Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Your Vest Friend]

I have one, but at this point going into it is spoilers. 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Spoilers of what? What characters have we yet to see in a released comic?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I have one, but at this point going into it is spoilers. 

So much that you won't even spoiler tag it?

[blade57331]

World building is one thing and I get that they need more time with it but a problem is that some characters seem to be now much more two-dimensional.

I mean look at Shadow, a character that I personality don't even care. Let's compare him in his two arcs from pre-reboot(SU #1-4) and after reboot(SU #59-62)

In Shadow Saga

"the entirety of this arc features Shadow selling himself short due to the expectations he sets for himself. These issues could have been just him doing cool stuff and just being Sonic's "Dark Double" but it wasn't. It shows Shadow facing considerable obstacles, and how he copes when he believes he falls short. It's important to him that he doesn't fail because he thinks that to fail is to to disgrace his creator. If he's less than perfect, he'll feel like less than nothing. That's something that I think many people can relate to."

And what do we get in Shadow Fall?

Because all I see there is Ow-The-Edge.

Shadow(and story for that matter) it this arc is pretty over the top and cliché(just like in his own game).

I kind of worry about the comic, specailly now with all this mandates and restrictions. Thought I admit it served in some way a good things for some characters. Knuckles for example LOST AND GAIN the most thanks to reboot.

NonethelessI I still really enjoy the comic.

[Shadowlax]

I think the bad thing with shadowfall is that there might be not enough dialouge. 

The vs knuckles thing just has giant ass plot holes, like... alot. To force a fight between two characters, who honestly given the circumstances wouldn't even really fight. And to make it fair for one party. 

I shadow had a good lines here and there, but those arks made everyone look bad. Particularly omega and rouge. 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Nope because Shadow Fall focuses on Shadow trying to cope with his alien origins, trying to distance himself from them while they try to sway him back to their side. It's about him conquering his own fears of both his own power and the past being used against him since his entire focus has been moving towards the future. Just because the comic doesn't have Shadow nearly making out with a Maria clone while the arc's character study is forced in your face doesn't mean that said character moments aren't there. Shadow has to use black arms technology to progress through the comet and he hates that. The soldiers ridicule Shadow for being part alien and Shadow needs to make it clear he's not with them, but he doubts himself in the process, and this comes to a head when he is put under their control and forced to fight for them, finally proving himself loyal in a final-not-final-because-comic-book sacrifice.

As for Total Eclipse, that's more about Knuckles contemplating what risks he needs to take to keep his home safe. As well as development on his purpose as guardian i.e. why bother keeping the island nobody lives on safe, because the echidnas can't come back? Why is Knuckles so devoted to this job that he refuses to do anything else?

Basically what I'm saying here is just because the important subtexts of the arc were too subtle for you to notice doesn't mean they weren't there

[Arranos]

So, what should be released?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

17 hours ago, blade57331 said:

World building is one thing and I get that they need more time with it but a problem is that some characters seem to be now much more two-dimensional.

What does it mean to be two-dimensional? Because it more than likely doesn't mean what you think it does, especially regarding post-reboot Shadow because he's far from two-dimensional. (although I do prefer pre-reboot Shadow, that much I agree)

When it comes to character dimensions, it's telling how people have no clue what those actually are and throw them around like a form of criticism.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

There's absolutely nothing with preferring pre-reboot versions of characters, for sure. I prefer a more timid and less angry Shadow too, but that doesn't mean that the one we've got is any less developed as a result, it's just a different interpretation.

[Shadowlax]

I don't think shadow falls or total eclipse's premises were done well at all 

One dealing with the possibility of maybe team dark's dynamic isn't very good, and maybe they shouldn't even be a team anymore. And questioning are they even friends. 

The other having plot holes so large that big the can fish in it. 

[blade57331]

4 hours ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

What does it mean to be two-dimensional? Because it more than likely doesn't mean what you think it does, especially regarding post-reboot Shadow because he's far from two-dimensional. (although I do prefer pre-reboot Shadow, that much I agree)

A two-dimensional character is the same as one-dimensional character except for the fact that they show one emotion or character trait. They are also known as "cardboard" characters, your cutouts, because they lack dimension. They show a little bit of character through the reactions and emotions, but everything they reveal is of a one-track nature that's somewhat undeveloped and often lacking reason, explanation, or depth.

For me sound like many Sonic characters.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 hours ago, blade57331 said:

A two-dimensional character is the same as one-dimensional character except for the fact that they show one emotion or character trait. They are also known as "cardboard" characters, your cutouts, because they lack dimension. They show a little bit of character through the reactions and emotions, but everything they reveal is of a one-track nature that's somewhat undeveloped and often lacking reason, explanation, or depth.

For me sound like many Sonic characters.

And this is your source I presume?

I prefer Lajos Egri's definition in "The Art of Dramatic Writing," which is the Physiological (appearance), the Sociological (life and background), and the Psychological (Personality and Mindset). But okay, for the sake of the argument, let's use your definition then.

That's still false regarding all the other Sonic characters. Shadow has shown happiness, anger, shock, concern, and heck he's even smiled in this rebooted universe. And more imporantly, he especially shows dedication, sticking to what he swore to Gerald and Maria about protecting the Earth from the Black Arms, even if it means going against his "brother" Eclipse. And with this being closer to the games, this is highlighted because we know his past and why he chooses the path he chose in his life. We know his motives and attitude, we know his past, and we know his current life. That's 3 Dimensions in itself (actually, that still fits Lajos Egri's definition anyway, now that I put it that way...)

Knuckles has actually shown intelligence in the Fighters arc after dealing with Nack while waiting for him to slip up in their fight, or utilizing Angel Island's defenses and breaking the Master Emerald to keep Eclipse from getting at it. He has also shown concern and has felt sorry for his actions in the same arc, thinking Amy was ready to fight before knocking her out of the arena and feeling embarrased for it. And we know his reasons for doing so: who would want a powerful, dangerous alien who is designed to combat Shadow to have their hands on the most powerful object in the world? Why wouldn't he feel sorry for something he thought the other person was ready while everyone is giving him dirty looks for going overboard?

And don't get anyone started on Sonic. Nevermind Sally, who we've seen in her youth learning how to use Nicole and being headstrong as always. Or Nicole, who's entire backstory, motives, drives and ambitions have been revealed, as well as the fact that she's a computer turned sentient AI that gained emotions to begin with. Hell, we've seen depth from Big the fucking Cat of all characters, the most two-dimensional and simplistic character of the franchise! Do I need to remind everyone of the simple minded wisdom that he gives Sally over Nicole, stating that it doesn't matter what a person is, whether a living breathing person or a computer AI with emotions, all that matters is if that person is an good person.

We know about Antoine, being a former student of an exchange program who had the misfortune of being caught in Eggman's attack on the Kingdom of Acorn, showing love for Princess Sally in his youth before he showed affection, and got married to Bunnie. And Bunnie has show depth in how she had her life saved via cybernetics, how she never asked for them and how they affected her life despite how used she is to them, and got to understand and sympathise someone who contrasts her by seeking cybernetics from the most evil man in the world who was capable of giving them to her to deal with an illness.

I could go on. A lot of the characters here are anything but two-dimensional even by the definition you're using. We know these characters as living people because they've shown us a glimpse of their lives and what they choose to do in it, as well as why they do so. So don't even think about applying that term to these characters without understanding it, because they actually qualify as three-dimensional by the other definition:

 

Quote

A three-dimensional

character however, plays an important role in the story and constitutes all major characters, including villains. They have complex emotions and conflicting motives, troubled pasts and deep worries; they are alive with passion and ambition and desire, never apathetic (and if they are, they are overly apathetic).

[shdowhunt60]

You know, the funny thing is, is that people like to use "one-dimensional" as a blanket term for "character I don't like". It's something I noticed. That and "Mary Sue", that's another recurring one.

[QuantumEdge]

On ‎31‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 8:10 AM, Shadowlax said:

I don't think shadow falls or total eclipse's premises were done well at all 

One dealing with the possibility of maybe team dark's dynamic isn't very good, and maybe they shouldn't even be a team anymore. And questioning are they even friends. 

The other having plot holes so large that big the can fish in it. 

I'll admit, Shadow Fall didn't do it for me.  The art was too stiff (few money shots here and there), the conflict didn't really go anywhere, nor change anything in the end, but the biggest crime was how uninteresting Shadow was throughout the entire thing.  He's not as likeable as he was in his preboot days (arguably the best Shadow), only focuses on killing aliens and, I don't know, kinda lacks a lot of the substance and compassion he had previously.

However, Total Eclipse is probably one of my favourite preboot stories.  I wish they didn't bank so much on the "Whoa, check it out, Shadow and Knuckles are fighting now!", but I can't deny the easy money you get from that idea.  Really, I much prefer following Ecplise's story which weirdly had me sympathising with him.  I mean, after all, he did have noble intentions of keeping his family, or rather, the rest of his species safe.  Only hitch is that the species in question is the galactic equivalent of locusts.  The bit that sold it for me though was when he managed to beat Shads and Knux, but sees how exhausted and fed up the Dark Arms are, so he put them first and leaves, ergo putting vengeance against Shadow in second place.  That's what made that story so good for me.

Still wish Shadow wasn't as much of a complete, brooding jerk though...

[antyep]

I have a question; wasn't the next chapter of Lost Hedgehog Tales was supposed to come out before the end of December? What happened with that?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Well, I mean, what's there to say? Flynn obviously couldn't get it out in time.

Can't say I'm surprised, to be honest.

[antyep]

Yea, he is a busy man, unlike a certain someone who shall not be named XP

[Shadowlax]

On 1/1/2016 at 6:00 AM, QuantumEdge said:

I'll admit, Shadow Fall didn't do it for me.  The art was too stiff (few money shots here and there), the conflict didn't really go anywhere, nor change anything in the end, but the biggest crime was how uninteresting Shadow was throughout the entire thing.  He's not as likeable as he was in his preboot days (arguably the best Shadow), only focuses on killing aliens and, I don't know, kinda lacks a lot of the substance and compassion he had previously.

However, Total Eclipse is probably one of my favourite preboot stories.  I wish they didn't bank so much on the "Whoa, check it out, Shadow and Knuckles are fighting now!", but I can't deny the easy money you get from that idea.  Really, I much prefer following Ecplise's story which weirdly had me sympathising with him.  I mean, after all, he did have noble intentions of keeping his family, or rather, the rest of his species safe.  Only hitch is that the species in question is the galactic equivalent of locusts.  The bit that sold it for me though was when he managed to beat Shads and Knux, but sees how exhausted and fed up the Dark Arms are, so he put them first and leaves, ergo putting vengeance against Shadow in second place.  That's what made that story so good for me.

Still wish Shadow wasn't as much of a complete, brooding jerk though...

Spoiler

 

 

OK so there was a post here , disagreeing with you going in depth on the plot holes and the issues with knuckles. It was very long. If you still care to discuss this , we can. if you don't I'm not going to bother you with that long post. 

[QuantumEdge]

23 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Actually you say shadow was a jerk, he wasn't a jerk at all. In fact I would say that he was the most selfless character in that entire ark, well both of them. For one reason, shadow the hedgehog, the game  happened in that universe. Rouge and shadow himself specifically site that the events of shadow the hedgehog happen to the final ending happen in that universe. Why is that important? Simple, that means that knuckles, had context for the ending of shadow the hedgehog the entire time. Question? Do you remember shadow the hedgehog , or its ending, I'm not going to blame you if you don't that game wasn't the best but let me remind you .Black doom releases some paralytic gas onto the world, as it begins to drain its life force away and shadow is the only one, via DMC esque " i'm half demon" i'm half alien plot line. And in the context of this game, and the comic, these aliens can create more aliens, eclipse says himself he wants shadow to join him they were going to build an army. Shadow, has normal , a least we assume, whatever the hell mobian biology is, eclipse doesn't he was going to make those things. Which is something shadow also warned about , so you have aliens that can possible literally multiply by themselves like wild fire. Who's intent is to suck the life force out of the planet to survive and thrive like the zurg. A force you could not stop yourself in the last game. And knuckles reaction is " nah fuck you get off my lawn"? Knuckles was litterally the biggest asshole in the world. Even eggman confronted with info like that calls a truce, like sonic adventure 2. And he just tricked some girl into robotizing her handicapped sister. That guy, that ass hole, knows when to put his stuff behind him and play ball. But knuckles didn't even consider it. So shadow, went all " the needs of the many out way the needs of the one" and was like no you are actually an idiot , and have way too much attachment to some passed down legends by a people who were kind of assholes, thought themselves better than anyone else, and literally killed themselves in the main game canon. That's the hill knuckles decided to die on. Respecting the dead instead of saving the living. 

Oh you might be like " oh well... he didn't know where they were going to take the emerald" , they could have discussed it, its knuckles emerald, they could have found a place. Shadow has gone against the orders of gun, and rouge before, he probably would have been ok with whatever place knuckles found for it as long as it wasn't there. But knuckles instead of considering the options and discussing it like a ration hu... echidina. Goes, " nah fuck the entire planet, I don't like you shadow" that's it. Knuckles is a complete assshole in that entire ark, and there is no excuse. " Oh shadow didn't say it nice" I don't think niceties are necessary, on this level. Much like in real life, things are bigger than you , and the people who tell you that often aren't nice, and they have no obligation to. Knuckles wouldn't have even had to break the emerald if he would have just listened. Knuckles was his own worse enemy and whats worse, the fight he had with shadow makes him look bad, but we will get to that in a second. 

So my issues with shadow fall is contradictory to yours, i would argue you are blaming shadow for something that isn't his fault. Its not him, he's fine, its rouge omega and gun, who decide now of all times. Is the time where they want to say the least you can to shadow the hedgehog , your dante in this situation. Not a pep talk, nothing. He has to almost kill rouge to get her to say... anything and even the speech she gave wasn't needed because she was being mind controlled. The beginning of the ark begins with the gun general, or whatever telling rouge and omega not to trust shadow. Your boss just told you and your robo buddy not to trust your best friend/boyfriend maybe. I dunno, you think that would merit a conversation, something? They don't speak, there should have been a lot more talking,  and not only that, this ark and the knuckles ark goes to show how useless omega and rouge are to shadow in general. Rouges speech in both things, were irrelevant. The shadow fall speech was generic and irrelevant to the situation because shadow wasn't trying to hide anything, he was mind controlled. The speech in total eclipse irrelevant, not only was shadow right the whole time, that speech was so generic omega a damn robot could have given that speech and it would have had the same impact, hell omega making fun of the follow of organic organisms whilst telling them to get over themselves might have improved that speech. But we got the girl giving the ' idiot boys" speach. What makes it worse is that they are just useless, when confronted omega and rouge just end up as back of dancers, like in shadow fall or completely beaten like in total eclipse. Its sorta sad at this point , rouges character at this point is to not do anything big, or just to get beaten up and to cheer on shadow. Not to actually spy, which is her profession, which makes the entire premise of team dark stupid, because they really don't need each other to function. and would probably be better on their own.  And that's my issue with shadow fall. All it does is emphasize that.  Instead of selling a team, it sells shadow, and shows how much he just doesn't need them. He just needs to be teamed up with one friend who can give him a generic speech once in a while. 

So now that we have gotten past character interactions, lets just get to solid story telling issues. 

This one lies with total eclipse. 

Shadow and multiple points could have beaten both characters outright and ended whatever problem with ease. And these possibilities were either forgotten or intentionally ignored to push a fight between characters, who shouldn't really be fighting given knuckles has content for shadow's game, because it happened in universe. Ok you remember when shadow grabs the emerald and stops time? Queston didn't he... kill his boss with out a chaos emerald with a chaos blast? Why didn't he in the stopped time instead of wasting his time punching him,remove his inhibitor rings throw him in the air chaos blast and kill him. He could have done that, when knuckles came back eclipse could have been dead, but no. 

2nd plot hole, you remember when knuckles throws shadow away from the emerald. Question , why didn't shadow just teleport back to the emerald? In the arc before shadow teleports through a lot of space to get back into that ship. With out a chaos emerald, in total eclipse shadow just touched an emerald and was on an island with the strongest emerald in existance he may have not even needed to touch it. Why didn't he just teleport back to the emerald wait for knuckles whilist absorbing emerald power,knock him out. Because injured ( or possibly very injured and tired shadow, i'll explain the possibility later ) and tired from a prior fight shadow was able to choke knuckles out so bad he had to have an inner monolouge to beak the choke and save knuckles from drowning and still fight eclipse again. Master emerald shadow isn't even a fight. 

Two instances where they forget shadow has powers, to push some fight that really didn't need to happen that no one wanted. 

Ok so you remember when I say this was going to make knuckles look bad ok, so there are two possible future expansions for why shadow didn't do those things, and both of em make knuckles look bad. 

So option A, it was poorly written planned out, they needed to sell books, they weren't thinking. 

Option B, shadow didn't want to kill eclipse, felt sorry for him or something , and just blasted him away. Remember he knew eclipse was still alive, he was touching the master emerald, earlier he had put out enough power to kill his boss. He blasted eclipse's more powerful form though the stomach, you don't think he could have pushed out a bit more power to finish the job? Maybe he felt sorry for him, because like himself he felt eclipse was just a victim of circumstance? It would make sense. They did try to play eclipse actually is caring persona and is upset his family is now gone, it was all he knew. He cried when his boss died, to him what they were doing what they did, feasted on planets, like how we kill animals for food. He might not literally understand the situation, trying to figure out why shadow someone like him is doing this. Maybe showing all those scenes are precursor to shadow trying to help him later. And it would also explain why shadow says the line to knuckles about him finding new things to live for, shadow saving knuckles from the river and shadow being able to choke knuckes. He could just have just been humoring him the entire time, remember the last ark , shadow kills someone. He kills a lot of people, with ease. Maybe that was a bit of mentor shadow shining though. 

Option, C which I believe is the least likely. the events of shadow fall and total eclipse happen right after one enough, so shadow was tired. And during all the fighting gotten even more injured and tired. Which makes makes knuckles inability to not knock his butt out sort of embarrassing, and eclipse too. But , that isn't what I think it is. 

 

 

 

OK so this is thing in the spoilers is long, so i spoiled it. Its about total eclipse and shadow fall, I disagree with you. Shadow's actually a good character ,  would argue it was everyone else but relic who took a hit. Oh and omega. Knuckles is literally the worst during that ark. Anyways feel free to just not reply if you don't want to, its very long, i'm not even going to be upset if you don't bother to read it. 

Although I may still disagree, I do appreciate the effort you made in your reply.  No one's ever really given me a reply like that, so thanks for being the first person to really give me a debate to chew on.

On the problem with Total Eclipse and Shadow's choices, I think it all stems from the problem that's he's the most overpowered character in the franchise.  I know, I know, he's the Ultimate Life Form, that's kinda the idea, but the trouble I always have is his teleport ability (his Chaos Blast is also a problem, especially after seeing how imbalanced it was in Shadow Fall, but not the biggest one).  Add that with Sonic levels of speed and you really struggle to give him a threat that genuinely puts him in danger.  If it was only when he had an emerald that he could teleport, then it would improve things, but Ian doesn't go for that and we end up with the simple question of "Why didn't he just teleport?" on one too many occasions.  And that's one of Total Eclipse's biggest faults. 

As for your options, I'd say it was the simple idea of just wanting something to sell well.  And a hyped fight between Shadow and Knuckles is definitely an idea that can sell well because kids comic.  I highly doubt Shadow really had any mercy, pity or sympathy for Eclipse, since there wasn't even so much as a single panel where he thought deeply about it.

As for your argument that Knuckles is in the wrong about the ME, well yeah, I guess so, but it feels disappointing that Shadow can only argue his point like a complete jerk (there's a difference between explaining your better argument with sternness than aggression) and then go into fisticuffs without really giving Knuckles at least something of a more in depth explanation.  Knuckles is kind of a blockhead, you need talk to him with more reason than that.  I can't help but feel that if this story happened in the old canon, then the Shadow back then could've handled it with a little more intelligence and not being so much of a dirtbag.  He was more balanced as a character then, less angry with others, but more with himself at times, now it seems the other way around.

To get to Shadow Fall, I'd say there was likely more a need of someone to voice concern to Shadow.  However I can't say the idea of Team Dark doesn't work.  The starting idea (back when Heroes was new) was really good - three people all wanting something from Eggman and join up to get to him quicker.  I liked how it turned out then.  Unfortunately that idea wrapped up at the end of Heroes as well, so the team's best use was left as short, sweet and to the point, well scratch that last part since there's more than a good few plot holes in that story...

As a team working for GUN, it feels like a dead end that their only use now is as their personal furry Avengers unit sent on one mission after another whenever their drafted into any new stories these days.  The idea of Team Dark can definitely work, they just need something to change up their goals and position in a way that makes sense in them being a team.

Besides, it's more Shadow Fall's story that's the main culprit here.  It failed on your side in not making sense of Team Dark, or giving Omega and Rouge good enough supporting roles and it failed on my side for making Shadow much less enjoyable to read than he used to be.  In short, we can agree that Shadow Fall wasn't the best, we just can't agree on why it wasn't the best.

That's all I can say on it really.  It's likely not the best argument, but I'm new to the whole debating scene.

[blade57331]

On 31.12.2015 at 9:35 PM, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

That's still false regarding all the other Sonic characters. Shadow has shown happiness, anger, shock, concern, and heck he's even smiled in this rebooted universe. And more imporantly, he especially shows dedication, sticking to what he swore to Gerald and Maria about protecting the Earth from the Black Arms, even if it means going against his "brother" Eclipse. And with this being closer to the games, this is highlighted because we know his past and why he chooses the path he chose in his life. We know his motives and attitude, we know his past, and we know his current life. That's 3 Dimensions in itself (actually, that still fits Lajos Egri's definition anyway, now that I put it that way...)

Those are like 4 basic emotions that EVERY main character display in almost any decent kind of story and even then Shadow barely show it but whatever. You said "even if it means going against his "brother" Eclipse" like it suppose be some kind of emotion struggle for him, it isn't. That's a thing. That's what I meant by two-dimensiona. That he reacts on everything more or less the same. Even when they gave him "brother" figure, he is alll like "Revenge! I'm going kill you" and that's about it.

And about other characters. I meant more their game-counterparts (recently specially)

Also Shadowlax

You are saying that Knuckles was against taking M.E. because he can't let go his heritage. How do you know it's not also partly because he doesn't trust them with M.E.? 

Shadow also at one point was danger for the planet which already put him in Knuckles mind as potentially threat(which is reasonable) , then we have GUN organization that have their dark past with whole ARC accident and then we have Rouge, a girl that many times tried to take his emerald. Not to mention Snively.

Hell, he didin't even told them about finding emerald or ghost that suppose save the world. He clearly doesn't find them as allies. In their fight with Eclpise he even still see Shadow as treat to M.E. (despite the fact that they fight on the same side now) which confirms that he simple doesn't trust him.

Thought, now that I think about it M.E. could give Shadow a temporary boost to fight with Knuckles. Just like Scourge got it and was able to beat both Shadow and Sonic.

 

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

Although I may still disagree, I do appreciate the effort you made in your reply.  No one's ever really given me a reply like that, so thanks for being the first person to really give me a debate to chew on.

On the problem with Total Eclipse and Shadow's choices, I think it all stems from the problem that's he's the most overpowered character in the franchise.  I know, I know, he's the Ultimate Life Form, that's kinda the idea, but the trouble I always have is his teleport ability (his Chaos Blast is also a problem, especially after seeing how imbalanced it was in Shadow Fall, but not the biggest one).  Add that with Sonic levels of speed and you really struggle to give him a threat that genuinely puts him in danger.  If it was only when he had an emerald that he could teleport, then it would improve things, but Ian doesn't go for that and we end up with the simple question of "Why didn't he just teleport?" on one too many occasions.  And that's one of Total Eclipse's biggest faults. 

As for your options, I'd say it was the simple idea of just wanting something to sell well.  And a hyped fight between Shadow and Knuckles is definitely an idea that can sell well because kids comic.  I highly doubt Shadow really had any mercy, pity or sympathy for Eclipse, since there wasn't even so much as a single panel where he thought deeply about it.

As for your argument that Knuckles is in the wrong about the ME, well yeah, I guess so, but it feels disappointing that Shadow can only argue his point like a complete jerk (there's a difference between explaining your better argument with sternness than aggression) and then go into fisticuffs without really giving Knuckles at least something of a more in depth explanation.  Knuckles is kind of a blockhead, you need talk to him with more reason than that.  I can't help but feel that if this story happened in the old canon, then the Shadow back then could've handled it with a little more intelligence and not being so much of a dirtbag.  He was more balanced as a character then, less angry with others, but more with himself at times, now it seems the other way around.

To get to Shadow Fall, I'd say there was likely more a need of someone to voice concern to Shadow.  However I can't say the idea of Team Dark doesn't work.  The starting idea (back when Heroes was new) was really good - three people all wanting something from Eggman and join up to get to him quicker.  I liked how it turned out then.  Unfortunately that idea wrapped up at the end of Heroes as well, so the team's best use was left as short, sweet and to the point, well scratch that last part since there's more than a good few plot holes in that story...

As a team working for GUN, it feels like a dead end that their only use now is as their personal furry Avengers unit sent on one mission after another whenever their drafted into any new stories these days.  The idea of Team Dark can definitely work, they just need something to change up their goals and position in a way that makes sense in them being a team.

Besides, it's more Shadow Fall's story that's the main culprit here.  It failed on your side in not making sense of Team Dark, or giving Omega and Rouge good enough supporting roles and it failed on my side for making Shadow much less enjoyable to read than he used to be.  In short, we can agree that Shadow Fall wasn't the best, we just can't agree on why it wasn't the best.

That's all I can say on it really.  It's likely not the best argument, but I'm new to the whole debating scene.

Imma try and keep this short see if we can compact some of these posts a bit. I'll see , i say that and end up writing more anyways. 

Spoiler

 

To start at the end of your post, to be honest its fine, you have a preference, clearly its cool. I'm just glad you were interested in that long ass post , I went as so far as deleting it because I thought you wouldn't be interested in it at all. So that's interesting. 

So back to the top of the post, I think shadow being powerful as hell not only makes him more interesting, makes sonic more interesting and makes the world more interesting. It keeps sonic on his toes, ( and having explanations like fighting time displaced version on the characters) and it keeps the characters motivations interesting. Shadow, blaze and silver are 3 characters  when taken out of crap plot armor game stuff are extremely powerful charters. And they have this sense of responsibility. Yeah sonic and co are sorta heroic, but knuckles in arc in question even sonic shows they are kind of doing it thrown into situations. Shadow joined the organization who tried to kill him to keep tabs on them and because he thought they could actually people. He could have torn that place down, heck shadow proved that they are largely afraid of shadow. ( maybe they should make an arc about that, maybe shadow being a fugitive from gun because someone who hates him, maybe someone who lost their family during his game, scape goats him. I dunno). He does what he does because he believes it the right thing, blaze and silver are simular in the regard. they are motivated by duty, they aren't from the best of circumstances and are hurt people, but they have powers and will use them to help. Knuckles is simular, but his is more tradition than duty, shadow tries to relate to him in total eclipse in that regard. 

I read a lot of comic books I love them, one of the ones I read to use as an example is the martian manhunter, martian man hunter is so powerful the entire justice league ( main) including super man himself couldn't take him out. (  How do they keep that character interesting, well one things like shadow  his powers aren't super basic like super man so no one complains about him like super man. You notice how no one complains about the time stop power in jojo's bizzare adventure or the speed force too much, because those are more complicated to explain and use than "I can fly and punch the guy hard, i'm superman woo") And two because when folks do beat him or get his goat, similar to the flash they have done things. They have come up with some stuff to get him. Or they are very powerful. Its sort of respect to the characters, clearly knuckles isn't smart. But good example of this would be if tails in comic  book was the only person to ever definitely beat shadow in a 1 on 1 fight, because he was just smarter than he was. What you do instead of throwing powerful characters like that at everything you make the stuff more about interaction , and possibly helping people and you make the fights smarter not harder. Its one of the reasons I think if shadow ever got a solo book i would want him not to be in team dark just helping people. It would play more to his characters and different characters would figure out ways to beat em up. With out them having to forget powers, magically. Because shadow isn't by any means dumb. Socially inept sure, dumb?  No, no way he would forget he could do that.  

To close this bit of response all out, to compare sonic to street fighter. Shadow, blaze and silver are much like Cody, Dahlsim and Rose respectively they are extremely powerful, even more powerful than ryu. It keeps it interesting when you have characters who could rock the main character's shit in. 

To next part of the response 

Its probably sell well, I hope its B. B would be WAY more interesting. Heck you could probably get decent team dark interaction out of it. If rouge calls shadow out on that, and shadow is like " well you do anything, oh you can't " and they start arguing or something. Though its probably A if worlds unite is any indication, " No, no kill shadow , push humans, that what folks want , not shadow fighting zero or any of the guests actually doing anything "  I'm going to stop here, I don't need to say more on worlds unite, everyone knows that was bad. 

I don't think shadow argued his point like a jerk at all, remember the beginning, shadow was blunt but respectful. Knuckles started giving him shit as soon as he got on the island, he only started showing disrespect when knuckles gave it out. And in the end , as I explained, shadow as blunt as he was, was doing it for the greater good. Knuckles had context. The man trying to save the world hurt your feelings, big whoop, get over  it. I'm sorry you are trying to argue shadow was mean, there is no excuse, if shadow came in and explained nothing and started attacking knuckles. Sure, fine shadow's a huge asshole, but he came in calm respectful, and even got hurt doing knuckles job for him. Nah dude, knuckles was a huge asshole. 

I have to say team dark doesn't work. Rouge is a spy, a scout. Yeah she has some combat experience, but she is best gathering information. That's how she's introduced to us, spying and thieving. There is no reason to send her on front lines mission and she isn't like a tech wiz or anything heck sonic runners I believe goes so far to call her a bit " daft" so I think they actually canonically lowered the theoretical IQ of this character. So she doesn't even need to radio in to shadow like the codec calls in mgs, she could just give him an info briefing before the mission and be done with it.  Her and shadow shouldn't be in the same room let alone the same mission. I kind of get shadow fall because maybe an emotional connection, but that isn't played up and that doesn't really explain every other time. As you and I both said, both of those speeches could have been given by anyone. Heck the story would have worked if it had been tails who discovered the black arms were coming enlisted shadow's help a couple other friends and talked over intercom. I'm not the " ship" type. But if there was ever a time to suggest maybe rouge REALLY likes shadow, and that actual would have beneficial instead of playing up dumb drama, that might have been the time. That would have explained her silence, that would have explained her speech near the end, and would explained why she didn't tell shadow what that guy, the general guy said at the beginning. But she said nothing so... it was weird, and they really didn't need to be there. 

Gun doesn't work and wouldn't mind if they magically dissapeared. Or got destroyed. Or something.

And I sorta agree with you , plot holes aside, we got some alright fights in total eclipse. Shadow fall was just, weird non talking into shadow murdering someone in one go. Yeah, shadow murdering someone one and no one saying anything about it is funny, but yeah it wasn't... it wasn't very good. 

 

Ok that was, long, spoiled. 

Thing that blaze said because the new update ruined the quote system. 

Those are like 4 basic emotions that EVERY main character display in almost any decent kind of story and even then Shadow barely show it but whatever. You said "even if it means going against his "brother" Eclipse" like it suppose be some kind of emotion struggle for him, it isn't. That's a thing. That's what I meant by two-dimensiona. That he reacts on everything more or less the same. Even when they gave him "brother" figure, he is alll like "Revenge! I'm going kill you" and that's about it.

And about other characters. I meant more their game-counterparts (recently specially)

Also Shadowlax

You are saying that Knuckles was against taking M.E. because he can't let go his heritage. How do you know it's not also partly because he doesn't trust them with M.E.? 

Shadow also at one point was danger for the planet which already put him in Knuckles mind as potentially threat(which is reasonable) , then we have GUN organization that have their dark past with whole ARC accident and then we have Rouge, a girl that many times tried to take his emerald. Not to mention Snively.

Hell, he didin't even told them about finding emerald or ghost that suppose save the world. He clearly doesn't find them as allies. In their fight with Eclpise he even still see Shadow as treat to M.E. (despite the fact that they fight on the same side now) which confirms that he simple doesn't trust him.

Thought, now that I think about it M.E. could give Shadow a temporary boost to fight with Knuckles. Just like Scourge got it and was able to beat both Shadow and Sonic.

 

 

 

IN order

Ahem

As I mentioned in my response he has context for being able to trust shadow, having context for the threat at hand and how serious shadow is about. In fact knuckles has the most content, because shadow had to kill the thing that knuckles had taken away from him. His family, his people. Every time shadow beats out black arms, he is killing someone related to him. Knuckles of all people should have possibly considered how serious this is for the man he was speaking with. That's like knuckes coming up to sonic to enlist his help in destroying an eggman branded chilidog factory. Also he knows shadow is cool, he could have been like' Sure we'll take it but i'll show you were we are going " shadow has no reason to not go with knuckles suggestion dude lives on a largely unexplored island the sky. He probably knows lots of holes in the wall on mobias he could stash that shit. He doesn't have to trust gun , he can trust shadow. 

Shadow being a bad guy was way before shadow the hedgehog, and waaaaay before the reboot. And considering knuckles also use to help eggman, the person in this universe who has taken over large sections of the planet turning folks into robots? He doesn't really have too much room in the blame game situation. Especially considering if we are talking about sonic adventure , shadow was a week old before gun came and got him, so he didn't know anything but revenge, would make a possible connection to eclipse on that level interesting.And when shadow figured it out, he was going to sacrifice his life to save the planet he tried to destroy. Knuckles willingly helped a bad guy several times. Because fuck sonic, and while yes that's funny. he still did that. 

Him not viewing them as friends, my be more stupid at this point.  Along with that maybe knowing his own situation, maybe moving the ME might have been a good idea anyway. Knuckles is stupid, knuckles is stupid and asshole. 

No reason shadow couldn't have just done that, like scourge. Heck given shadow's abilities he may have been able to absorb way more energy than scourge or sonic. A master emerald level chaos blast? DUUUDE. 

[Sonictrainer]

4 hours ago, blade57331 said:

Hell, he didin't even told them about finding emerald or ghost that suppose save the world.

....wait, what?

[QuantumEdge]

51 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Imma try and keep this short see if we can compact some of these posts a bit. I'll see , i say that and end up writing more anyways. 

  Hide contents

 

To start at the end of your post, to be honest its fine, you have a preference, clearly its cool. I'm just glad you were interested in that long ass post , I went as so far as deleting it because I thought you wouldn't be interested in it at all. So that's interesting. 

So back to the top of the post, I think shadow being powerful as hell not only makes him more interesting, makes sonic more interesting and makes the world more interesting. It keeps sonic on his toes, ( and having explanations like fighting time displaced version on the characters) and it keeps the characters motivations interesting. Shadow, blaze and silver are 3 characters  when taken out of crap plot armor game stuff are extremely powerful charters. And they have this sense of responsibility. Yeah sonic and co are sorta heroic, but knuckles in arc in question even sonic shows they are kind of doing it thrown into situations. Shadow joined the organization who tried to kill him to keep tabs on them and because he thought they could actually people. He could have torn that place down, heck shadow proved that they are largely afraid of shadow. ( maybe they should make an arc about that, maybe shadow being a fugitive from gun because someone who hates him, maybe someone who lost their family during his game, scape goats him. I dunno). He does what he does because he believes it the right thing, blaze and silver are simular in the regard. they are motivated by duty, they aren't from the best of circumstances and are hurt people, but they have powers and will use them to help. Knuckles is simular, but his is more tradition than duty, shadow tries to relate to him in total eclipse in that regard. 

I read a lot of comic books I love them, one of the ones I read to use as an example is the martian manhunter, martian man hunter is so powerful the entire justice league ( main) including super man himself couldn't take him out. (  How do they keep that character interesting, well one things like shadow  his powers aren't super basic like super man so no one complains about him like super man. You notice how no one complains about the time stop power in jojo's bizzare adventure or the speed force too much, because those are more complicated to explain and use than "I can fly and punch the guy hard, i'm superman woo") And two because when folks do beat him or get his goat, similar to the flash they have done things. They have come up with some stuff to get him. Or they are very powerful. Its sort of respect to the characters, clearly knuckles isn't smart. But good example of this would be if tails in comic  book was the only person to ever definitely beat shadow in a 1 on 1 fight, because he was just smarter than he was. What you do instead of throwing powerful characters like that at everything you make the stuff more about interaction , and possibly helping people and you make the fights smarter not harder. Its one of the reasons I think if shadow ever got a solo book i would want him not to be in team dark just helping people. It would play more to his characters and different characters would figure out ways to beat em up. With out them having to forget powers, magically. Because shadow isn't by any means dumb. Socially inept sure, dumb?  No, no way he would forget he could do that.  

To close this bit of response all out, to compare sonic to street fighter. Shadow, blaze and silver are much like Cody, Dahlsim and Rose respectively they are extremely powerful, even more powerful than ryu. It keeps it interesting when you have characters who could rock the main character's shit in. 

To next part of the response 

Its probably sell well, I hope its B. B would be WAY more interesting. Heck you could probably get decent team dark interaction out of it. If rouge calls shadow out on that, and shadow is like " well you do anything, oh you can't " and they start arguing or something. Though its probably A if worlds unite is any indication, " No, no kill shadow , push humans, that what folks want , not shadow fighting zero or any of the guests actually doing anything "  I'm going to stop here, I don't need to say more on worlds unite, everyone knows that was bad. 

I don't think shadow argued his point like a jerk at all, remember the beginning, shadow was blunt but respectful. Knuckles started giving him shit as soon as he got on the island, he only started showing disrespect when knuckles gave it out. And in the end , as I explained, shadow as blunt as he was, was doing it for the greater good. Knuckles had context. The man trying to save the world hurt your feelings, big whoop, get over  it. I'm sorry you are trying to argue shadow was mean, there is no excuse, if shadow came in and explained nothing and started attacking knuckles. Sure, fine shadow's a huge asshole, but he came in calm respectful, and even got hurt doing knuckles job for him. Nah dude, knuckles was a huge asshole. 

I have to say team dark doesn't work. Rouge is a spy, a scout. Yeah she has some combat experience, but she is best gathering information. That's how she's introduced to us, spying and thieving. There is no reason to send her on front lines mission and she isn't like a tech wiz or anything heck sonic runners I believe goes so far to call her a bit " daft" so I think they actually canonically lowered the theoretical IQ of this character. So she doesn't even need to radio in to shadow like the codec calls in mgs, she could just give him an info briefing before the mission and be done with it.  Her and shadow shouldn't be in the same room let alone the same mission. I kind of get shadow fall because maybe an emotional connection, but that isn't played up and that doesn't really explain every other time. As you and I both said, both of those speeches could have been given by anyone. Heck the story would have worked if it had been tails who discovered the black arms were coming enlisted shadow's help a couple other friends and talked over intercom. I'm not the " ship" type. But if there was ever a time to suggest maybe rouge REALLY likes shadow, and that actual would have beneficial instead of playing up dumb drama, that might have been the time. That would have explained her silence, that would have explained her speech near the end, and would explained why she didn't tell shadow what that guy, the general guy said at the beginning. But she said nothing so... it was weird, and they really didn't need to be there. 

Gun doesn't work and wouldn't mind if they magically dissapeared. Or got destroyed. Or something.

And I sorta agree with you , plot holes aside, we got some alright fights in total eclipse. Shadow fall was just, weird non talking into shadow murdering someone in one go. Yeah, shadow murdering someone one and no one saying anything about it is funny, but yeah it wasn't... it wasn't very good. 

 

Ok that was, long, spoiled. 

Thing that blaze said because the new update ruined the quote system. 

 

 

IN order

Ahem

As I mentioned in my response he has context for being able to trust shadow, having context for the threat at hand and how serious shadow is about. In fact knuckles has the most content, because shadow had to kill the thing that knuckles had taken away from him. His family, his people. Every time shadow beats out black arms, he is killing someone related to him. Knuckles of all people should have possibly considered how serious this is for the man he was speaking with. That's like knuckes coming up to sonic to enlist his help in destroying an eggman branded chilidog factory. Also he knows shadow is cool, he could have been like' Sure we'll take it but i'll show you were we are going " shadow has no reason to not go with knuckles suggestion dude lives on a largely unexplored island the sky. He probably knows lots of holes in the wall on mobias he could stash that shit. He doesn't have to trust gun , he can trust shadow. 

Shadow being a bad guy was way before shadow the hedgehog, and waaaaay before the reboot. And considering knuckles also use to help eggman, the person in this universe who has taken over large sections of the planet turning folks into robots? He doesn't really have too much room in the blame game situation. Especially considering if we are talking about sonic adventure , shadow was a week old before gun came and got him, so he didn't know anything but revenge, would make a possible connection to eclipse on that level interesting.And when shadow figured it out, he was going to sacrifice his life to save the planet he tried to destroy. Knuckles willingly helped a bad guy several times. Because fuck sonic, and while yes that's funny. he still did that. 

Him not viewing them as friends, my be more stupid at this point.  Along with that maybe knowing his own situation, maybe moving the ME might have been a good idea anyway. Knuckles is stupid, knuckles is stupid and asshole. 

No reason shadow couldn't have just done that, like scourge. Heck given shadow's abilities he may have been able to absorb way more energy than scourge or sonic. A master emerald level chaos blast? DUUUDE. 

I understand the part that Knux wasn't exactly helping himself, or anyone else in that situation, but a way of explaining why is that after so many years of doing the same job, upholding the same traditions and knowing how dangerously powerful the ME is, he's become paranoid about it.  Like someone wanting all the furniture in their bedroom to be in the right places.  He doesn't know GUN that well, he doesn't know Shadow very well and while he may no Rouge well, it's not been in the most positive light.  Add this paranoia with a short temper and general blockheadedness and you have yourself someone that can only really be reasoned with using rational, calm explanation.  Shadow doesn't really do that, simply states what's going to happen (in his mind) without even thinking that Knuckles may need a little more convincing since he clearly wasn't interested in the whole thing escalating into a fight.

As for Shadow's powers, I still think they need to be dialled back (can teleport only so long before it tires him out, or we go back to the Chaos Blast severely draining him of energy instead of him recovering with ease, I don't know).  I can let Silver slide because he's really naïve and young, just starting to fully understand what he's capable of, but Shadow's more experienced and has a greater selection of powers.  It makes it really difficult for a writer to intelligently make a story where he actually struggles (the mind control thing worked, but that was a one trick pony) to defeat the villain even with his almighty power.  Maybe they could find some sort of ultimate weakness for Shadow, his own kryptonite, as a means of making his challenges more arduous, I don't know. 

And as for GUN, well, I'd say it's about time that either Ian does something big with them, or just pushes them more and more into the background without doing the same to Team Dark.  Yes, Rouge is more a spy if anything, but it helps that Shadow can have some back up in the small possibility that he can't take something by himself, or have a voice of reason around, since she hardly has competition in a sociopathic, pyromaniac of a walking arsenal.

[blade57331]

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

IN order

Ahem

As I mentioned in my response he has context for being able to trust shadow, having context for the threat at hand and how serious shadow is about. In fact knuckles has the most content, because shadow had to kill the thing that knuckles had taken away from him. His family, his people. Every time shadow beats out black arms, he is killing someone related to him. Knuckles of all people should have possibly considered how serious this is for the man he was speaking with. That's like knuckes coming up to sonic to enlist his help in destroying an eggman branded chilidog factory. Also he knows shadow is cool, he could have been like' Sure we'll take it but i'll show you were we are going " shadow has no reason to not go with knuckles suggestion dude lives on a largely unexplored island the sky. He probably knows lots of holes in the wall on mobias he could stash that shit. He doesn't have to trust gun , he can trust shadow. 

Shadow being a bad guy was way before shadow the hedgehog, and waaaaay before the reboot. And considering knuckles also use to help eggman, the person in this universe who has taken over large sections of the planet turning folks into robots? He doesn't really have too much room in the blame game situation. Especially considering if we are talking about sonic adventure , shadow was a week old before gun came and got him, so he didn't know anything but revenge, would make a possible connection to eclipse on that level interesting.And when shadow figured it out, he was going to sacrifice his life to save the planet he tried to destroy. Knuckles willingly helped a bad guy several times. Because fuck sonic, and while yes that's funny. he still did that. 

Him not viewing them as friends, my be more stupid at this point.  Along with that maybe knowing his own situation, maybe moving the ME might have been a good idea anyway. Knuckles is stupid, knuckles is stupid and asshole. 

No reason shadow couldn't have just done that, like scourge. Heck given shadow's abilities he may have been able to absorb way more energy than scourge or sonic. A master emerald level chaos blast? DUUUDE. 

"shadow has no reason to not go with knuckles suggestion" - Shadow didn't care for Knuckles'(or other's) suggestion. Shadow himself said that taking M.E. to GUN is not a discussion as he was about to take M.E. right away.

"he knows shadow is cool"  - um, not really. Like I said Shadow at one point was enemy. He has no reason to trust Shadow. Knuckles helped Eggman but that was for the different resons(not to destroy the world). Knuckles knowing context of Shadow's background doesn't mean shit. It's not any reason to trust him.

"Him not viewing them as friends, my be more stupid at this point." Why? Rouge, Shadow and GUN are not his friends, they never were. Not giving any of them M.E. is completly understandable. Knuckles bearly knows them, except Rouge(who many times tried take his emerald away)

"Along with that maybe knowing his own situation, maybe moving the ME might have been a good idea anyway." - I'm sure Snively would be waiting for them with banner "M.E? STAGE RIGHT!" Yeah sure, great idea!

1 hour ago, Sonictrainer said:

....wait, what?

The Great Chaos Caper - Chip

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

6 hours ago, blade57331 said:

Those are like 4 basic emotions that EVERY main character display in almost any decent kind of story and even then Shadow barely show it but whatever. You said "even if it means going against his "brother" Eclipse" like it suppose be some kind of emotion struggle for him, it isn't. That's a thing. That's what I meant by two-dimensiona. That he reacts on everything more or less the same. Even when they gave him "brother" figure, he is alll like "Revenge! I'm going kill you" and that's about it.

And about other characters. I meant more their game-counterparts (recently specially)

And again, that's not being two dimensional, nor is any of what you said true. All your doing is saying "he has basic emotions everyone has" and "going against his "brother" isn't a struggle", while flat out ignoring everything else about the character in favor of a complete strawman to justify your point when he actually another dimension you aren't taking into account: his past that influences his actions and emotion as a character (i.e. the third dimension of his character), which is the whole reason he fights against Eclipse regardless of their connection. And I never said he struggled to make that choice (he was struggling more on the mind control thing), I actually said he was showing dedication to his choices and actions.

Like seriously dude, it spells all of this in the very definition you gave me.

You say:

• "Those are like 4 basic emotions that EVERY main character display in almost any decent kind of story"

The Definition for Two Dimensional characters says:

• they show one emotion or character trait.

And in actuality, and by your very admition, Shadow has show more than one emotion or trait, starting with those 4 basic emotions plus other traits which I'll get into.

You say:

• "That he reacts on everything more or less the same. Even when they gave him "brother" figure, he is alll like "Revenge! I'm going kill you" and that's about it."

The Definition for Two Dimension characters says:

• They show a little bit of character through the reactions and emotions, but everything they reveal is of a one-track nature that's somewhat undeveloped and often lacking reason, explanation, or depth.

When in actuality, Shadow has never sworn revenge on Eclipse for one (did you actually read that arc?), but he's wanting to kill Eclipse because he is a threat to the world he swore to protect. He has shown more of his character through his reactions and emotions by firmly resisting Eclipse's offers to join his side, again through the conviction he made to Professor Gerald in protecting the world from the likes of the Black Arms. But with that sense of protection comes another side of him: hard-headedness and a small inconsideration of others in his way of accomplishing his tasks of doing what he feels is right, both sides of him he uses to continue defying Eclipse, but at the same time these are what gets him into a fight with Knuckles later down the line when he goes to Angel Island to secure the Master Emerald. And even then, he's trying to convince Knuckles that he can find another purpose in his life, just like he had - that's not exactly reacting on everything more or less the same, because when was the last time (if ever) we've seen Shadow try to broaden someone's options in life, even if he's going about it the most bullheaded way possible? Nevermind the complete difference in his usual character when he freaks out at Relic and Snively's faces changing into monsters thanks to Eclipse's influence - that is not a typical Shadow reaction.

That in itself has reason, explanation, and depth all in one dude. So as a result, Shadow doesn't fit into the category of "two-dimensional," because he's actually three-dimensional.

And even with the other characters, you're still ignoring the sides of them that add more, things that the games themselves hardly touched upon since arguably the Adventures. Nevermind that the comics are more than just the games, but the cartoons and new material as well, which adds new layers to the characters that the games refuse to touch on.