Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[E-122-Psi]

While I admit it's probably fitting for the whole 'war' development of the comic's universe, it's something I was never really big on. Having every single character a Freedom Fighter took away the whole sense of individuality and giving each character their own goals and uniqueness to some degree. I'm glad for example that the Chaotix are now specifically a detective agency like in the games and work on their own. They can still sometimes play like Freedom Fighters given the dire situation, but they have their own gimmick and drives now.

[MetalSkulkBane]

9 hours ago, SilverStarN64 said:

As of right now in the Post-Reboot, there are a total of five FF teams (Knothole, Avalon, Shamar, the Wolf Pack, and Dulcy's team).

I wouldn't even be surprised if there just so happened to be more unknown Freedom Fighter teams that we have yet to discover...

Whether they stop after Dulcy's group or continue to create even more is a mystery to us all...

I'm suspecting that Mighty will get his own team too.

I would much prefer if each team had it's own name like "Chaotix" or "Wolf Pack", rather then FF groups. If I recall correctly Shamar team was going to be named "Desert Raiders".

Still, at least new teams are either focused on the leader or have small in numbers. I don't  really care about them neither of them (not even Dulcy, Bow or Lupe), but it is improvement over Preboot.

8 hours ago, Destructo-Dude said:

To be fair, not ALL FF members of the old continuity were bad or bland.

Really? Who did you liked except Knothole, Secret and Sandblast FF? The only guy I can think of is Fly Fly Freddy, because he was so weirdly out of place (and I guess few people like Rob and Guru).

[Dee Dude]

53 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

While I admit it's probably fitting for the whole 'war' development of the comic's universe, it's something I was never really big on. Having every single character a Freedom Fighter took away the whole sense of individuality and giving each character their own goals and uniqueness to some degree. I'm glad for example that the Chaotix are now specifically a detective agency like in the games and work on their own. They can still sometimes play like Freedom Fighters given the dire situation, but they have their own gimmick and drives now.

Exactly. Give a team their own identity and name but can work like Freedom Fighters if necessary.

49 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Really? Who did you liked except Knothole, Secret and Sandblast FF? The only guy I can think of is Fly Fly Freddy, because he was so weirdly out of place (and I guess few people like Rob and Guru).

Hm, never mind. You already the listed the only ones that were intresting. Everyone else was bland.

[Your Vest Friend]

Here be dragons. Well, not in this preview but still.

[Kaotic Kanine]

Darn! I was hoping to see some dragons! Oh well, this is still interesting. Glad to see Adabat get a visit! I thought that country was going to get skipped over.

Spoiler

HOLY SHIT FINALLY CREAM IS OUT IN THE ACTION!!! Though I would've vastly preferred it if she wasn't once fucking again airlifting someone, especially Sally Acorn (Seriously, Ian, STOP HAVING CREAM INTERACT WITH SALLY! I'M SICK OF THIS!!!)... But at least Cream is out of that god forsaken Sky Patrol so I'll consider this a step forward

 

[KoDaiko]

Spoiler

I know its a small thing, but I am disappointed that they decided to portray Cream as weak. She has trouble carrying Sally? REALLY? In the game she can carry Amy with no problem, she even carried Amy and BIG WHO IS THE HEAVIEST without any trouble. Man, I hate the "you need to be experienced or trained professionally or else you're weak" reasoning Ian made up so much. (Didn't he later say Cream is physically capable enough but doesn't show it due to her personality in Bumblekast?) I wont't mind if she can't carry Big, but one girl???? I can't help interpreting it as "see, she's too weak, you cant ask us to make her join the action now!"

Real world logic doesn't work on fictional animal-people, Ian...I don't care if you make a bunch of new characters that are fragile and weak and helpless, but don't make canonically strong enough characters weak...especially when she proved herself in the game...

 

[Kaotic Kanine]

10 minutes ago, KoDaiko said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I know its a small thing, but I am disappointed that they decided to portray Cream as weak. She has trouble carrying Sally? REALLY? In the game she can carry Amy with no problem, she even carried Amy and BIG WHO IS THE HEAVIEST without any trouble. Man, I hate the "you need to be experienced or trained professionally or else you're weak" reasoning Ian made up so much. (Didn't he later say Cream is physically capable enough but doesn't show it due to her personality in Bumblekast?) I wont't mind if she can't carry Big, but one girl???? I can't help interpreting it as "see, she's too weak, you cant ask us to make her join the action now!"

Real world logic doesn't work on fictional animal-people, Ian...I don't care if you make a bunch of new characters that are fragile and weak and helpless, but don't make canonically strong enough characters weak...especially when she proved herself in the game...

 

Spoiler

Then again, for all we know, Cream was probably flying Sally Ugh for quite a while and she does get exhausted from flying too long (heck, she gets fatigued from flying faster than Tails does). But I agree with you on everything else. Ian's logic regarding Cream is complete bullshit and I swear he's simply trying to excuse his horrid use of her thus far. If he actually cares about Cream he wouldn't have this stupid misconception about her and would treat her with actual respect, which hasn't been the case since her overdue debut into the comics.

 

[Heckboy]

The second story looks pretty good. Any story where Bunnie isn't with Antoine is a nice change.

Gotta say, I prefer these shorter, self-contained back-up stories (like the Lucia one from last issue) over the main ones. I wish the comic would do these more often. 

[Forte-Metallix]

3 minutes ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

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Then again, for all we know, Cream was probably flying Sally Ugh for quite a while and she does get exhausted from flying too long (heck, she gets fatigued from flying faster than Tails does). But I agree with you on everything else. Ian's logic regarding Cream is complete bullshit and I swear he's simply trying to excuse his horrid use of her thus far. If he actually cares about Cream he wouldn't have this stupid misconception about her and would treat her with actual respect, which hasn't been the case since her overdue debut into the comics.

 

I think you're overreacting a bit.

Just because Cream is portrayed as flawed doesn't mean she's not being treated with respect; it means she's relatable. And considering Sally's the leader, it makes sense for all the FF's to be close to her. Not to mention Cream has interacted with others before. (Notably, Nicole and Big in the story where she saved Sally, Antoine, and Bunnie from the three E-Series robots, a feat you seem to ignore every time you bring this argument up)

And, like it or not, Cream doesn't have as much priority as the other FF's regarding limelight time to sell books. Plus, she's going to be the major player in an upcoming issue. As for how she's treated in-universe, remember that she's a six-year-old with nowhere near as much experience as the others. (We don't know how games like Advance 2 happened in this universe) Sally keeping her away from the more dangerous missions isn't pandering to her; it's being practical. Big has arguably less experience, but considering he's built like a tank, he fares a better chance against monsters and killer robots.

[KoDaiko]

3 minutes ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Then again, for all we know, Cream was probably flying Sally Ugh for quite a while and she does get exhausted from flying too long (heck, she gets fatigued from flying faster than Tails does). But I agree with you on everything else. Ian's logic regarding Cream is complete bullshit and I swear he's simply trying to excuse his horrid use of her thus far. If he actually cares about Cream he wouldn't have this stupid misconception about her and would treat her with actual respect, which hasn't been the case since her overdue debut into the comics.

 

Spoiler

I looked again at the preview and she was carrying Sally AND Antoine...so yeah, ok, she was probably exhausted...:(

Still don't understand why they did that when she finally joined the action (not gonna say "for the first time", but it feels like it post-reboot) after issues and issues of wait...i heard that a character's first appearance makes up how people see that character even if they change, and that worries me? I'm really hoping they portray her more capable and strong to counter that.

I totally said this before, but if Ian's doesn't know what to do with her, just stick her with Amy like Tails and Sonic...I'm not saying occasional team up arcs, just make Amy do the guardian-role. Sally have enough close friends that balance her flaw and support her, and she already have a role of "leader" and "motherless daughter", she doesn't need to add "mom-guardian" to it...

 

[Toby]

Cream is carrying both Sally and Antoine, if it makes any difference. Her being able to carry Big is stupid all the same.

[PC the Hedgehog]

Sonic game logic doesn't always equate to Sonic comic logic.

[Dee Dude]

I'm sure we're all excited to see Dulcy soon but I'm more excited in seeing her team.

New Archie Sonic character designs ftw!

[Your Vest Friend]

Eh, Cream carrying Big in this world should be more than possible when Charmy carrying the Chaotix is established as possible (albeit not favoured by one of them), especially when Big is canonically lighter (I think, I can check after though).

The one thing that is being neglected is that the same game had a cap on how long it was possible for, regardless of the weight being carried.

Edit: Nope, 80kg heavier. But I still don't think the difference is enough to render it impossible when Charmy being capable of similar is.

Edit edit: Wait, haven't we already seen Cream carry Big at one point? Must just be the meter thing then.

[KoDaiko]

2 hours ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

Sonic game logic doesn't always equate to Sonic comic logic.

stuffed it in spoilers because long.

Spoiler

Sure comic and game is different, but shouldn’t he let game characters keep their character since it’s based more on the game than before, especially character-wise? The characters in game is already established to a certain degree, the comic shouldn’t change that. They managed to fit in Sonic and his friends without changing their character much, why not Cream?

 

Cream is kind and unwilling to fight, sure, but that doesn’t not mean she is not capable. She has the capability to fight enemies and help save her mom, and keep up with Amy and Big. She can fight on her own and by her own will if she needs to; it would fit in with the constant need to fight in the comic. She will go fight if there are people who need help, especially her friends, and she can give support when her friends need it. Since the comic focus on action, saying she cannot fight mean she is just there doing nothing or close to nothing. There are some drama and talking parts, but it’s always something that Cream won’t be able to join.

 

The “u need to be trained” rule seems to be made specifically for restricting Cream. Charmy is apparently “trained” by Espio and Vector, and Tails  was apparently “trained” by Sonic, both of which is not so convincing to me (does that mean Marine was trained by Blaze or something?). Archie could make a character that is a minor and not strong and say it’s because they just aren’t; they could’ve just said some mobian are strong, some are not. They don’t need some logic like “all minors are not strong because not experienced/trained enough” which would then need to apply to all minors including game ones, but miraculously only affect Cream because the others are already characterized to not fight or have an excuse.  And Ian said this when people asked him why Cream isn’t getting any spotlight despite her capability in the game. I dunno if there is any other comic-logic that negatively affected something the game character had, but this sounds like a lazy excuse. It was better reasoning when he said that Cream had the capability but she won’t be active due to her personality, but I’m not sure if that means the old “rule” isn’t valid anymore.

That makes me think, are there any Archie character that is 1)a minor, 2)has the personality willing to fight, 3)but fail because of said “need training” rule?

and about the weight thing, I already said I don't mind if they can't carry Big since he is 280kg which is like 8 times more than Sonic. But since the normal size characters are around 35-40kg in the game,  Antoine plus Sally is less than half of Big. Making me think, why did Sally and Antoine both grab on to her when they could've just used the extreme gear thing? It's obviously not a suited method to fight. Just so the reader will see her do something seemingly useful but tire out?

[Kaotic Kanine]

5 hours ago, Forte-Metallix said:

I think you're overreacting a bit.

Just because Cream is portrayed as flawed doesn't mean she's not being treated with respect; it means she's relatable. And considering Sally's the leader, it makes sense for all the FF's to be close to her. Not to mention Cream has interacted with others before. (Notably, Nicole and Big in the story where she saved Sally, Antoine, and Bunnie from the three E-Series robots, a feat you seem to ignore every time you bring this argument up)

And, like it or not, Cream doesn't have as much priority as the other FF's regarding limelight time to sell books. Plus, she's going to be the major player in an upcoming issue. As for how she's treated in-universe, remember that she's a six-year-old with nowhere near as much experience as the others. (We don't know how games like Advance 2 happened in this universe) Sally keeping her away from the more dangerous missions isn't pandering to her; it's being practical. Big has arguably less experience, but considering he's built like a tank, he fares a better chance against monsters and killer robots.

1) Except the flaw in question is one that shouldn't exist. Contrary to popular belief, Cream is not weak and she sure as hell isn't inexperienced. This little girl had been involved in numerous adventures previously and had proven herself to be a lot more powerful and capable than she appears in each one. Sure, she's no match for Sonic, Shadow, Knuckles, or even Amy, but a horde of Badniks or "monsters made of evil" shouldn't be a big deal to her. Yes, Cream is a pacifist and would rather not fight, but she learned rather early in her own story in Battle to put aside her feelings on combat and fight to protect others and protect herself. Ian, however, thinks the opposite. He has stated more than a few times that fighting "isn't who Cream is" and uses that to justify keeping Cream on the sidelines. "She's a cute, innocent little girl. She doesn't make the right call in combat or missions". My response: have you actually played the fucking games? Such as Cream's debut game, where she curb-stomps cheap bosses like no tomorrow. Heroes, where she goes on a three day (or even longer) adventure alongside other newcomer heroes to rescue her friend; facing off a huge abundance of robots (some that can be quite a pain), a world renown hero and his friends, a quirky but tough group of detectives, ghosts, and a GOD-LIKE GIANT METAL DRAGON. Battle, where Cream once again fights against group after group of powerful robots and spars with her friend, an ancient super weapon. Cream has been demonstrated to be more than a "cute, innocent little girl" more than a few times. Hell, that's a major reason why she's one of my favorite characters; because she's a badass in spite of her age and demeanor. But Ian willfully ignores this aspect of Cream and chooses to write her as a weakling. "She wants to help, but she doesn't belong out in the field. She should stay within the air ship serving cookies and coffee and overall being useless in a team of heroes" despite the games and even X showing the exact opposite. That is why I think Ian is "disrespecting" Cream, because he's ignoring a rather major part of her character and upholds a, quite frankly, misguided view of Cream just so he doesn't have to use her often. I don't mind Cream being flawed, but it should be flaws that Cream either already has or doesn't contradict a major part of her character.

2) The problem however is that Cream's relationship with Sally is pretty much the only one being actively shown, especially recently, while Cream's interactions with everyone else is either minor or not even explored yet, with the exception of Amy (whom she hasn't significantly interacted with since "Pirate Plunder Panic", which was released two years ago and now becoming three). I'm just saying, I feel we've had more than enough of "Sally is a cool mother to Cream" and "Cream is Sally's support" (even though Sally already has Nicole). I very much love to see way more of Cream and Amy, especially since they are supposed to be "hero and sidekick" to each other and the comic handles their dynamic far better than the games and X. I want to see Cream interact a ton with Tails, especially given how much in common they have with each other. I want to see Cream and Sonic to interact a lot with each other, especially since Sonic is essentially a big brother to Cream in the games and X (making the fact that Sonic didn't even acknowledge Cream's existence until SB #10 all the more jarring). I would like to see more of Cream's relationship with Big, which hasn't been seen since Heroes. I would really love to see Cream interact with Bunnie and see their relationship and ditto for Antoine. Instead, I'm seeing Cream interact way more often with Sally and seeing their relationship more often, which is all the more irritating because Sally is already an overly prominent character (well, in my eyes. Probably not the actual case), has enough going for her character (as KoDaiko pointed out), and I honestly see Sally's treatment of Cream as unhealthy because she simply has no faith in Cream. Hell, this is the same exact thing as how Sally treated Tails and Amy Pre-Reboot; denying them from taking part in missions and such due to their own young age and inexperience. But at least in those cases Tails and Amy legitimately had no experience, though that eventually changed once Tails and Amy actually got to take part and gain experience. Cream, however, does have experience from previous adventures and, even if it's not much, how is Cream expected to gain experience if she's forever confined to a stupid air ship and only allowed to serve snacks? You may see Sally's treatment of Cream as practicality, but I see it as unhealthy and complete idiocy since Cream does have experience and is a capable ally who can be useful on multiple occasions outside of serving snacks.

3) I am fully aware of that feat and that is true, it is an admirable and notable moment that finally had Cream take action. But, being the unpleasable asshole that I am, I can't fully accept that as a genuine moment for Cream because it didn't actually do anything for her. She successfully leads the rescue for the other Freedom Fighters but what comes of it? No one thanks or even acknowledges Cream for what she did and her efforts in doing so nor is there any character development shown for either Cream or Sally, the latter who really should've gotten development by recognizing that "Hey, that little girl I constantly kept out of missions thinking she's useless, just like I did with Tails and Amy in the past, is actually a capable team member and I'm a fucking idiot for treating her this badly". But no, none of that happened. Cream's efforts weren't acknowledged and she's still forced to stay on Sky Patrol for her own safety despite that event, and many others in the past (Advance 2, Heroes, Battle, Advance 3, Rush, Pirate Plunder Panic, and the fight against Metal Sonic in Mobotropolis), showing that isn't necessary in the slightest. Believe me, I want to acknowledge that moment, but that's kinda hard to do when Cream was still treated as "useless and weak" straight afterwards.

I'm sorry if I'm being rude (please know, Metallix, that I'm not "blowing up" at you or anything. I'm solely raising my voice at Ian and the comics) and maybe I am overreacting a bit too much. But this whole subject just really gets to me and has been essentially consuming my mind as of late. I expected the Archie Comics to do better with Cream. I expected the comics to do Cream justice after the games and X failed to do so. I was disappointed with how minimal Cream's appearances and actions were Pre-Reboot and I hoped that would change Post-Reboot. I thought it really did once Cream became a Freedom Fighter, only for her to be constantly denied actual contributions and being left out of huge, important events (such as World's Collide, Waves of Change, 98% of Unleashed, and World's Unite), resulting in missed opportunities that does nothing to help Cream become a popular character. I'm pissed beyond belief and if anyone else's favorite character's were being treated the same way, I wouldn't blame them for feeling the exact same way I do right now.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Kaotic Kanine

[Mauro Fonseca]

I get that discussing how the comic mangles or not the characters and the stories is important but I want to call attention to something more important

fuck this colouring job

 

[shdowhunt60]

Call me a plebe, but I don't see the problem.

[Arranos]

Spoiler

So, Bunnie is an orphan. She was found by Rosie and didn't have a single memory.

I'm sorry, but I really care about the parents; it's what builds the personality of a character. Without them, they all just seem traumatized kids that we're supposed to feel for. Well, at least the five Freedom Fighters that could have parents. I still feel like Cream being the only SEGA character allowed to have a parent is just off.

Personal Headcanon; please skip if you don't care.

Spoiler

I always have this headcanon that Gazebo is Cream's dad, Tiara is her older sister, and that they explore the world while Cream and Vanilla wait for them, but Cream secretly wants to go on adventures too.

Then again, Pokémon mainly just has a mom (with the only dad being Gym Leader Norman), so what do I know?

Anyway, can't wait to see Dulcy, her team, and the Dark Gaia Phoenix. It's starting to wind down, so I propose a question:

What's next? Are we going to get a break from adventures for a while, are we jumping into the Lost World adaption afterwards, or something else? More world-building, more secrets, more shenanigans?

I remember Ian saying that other than Unleashed, Chronicles and Lost World have not been adapted, but I also remember him saying that this was before some changes. I don't remember if that was exactly what he said.

[Mauro Fonseca]

1 hour ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Call me a plebe, but I don't see the problem.

Sure. Pleb.

Even ignoring it's just got the colours wrong for Chun-Nan (the water is green, come on, it's half the screen in the level at any given time), it's just an ugly cheap way of "colouring" to shove textures randomly with no more work put on them. Especially when it results in misreading the linework and painting "rocks" with a water texture.

[shdowhunt60]

Again, I see you and Shaddy complaining about the art all the time and all I can think of is... It looks fine. I mean, this isn't exactly Many Hands level of art we're talking about here.

[Mauro Fonseca]

If to you all it takes is "it's not complete shit" to be contented, fine. I prefer things actually look good instead of just "passable" (or honestly in the case of this page, "bad")

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yo, regarding the whole "Cream carrying Sally and Antoine," remember that flying characters get tired after flying a while regardless of who they're carrying. Even Tails.

So if you want to talk over game logic and comic logic, note that game logic dictates they can only fly for a few seconds.

[shdowhunt60]

14 minutes ago, The KKM said:

If to you all it takes is "it's not complete shit" to be contented, fine. I prefer things actually look good instead of just "passable" (or honestly in the case of this page, "bad")

And I'm not seeing what's so bad. It's fine. This comic's been privy to far worse art, and we've left those days behind us.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Yyes, you already indicated you're fine with "this isn't as bad as shit".

Why do you keep replying repeating what you said? I already know, you're fine with "this is just fine". I already said, "I'm not".