saying a person unwilling to accept they like the same sex doesn't suddenly make them "straight." Therefore I find it quite odd the notion that it's somehow offensive of me to call tomboys who specifically lack a deep connection with a feminine side that'd make them associate with a feminine gender guys in terms of gender. If that's what they are, then why be offended? You keep saying "attitudes this and that" on our end prevents social progress but that's exactly what your doing. By persistently implying tomboys like Sally, who have a much stronger connection with their masculine side than feminine side must be girls despite what's inside you are preventing people from having a casual relationship between their sex and their gender. You yourself even said:

You are incredibly sexist if you honestly think that Sally is characterised as a 'man'. I'm sorry, but the only thing that would make her an actual man would be if she was genetically 'male'.

Knowing full well there are people on this board who have a stronger association with a specific gender unassociated with their sex and therefore, that sex =/= gender.

She is obviously NOT transgender. If she actually was written to deliberately be transgender I would not have a problem with it at all. I have a problem with stereotypes, not sexual identity.

Yeah well, defining gender often works by figuring out how strongly you associate with generalities. Which is the same way it works when deciding which culture you associate with more if you come from a multi-ethnic family or a minoritity group. It's not saying you don't have characteristics of other cultures in you, it's saying you have one that you associate with more. I don't think many people would deliberately write a transgendered individual because most people don't have much understanding of what a transgendered inidvidual is, and can't get their heads out of the sex=gender mindset. So they just write whatever. It's like calling a girl straight despite the fact she's constantly gravitating on some ocassions to other girls and really likes it. It may not have been your intention to illustrate her as bisexual, but it doesn't mean she's straight. It doesn't really change the fact that if Sally's a guy inside, then Sonic would technically be gay. Because for many transgendered individuals, they still consider themselves gay if their gender is female, their body is male, and they like girls. Because sex is more complex than wanting a specific body part (and when it comes to Mobians, they don't even have any privates). For many people it's a form of bonding, it's intimacy and an emotional connection. So the personal characteristics of the individual, that including their masculinity and femininity are going to be necessary to evaluate when considering your sexuality.

Well, although it seems like there's a fair amount of support (three constant posters) for these anti-progressive views, bear in mind that Miko, Picchi and Viuely are sisters. Sure, if they can use facts about me and my lifestyle to de-validate my view, then I can do the same and say that it's little wonder that they have something of a hivemind going on here.

Ok Flyboy, I don't mean to be offensive getting really sick of the topic diverting into an adhom soap box and possibly worse yet, some kind of persecution complex.

1. You're not the queen of being progressive. As a matter of fact your views on gender and sex and the relationship between the two is very ANTI progressive.

2. Not everything that is progressive/liberal is good. You yourself were just spouting offense over the idea of being associated with beastiality when beastiality=bad has been a very conservatively held belief.

All this "Youre way of thinking is responsible for injustice blah blah blah" and all the things everyone's doing that's like that is really unnecessary and doesn't further discussion. While I will clarify my points to further discussion, I'm not catoring to a soap box.Bashing the morality of others doesn't make a point more or less valid and I say that to everyone, really. Guys really, what does so-and-so being progressive or conservative have ANYTHING to do with the topic. And as an individual, while I will on many ocassions see eye to eye on things, other times I don't. For example I'm really interested in the character Bunnie Rabot, while Viu sees her as an unecessary and possibly boring addition. Only address all as having a belief when all have vouched agreement.

Who really cares much about looking good after all the crap the FFs have been through, anyway?

People who'd be persecuted based on how they look? Even within the context of Knothole, there were signs of people doing this if Bunnie was any indication. So you can't say Archie was making this hypothetical world where these problems don't exist

Edited by Miko

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Ok Flyboy, I don't mean to be offensive getting really sick of the topic diverting into an adhom soap box. All this

"Youre way of thinking is responsible for blah blah blah" and all the things everyone's doing that's like that is really unnecessary and doesn't further discussion. Bashing the morality of others doesn't make a point more or less valid and I say that to everyone, really. As for the beastiality thing, in the SonElise topic, I DID ask if you'd have sex with a dog or whatever and you were like no but because you had a girlfriend. So that'd lead one to assume that if you didn't have your girlfriend you'd be ok with having sex with a dog. I think that's where it comes from. It really wasn't about throwing darts outta nowhere, if that what you thought..

I honestly feel like there is still some context missing from that statement.

And I don't see how this relates to discussion about Sally, or Rotor, since there are no human/Mobian relationships in the comic, anyway. Unless we count the Iron King and Queen as having a romance together, but no one was talking about them in the context of these debates, anyway.

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Well, even if Mobians aren't human, they can have the characteristics humans do, and it's necessary to make them human to be relateable characters. We also know that they have a sizeable amount of human DNA and comparable intellect.

I think Sally probably would like the opportunity to feel pretty at least once in a while.

But Sally's never been one to care about her appearance even during the more drastic changes to her fur. She even called caring about it shallow. Such writing would be inconsistent.

Edited by Miko

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Well, even if Mobians aren't human, they can don't have the characteristics humans do, and it's necessary to make them human to be relateable characters. We also know that they have a sizeable amount of human DNA and comparable intellect.

I agree with this, but this isn't what I was arguing against. I was saying that bestiality is not relevant since we were not discussing relationships between humans and non-humans. Even still, Mobians are, as you noted, half-human, so it wouldn't even be bestiality at all.

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I dont think that was bruought up for that, that was supposed to be related to some discussion of politics that was I'm going to guess supposed to somehow be related to this thread. I don't get the whole conservative liberal thing either of them were talking about which I guess led to a discussion on politics and the whole sexuality thing. And after a good day of puking and crapping everything out my body, I've no interest in figuring out what they're talking about which is why I'm annoyed Flyboy was quick to associate me with it. I mean maybe what they were talking about was a legitimate discussion that ultimately lead to something stupid, but the most I'll do is clarify what I can. I see this issue is probably way beyond me for the time being and possibly even this topic.

Edited by Miko

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I don't get the whole conservative liberal thing they were talking about which I guess led to a discussion on politics and the whole sexuality thing. After a good day of puking and crapping everything out my body, I've no interest in figuring out what they're talking about which is why I'm annoyed Flyboy was quick to associate me with it. I mean maybe what they were talking about was a legitimate discussion that ultimately lead to something stupid, but the most I'll do is clarify what I can. I see this issue is probably way beyond me for the time being and possibly even this topic.

My apologies. I was overly harsh, and looking back none of that stuff was your fault. I guess I was to quick to think of you and your sisters as a unit.

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