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Can anybody summarize what's been going on today in a way that's relevant to the characters? No political mumbo jumbo please, I'm too sick to sort through that kinda thing today.Though ill probably read it over later anyhow. I'll also add for the final time I'm NOT saying all tomboys are guys when it comes to gender. I'm saying tomboys without a strong feminine identity that'd make them associate more with being female, are male in terms of gender. And I don't see that as derogatory. I think understanding that is actually very liberating. So I don't think I'm being deragatory to Sally or any tomboys like her when I say this. Why should your or anyone else's gender be defined by your privates? To me that's what sexism is. To say you must be a certain way because your privates are designed to confine you to being certain way and associating you with a specific identity. Someone with a penis can't be female and someone with a vagina can't be male.

But really I don't really blame society for being that ignorant. I don't tolerate it, but I understand why all of it is happening. It's ingrained even in our language to condition us into polarizing ourselves based on our privates. Our language doen't make it obvious the difference between reffering one's gender and one's sex. If you say you're female people assume your gender is female AND that you have a vagina. And actually if we used words that reffered to our gender and not our sex, I think we'd be making a world where people focus more on the intimacy between individuals more than they do now. So yes, I don't feel bad about my views on Sally. I think it makes the character more interesting too.

Edited by Miko

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Ok stop stop stop stop STOP! How in the blue HELL did we get from walls of text over a damn title to walls of text laced with personal attacks about homosexuality and bestiality? Damn people, if this were Sonic Retro, I'd be trashing posts like a madman and warning people out the ass. but since I have no powers here, I'm just gonna request can we PLEASE take this massive derail somewhere else?

Damn, I don't even know what the topic was pre derail X_X

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I don't have much to say right now except that I feel the need to defend myself against a couple of things said against me:

1) Allegations of being pro-bestiality. I am NOT. This was a completely irrelevant attack on my character and a low blow at that. My view on bestiality is that it is sex between a human (a sentient being) and an animal (a non-sentient being - therefore unable to consent by ethical standards). I never once said that I would have sex with a dog if I didn't have a girlfriend. What I actually said was that I am NOT attracted to dogs. I also said that I would not see an ethical problem with sex with a dog, or consider it bestiality, IF the dog had sentience and the intelligence of an average human being, therefore able to consent. I would not do it myself.

In brief, to say that I said I would have sex with a dog if I didn't have a girlfriend is a blatant and disgusting lie. Also has nothing to do with this thread, kthx.

2) That being a lesbian devalues my arguments somehow and automatically politicises me. I am bisexual, yes, but that does not in any way devalue my opinion about the inclusion of gay people in media. As a bisexual person, I actively understand that being gay is something as natural and unavoidable as being born black or with blonde hair. I do not understand how my view is less valid than the views of those who are afraid their kids will be exposed to something horrible by seeing a gay person in a comic. I do not see how my view is in any way inferior to that.

And with that cleared up, I will ask only ONCE that comments about my own sexuality and sexual preferences be left OUT of any future discussion in this thread. They are personal attacks and will not be tolerated.

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How come Eggman had all these super devices but never cared enough to just go to the forest and level the entire area.

Archie Robotnik is self-aware of his role as a comic character; He's even complained multiple times about not appearing often enough, and in issue 25 even steals a bag of Archie Comics fanmail (One of which was written by Amy). It is my guess that Eggman is as genre-savvy as his predecessor (As he shares his history up to a point) and knows that leveling the forest would end the comic, thus ending his role and chance to hog the spotlight.

Or for those of you who simply want to discredit the early-issue wackiness- Maybe Eggman thinks this would be too easy, and simply wants to have fun beating Sonic on even footing. Overkill takes all the thrill out of it, y'know?

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I think he just enjoys it too much to end it so easily. So much more fun to draw it out and cause as much prolonged havoc as possible, no? If he just flattened everyone in a snap, there'd be no one left to fear him and reinforce his self-image as a powerful man.

I mean, anyone who's played Sims knows that you could theoretically kill off all your Sims at any time. But those who wanna play ultimate God of Destruction would rather toy with their prey than just kill 'em all off in one go. In order to be a successful terrorist overlord, you need people around to terrorize, after all.

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Oddly enough, the Mike Gallagher era of the comic is my favorite. It didn't use to be, as I used to shun it for its silliness and fourth wall breaking. But , to me, at least, it seemed like the most logical, internally consistent era of the comic, mainly because the continuity was more episodic and finite, and more prone to resolving problems than letting them dangle for years. And when called too, Gallagher could write decent emotion into a script amongst the jokes, as seen in the "Mecha Madness" arc.

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Oh for crying out LOUD!

You come across as having something against gay people by actively campaigning for one type of person to be included, then actively complaining about another (when that other has only a tiny exposure, no less!). If that's not anti-gay sentiment, I don't know what is.

Either you're anti-gay, or you actively don't want to progress forward from the dark ages.

Gay people are gay people. It's just a preference about their sexual orientation. No one makes a character heterosexual as a characterization point, so why would anyone do the same for a gay one? Can’t you see that you’re giving importance to being gay when there’s none and that’s a prejudice in itself?

I'm tired of people using the token gay / black / <insert minority here> character this way as an excuse for being liberal or open-minded, and from the looks of it, you can't see the difference either.

I have nothing against gay people. I do have problems against people who can't accept they are normal and instead point it out like "omg that's so awesome" like you did before. If you can't see the difference, then you're just as prejudiced as your usual gay hater.

Hee hee hee.:D

The sooner people stop treating homosexuality like it's an abomination against nature(Instead of something completely normal that been around for thousands of years, just behind closed doors), the better.

And the sooner people start treating homsexuality like if it's nothing special to begin with, the better will they be integrated as a normal part of society.

This fucking ridiculous. I bet the majority of you never dealt with someone gay and their problems to begin with, if you have this outraging opinion. All they want is to blend in, not be known by people as "that gay person" no matter how accepting these same people are. They want to be known by whom they are, not their sexual preference. That’s why I’m against making a character gay for characterization purposes.

Edited by redmenace

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Oh for crying out LOUD!

Calm down, dear.

Gay people are gay people. It's just a preference about their sexual orientation. No one makes a character heterosexual as a characterization point, so why would anyone do the same for a gay one? Can’t you see that you’re giving importance to being gay when there’s none and that’s a prejudice in itself?

So, I guess Nate Morgan should have been white, then? let's not have any new animals, either. Diversity is the same as giving unwarranted attention to minority groups, apparently.

I'm tired of people using the token gay / black / <insert minority here> character this way as an excuse for being liberal or open-minded, and from the looks of it, you can't see the difference either.

Actually, I don't understand the political agenda thing either. I don't think this is an issue of liberalism or open-mindedness at all. Just an interesting character point. Character A is black, characters B and C like Chaos Chola, and character D is gay. It's all good.

I have nothing against gay people. I do have problems against people who can't accept they are normal and instead point it out like "omg that's so awesome" like you did before. If you can't see the difference, then you're just as prejudiced as your usual gay hater.

I said it was awesome because I liked that Rotor could be gay. I don't think that makes him special or not normal. I just like being able to identify with characters.

This whole topic was all about needing feminine girls as someone to relate to for girls who are like that, so why is it wrong or bad for me to personally like/want a gay character in it?

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Calm down, dear.

Calm down? After being called an anti-gay when I'm anything but? I'm for gay couples ADOPTING. Of course I'm pissed off! Did you had anyone close to you going through all of these problems? You had someone that suffered more with people that were just as "pro-gay" as you are than open haters? I bet you haven't, because otherwise your position would not be "omg Rotor is gay, that is so awesome!" because that's such a "interesting character point!". Maybe all your experience was two girls sharing a kiss in a drunken party and then admiting they liked it or something.

So, I guess Nate Morgan should have been white, then? let's not have any new animals, either. Diversity is the same as giving unwarranted attention to minority groups, apparently.

I didn't put black there as a reference to Nate Morgan.

Actually, I don't understand the political agenda thing either. I don't think this is an issue of liberalism or open-mindedness at all. Just an interesting character point. Character A is black, characters B and C like Chaos Chola, and character D is gay. It's all good.

It is political, since gay rights are seen as a liberal wing choice and republicans, who are traditionalists, are against them. It's not that hard to undertand at all.

There we go, you say being gay and black is interesting. It's not! It shouldn't be! And that's where you're wrong and where you sound just as prejudiced as you usual gay hater!

I said it was awesome because I liked that Rotor could be gay. I don't think that makes him special or not normal. I just like being able to identify with characters.

You just said the quote above, it's an interesting character point. It's not. Being gay shouldn't be more interesting than being brunette or blonde. Being gay shouldn't be more interesting than being heterosexual. And this is where your prejudice shines, even though you're supportive of gay people. Or you're just naive and have never dealt with the problems of one.

This whole topic was all about needing feminine girls as someone to relate to for girls who are like that, so why is it wrong or bad for me to personally like/want a gay character in it?

There is nothing wrong for you to like such a character. It is wrong if you think that is an interesting character point, as if it defines who they are or makes them more "interesting" or less. It doesn't, it shouldn't, and it's prejudiced to think otherwise.

Edited by redmenace

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It's interesting to ME because I am gay (bisexual) and have been in a relationship with another girl for 10 years and currently live with her and am engaged to her, so don't you dare imply that all I know about homosexuality is "two girls drunkenly kissing at a party".

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It is political, since gay rights are seen as a liberal wing choice and republicans, who are traditionalists, are against them. It's not that hard to undertand at all.

Just because political groups have a vested interest in the debate over the the rights of homosexuals doesn't make homosexuality in and of itself a political issue.

I can put a gay character in my story and not be making a political statement. That's not hard to understand, I hope.

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It's interesting to ME because I am gay (bisexual) and have been in a relationship with another girl for 10 years and currently live with her and am engaged to her, so don't you dare imply that all I know about homosexuality is "two girls drunkenly kissing at a party".

Don't you dare. Like you dared doing the same to me? Dur Dur Dur.

And quite frankly, you don't act like you do. Or do you like to be known as "the lesbian" no matter how accepting other people are? Do you like people saying "oh, she's the brunette/blonde there who is lesbia. I expect you don't. I expect you finally get my point.

Just because political groups have a vested interest in the debate over the the rights of homosexuals doesn't make homosexuality in and of itself a political issue.

I can put a gay character in my story and not be making a political statement. That's not hard to understand, I hope.

That was what I was battling about. Making him gay or not doesn't make the comic any less or more liberal, which was something someone said in the thread. Can't remember who anymore though.

Edited by redmenace

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That was what I was battling about. Making him gay or not doesn't make the comic any less or more liberal, which was something someone said in the thread. Can't remember who anymore though.

Okay?

One person claiming a character's homosexuality is meant to be a political statement doesn't mean this was the writer's intent or the general fan perception.

That said, as someone who does support gay rights, I'm all for the inclusion of this portrayal in the comic because it sends a very nonstereotypical image; It shows a gay character as a normal person, like anyone else. Political or not (And I don't think it is), I think that's a good thing.

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Or do you like to be known as "the lesbian" no matter how accepting other people are? Do you like people saying "oh, she's the brunette/blonde there who is lesbia. I expect you don't. I expect you finally get my point.

Of course I wouldn't like to be known only as "the lesbian". But I certainly wouldn't care if it came out in casual conversation as any random fact about a person might.

What happened in the comic, I'm told, is that an echidna character was introduced and implied to be Rotor's partner. That in itself is not an unusual type of thing to come out at all. It's not like someone held up a flashing arrow saying "GAY!" and then forced Rotor to be known as "The Gay One" forever more. However, there is nothing wrong with being known to be gay and I was pleased that such a thing was acknowledged as something that is okay to be talked about in passing conversation or by nuance.

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Speaking of Nate Morgan, is anyone else convinced that his design was inspired by Morgan Freeman?

... As a midget? He looks like a dwarfed Morgan Freeman, and let's not forget the name coincidence.

Heh, it does seem entirely possible that he was based off of the famous actor. Though now I'm envisioning "March of the Peguinators, starring Nate Morgan."XD

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Much as I am loath to interrupt this sterling discussion of racist homosexual bestiality, I picked up #205 today (being a behind the times British person). Thus bringing the number of Archie comics I've read up to 2! I would have bought the Knux comic too, but I was actually too poor.

While already well aware of the impending PINGAS, it was still a sweet read. I was a little bemused that "OMG Robotnik's escaped and is running rampage like some sort of crazy meme fountain!" is a plot point that lasts for all of ONE comic, but is that normal for Archie? I may just be accustomed to Fleetway's fortnightly methods where they HAD to stretch plots out. Bit of Ye Olde Skoole style Sonic & Tails vs. Robotnik in a boss robot was good, as was the fox reassuring Sonic about his emotional state rather than the other way round.

But I liked Birthright a lot better than On The Run. Even though I have absolutely no idea who these echidnas are or what's going on with these retrospective Legion political assassination flashbacks... you can't go wrong with political assassination. Enjoying the gleischaltung mention of the Zoah, too. I thought the art was better in Birthright. Lien-Da's wide-eyed look of revolted surprise when Kragok reveals he's screwed her over for Grandmastery is absolutely brilliant.

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Much as I am loath to interrupt this sterling discussion of racist homosexual bestiality,

That, sir, is the funniest thing I've read all year...You deserve a medal.^_^

But at any rate, I agree with you that the role reversal(With Tails comforting Sonic) was a nice touch to the issue indeed.

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Of course I wouldn't like to be known only as "the lesbian". But I certainly wouldn't care if it came out in casual conversation as any random fact about a person might.

What happened in the comic, I'm told, is that an echidna character was introduced and implied to be Rotor's partner. That in itself is not an unusual type of thing to come out at all. It's not like someone held up a flashing arrow saying "GAY!" and then forced Rotor to be known as "The Gay One" forever more. However, there is nothing wrong with being known to be gay and I was pleased that such a thing was acknowledged as something that is okay to be talked about in passing conversation or by nuance.

And that's why I said that I was happy with the imply but I was also happy that it didn't develop any further. I see no wrong about what I said.

I don't think any of us know what the other said anymore.

My God, the wall of text.

Edited by redmenace

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I'm not going to read that massive wall of text, Miko. I'm tired of this ridiculous tangent and I've had a few complaints about some posts here via PM, so I'm just gonna ask nicely that we ALL move on now. Thanks.

I doubt that Sally and Khan are going to be getting that close that quickly, Blazey, although it's kinda cute and I like the match up better than Sonic and Sally. I guess maybe because Khan reminds me a little of Knuckles with his brash hot-headedness and eagerness to fight, yet having a compassionate 'good guy' centre underneath it all.

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I'm not going to read that massive wall of text, Miko. I'm tired of this ridiculous tangent and I've had a few complaints about some posts here via PM, so I'm just gonna ask nicely that we ALL move on now. Thanks.

I doubt that Sally and Khan are going to be getting that close that quickly, Blazey, although it's kinda cute and I like the match up better than Sonic and Sally. I guess maybe because Khan reminds me a little of Knuckles with his brash hot-headedness and eagerness to fight, yet having a compassionate 'good guy' centre underneath it all.

Come to think of it, Khan is pretty much Knuckles if he were a Mobian Goku instead of Mobian Wolverine.^_~

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