Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Mauro Fonseca]

Yeah, I started by replying to you but I suppose most of my post's for CSS

[Dejimon11]

At this point does it really matter if the comics aren't directly based off the game. Non of the sonic multi-media brands aren't even close to the original source material. Plus with the recent revelation of the Sonic Bible(that wasn't meant to come off as a bible joke) haven't we established that when it comes to story and continuity the game franchise is a complete mess?

Edit: And before somebody say it "but Mega Man" that's completely different. Every multi media mega man project(with the exception of a few) they've pretty much stuck with the same basic formula of the games "Dr. Wily sends robot masters to attack the city" were as with Sonic nothing is similar at all. Not SatAM, not X,  not underground. And especially not Boom which is the most radically different but a lot of people seem to love that. So why should the Archie comics get the short end of the stick?

Edited August 22, 2015 by Dejimon11

[King Scoopa Koopa]

At this point does it really matter if the comics aren't directly based off the game. Non of the sonic multi-media brands aren't even close to the original source material. Plus with the recent revelation of the Sonic Bible(that wasn't meant to come off as a bible joke) haven't we established that when it comes to story and continuity the game franchise is a complete mess?

This. The way I see the Sonic comic now is sort of like the new TMNT cartoon, a nice mix of everything, but with the games at the core instead of whatever they made up instead before.

Edit: And before somebody say it "but Mega Man" that's completely different. Every multi media mega man project(with the exception of a few) they've pretty much stuck with the same basic formula of the games "Dr. Wily sends robot masters to attack the city" were as with Sonic nothing is similar at all. Not SatAM, not X,  not underground. And especially not Boom which is the most radically different but a lot of people seem to love that. So why should the Archie comics get the short end of the stick?

I think someone said something about restarting the comic and telling the early games the way Mega Man does, but would SEGA even allow that? They have some very strange rules, and don't seem to be as relaxed about things as Capcom. Probably helps that Capcom isn't doing anything with the franchise right now except rereleasing those same games anyway, while SEGA is finding new ways to say that the games they're selling you for $40-$60 a pop don't actually mean anything in the bigger picture.

Hitting a little too close to home there, buddy

Hey, don't we all hate it when other people judge the entire game series as bad based on one or two installments from a decade ago? Same deal here.

Edited August 22, 2015 by KingScoopaKoopa

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think people'd be happy with an 80% game canon comic, though. Instead of the 50% we get now :V It wouldn't have to be a zero sum game, but we're forced into that position- "EITHER TAKE THE ARCHIE ELEMENTS OR NOTHING NANNER NANNER" which is just really absurd. You'd figure you'd get first a faithful adaption, then if that's successful, additional AU explorations But we've had this discussion before, my point is just that the possibility of a hypothetical comic that actually WAS more faithful to the games is not an absurd. I really can't think of other cases where when a product is adapted people flock to defend the adaptions as "it NEEDS all these extraneous elements or it wouldn't work!"

There's reasons to want a games-only comic that the games themselves wouldn't cover by force of being games and not comics, and I don't see how this is a bizarre concept at all, even if not a concept that interests you.

They'd also be happy with a Sonic comic that simply interested them, whether it was 20% like the game canon like AoStH or SatAM, or a completely new setting separate from the games like Boom is. This is something you consistently fail to realize because you're only thinking of yourself and projecting it as other people should be content with - people simply like Sonic, and other licensed works they enjoy are not always faithful to the games. It's been like this for the comics years ago before more game elements were adapted. It's not absurd that the comics being more faithful to the games is a problem, what's absurd this idea that it being unfaithful is a bad thing and that we've been forced into this position that's absurd when we've had this AU exploration a whopping 20 years before now and that plenty of other Sonic works have been equally unfaithful themselves.

Literally no one has defended this stuff as something it needs or else it wouldn't work - it's like you've completely ignored the reboot people were surprised to enjoy despite it throwing away everything else they were interested in. They've been defending it as something that is distinct on its own like every other Sonic licensed work out there. Wanting a games-only comic isn't a bizarre concept to anyone here, the problem you consistently disregard is the idea that to have such a comic by removing everything not faithful to the games that people here enjoy. If you got a games-only comic separate from this one without sacrificing any of that (as in we still have this Archie Sonic distinct from the games alongside one more faithful to it), I seriously doubt many, if any people, would be against you for it. The worst they could say is that it would be redundant.

 

EDIT: Also "the games can tell better stories anyway!" is a fairly ridiculous argument.

It's also something I didn't actually say if you'd stop strawmanning for once and read what was actually said word-for-word.

Edited August 22, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mauro Fonseca]

My post last page was literally replying to a post saying "what'd be the point of having the comics be the same as the games". Now you're saying literally no-one has defended the differences in the comic as something it needs or it doesn't work. I reply to a post saying "the comics have no point if the same as the games", you say "no-one's said the comics can't be like the games or they won't work". Come on.

 

I know you have problem believing this, and with good reason, but I'm not here to antagonize you. I've washed my hands off this. Pretty literally, I'm saying "fuck Archie Sonic, it's a mess and a disappointment as far as I'm concerned, I'm out except to point neat art sometimes". Put your weapons down, calm yourself. I'm not here to insult you for liking it. I'm here to reply to someone who said "there's no point to have the comics be like the games" with "why is there no point to it?". That's all. Not saying cancel the comic, not saying anything other than "why do you act like the hypothetical existing comic that is like the games would be pointless".

 

As for your last point, why don't you explain it again what you read? Because what I read was

 

Meanwhile, the games not only have more resources and space they can utilize to tell more elaborate stories than the comics (

and 

without 

the non-game characters and places to boot),

 but enhance it further by allowing us to interact with the world and explore its history at the locations we want to go at our own leisure compared to the comics which rigidly take us to the places it wants us to see and lacks much of the freedom that the games have for us to explore. Like really, the games have been far more capable of delivering greater a greater depth of story than the comics, it being its own fault (and by that I mean the game writers and developers) for not capitalizing on the missed opportunities that the comics are taking advantage of, opportunities that I bet the games would have been much greater than the comics and gotten our greater attention and appreciation had it taken them for themselves without the comic exclusives.

One cutscene from the games tell and do far more than a single page (or even two) from the comics can, nevermind how the games can have several dozens of set pieces - from simple signs, to statues and paintings, to NPCs and so forth - that delivers much more information on that single game that we can explore at our own pace compared to a single comic which can only handle much fewer than that, requires us to wait weeks on end for us to see more, and does so at the pace it decides to have and with little input from the audience other than turning the page. And all this is why it still baffles people why you not only rant on the comics for not doing this, but also being something it's been since its very first issue. So this desire for more elaborate stories falls flat when, again, the comics are much more limited in doing such compared to the games.

 

IE, games have more resources, can make bigger stories, can be further enhanced, having more depth, so why're you demanding this from comics instead of from games. IE "the games can tell better stories anyway!", or rather, if you want, "the games can tell stories more effectively". To which I'm replying "sure, but I like comic books."

 

EDIT: Really, let me TL;DR because I just like rambling and repeatedly stating what I mean.

 

Only reason I even appeared here now (beyond posting that Bates post I liked) was because Forte-Metallix expressed a feeling of... confusion? Or not being able to comprehend? This is making it sound more serious than I want. Basically, he doesn't seem to get the appeal of a games-only comic, which is a statement I've seen repeated for years now (there'd be no point if it was just like the games!). All I'm saying is, why? Ignore everything else, imagine a perfect world where they actually do make a new comic that's like that without affecting the other ones, would you still say "what's the point"?

Edited August 22, 2015 by The KKM

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 

 

My post last page was literally replying to a post saying "what'd be the point of having the comics be the same as the games". Now you're saying literally no-one has defended the differences in the comic as something it needs or it doesn't work. I reply to a post saying "the comics have no point if the same as the games", you say "no-one's said the comics can't be like the games or they won't work". Come on.

There is a chasm in of a difference between "what's the point," and "it doesn't need this" or "it can't work" the right down to the words on your screen. It would really help if you stopped strawmanning people and read what they're saying instead of putting words in their mouths.

 

If you're going to explain a point, do so without twisting people's words into something else.

 

know you have problem believing this, and with good reason, but I'm not here to antagonize you. I've washed my hands off this. Pretty literally, I'm saying "fuck Archie Sonic, it's a mess and a disappointment as far as I'm concerned, I'm out except to point neat art sometimes". Put your weapons down, calm yourself

You put yours down first.

It's great you got that off your chest for the millionth time. Now could you please knock off the antagonizing and strawmanning? Because whether you're intending to do it or not, that's what you've practically done. We'll put our weapons down when you do so in return.

As for your last point, why don't you explain it again what you read?

 

Okay, here's what I read:

 

Reading elaborate stories with the setting and characters of the games?I still don't understand this question, years later, as if the concept were so stupidly alien.

Now here's a challenge: find the words "better stories" in that very order in this quote that I was addressing. Because last I checked, the definition of "elaborate" wasn't "better".

All I'm saying is, why? Ignore everything else, imagine a perfect world where they actually do make a new comic that's like that without affecting the other ones, would you still say "what's the point"?

If the stories were the exact same as the games I might. But you know what I would do? I'd respect the people who'd like it for what it is and let them enjoy their game canon comic in peace. And unlike what you're doing, I'd let them do so without being disrespectful by saying "fuck their version for being the same" like you're doing to Archie for being different - I do just that for the Sonic Boom verse, which I have very little interest in at all.

Edited August 23, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Forte-Metallix]

 

Only reason I even appeared here now (beyond posting that Bates post I liked) was because Forte-Metallix expressed a feeling of... confusion? Or not being able to comprehend? This is making it sound more serious than I want. Basically, he doesn't seem to get the appeal of a games-only comic, which is a statement I've seen repeated for years now (there'd be no point if it was just like the games!). All I'm saying is, why? Ignore everything else, imagine a perfect world where they actually do make a new comic that's like that without affecting the other ones, would you still say "what's the point"?

...Excuse me?

My point was that the reason the comic has lasted so long is because it has enough unique content to make it stand out amongst other Sonic incarnations. And with this reboot, we now have everything appealing from the games, SatAM, AoStH, and some new stuff to boot. 

And unlike the game writers, Flynn knows what he's doing and made the main series games compehensible and unique by adding in new elements. (For example, having Snively controlling the Eggrobo in Knuckles's solo story in 3&K)

This new world is essentially what you've been asking for: a better, more cohesive version of the game universe with plenty of unique and memorable characters and elements.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

This new world is essentially what you've been asking for: a better, more cohesive version of the game universe with plenty of unique and memorable characters and elements.

With non-game elements such as the cartoons and comic exclusive material.

That caveat is important because the whole issue is the comics completely throwing that into the trash for something even more close to the games, as they want it without all that other stuff.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I've already said a ton of times it's not like I want all non-game elements gone, I just dont' want them running the show. The reboot didn't go far enough, I meant.

 

That's irrelevant to this discussion though, as I've already offered the hypothetical where this is a new comic going alongside Archie Sonic as it is right now. My question, once more, is purely with Forte-Metallix seemingly not getting what the point would be of, what someone would want from, a games-based Sonic comic, which is a sentiment I've heard for years, and which I still don't understand- I may not like Archie Sonic as it is now, but I can understand why someone would; why does the opposite not seem to occur except for rare, rare cases?

 

(EDIT: The argument Ian gets what the games blah blah blah is also very arguable, and this is not just nonsense from me, but that's a discussion besides the point. He's shown he actually DOES get the games when he's forced to write games-specific content, in terms both of lore and characters, and only seems to start deviating if allowed to write the Archie version instead, so in this hypothetical comic I'm asking Forte-Metallix about, we can still imagine he's writing. Although I'd maybe prefer Yardley! or Bates on rotation too.)

Edited August 22, 2015 by The KKM

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Except they're not ruining the show, which you'd see if you actually understood more why people like Archie Sonic as it is (despite it coming after a reboot they never wanted).

And the reason the opposite doesn't occur is because, for the most part, you already got that in the games. To them, it comes off as redundant. And even then, you being completely disrespectful to them about it and demanding less of the other non-game material doesn't earn a mutual understanding.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I didn't say ruin, I said run. I did, didn't I? Did I- no, don't think I typoed. The Archie elements run the show, in the sense the game elements were bent to fit them for the most part. The reboot didn't change this as much as you seem to think it did. If, like me, you prefer the game elements, this is a bad thing.

 

And to that, I then reply what I already did before- games are fine, I like reading comics. As for being rude, I'm not just talking in conversation with me, I'm talking in general. In scenarios of anonymousity, in discussions with others. There seems to be a generalised feeling of "the comic has a point because it's different" without the corresponding understanding of "the comic being the same doesn't mean there's no point".

[ZERO_ninja]

Sonic seems pretty married to those comic OCs. I'm in the bracket that is fine with that and actually likes it, but I'm not about to pretend like the comic isn't making non-game characters completely central to its narrative with the world and Sonic's relationships working around them and not them working around the game's lore.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I like most of the comic-exclusive characters. I think the only one I'm not a fan of is Rotor, and that's for two reasons. One, he's got a weird design that I don't think totally fits with the other characters. Two, I don't really see a need for another tech guy, we've already got Tails. I honestly liked how they kinda retired him in the pre-SGW continuity and put him on the council until he finally got tired of that shit and made that power armor thing and wrecked shit up. But now, here he is, just kinda back to what he was before, which I wasn't a huge fan of.

 

As for Sally...eh. She's different enough from Amy, but I don't see why they couldn't just make Amy more like her Boom personality, because aside from the OCD that Boom Amy has going on, that's pretty much what Sally is.

I really like Antoine and Bunnie though.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I didn't say ruin, I said run. I did, didn't I? Did I- no, don't think I typoed.

Ya know, were it not for your passive-aggressive response, I would have actually apologized for mistaking that.

The Archie elements run the show, in the sense the game elements were bent to fit them for the most part. The reboot didn't change this as much as you seem to think it did. If, like me, you prefer the game elements, this is a bad thing.

It isn't a bad thing, mainly because it's always been this way from the get go. Yeah, the game elements were bent to fit them, the reason being that it's been an alternate universe since Issue 1. It still being this way after the reboot doesn't make this a bad thing. And while you may prefer the game elements, others like the Archie elements alongside them just as much - you don't like it, you don't have to waste your time and money reading it.

Edited August 23, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I didn't say ruin, I said run. I did, didn't I? Did I- no, don't think I typoed. The Archie elements run the show, in the sense the game elements were bent to fit them for the most part. The reboot didn't change this as much as you seem to think it did. If, like me, you prefer the game elements, this is a bad thing.

 

And to that, I then reply what I already did before- games are fine, I like reading comics. As for being rude, I'm not just talking in conversation with me, I'm talking in general. In scenarios of anonymousity, in discussions with others. There seems to be a generalised feeling of "the comic has a point because it's different" without the corresponding understanding of "the comic being the same doesn't mean there's no point".

Archie characters run the show? Ever since the reboot, there has been one arc based solely on the Archie exclusives (Spark of Life), The rest has either been more based around game characters or screen time has been shared amongst them. Champions for example is solely based around the Sega Sonic characters with brief cameos from the Archie characters as we check in on them watching the fights.

In fact, going further, here's how each arcs were when I look at them.

Worlds Collide: No Archie Characters

Countdown to Chaos: Screentime is shared anongst Sonic and the Freedom Fighters, but Sonic & Tails are more of the focus as they are the ones going place to place and sharing more time together.

Pirate Plunder Panic!: Solely Sega Exclusive. No Archie characters are featured whatsoever. The main leads are Amy, Blaze, Cream, and Marine. The villain is a Metal Sonic.

Damage Control: Screentime is once again shared between all characters which is fair as this issue's main point is to show the newly reunited group of Freedom Fighters, both Sega Sonic and Archie Sonic.

Shadow Fall: Almost entirely Sega Sonic exclusive, only exceptions being Eclipse and Black Death, but seeing as your main point is ''the freedom fighters are running the show''. They don't really matter in your argument. 

The Chase: Once against shared between Sega Sonic and Archie Sonic characters.

Sonic Comic Origins: Explained, Sega have put out a mandate that Sega Sonic characters aren't allowed any back stories.

Waves of Change: Shared between Sega Sonic and Archie Sonic Freedom Fighters, although I'd say the focus is more on Sonic, and Amy, and Coral, with Rotor being along for the ride.

The Great Chaos Caper: Sega Sonic Exclusive. The story was focused solely on Knuckles, the Chaotix, and Nack's rouges. 

Control: Almost entirely Sega Exclusive, with only Sally, Thunderbolt and Moss along for the ride, aka only one freedom fighter being featured. Rest are all Sega Sonic

Ambushed!: Arc is shared between Sonic gaining control of his Werehog form, and Archie Characters trying to survive an ambush

Total Eclipse: Entirely made up of Sega Sonic characters, exception being Eclipse, and Relic, and Fixit, along with a few brief showings of Snively. No Freedom Fighters whatsoever though.

Champions: Sega Sonic Exclusive, with very brief check ins on the Freedom Fighters showing them watching the matches.

Spark Of Life: Mainly Archie Characters due to being a backstory for Nicole, but Tails and Big are still along for the ride.

Worlds Unite: Such a clusterfuck of a arc that I'd argue no one really ran the show because it's so many featured. I suppose the argument could be made that Sonic Boom runs the show due to Sticks being the one who does a lot of the plot points, and showing up 3 times when they were recruiting other worlds.

So, for a series that you guys claim has the Freedom Fighters running the show, there has been one arc, just one arc made up almost entirely of Archie!Freedom Fighters. Compare that to a good 5 arcs made up exclusively of Sega Sonic characters running the show. 

Being honest, I don't want this comic to be more like the games. I liked the post!reboot world which is a blend of the new characters and old characters. I like Tails, I like Sonic, I like Knuckles, and I like a lot of the Sega Sonic characters, but I also like Nicole, I like Sally, I like Antoine, and Bunnie, and I like Rotor. That isn't even mentioning new characters I like such as Eclipse, and Relic.

In my eyes, Potac and Graff are absolutely fucking awful with Sonic. Lost World's story is one massive dump on these characters I really enjoy in my opinion, and stuff like Shattered Crystal has done nothing but make my favourite characters into dull, awful shadows of their former selves. 

Archie Sonic on the other hand has been making exclusive arcs that have still kept my favourite characters going and in their right personality. Knuckles is still a naive hot head who can be silly sometimes, but he also keeps his responsibilities in mind, he can be serious, and easily angered, and he can just relax sometimes as well. This is all from 3 arcs post!reboot and already he's my favourite version of Knuckles. 

Ian Flynn has even improved stories that I liked but always thought there was issues. For example, I hated how in Sonic Unleashed, Sonic's ''pure heart'' was what kept him from going crazy as the Werehog. It once again felt like a cop out because Sonic absorbed so much of the Dark Gaia energy, his form actually changed, so I find it hard that his ''pure heart'' is what kept him from falling to Dark Gaia's corruption.

In Archie Sonic, that's explained well, we see Sonic going crazy with the werehog. We see him being pushed to his limits and totally pissed off until he was ready to fight and destroy friend or foe because Dark Gaia was changing his view on what was happening, and Sonic had to actually spend time training his new form and his mind to resist Dark Gaia's influence. 

 

[Mauro Fonseca]

I didn't say characters, I said elements. As in, "Sonic must be a freedom fighter", blah blah blah, the discussion we've had before. There's no point in continuing it, as my point was entirely "Archie Sonic does not offer the same thing a hypothetical Game Sonic comic would offer", which I doubt you'd disagree with, regardless of whether you'd actually be interested in said thing a hypothetical Game Sonic comic would offer.

Edited August 23, 2015 by The KKM

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

A team can have more than two geniuses, heck the Avengers had 3(Iron-Man, Ant-Man, and Hulk) for that matter Pym was a member of the west coast avengers without having an alter-ego. The trick is how you use them. When you think about it, it works really well in this dynamic because most of the time whenever Sonic is on the move so is Tails, so he rarely has time to actually build his greater ideas(we've never seen him build something with the scope of say the egg carrier), whereas Rotor who tends to be more of a mechanical genius(more gear-head than theoretical) has time to work on the bigger projects and is geared more toward them. Despite the short time in this continuity, they've already shown this via the Sky Patrol, Tails and Rotor designed it together, but Rotor was the one who actually built it due to Tails being on the road. Also there's their usefulness in a battle scenario, Tails tends to stick to gadgets, and physically is equal or inferior to his more weapons/cyborg teammates(not to mention Sonic's super speed), not that he can't fight tail to hand, but he brings nothing special in that regard. On the other hand Rotor is one of the teams two bruisers(the other being bunny), he has more physical prowress, while being able to use weapons(and on a further note the intellect to focus that power further).

So you could say ya they are two geniuses it's redundant, or you could say Tails is a nimble gadget user, while Rotor is tech capable bruiser. It's all about perspective

[QuantumEdge]

Sorry to interrupt the debate, but look what I found http://www.comicbookresources.com/comic-previews/sonic-universe-79-archie-comics-2015

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

There's no point in continuing it, as my point was entirely "Archie Sonic does not offer the same thing a hypothetical Game Sonic comic would offer",

Which we've been consistently telling you that's the whole flipping point of it being alternate universe. It was never meant to offer the same thing a hypothetical Game Sonic comic, it was to be something that stood distinct from it like practically everything else that wasn't the games.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Sorry to interrupt the debate, but look what I found http://www.comicbookresources.com/comic-previews/sonic-universe-79-archie-comics-2015

Wow, Silver seriously can't catch a break. When he doesn't interfer, his future is a future filled with total chaos. When he does, it's a future where everything's controlled.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Which we've been consistently telling you that's the whole flipping point of it being alternate universe. It was never meant to offer the same thing a hypothetical Game Sonic comic, it was to be something that stood distinct from it like practically everything else that wasn't the games.

Yes, but as far as relevancy to the discussion happening, right now, over the last few pages, what you're saying is irrelevant- what was posted was "a hypothetical game sonic comic would have no point in existing", what I'm replying is "it would, independent of Archie Sonic or anything else".

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yes, but as far as relevancy to the discussion happening, right now, over the last few pages, what you're saying is irrelevant-

As was your point about Archie Sonic not offering the same thing as a hypothetica Game Sonic comic would, because it was never trying to in the first place. Everyone here who reads the comics know this. And even before the reboot it's been that way all the time.

Edited August 23, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Your Vest Friend]

Onyx City...sounds like a reimplementation of the Onyx Island thing but in a different context. I doubt it's on Onyx Island itself unless it's one of those "New York, New York" situations.

Also, the bands are just indications of a societal class? If they're basically ID tags/shackles, I don't know why they'd be able to be upgraded ala '06. 

[Sonictrainer]

Sorry to interrupt the debate, but look what I found http://www.comicbookresources.com/comic-previews/sonic-universe-79-archie-comics-2015

Did anyone else spot any easter eggs besides Sonic the Rabbit?

[Kuzu]

I really do not like this "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to the game fans and the comic fans of this comic; instead of just respecting the fact that we just have differences in our likes about the franchise, it comes off like we're trying to force our ideals on one another.

Like, I agree with the sentiment that the comic exclusive characters aren't that interesting when put next to the much more vibrant game cast. I don't get the same bond from the Freedom Fighters as a whole compared to whenever Sonic & Tails(or Knuckles, or Amy) interact and I feel like the writing could really do with fleshing out the interpersonal relationships among them.

Now notice how I opted for a solution that served to improve the overall situation rather than just say "I HATE THE COMIC CHARACTERS, THEY SUCK AND NEED TO GO" .  This zero sum attitude I've seen about this comic gets pretty ridiculous sometimes honestly, like if you have an issue with how the series does things then what's wrong with coming to a conclusion that doesn't piss off a portion of  the fanbase? Because whether we like it or not, the series still exists today because of fans that like the original elements almost as much as the ones who came for the Sonic-related ones. I mean hell, the series lost about 75% of its original content when it rebooted two years ago to a universe more in-line with the games and there are still people out there who want everything that isn't Sega relate exercised?

It just really comes off as selfish and acting entitled to me. :\