Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Shaddy Zaphod]

As much as I love love LOVE the Egg army, I meant (I know others were talking don't get me wrong) that I wish there were more villains not working for Eggman. I mean, we've got Naugus and the monsters of the week and Breezie sorta, but that's really kinda it.

[Dee Dude]

Hence why I'm super excited for Eggman's Dozen.

Same here. they look freaking awesome!

[Arranos]

So, what species is the yellow helmet Egg Boss?

 

[Shadowlax]

Same here. they look freaking awesome!

I'm not 

 

because I'm like " who " but you can't have knuckles and shadow arcs all the time, so well see. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by Shadowlax

[PC the Hedgehog]

I've never really cared for the Egg Army (and by extension, the former Dark Egg Legion). Both Sonic and Eggman himself have admitted that turning Mobians into cyborgs isn't Eggman's style at all, yet they decided to keep that aspect around after the comic's reboot. Sure, it adds a nice "human" element to the villains, but again, it's just not Eggman's style.

I much prefer the roboticization of old, though now with "cyberizing" being a regular thing, what's the point in having both?

[Chaos Controller]

I've never really cared for the Egg Army (and by extension, the former Dark Egg Legion). Both Sonic and Eggman himself have admitted that turning Mobians into cyborgs isn't Eggman's style at all, yet they decided to keep that aspect around after the comic's reboot. Sure, it adds a nice "human" element to the villains, but again, it's just not Eggman's style.

I much prefer the roboticization of old, though now with "cyberizing" being a regular thing, what's the point in having both?

From what I can tell, most of the Egg Army are no longer "cyborg hostages" with bomb implants as fail-safes, though. It's seeming like any cybernetics that they have are just to enhance them, and make them more powerful. And Eggman's all about using technology to supplement power and strength.

It's certainly more in line with the games than Eggman roboticizing people, using stolen technology from another inventor. Eggman's always taken pride in his superior genius and his way with robotics. Why would he steal some other guy's invention to turn people into robots, instead of just building and designing the robots himself?

Also, Eggman's always wanted world-domination, not to turn everyone into robotic slaves. The little animal buddies from the games were organic batteries for his badniks. They weren't transmuted into robotic versions of themselves.

I dunno. I think the Egg Army's a really smart concept, and gives Eggman a lot more to work with, as a character.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Chaos Controller

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It wasn't Eggman's "style" because it was someone else's that he added to his own. It first was with the Echidna's Dark Legion that wanted their cybernetics back, and then the Iron Queen made her own touch in the process.

How is it that far removed from what Eggman would do anyway? He's still dabbling with robotics, but now he has a much more flexible army to work with that oppose the Heroes along with him rather than it being one villain against everyone else with an army of single-minded machines that just obey orders - that's why we have both. Plus, it gives his army and empire more life beyond just robots, which I find far more interest as we see what it's like to be sentient with some degree of free will, but under Eggman's rule.

Or long story short, we see the Eggman Empire as an actual empire.

Edited October 26, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[horridus]

From what I can tell, most of the Egg Army are no longer "cyborg hostages" with bomb implants as fail-safes, though. It's seeming like any cybernetics that they have are just to enhance them, and make them more powerful. And Eggman's all about using technology to supplement power and strength.
It's certainly more in line with the games than Eggman roboticizing people, using stolen technology from another inventor. Eggman's always taken pride in his superior genius and his way with robotics. Why would he steal some other guy's invention to turn people into robots, instead of just building and designing the robots himself?

Also, Eggman's always wanted world-domination, not to turn everyone into robotic slaves. The little animal buddies from the games were organic batteries for his badniks. They weren't transmuted into robotic versions of themselves.

I dunno. I think the Egg Army's a really smart concept, and gives Eggman a lot more to work with, as a character.

Indeed. It's not like Eggman ever tried to usurp his grandfather's creations and discoveries for his own ends or tried multiple times to release supernatural entities to aid in his conquest or stole a corporation's technology to augment his own robots  Heck, even the Roboticizer theft wasn't exactly a straight up theft; according to the guys that worked on the show, the Roboticizer was never intended to *fully* Roboticize people, and it's ability to do that was entirely because of Robotnik. Thus, less of an out and out theft, given that he made it able to do something beyond it's original scope. 

That being said, the Dark Egg Legion wasn't an army of hostages... that would imply that they were aware of that little detail. That was something that Eggman added in without them knowing, just in case they ever got any ideas. There was mention of some of them being gang pressed and brainwashed, but so far there hasn't been any mention of that in the post-reboot continuity. I wouldn't really be surprised if the explosives thing is still true, because that just seems like common sense when you have a bunch of unpredictable organic minions running around. 

And I should point out, "turning everyone into robotic slaves" does fall under World Domination, just a more extreme form of conventional rule. Eggman isn't exactly a cuddly individual... even within the games, he attempted to nuke a city due to being angry and then managed to successfully *drown* that city, and at least one of his plans involved utilizing the energy of enslaved aliens to try and mind control people. I think Eggman as he exists in the games and the current iteration of the Archie Comics would want other people in the world he creates, but only because he enjoys having his ego fed and being praised and exulted. But really, the only real core difference between his various incarnations? Is just how far each one is willing to go in order to create the world that they want. Thus do you get the sliding scale of evil versus affable with how Eggman is depicted, with Satam, Fleetway and Pre-Reboot Archie Robotnik taking the extreme on the evil end, and with Sonic X Eggman and Boom Eggman being on the extreme of the affable end. 

But of course, all that is getting away from the point of the Egg Army. And I rather like them. It's a fairly unique spin on things for Eggman to have people willingly following him, and giving him lots of different minions to call upon gives him people to bounce off of and gives the heroes a bit of variety in fighting Eggman. It helps to make the Post-Reboot Archie continuity a bit more individualized. About the only real complaint I have is an incredibly minor quibble, and that being that using Eggman's uniform as a base for all the other Egg Bosses makes him seem a little plain by comparison. 

I mean, I get why it's done, and it's a great look to mimic, but given how Eggman is, you'd think he would want to be the one with the most unique and distinctive uniform of the bunch. He looks more like a teammate than he does their leader. But again, that's really just a weirdly specific quibble than a serious criticism. 

[Chaos Controller]

Indeed. It's not like Eggman ever tried to usurp his grandfather's creations and discoveries for his own ends or tried multiple times to release supernatural entities to aid in his conquest or stole a corporation's technology to augment his own robots  Heck, even the Roboticizer theft wasn't exactly a straight up theft; according to the guys that worked on the show, the Roboticizer was never intended to *fully* Roboticize people, and it's ability to do that was entirely because of Robotnik. Thus, less of an out and out theft, given that he made it able to do something beyond it's original scope.

 

And I should point out, "turning everyone into robotic slaves" does fall under World Domination, just a more extreme form of conventional rule. Eggman isn't exactly a cuddly individual... even within the games, he attempted to nuke a city due to being angry and then managed to successfully *drown* that city, and at least one of his plans involved utilizing the energy of enslaved aliens to try and mind control people. I think Eggman as he exists in the games and the current iteration of the Archie Comics would want other people in the world he creates, but only because he enjoys having his ego fed and being praised and exulted. But really, the only real core difference between his various incarnations? Is just how far each one is willing to go in order to create the world that they want. Thus do you get the sliding scale of evil versus affable with how Eggman is depicted, with Satam, Fleetway and Pre-Reboot Archie Robotnik taking the extreme on the evil end, and with Sonic X Eggman and Boom Eggman being on the extreme of the affable end.

I'm not saying "Eggman isn't a thief" or that "Eggman isn't a bad guy". I'm saying that the entire cornerstone of Eggman's character, and the tangible proof that he is, in fact, a genius is the fact that he *builds* his army of robots. They're his designs. He slaps his logo on some of them. Having his entire army be people who were just shoved through a machine, that he didn't even build himself, just kinda cheapens the fact that he's hard-working and brilliant. Him trying to abuse the powers of deities is just kind of meant to convey that even technology has no hopes of containing the primal forces of the universe (because, those same deities he tries to control, always turn on him).

And the point still stands that he never tried transforming people into robotic slaves in the games. He built them all himself. He takes such great pride in Metal Sonic because he's the pinnacle of Eggman's robotic genius.
 

That being said, the Dark Egg Legion wasn't an army of hostages... that would imply that they were aware of that little detail. That was something that Eggman added in without them knowing, just in case they ever got any ideas. There was mention of some of them being gang pressed and brainwashed, but so far there hasn't been any mention of that in the post-reboot continuity. I wouldn't really be surprised if the explosives thing is still true, because that just seems like common sense when you have a bunch of unpredictable organic minions running around.

I never said the Dark Egg Legion were an army of hostages. I think you'd be hard-pressed to deny that characters like Beauregard Rabbot and Matilda the Armadillo weren't, though.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Chaos Controller

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I should also mention that Eggman himself points out the flaws in both organic/cyborg soldiers and fully robotic ones - Organic soldiers have much more inventive thinking than his robotic soldiers, but they come with sass, excuses, and he has to threaten them to keep them in line (then again, he enjoys the threatening); on the other end, what robotic soldiers lack in inventive thinking, they make up for with greater competence (in so far as you could call it that, as the cyborgs aren't a slouch there either) and the lack of sass and excuses...well, those that aren't given full blown AI like Orbot and Cubot.

Combining both allows for the strengths of both to be put into effect and balance each other, just as much as the heroes are able take full advantage of their weaknesses to get past them.

Edited October 26, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Chaos Controller]

I should also mention that Eggman himself points out the flaws in both organic/cyborg soldiers and fully robotic ones - Organic soldiers have much more inventive thinking than his robotic soldiers, but they come with sass, excuses, and he has to threaten them to keep them in line (then again, he enjoys the threatening); on the other end, what robotic soldiers lack in inventive thinking, they make up for with greater competence (in so far as you could call it that, as the cyborgs aren't a slouch there either) and the lack of sass and excuses...well, those that aren't given full blown AI like Orbot and Cubot.

Combining both allows for the strengths of both to be put into effect and balance each other, just as much as the heroes are able take full advantage of their weaknesses to get past them.

Yeah, I'm digging the combination of Badniks and Cyborg Soliders a lot. It makes Eggman feel much more like a warlord, which I think is awesome.

He swoops in with his robots, forces people to submit to his genius, then puts them to work.

[horridus]

 

 

I'm not saying "Eggman isn't a thief" or that "Eggman isn't a bad guy". I'm saying that the entire cornerstone of Eggman's character, and the tangible proof that he is, in fact, a genius is the fact that he *builds* his army of robots. They're his designs. He slaps his logo on some of them. Having his entire army be people who were just shoved through a machine, that he didn't even build himself, just kinda cheapens the fact that he's hard-working and brilliant. Him trying to abuse the powers of deities is just kind of meant to convey that even technology has no hopes of containing the primal forces of the universe (because, those same deities he tries to control, always turn on him).

And the point still stands that he never tried transforming people into robotic slaves in the games. He built them all himself. He takes such great pride in Metal Sonic because he's the pinnacle of Eggman's robotic genius

Actually, you kind of *are* saying that Eggman isn't a thief. You singled out the Roboticizer as cheapening him. Fair enough. But why is that against the grain of what we've seen when he's been demonstrated having little problem using others inventions and devices for his own ends? He invaded GUN to find a weapon his Grandfather made, and then later tried to use another weapon of his to cow the world into submitting to him. It's not like he even built the thing off of schematics, even, he just used it as it was. He used a robot built by an ancient civilization to try and conquer the world by mass producing it, and then modified that robot to try again. His entire deal in the first two Riders games was trying to usurp the advanced technology of the Babylonians for his own use. In Sonic 06, he even stole the research of a corporation to use for his own robots. And then of course, why would such a hard core scientist who enjoys showing off that brilliance feel the need to resort to *mystical* means of defeating his enemies? Especially given the repeated backfiring thereof? Why is all this consistent with your view of the guy, but the Roboticizer thing is somehow a shattering of his character? 

Similarly, in at least once instance those 'animal friends' were demonstrated as being intelligent enough to do things like carrying around lockets with pictures of their families. Those birds might not have been 'people', but they were intelligent creatures. And again, at least one of his plans involved mind control. Is that really significantly different from roboticization, given that both robs people of their free will?

I'm just trying to figure out what it is, precisely, you take issue with, given his multiple instances of attempted and successful theft of technology he didn't create and resorting to means outside of science to achieve his ends? 

I never said the Dark Egg Legion were an army of hostages. I think you'd be hard-pressed to deny that characters like Beauregard Rabbot and Matilda the Armadillo weren't, though.

 

I didn't see the quotation marks. My bad there. 

[Chaos Controller]

 

Actually, you kind of *are* saying that Eggman isn't a thief. You singled out the Roboticizer as cheapening him. Fair enough. But why is that against the grain of what we've seen when he's been demonstrated having little problem using others inventions and devices for his own ends? He invaded GUN to find a weapon his Grandfather made, and then later tried to use another weapon of his to cow the world into submitting to him. It's not like he even built the thing off of schematics, even, he just used it as it was. He used a robot built by an ancient civilization to try and conquer the world by mass producing it, and then modified that robot to try again. His entire deal in the first two Riders games was trying to usurp the advanced technology of the Babylonians for his own use. In Sonic 06, he even stole the research of a corporation to use for his own robots. And then of course, why would such a hard core scientist who enjoys showing off that brilliance feel the need to resort to *mystical* means of defeating his enemies? Especially given the repeated backfiring thereof? Why is all this consistent with your view of the guy, but the Roboticizer thing is somehow a shattering of his character? 

Similarly, in at least once instance those 'animal friends' were demonstrated as being intelligent enough to do things like carrying around lockets with pictures of their families. Those birds might not have been 'people', but they were intelligent creatures. And again, at least one of his plans involved mind control. Is that really significantly different from roboticization, given that both robs people of their free will?

I'm just trying to figure out what it is, precisely, you take issue with, given his multiple instances of attempted and successful theft of technology he didn't create and resorting to means outside of science to achieve his ends? 

For the record, Sonic '06 technically never actually happened. (jk jk)

I also never said that the Roboticizer "shattered his character". I just think, in the grand scheme of things, it's redundant and doesn't really do any favors for his character. He builds his own robots *and* transmutes people into lifeless robot versions of their former selves? Are the lifeless, transmuted slaves (who weren't intended for combat) somehow superior? What's the point?

At least when he discovers a new entity or ancient piece of technology, he's trying to tame it, or augment his own technology with it. But, the Roboticizer? I fail to see what that's really bringing to the table. Kinda just seems like an outdated concept from the '90s that was thought up to add something compelling, plot-wise, to the series, back when it didn't have much of an actual story to go off of. Because, all they had to really work with, back then, was Sonic 1 and 2.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Chaos Controller

[horridus]

For the record, Sonic '06 technically never actually happened. (jk jk)

I also never said that the Roboticizer "shattered his character". I just think, in the grand scheme of things, it's redundant and doesn't really do any favors for his character. He builds his own robots *and* transmutes people into lifeless robot versions of their former selves? Are the lifeless, transmuted slaves (who weren't intended for combat) somehow superior? What's the point?

At least when he discovers a new entity or ancient piece of technology, he's trying to tame it, or augment his own technology with it. But, the Roboticizer? I fail to see what that's really bringing to the table. Kinda just seems like an outdated concept from the '90s that was thought up to add something compelling, plot-wise, to the series. Because, all they had to really work with, back then, was Sonic 1 and 2.

No, you simply said it 'cheapened' him, when by this point in the games he has tried several times over to usurp technologies not originating from him, as well as resorted to flat out mystical objects and creatures. You treat the Roboticizer as being a particularly egregious instance of this, and I fail to see how this is the case.

I would also think the point fairly obvious; enslavement. Robians are perfect slave drones, stronger and able to work longer, with no need for breaks due to things like food or sleep or organic frailties. So yes, for the simple fact that they are significantly stronger than what they once were and totally obedient and loyal, they would indeed be viewed as 'superior', particularly by a psychotic control freak with a machine fetish. Thousands converted into robots, put to work to build a hundred thousand war machines and to endlessly labor for whatever end that could be imagined.  Further uses include a mild bit of psychological warfare in turning the friends and families of those who resist against them and the promise of the same hapening to *them* if captured, as well as using them to provide a moral dillemma for any rebels... namely, how right it is to take the life of a Robian, given that it was once a person and has no say in what's happening.

Soo when Eggman reproduces the technology that created Emerl he's 'taming it', but the Roboticizer being modified to operate beyond it's original boundaries and uses is different? Is that correct? As to what it brings to the table, I don't know. What do badniks using organic batteries bring to the table, except to appeal to the nostalgia of the fanbase and the initial idea of Robotnik/Eggman as a mad scientist who turns animals into robots? There was a very long stretch where Eggman didn't bother to power his robots with animal friends at all, and increasingly has relied on mass produced humanoid robots to fight against Sonic. Roboticization is simply another interpretation of that concept, turning animals into robots, only taken to a far more literal extreme than the games. 

[Big Panda]

http://bumbleking.com/?page_id=512

It's cooooooooming...

[horridus]

http://bumbleking.com/?page_id=512

It's cooooooooming...

Oh please please please don't let this be another false alarm. Seriously, Flynn, I don't care how pretty it is. I'd read it if you wrote it on a bunch of bricks that had to be thrown through my front window for delivery. 

[shdowhunt60]

The only thing I can gripe about the roboticizer is that it's pretty much lost its edge. I mean, when you get down to it, the idea of being turned into a mindless robot has all the same horrific trappings of zombies or the Borg. It's a process that strips a person of their very being, their soul. And it's ever more terrifying in the case of roboticization, because there's a malignant entity that actively desires to use the husk of your former self towards some sort of end goal, as opposed to zombies and the Borg which act on pure instinct. There's the intent factor there, and that changes a lot.

The thing is though, and this isn't really Ian's fault, is that roboticization lost its teeth. The consequences became less dire when it was figured out that a person's personality could be restored, and that the process could be reversed. I don't necessarily mind it being there, after all it is an integral part of the Archie Universe, and there still IS some very real consequence to it, it's just that something got lost in time.

[Chaos Controller]

No, you simply said it 'cheapened' him, when by this point in the games he has tried several times over to usurp technologies not originating from him, as well as resorted to flat out mystical objects and creatures. You treat the Roboticizer as being a particularly egregious instance of this, and I fail to see how this is the case.

Well, I'm fairly certain that I explained my line of thinking rather clearly on that point. If you disagree, that's your choice.

I would also think the point fairly obvious; enslavement. Robians are perfect slave drones, stronger and able to work longer, with no need for breaks due to things like food or sleep or organic frailties. So yes, for the simple fact that they are significantly stronger than what they once were and totally obedient and loyal, they would indeed be viewed as 'superior', particularly by a psychotic control freak with a machine fetish. Thousands converted into robots, put to work to build a hundred thousand war machines and to endlessly labor for whatever end that could be imagined.  Further uses include a mild bit of psychological warfare in turning the friends and families of those who resist against them and the promise of the same hapening to *them* if captured, as well as using them to provide a moral dillemma for any rebels... namely, how right it is to take the life of a Robian, given that it was once a person and has no say in what's happening.

I'd argue that a fully automated factory (i.e. Scrap Brain Zone and the like) is far more efficient at quickly building war machines, rather than having to go through the process of Roboticizing people, just to have them work on the same thing.

Also, psychological warfare? I think Rotor's living, breathing father willingly choosing to work for Eggman offers a lot more, in the way of drama and actually screwing with the heroes, rather than something like Mecha Sally (who can't be held accountable for her actions because, guess what, she's a mindless robot slave).
 

Soo when Eggman reproduces the technology that created Emerl he's 'taming it', but the Roboticizer being modified to operate beyond it's original boundaries and uses is different? Is that correct?

Yeah, bingo. That's correct.

As to what it brings to the table, I don't know. What do badniks using organic batteries bring to the table, except to appeal to the nostalgia of the fanbase and the initial idea of Robotnik/Eggman as a mad scientist who turns animals into robots? There was a very long stretch where Eggman didn't bother to power his robots with animal friends at all, and increasingly has relied on mass produced humanoid robots to fight against Sonic. Roboticization is simply another interpretation of that concept, turning animals into robots, only taken to a far more literal extreme than the games. 

I dunno. You'd have to ask SEGA, since they're still doing it in the games currently. The whole point of this current continuity is to remain faithful to the games, while building around it in ways that don't contradict them.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Chaos Controller

[Celestia]

Oh please please please don't let this be another false alarm. Seriously, Flynn, I don't care how pretty it is. I'd read it if you wrote it on a bunch of bricks that had to be thrown through my front window for delivery. 

Hopefully this will be option, because that sounds like the ideal way to experience LHT.

I have questions, though. Who would be delivering these bricks? Would Flynn himself have to travel the world, hurtling them through people's windows? Would I have to pay extra if I want it thrown through my bedroom window on the second floor? What kind of brick are we talking about here, anyway?

[horridus]

Well, I'm fairly certain that I explained my line of thinking rather clearly on that point. If you disagree, that's your choice.

I'm just trying to figure out why the Roboticizer, to you, is egregious, but stealing Light Core technology or reverse engineering Emerl isn't, given that you very specifically have said that Eggman is a scientist who prides himself on *his* own work and labors. Key word being 'his'. 

I'd argue that a fully automated factory (i.e. Scrap Brain Zone and the like) is far more efficient at quickly building war machines, rather than having to go through the process of Roboticizing someone, just to have them work on the same thing.

Also, psychological warfare? I think Rotor's living, breathing father willingly choosing to work for Eggman offers a lot in the way of drama and actually screwing with the heroes, rather than something like Mecha Sally (who can't be held accountable for her actions because, guess what, she's a mindless robot slave).

Automated factories don't spring up on their own, and even they require technicians and mechanics, both of which require fine motor skills. And again, there would be motivation to use them for the simple fact that their presence would be a mitigating factor in Freedom Fighter assaults, given that said Freedom Fighters would perhaps be a tad reluctant to kill Robian workers, while Robians would not have such compunctions. And if you want to go on about efficiency, what's efficient about relying on a power source that you need to chase down before properly using?

And you see nothing terrifying about the chance that you could be killed by someone you loved? That no matter how much you plead or beg, your loved one isn't going to snap out of it or relent, but will kill you or, even better, drag you away to be made into another machine? That there is no source for drama there whatsoever?  No source of conflict whatsoever? No moral dillemma in how to respond to that? 

Yeah, bingo. That's correct.

That... doesn't make a lick of sense. Your bending over backwards to justify one instance of theft and rephrasing it as something else, while condemning another instance and framing it as a detriment. What is the difference to you??? 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Also, psychological warfare? I think Rotor's living, breathing father willingly choosing to work for Eggman offers a lot more, in the way of drama and actually screwing with the heroes, rather than something like Mecha Sally (who can't be held accountable for her actions because, guess what, she's a mindless robot slave).

Actually, the whole Mecha Sally thing is psychological warfare on part of Eggman to Sonic and his friends.

Imagine you had a (boy-/girl-)friend you've known and were close to for YEARS - someone that, for all the troubles and issues you've had over that long period, you've trusted to always have your back when they were around after being together for so long. Now imagine that person stripped of their will and forced into trying to kill you as a result of someone else commanding them to do so.

Most people would have a difficult time trying to fight something like that, and would hold their punches to refrain from doing them harm. It influences the mind of the enemy, evoking a planned psychological reaction in other people and also to to destroy the morale of enemies through tactics that aim to depress, hence it being psychological warfare (and that's the actual definition BTW, albeit paraphrased somewhat) - when Sally was roboticized, it sent a massive shockwave of guilt and sadness over her being under Eggman's control to the point of breaking up the Freedom Fighters as we knew it at the time.

Edited October 26, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Chaos Controller]

I'm just trying to figure out why the Roboticizer, to you, is egregious, but stealing Light Core technology or reverse engineering Emerl isn't, given that you very specifically have said that Eggman is a scientist who prides himself on *his* own work and labors. Key word being 'his'.

I just think that Emerl and the Gizoids are this lost, ancient piece of tech that no one could ever hope to replicate on their own. Eggman discovering it and actually figuring out how to reproduce it is a pretty sizable scientific achievement in and of itself, I think, and a huge credit to his intellect as a roboticist.

Also, aren't the Light Cores still just meant to be used in the robots he built (I've kinda forgotten '06's plot, it's been a while)? He still built the robots himself. Who knows? Perhaps he was searching for a replacement for organic, animal batteries, eh?

Automated factories don't spring up on their own, and even they require technicians and mechanics, both of which require fine motor skills. And again, there would be motivation to use them for the simple fact that their presence would be a mitigating factor in Freedom Fighter assaults, given that said Freedom Fighters would perhaps be a tad reluctant to kill Robian workers, while Robians would not have such compunctions. And if you want to go on about efficiency, what's efficient about relying on a power source that you need to chase down before properly using?

Aren't you still having to chase down Mobians to Roboticize them, though?

And yeah, they do require fine motor skills. The technicians and mechanics also have to be creative and think outside the box, something that mindless robot slaves can't do. That's what the Egg Army's for. And are you saying the Freedom Fighters would be less reluctant to kill them, instead of the Robians?

And you see nothing terrifying about the chance that you could be killed by someone you loved? That no matter how much you plead or beg, your loved one isn't going to snap out of it or relent, but will kill you or, even better, drag you away to be made into another machine? That there is no source for drama there whatsoever?  No source of conflict whatsoever? No moral dillemma in how to respond to that? 

I guess I just don't like robot zombies in Sonic, personally. If you're into it, there's nothing wrong with that. I was cool with it in SatAM, a universe that was altogether different. But, now? In something that's supposed to feel and look like the games? Sorry, I'm not feeling it.
 

That... doesn't make a lick of sense. Your bending over backwards to justify one instance of theft and rephrasing it as something else, while condemning another instance and framing it as a detriment. What is the difference to you??? 

I kind of elaborated more on it in this response, if that helps?

Edited October 26, 2015 by Chaos Controller

[horridus]

I just think that Emerl and the Gizoids are this lost, ancient piece of tech that no could ever hope to replicate on their own. Eggman discovering it and actually figuring out how to reproduce it is a pretty sizable scientific achievement in and of itself, I think, and a huge credit to his intellect as a roboticist.

It would be, if he hadn't already invented something that could do what Emeral and the Gizoids could do in the form of that nanite upgrade he gave Metal Sonic. Which sort of rendered Emeral redundant, but that's really more of an out of universe thing than anything that can really be applied in-universe. You've gone on quite extensively about him relying solely on his own technology and creations. Reverse engineering doesn't fall under that purview, nor does taking stuff from your grandfather's old lab, and trying to summon ancient gods CERTAINLY doesn't.

But okay, let's say I concede your point; reverse engineering ancient supertech is in fact quite astounding. You've offered your counterpoint as to why that one is still a sign of the guy's prowess. And that is fair. Let me offer my own counterpoint then as to why the Roboticzer isn't really as much of a cheapener as you suggest; I would also point out that all science and technology is built upon the knowledge and effort that came before it. Even something as simple sounding as making a more efficient version of an earlier device takes a great deal of effort. Being able to expand the capabilities of a machine, especially towards an extreme that was never intended by it's creator, is no less brilliant. Nor does it diminish the guy's skills. 

Also, aren't the Light Cores still just meant to be used in the robots he built (I've kinda forgotten '06's plot, it's been a while)? He still built the robots himself. Who knows? Perhaps he was searching for a replacement for organic, animal batteries, eh?

Light Core technology and classified technical specs were the property of Rimlight, a company in Soleanna. Said technology and specs were stolen by Eggman during that game, which is what prompted Shadow and Rouge to be sent in. And in at least one instance, he used Power Rings. Gamewise, none of the power sources seem to really make much of a difference. All that I know is that he went back to Animals in the recent games. 

And really, even when Roboticization is used, every other robot out there is still made by the guy. 

Aren't you still having to chase down Mobians to Roboticize them, though?

And yeah, they do require fine motor skills. The technicians and mechanics also have to be creative and think outside the box. That's what the Egg Army's for. And are you saying the Freedom Fighters would be less reluctant to kill them, instead of the Robians?

Indeed they would. So if chasing after animals to be made into organic batteries is an innefficency that Eggman can afford, why is chasing down Mobians to make into Robians so different? As to technicians and mechanics, that largely depends on whether or not the guy in charge WANTS that from them. As has been explained some posts ago, there are pros and cons to the use of organics and machines. For some, being able to program Robians with the neccessary skills and then setting them to work, endlessly, tirelessly and efficiently with unbreakable, might in fact be better than an organic who needs to eat, sleep and rest in order to be at top usefulness, and whose loyalties might not be so iron clad. It's really a matter of versatility versus dependability.

And not all Freedom Fighters are like Sonic and crew. If it came down to it, I think Sonic and co would be a lot less regretful of whatever harm might befall the Egg Army and the Egg Bosses than they would be if it happened to Robians, given that the Egg Army chose to serve Eggman and his insane dreams, wheras Robians are press ganged slaves who never asked to be where they are. I'm fairly certain groups inclined to more ruthless tactics would be a bit more off put by the idea of killing Robians than they would be by the idea of killy Egg Troopers and their commanders. We'll likely never see the more realistic implications of this conflict within the book, but if it were possible? I think there'd be a lot less anguish over what happens to the people willingly fighting to enslave the planet in the name of Eggman than they would be over those who were taken and forced to work against their will. 

I guess I just don't like robot zombies in Sonic, personally. If you're into it, there's nothing wrong with that. I was cool with it in SatAM, a universe that was altogether different. But, now? In something that's supposed to feel and look like the games? Sorry, I'm not feeling it.

You've already got a backstory that involved military corruption, a child being murdered and her grandfather plotting genocide as an act of vengeance, an invasion of aliens laying siege to the planet for the purposes of turning its people into cattle, an angry water god demolishing a city after having drowned the entire planet ages back, one recurring villain whose goal is nothing short of destroying everything, and six demonic creatures who tried to drain an entire planet of its life just to make themselves stronger. I don't care if you like or dislike it, I just dispute your notion that somehow it 'doesn't fit in', given the subject matter of the games over the years. 

I don't think if it did come back that it would have the same impact, largely because yes, the tone of things has changed since the years it was first utilized, particularly since Eggman's goals are no longer the same as the individuals who first made use of it. At the very best, I would picture a set-up like Sonic Underground; the thing being used to punish people who resist him, rather than being the end being the means itself. I'd appreciate seeing it again, but I wouldn't be crushed if it never came back. But suggesting that somehow the very concept of it 'doesn't work now'? That's where I take issue.

I would add, the comics aren't the games. They might align closer now than they did before, but they're still their own thing, and permitted a depth that the games themselves never see. Maybe Roboticization would be out of place in the games proper, but here? Eggman is still a nastier customer than his source, and even though the stakes have drastically lowered from the pre-reboot continuity, it's still higher than they are in the games, given that the Eggman Empire exists beyond the confines of his imagination here. 

I kind of elaborated more on it in this response, if that helps?

Yes, it did. Thank you. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by horridus
I felt that this point could be elaborated on in a less dismissive and more diplomatic fashion.

[Chaos Controller]

It would be, if he hadn't already invented something that could do what Emeral and the Gizoids could do in the form of that nanite upgrade he gave Metal Sonic. Which sort of rendered Emeral redundant, but that's really more of an out of universe thing than anything that can really be applied in-universe. You've gone on quite extensively about him relying solely on his own technology and creations. Reverse engineering doesn't fall under that purview, nor does taking stuff from your grandfather's old lab, and trying to summon ancient gods CERTAINLY doesn't.

You keep claiming that's what I said, but I didn't. I said that Eggman builds his own robots. Gaining his robots via "magic robot zombie generator" takes away from that. I never said that he shouldn't steal other people's things, or that he shouldn't utilize his grandfather's research, or that he shouldn't summon gods.

I also argued that reverse engineering lost, ancient technology is a great credit to his robotic genius, therefore, I think it gets a pass.

But okay, let's say I concede your point; reverse engineering ancient supertech is in fact quite astounding. You've offered your counterpoint as to why that one is still a sign of the guy's prowess. And that is fair. Let me offer my own counterpoint then as to why the Roboticzer isn't really as much of a cheapener as you suggest; I would also point out that all science and technology is built upon the knowledge and effort that came before it. Even something as simple sounding as making a more efficient version of an earlier device takes a great deal of effort. Being able to expand the capabilities of a machine, especially towards an extreme that was never intended by it's creator, is no less brilliant. Nor does it diminish the guy's skills.

 That, too, is fair. My issue, however, is with the army it generates. He didn't build or design it. That's what bugs me.
 

You've already got a backstory that involved military corruption, a child being murdered and her grandfather plotting genocide as an act of vengeance, an invasion of aliens laying siege to the planet for the purposes of turning its people into cattle, an angry water god demolishing a city after having drowned the entire planet ages back, one recurring villain whose goal is nothing short of destroying everything, and six demonic creatures who tried to drain an entire planet of its life just to make themselves stronger. I don't care if you like or dislike it, I just dispute your notion that somehow it 'doesn't fit in', given the subject matter of the games over the years. 

I don't think if it did come back that it would have the same impact, largely because yes, the tone of things has changed since the years it was first utilized, particularly since Eggman's goals are no longer the same as the individuals who first made use of it. At the very best, I would picture a set-up like Sonic Underground; the thing being used to punish people who resist him, rather than being the end being the means itself. I'd appreciate seeing it again, but I wouldn't be crushed if it never came back. But suggesting that somehow the very concept of it 'doesn't work now'? That's where I take issue.

Those are definitely all things that happened. But, my reason for it 'not fitting in' is because it's the direct explanation for Eggman turning animals into robots, at least in SatAM. That was its whole original purpose, as a plot device. Having both that and the organic batteries at the same time is weird, and I think you should go either one way or the other with the concept.

But, sure, I could totally see it being reworked as a punishment, like in Sonic Underground or something, I suppose. Why not?
 

I would add, the comics aren't the games. They might align closer now than they did before, but they're still their own thing, and permitted a depth that the games themselves never see. Maybe Roboticization would be out of place in the games proper, but here? Eggman is still a nastier customer than his source, and even though the stakes have drastically lowered from the pre-reboot continuity, it's still higher than they are in the games, given that the Eggman Empire exists beyond the confines of his imagination here. 

 That is true. But, the million dollar question now is, "How high should the stakes be?"

Edited October 26, 2015 by Chaos Controller

[blade57331]

It's far more of an out-of-universe issue. Even if Ian changes everything about Thrash, people will still look at him and think of a very infamous story brought upon my legal issues in which he did something really horrible.

Idk. Many things of him as a our saviour because he taked many trashy characters out of comic.(Yes, I'm one of those:D  )

And he put a stop to echidna-overpopulation in comics. Thought, I woudln't mind ONE, just one more echidna next to Knuckles who would be straight up villain a'la Finitevus-style.