Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Dantemustdie00]

The only thing that killed my hype was this damn delay

[MetalSkulkBane]

12 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Total eclipse is a fun lesson in how to write gigantic plot holes to push a fight that really wouldn't nor needed to happen. 

 

Also thanks for reminded me about the dead books, I am the sad now. 

Sorry ^^;

And actually I don't think that REASON for fight was bad. In fact it was brilliant. Shadow was created to stop Black Arms. Knuckles spend his whole life protecting Master Emerald. They both fought for the reason of their existence, with Knuckles hot heads and Shadow slightly shady morality (read: he will do anything to achieve his goal) this was pretty natural fight. Just compare it to story of Sonic Battle or Heroes or even Rivals.

What was lame was the fact that it ended with a tie. Because those fights ALWAYS end with a tie. I know I know, "spectacle", but when I know exactly what will happen, it feels like waste of pages. Also, Shadow was weaker after fighting Eclipse. Wouldn't that make sense for Knuckles to win?

Apparently answer is "We don't want to annoy  Shadow fanboys", but honestly, if someone isn't willing to live something like that down. is that person worth appealing to?

 

...Sorry for rambling, pointless hero fights are my sensitive spot.

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Sorry ^^;

And actually I don't think that REASON for fight was bad. In fact it was brilliant. Shadow was created to stop Black Arms. Knuckles spend his whole life protecting Master Emerald. They both fought for the reason of their existence, with Knuckles hot heads and Shadow slightly shady morality (read: he will do anything to achieve his goal) this was pretty natural fight. Just compare it to story of Sonic Battle or Heroes or even Rivals.

What was lame was the fact that it ended with a tie. Because those fights ALWAYS end with a tie. I know I know, "spectacle", but when I know exactly what will happen, it feels like waste of pages. Also, Shadow was weaker after fighting Eclipse. Wouldn't that make sense for Knuckles to win?

Apparently answer is "We don't want to annoy  Shadow fanboys", but honestly, if someone isn't willing to live something like that down. is that person worth appealing to?

 

...Sorry for rambling, pointless hero fights are my sensitive spot.

No

Shadow should have won both fights actually, multiple ways. Like there are giant ass plot holes. We can get into it if you want? The plot moves fast so folks dont notice, but yeah master emerald sized plot holes.

As far as the fight, i maintain nah it was dumb. Knuckles had knowledge of shadows game and knew the level of threat. And instead of trying to come up with a plan was immediately hostile for no reason. The last time he fought the black arms he knewed he was rendered useless. Rouge references this specifically. Knuckles wanted to be an asshole. If they would have co operated eclipse would be a stain. And honestly given knuckles limited experience with shadow. It should have been that.

 

Edit: also I have never heard the shadow fanboy's answer and I don't think thats a actual thing. because while yes, the pre boot stuff is non canon, it did sort of address this. Sonic saying how when he did stuff he felt winded and shadow just seemed to keep going. Shadow is a being who with regular food and water, can pretty much self sustain and live forever. The idea that a being who can live... theoretically forever having way higher stamina reserves than you do, particularly one who uses a fuck ton of his energy teleporting throwing blasts and running, makes sense. Heck its one of the only things that make sense in the comic. In the comic prior, shadow with out a choas emerald, releases a chaos blast so powerfull it killed a guy, like legit shadow murdered some one in shadow fall. Super hard, and then teleported through like miles of space to his ship. One fight with eclipse where he used no where near the amount of his full power, ( even though he should have , if you want to talk about plot points we can get that) that one one fight wouldn't have wore him out. 

[Big Panda]

What are the plotholes in Total Eclipse?

[Shadowlax]

45 minutes ago, Detective Panda said:

What are the plotholes in Total Eclipse?

" Oh hey eclipse, i am by the master emerald, instead of say, stopping time, throwing you up in the air, teleporting and doing a chaos blast and killing you like your dad, i'm going to just punch you and shoot you super hard , even though I could have ended the problem right there. But even more effective and even more power because when i killed your dad, I didn't even have chaos emeralds, but now i'm beside the most powerful one"

" hey eclipse, I could have also just gone super shadow and killed you on the spot because i'm beside an emerald with more power than the than alll the emeralds. Which is the point of this plo... but whatever"

" Oh hey knuckles you threw me away from the master emerald, its not like I can't wait for you to catch up with me, teleport back to the emerald, wait for you to catch up again, would have been absorbing chaos power the entire time and bopped you like a wack a mole machine. Nope, totally couldn't have done that at all. Having the most powerful emerald in existance besides me, basically a master of chaos powers, totally a fine plot idea. its not like merely being besides emeralds gives me powers, like iizuka said himself. So being beside... the most powerful emerald wouldn't make me super invincible or whatever. Its almost as if there was a reason sonic team never actually let me, shadow, besides the M.E, besides like once, anyways, lets fight"

 

Edit: and the m.e keeps angel island afloat. The moment he stepped foot on that place he should have been getting powered up. Let alone right beside the master emerald.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 He won, didn't he? Taking off inhibitors is last resort strategy, it's draining for Shadow. He would do it if he had to. (Plus, it would be boring from story perspective)

2 It's not clear how going Super works with Master Emeralad. Again, he DID used ME power to win, so what's the difference?

3 There are several answers. Maybe Knuckles can block connection to the ME, maybe Shadow thought "Bah, I can take him." or most probably he WASN'T thinking. He got punched he wanted to punch back. I really hate when people say stuff like "PLOT HOLE: Why character didn't do X?". Because they didn't' THOUGH to to use X. You think you're so smart sitting on a coach, drinking cocoa and coming up with solutions, hours after reading a story, while main characters had adrenaline rush, had to act instantly and was probably injured. Fact that character can't come up to same conclusion as you is NOT a plothole. (Also, eclipse messed with Shadow's brain, he wasn't thinkint straight.)

4 (Your previous post, why Knuckles "was a jerk": Because they already had a plan: to take ME from him. He said "no" and they ignored him. What was he suppose to do, sent reprimand letter to GUN? And yes, Knuckles knows about threat of Black Arms, but he wasn't as you said "rendered useless". He fought aliens just fine, he was defeated by a gas, one that is no longer a threat. There is no Comet, no Invasion forces, No Black Doom, just a single alien. Knuckles probably though he can take him. (Then again, Knuckles wasn't thinking clear either. He's was protecting ME, that's the only think that mattered to him in that moment. He's a hot head and he spent his whole life protecting this rock. Plus with Snively in GUN Knuckles might done the right thing after all.)

 

The only thing I can agree with you is that Eclipse would have no chance if they worked together, but that's the tragedy of whole thing.

[Your Vest Friend]

You can't go super with the Master Emerald unless you're a robot (in which case it probably doesn't stand up to organic super forms because it harnesses raw energy instead of the nuance). Its purpose is to nullify the Chaos Emeralds, so the energy from it likely doesn't work the same way.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

If we're going by Pre-Reboot, it's possible for anyone to go Super with the Master Emerald, at least those who can tap into Chaos Energy, as shown in Enerjak Reborn when Sonic taps into the corrupted Master Emerald to go super form to stop Knuckles once and for all. 

Post-Reboot, we have no conclusive evidence either way.

[Your Vest Friend]

Post-reboot is like the games, if the stance on Super Knuckles and Super Tails are any indication (aka Ian's been told the same thing as what we saw in the bible).

[Sonictrainer]

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

One fight with eclipse where he used no where near the amount of his full power, ( even though he should have , if you want to talk about plot points we can get that) that one one fight wouldn't have wore him out. 

Are we really going to ignore the fact that Eclipse was literally created to counter and mess with Shadow, like he did throughout the fight in his Rage Mode?

It's not like Shadow was successful in defeating Eclipse the first time they met.

Also, why is it hard to understand why Knuckles didn't want G.U.N. taking the Master Emerald?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

It doesn't help that we all know Knuckles was literally in the right, since we saw right away that Snively planned to use the Emerald to gain power for himself.

[MetalSkulkBane]

19 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

Are we really going to ignore the fact that Eclipse was literally created to counter and mess with Shadow, like he did throughout the fight in his Rage Mode?

Ohh, I completely forgot about that obvious details.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

1 He won, didn't he? Taking off inhibitors is last resort strategy, it's draining for Shadow. He would do it if he had to. (Plus, it would be boring from story perspective)

2 It's not clear how going Super works with Master Emeralad. Again, he DID used ME power to win, so what's the difference?

3 There are several answers. Maybe Knuckles can block connection to the ME, maybe Shadow thought "Bah, I can take him." or most probably he WASN'T thinking. He got punched he wanted to punch back. I really hate when people say stuff like "PLOT HOLE: Why character didn't do X?". Because they didn't' THOUGH to to use X. You think you're so smart sitting on a coach, drinking cocoa and coming up with solutions, hours after reading a story, while main characters had adrenaline rush, had to act instantly and was probably injured. Fact that character can't come up to same conclusion as you is NOT a plothole. (Also, eclipse messed with Shadow's brain, he wasn't thinkint straight.)

4 (Your previous post, why Knuckles "was a jerk": Because they already had a plan: to take ME from him. He said "no" and they ignored him. What was he suppose to do, sent reprimand letter to GUN? And yes, Knuckles knows about threat of Black Arms, but he wasn't as you said "rendered useless". He fought aliens just fine, he was defeated by a gas, one that is no longer a threat. There is no Comet, no Invasion forces, No Black Doom, just a single alien. Knuckles probably though he can take him. (Then again, Knuckles wasn't thinking clear either. He's was protecting ME, that's the only think that mattered to him in that moment. He's a hot head and he spent his whole life protecting this rock. Plus with Snively in GUN Knuckles might done the right thing after all.)

 

The only thing I can agree with you is that Eclipse would have no chance if they worked together, but that's the tragedy of whole thing.

He didn't win. Did you forget the entire reason they went on that space road trip? The fear is that atleast one of them aliens gets there hands on a power source they are going to spread like wild fire. Shadow for whatever reason didnt go for the kill opt for the kill which he could have even more than before without inhibitor rings. Because he is beside the master emerald. He, failed.

See point 1

Shadow is supposed to be an excellent tactician. If there is a battery and the battery makes me stronger, the first thing im doing is figuring out how to get back to battery. Were are talking about a guy who pulled a long con on eggman so he blow up the planet. This guy who in every character description he has is described to be someone who will do anything to achieve their goals. So why on green hill zone did this laps in logic come now. The guy who was so far ahead of everyone else in sonic 06 he knew when mephilis was going to bathroom. No, they forgot he could do that

See point one about the aliens getting to earth and why they went to space ,again. Also he didnt fight the aliens just fine. Did we forget the true ending to shadows game? The whole world was infected and fucked and they all rushed to the ship to stop it at the source. It was almost too late. So no he didnt fight them just fine. Not even shadow did.

Further more , shadow is someone who regularly calls themselves the ultimate life form. When that guy the guy who don't want help from no body comes to your doorstep like "ay fam we got problems " you listen. Because you talking about snively, ok cool. They could have just let knuckles take the thing an undisclosed location they didnt know about. Or waited for eclipse suprised him. Jumped him. Killed him and solved the problem. If knuckles would have been wiling to talk an offer ideas we wouldn't  have had the problem

47 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

Are we really going to ignore the fact that Eclipse was literally created to counter and mess with Shadow, like he did throughout the fight in his Rage Mode?

It's not like Shadow was successful in defeating Eclipse the first time they met.

Also, why is it hard to understand why Knuckles didn't want G.U.N. taking the Master Emerald?

He can't counter time stop. As you have seen. No one can. Its stopping time. So like i said why didnt he stop time and chaos blast his ass to kingdom come? He did it last arc no problem. With no emerald. Now he has the biggest one. Eclipse should be dust. 

Next, i mention above two alternitives to knuckles being an asshole.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 Well excuse me that Eclipse teleported before Shadow could finish the job. Besides, Sonictrainer had much better point that I did on that matter.

2 "Shadow is supposed to be an excellent tactician". What? Who said that? Shadow never proved to be genius. He tricked Eggman cause he followed Gerald's plan. And he did that in peace and quiet, not injured, mind washed and angry. And even then, that's different kind of smarts. I love Shadow, but you're over idolizing him a bit.

3 I think you're jumping to conclusions. True ending isn't  clear on what's going  on. Situation couldn't be that bad since everyone is alive. Maybe Black Arms were winning only because they teleported Comet and used gas. As far as we know Knuckles & the rest kicked buts with ease to that point, they just didn't kicked them fast enough. And again, Eclipse is ONE guy, not entire fleet.

4 "You listen" Are you talking about Knuckles? Do you think Knuckles is a guy who humbly bows to mighty Shadow and "listens"? Maybe he would if Shadow DID asked for his help, but our black hedgehog was all like "Bah, I can take Eclipse on my own. I don't know why we waste time with Knuckles" SU 67, page 5. And they didn't  gave him that choice, Shadow said "this is no time to debate" and ignored Knux. SU 68, 3 page reading backward.

Overall you're expecting Knuckles and Shadow to be soulless drones that base all their actions on logic and math, not characters with emotions and flaws.

[Forte-Metallix]

Knuckles didn't have a choice. He could either:

A) Let Eclipse, a bloodthirsty evil alien, take the M.E.

B ) Let a shady (heh) hedgehog, a trigger-happy robot, and a shameless jewel thief take the M.E.

C) Keep it out of everyone's hands in a way so that he himself would have the best chance of getting the M.E. back

It was the best bad option he had. Shadow, Omega, and especially Rouge aren't the most trustworthy people when it comes to magical gems. But, like Rouge said, they could've talked things out instead of fighting like children and letting Eclipse divide and conquer them.

[Arranos]

No matter the outcome, what's happened will always remain.

We should know by now that Sonic Vs. Knuckles, Sonic Vs. Shadow, and Knuckles Vs. Shadow should end in a tie just so each can have some sort of standing.

Total Eclipse, Champions, and anything that has those three pairings will always end in a tie. That's also the reason why Tails, Amy, and Espio lost to Honey, Knuckles, and Bean, respectively: they may be Sega official, but they're not viewed as "important".

Heck, if we're talking important, why not include Blaze? Oh yeah, because she was captured and put into a cage by Captain Metal -- which, I may add, is just an altered Metal Sonic altered to avoid mandate wrath.

No matter what happens, Sonic, Knuckles, and Shadow will be Sega's aces, Tails, Amy, and Eggman are support, and everyone else game-wise is extra (at least, that's how I've seen people think of these characters).

What I'm trying to say is that it's pointless to argue power standings between characters. We should be glad that we get these stories and they're just delayed in printing, or something. I was saddened by the "hiatus" (or cancellation) of Mega Man, but the Sonic comics are still here.

[Sonictrainer]

43 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow is supposed to be an excellent tactician.

He's not. Calling yourself the ultimate lifeform gives you the ultimate overconfidence. It's been his number one weakness both before and after the reboot.

Quote

He can't counter time stop. As you have seen. No one can. Its stopping time. So like i said why didnt he stop time and chaos blast his ass to kingdom come? He did it last arc no problem. With no emerald. Now he has the biggest one. Eclipse should be dust.

The fact that he tried to do that and Eclipse still survived shows that even with a boost from the Master Emerald, Eclipse is still strong enough to withstand Shadow's attacks in his Rage Mode.

Also, I don't think it's a good idea to do a Chaos Blast near the Master Emerald...

[Big Panda]

I never noticed before but was normal!Eclipse inside the body of his powered up form?!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

There's also the fact that Eclipse simply being nearby cancels out Shadow's Chaos powers.

Really, that was made clear right from the get go. Hence why Shadow needed to use the Master Emerald to overcome that problem.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

It was a pretty badass moment. How does he angle chaos blast to just shoot forward like that, though? It's always been just an explosion before.

[Celestia]

I swear I remember Shadow directing his Chaos Blast like that before, but I'm not sure when or where. Maybe in an older issue of these comics?

[Arranos]

1 hour ago, Detective Panda said:

I never noticed before but was normal!Eclipse inside the body of his powered up form?!

Apparently. I think it may be some sort of exoskeleton-like body. More info later?

 

44 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

There's also the fact that Eclipse simply being nearby cancels out Shadow's Chaos powers.

Really, that was made clear right from the get go. Hence why Shadow needed to use the Master Emerald to overcome that problem.

True; that is what Eclipse was made to do: cancel out Shadow's powers. It was stated in Shadow Fall.

26 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I swear I remember Shadow directing his Chaos Blast like that before, but I'm not sure when or where. Maybe in an older issue of these comics?

I believe that was when he was fighting Enerjak-Knuckles?

[Zaysho]

I can't think of another moment where Shadow concentrated/directed his Chaos Blast in that fashion. Or at least one where it was still called "Chaos Blast." Closest I can think of was the second issue of Sonic Universe where Shadow uses Chaos Control to stop Eggman's telescope-cannon, and that just stopped it from firing, it didn't destroy anything. They probably could have gotten away with him not calling an attack at all.

[Big Panda]

2 hours ago, Arranos said:

I believe that was when he was fighting Enerjak-Knuckles?

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/archiesonic/images/f/f3/Chaos_Blast.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20090706215756

[FriendBot]

A small thing to note that in Sonic Chronicles, Shadow's POW Moves is Chaos Blast and that's a beam-like attack as well.