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On 2/7/2017 at 8:57 AM, The KKM said:

You're dooming this potential new comic before it even exists. Isn't one of the things that's celebrated about Archie Sonic how it proved various concepts can work despite naysayers (see, for an example, the love our own CSS has for Big in the comics)? Isn't that evidence enough that a comic primarily focused on the games' lore can work, and rejecting the idea already as "bland and wrong" is just kneejerking?

 

EDIT: I don't even like Mega Drive that much, but isnt the reception it's having evidence of what I'm saying here in the first place, even? Sonic, Tails, Amy, Knuckles, Eggman, Metal Sonic. Works fine.

Even then, we've had evidence of them being perfectly capable of carrying a story on their own. Champions anyone? The SatAM characters barely appeared in that arc, and it's probably the best arc in the comic's entire history.

Don't take this as an advocacy for removing the Freedom Fighters, I happen to like a couple of them myself, but we really don't need them.

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^You can't really take Champions as a proof of concept for that.

The knock against at Game Centric model has always been in issue of longevity. In an age of serialized storytelling you have to look at longevity. The ability to craft storylines that still make an impact 50 to 100 issues down the road. If your going to whittle the cast down to 5 or 6, and furthermore limit the writers to the significantly slimmer scope (as opposed to completely original sets) of what Sega puts out... then yeah that is a legitimate concern.

Not that it can't be done, but that's where the problems lies. There is only so many times you can face off against Metal Sonic before he's no longer a threat. Funny enough, the Archie comics went through that phase a while back.

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There's a certain TV show that mostly focuses on serialised storytelling about a main character and a couple recurring secondary ones facing off multiple villains and having adventures and meeting new characters, new settings, repeatedly, and it's recently celebrated 50 years. It's also ironically been the msot critically backlashed at recently when it started trying to chain itself more to characters instead of continuing the usual format.

Don't tell me the format can't have longevity or that it's somehow that difficult to pull off.

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I'm trying to think of which show you're talking about, but I can't think of anything specific at the moment. Mind clarifying?

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5 hours ago, The KKM said:

There's a certain TV show that mostly focuses on serialised storytelling about a main character and a couple recurring secondary ones facing off multiple villains and having adventures and meeting new characters, new settings, repeatedly, and it's recently celebrated 50 years. It's also ironically been the msot critically backlashed at recently when it started trying to chain itself more to characters instead of continuing the usual format.

Don't tell me the format can't have longevity or that it's somehow that difficult to pull off.

Its hard to provide feedback when you don't tell me which show your talking about.

All I can say to that is, are the writers in the show restricted and confined to working with someone else's IP? is the source material unreliable and constantly shifting the status quo? Also consider that a TV show has quite a bit more real estate to deal with as opposed to a comic. There is more time in a once a week time slot to get a detailed story across as opposed to the pages of a mo. Comic.

All that said, I'm sure its a completely different situation.

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Champions isn't a knock against the FF , champions is a knock against the entire arc they spent several years on. Why do people go " well champions was good" because everything else was bad and dragged on for literal years. 

14 hours ago, The KKM said:

There's a certain TV show that mostly focuses on serialised storytelling about a main character and a couple recurring secondary ones facing off multiple villains and having adventures and meeting new characters, new settings, repeatedly, and it's recently celebrated 50 years. It's also ironically been the msot critically backlashed at recently when it started trying to chain itself more to characters instead of continuing the usual format.

Don't tell me the format can't have longevity or that it's somehow that difficult to pull off.

Eh thats not a good example because

  • Its a different medium
  • you haven't specified what the deal with the licencing is
  • Its a different brand with different expectations
  • we don't know what the demographic for said brand is
  • We don't know the quality of the changes it tried to make would could also justify a backlash
  • We don't know the cultural context said show hass 
14 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

^You can't really take Champions as a proof of concept for that.

The knock against at Game Centric model has always been in issue of longevity. In an age of serialized storytelling you have to look at longevity. The ability to craft storylines that still make an impact 50 to 100 issues down the road. If your going to whittle the cast down to 5 or 6, and furthermore limit the writers to the significantly slimmer scope (as opposed to completely original sets) of what Sega puts out... then yeah that is a legitimate concern.

Not that it can't be done, but that's where the problems lies. There is only so many times you can face off against Metal Sonic before he's no longer a threat. Funny enough, the Archie comics went through that phase a while back.

Longevity is the main reason I consider the reboot to be a complete failure to be failure.

Folks looking to far in the future, and not valuing what they could be doing with the story lines on a smaller shorter scale. 

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12 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Even then, we've had evidence of them being perfectly capable of carrying a story on their own. Champions anyone? The SatAM characters barely appeared in that arc, and it's probably the best arc in the comic's entire history.

Don't take this as an advocacy for removing the Freedom Fighters, I happen to like a couple of them myself, but we really don't need them.

I have to say that folks really need to beware this trap of who we vaguely "need" or "don't need" because while it's great for organizing a story so that it isn't bloated (hello World's Unite) it's not the logic one should use for overall storytelling. The moment you say "we really don't need X character" is the moment you open the floodgates for practically every character overall - one could say we don't need Shadow or Knuckles just as much as another can say we don't need Bunnie or Conquering Storm (and I will fucking stab you in the throat if you dare say the latter ;)). Champions barely had the SatAM characters in it, but it also barely had Team Dark or Eggman in it, and Metal Sonic played very little role as well, but that doesn't mean we don't need them now does it?

Telling a story of any kind is matter of asking "who can we use?" to tell it, which requires context, character utility, character motive(s), and what you put in and get out of it. Any character that fulfills all of these is a character that is there for a good reason that removing them ruins what the story is and how it's told, which is what you want as opposed to being there because it's expected when there's little use in their presence (and is a very stupid reason to have a character around). And you'll notice that's the central problem with a lot of storytelling on the games' end post-SA2 when they've either just thrown any character in regardless of context like in Heroes or Sonic 06 (ShTH, for all it's problems, remains an exception because it at the very least had a decent context for everyone involved) or they do the opposite and shun characters in games where it would actually make more sense for them to be involved (notably Unleashed despite all its good, maybe Colors, and especially Generations).

This is why I don't agree with people on Team Dark not being needed in the Shattered arc of Sonic Universe, because they were written there for a reason (even if they were there for something else) and removing them would require one to redo the whole story so that it's just as structured and coherent with their absence without ruining things like the pacing.

I say this because people say this very thing outside of the comics on members of the game cast that they're not fans of (like Shadow for instance) and make exceptions to characters they favor being around even when it makes no sense for them to be present - it's a really fallacious point to make and often comes off as a thinly-veiled, backhanded way of saying "get rid of X character I dislike."

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Champions is a terrible example of saying the book doesn't need original characters, given much of what makes that arc great depends both on Breezie and characters Sega has forgotten so much they might as WELL be original characters.

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The KKM was almost certainly referring to Doctor Who, but I find that a little strange.  Doctor Who invents new characters on an almost weekly basis, new enemies and allies, and has always made a policy of revisiting the most popular ones.  (Even the main cast is refreshed every couple of years.)  Doctor Who actually strikes me as a pretty decent analogy for Archie Sonic right now.  If it was suddenly required to use only a set list of characters and to never change or add to them except when a separate canon authority arbitrarily decided to, it would be a completely different show and I'm not sure how it could continue to tell fresh and original stories without the ability to expand the cast or develop the characters.

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Not the biggest fan of Doctor Who myself, so I can't really say much on that.

But as far as a format goes, I think it would be better if the context mattered more for the characters instead of a bias of who should be seen more because of popularity or seniority that intentionally and arbitrarily shuns other characters. That way characters can appear as often as they want as long as there's a strong and understandable reason for them appearing - while Sonic is usually off on his own, characters like the FF, Team Dark, and the Chaotix would have a lot of room to appear while those like Knuckles, Silver, or Blaze would need something that really requires their attention due to their circumstances isolating them from most matters unless something forces them into the situation. Doesn't mean the more mobile characters will appear all the time tho, provided something like distance or the lack of knowledge of where the other is keeps them apart.

It's the kind of thing I want the games to do as well since they've been going based on popularity or seniority and having their stories suffer.

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3 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

This is why I don't agree with people on Team Dark not being needed in the Shattered arc of Sonic Universe, because they were written there for a reason (even if they were there for something else) and removing them would require one to redo the whole story so that it's just as structured and coherent with their absence without ruining things like the pacing.

Story would work just fine with little changes, but be way shorter, my guess is 2 issues.

But overall limiting Archie to games characters only would be doable, but definitely damaging to the comic. I mean, Reboot is already Sega-ier and I see few problems. If Flynn could make better comic without including new character, he wouldn't be including new characters.

FF are a different story though. I wish they and Sonic split for a while to see how it works (which might be what they're going for? I don't know, I didn't read solicits and don't want to know future events).

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So, i read the whole thing but just to clarify, does fulop have a case or not? it seems his arguments/claims are falling apart

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57 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Thanks for the link. This is actually quite informative; I had no idea that Fulop's lawsuit was so convoluted.

I still can't believe this is even happening in the first place, Archie should have had the legal rights to their comics locked down tight. Seeing Archie lose control like this is just embarrassing and it makes Sega look bad in association. Still, it sounds like Archie has better legal representation this time, Fulop might actually lose his case. Which is for the best, the Sonic comic as suffered enough indignities at the hands of frivolous lawsuits.

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7 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Thanks for the link. This is actually quite informative; I had no idea that Fulop's lawsuit was so convoluted.

 

I still can't believe this is even happening in the first place, Archie should have had the legal rights to their comics locked down tight. Seeing Archie lose control like this is just embarrassing and it makes Sega look bad in association. Still, it sounds like Archie has better legal representation this time, Fulop might actually lose his case. Which is for the best, the Sonic comic as suffered enough indignities at the hands of frivolous lawsuits.

That's what people said about Ken

Do not under estimate the level of archie's dumpter fire status. 

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2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Story would work just fine with little changes, but be way shorter, my guess is 2 issues.

Which would be changing the pacing, almost risking it feeling fast to the point it seems rushed. It would be different and require rather big changes, as taking out Team Dark would also make the story less intense given how dangerous Naugus was to all parties involved, and I can see several ways one could write themselves in a corner without some major reworking (particularly Naugus crystallizing everyone until Knuckles breaks himself out as Team Dark were essential in helping to distract Naugus later down the line).

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would have a large trade-off that would give something different that what we got. I'd go so far as to say doing that would risk another writing fumble akin to House of Cards where the climax and resolution of the arc would be underwhelming and lacking at best.

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Also just as like an added bonus, while I have no confirmation. I think some of the reason why they are there ( related to me " too much longevity thinking is sometimes a bad) statement, is that. You haven't... seen anything related to shadow's story in.. actual years. And the last time you saw shadow... before he got to participate... in anthing he died. Shadow is a popular character, and... he has quite a few fans, and maybe that was a gesture of kindness.  Or at least I believe it to be. 

That doesn't fix the problems, of him starting a story line with a character he knew full well we weren't going to see do anything for actual years, making it urgent forced story lines and delays making that conclusion even longer . Along with the issue of him even attempting to do that with a character who's stories reside in 4 issue stints in the first place.  Those are all bad, and issues with reboot. And I know that a lot of the fans of shadow i've interacted with who like the comics... are a little miffed to say the least ( this is the type of thing that makes people hate archie folk btw. )

But I think the inclusion of the arc was an acknowledgement of such. He's like " hey man i'm trying " it doesn't fix it, but he's trying. 

 

Or he has no goddamned idea where that story was going, and everything that happened from the point that story beat stopped made the situation much much worse. And this is a stalling period for him to think of an actual story line, while fake progressing the store ( saying it exists but not doing anything with ) by placing them next to characters they could get easy interaction and money with because people are going to buy a comic with shadow and knuckles on the cover.  Or that. 

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1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Which would be changing the pacing, almost risking it feeling fast to the point it seems rushed. It would be different and require rather big changes, as taking out Team Dark would also make the story less intense given how dangerous Naugus was to all parties involved, and I can see several ways one could write themselves in a corner without some major reworking (particularly Naugus crystallizing everyone until Knuckles breaks himself out as Team Dark were essential in helping to distract Naugus later down the line).

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would have a large trade-off that would give something different that what we got. I'd go so far as to say doing that would risk another writing fumble akin to House of Cards where the climax and resolution of the arc would be underwhelming and lacking at best.

I think it would be just "fast paced". Just imagine that first Knuckles Vs Naugus fight isn't stopped in the middle and Amy is there too. Since we remove team Dark we have few extra pages for good fight and locking  Naugus in prison, Next 2 issues can be about Knuckles and Amy moving Emerald back to Angel Island and all the friendship talk can be used there (okay, that's cop-out on my part. let's say 3 issues is a good length). Really, the biggest problem is that 'Nixus' is even more pointless.

Admittedly Naugus is kinda strong to for only two of them, but that would make situation interesting. 1 Vs 5 seems little unfair.

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20 hours ago, The KKM said:

There's a certain TV show that mostly focuses on serialised storytelling about a main character and a couple recurring secondary ones facing off multiple villains and having adventures and meeting new characters, new settings, repeatedly, and it's recently celebrated 50 years. It's also ironically been the msot critically backlashed at recently when it started trying to chain itself more to characters instead of continuing the usual format.

Don't tell me the format can't have longevity or that it's somehow that difficult to pull off.

And some people still like that show the way it is. Why is it only the certain way you want it to be that matters?

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10 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

I have to say that folks really need to beware this trap of who we vaguely "need" or "don't need" because while it's great for organizing a story so that it isn't bloated (hello World's Unite) it's not the logic one should use for overall storytelling. The moment you say "we really don't need X character" is the moment you open the floodgates for practically every character overall - one could say we don't need Shadow or Knuckles just as much as another can say we don't need Bunnie or Conquering Storm (and I will fucking stab you in the throat if you dare say the latter ;)). Champions barely had the SatAM characters in it, but it also barely had Team Dark or Eggman in it, and Metal Sonic played very little role as well, but that doesn't mean we don't need them now does it?

Telling a story of any kind is matter of asking "who can we use?" to tell it, which requires context, character utility, character motive(s), and what you put in and get out of it. Any character that fulfills all of these is a character that is there for a good reason that removing them ruins what the story is and how it's told, which is what you want as opposed to being there because it's expected when there's little use in their presence (and is a very stupid reason to have a character around). And you'll notice that's the central problem with a lot of storytelling on the games' end post-SA2 when they've either just thrown any character in regardless of context like in Heroes or Sonic 06 (ShTH, for all it's problems, remains an exception because it at the very least had a decent context for everyone involved) or they do the opposite and shun characters in games where it would actually make more sense for them to be involved (notably Unleashed despite all its good, maybe Colors, and especially Generations).

This is why I don't agree with people on Team Dark not being needed in the Shattered arc of Sonic Universe, because they were written there for a reason (even if they were there for something else) and removing them would require one to redo the whole story so that it's just as structured and coherent with their absence without ruining things like the pacing.

I say this because people say this very thing outside of the comics on members of the game cast that they're not fans of (like Shadow for instance) and make exceptions to characters they favor being around even when it makes no sense for them to be present - it's a really fallacious point to make and often comes off as a thinly-veiled, backhanded way of saying "get rid of X character I dislike."

I'm not disagreeing here, but that wasn't my point. I was arguing the point that the SEGA characters couldn't hold a story on their own, and that they somehow need the Freedom Fighters, and that just isn't true. I'd argue that ever since Sally got robotocized, and Ian double down focus on those characters that they've been frequently the most interesting characters.

And I'm just speaking within the scope of the comic here. There have been numerous fanfiction writers I've known over the years that write around Sonic, Tails, and only sometimes Knuckles that write numerous veritable novels just around those three. JudasFm comes immediately to mind, she managed to write a whole slew of stories for 9 years just focusing on those three, and she's still one of the most regarded writers in the entire community. And she only quit to pursue her own professional writing career.

That's what I'm arguing. I'm not advocating removing anyone, and I frankly hate the fixation that Sonic fans have over what's necessary or not myself. Sometimes it's okay to have inconsequential details, I get that. My beef is whenever people say that the SEGA characters can't hold their own, which is a response coming from reactionary Archie and SatAM fans.

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Just now, shdowhunt60 said:

I'm not disagreeing here, but that wasn't my point. I was arguing the point that the SEGA characters couldn't hold a story on their own, and that they somehow need the Freedom Fighters, and that just isn't true. 

It isn't

Ian literally says so in the last podcast. Its why other characters are on the FF covers, its the opposite.  Archie folks can't sell stuff by themselves. 

Just now, shdowhunt60 said:

And I'm just speaking within the scope of the comic here. There have been numerous fanfiction writers I know over the year that write around Sonic, Tails, and only sometimes Knuckles that write numerous veritable novels just around those three. JudasFm comes immediately to mind, she managed to write a whole slew of stories for 9 years just focusing on those three, and she's still one of the most regarded writers in the entire community. And she only quit to pursue her own professional writing career.

I've never heard of her, interesting. 

Just now, shdowhunt60 said:

That's what I'm arguing. I'm not advocating removing anyone, and I frankly hate the fixation that Sonic fans have over what's necessary or not myself. Sometimes it's okay to have inconsequential details, I get that. My beef is whenever people say that the SEGA characters can't hold their own, which is a response coming from reactionary Archie and SatAM fans.

I agree with you a lot. I feel like the best arcs or stories are kinda mainly invovling Sega dudes right now. 

I think when think folks want game stories, people think they mean they want story only telling game tells forever. No what people want are stories based in more of a game settings with more familiar characters. You can still spin off of that, shadow's story is an example of this , they added onto his game and gave him a new thing to do.( granted they haven't been able to address said thing but that's another issue). 

And sega characters can hold there own, the comic would exist with out any of the archie or satam elements, its a comic based on of the most popular IP in the history of video games. So I have always seen the idea that It cant hold its own to be... to be quite frank, a delusion. A ken penders esque delusion tbh.

All you need is a decent writer and the ability to spin off a game, and there you go. 

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3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I think it would be just "fast paced". Just imagine that first Knuckles Vs Naugus fight isn't stopped in the middle and Amy is there too. Since we remove team Dark we have few extra pages for good fight and locking  Naugus in prison, Next 2 issues can be about Knuckles and Amy moving Emerald back to Angel Island and all the friendship talk can be used there (okay, that's cop-out on my part. let's say 3 issues is a good length). Really, the biggest problem is that 'Nixus' is even more pointless.

Admittedly Naugus is kinda strong to for only two of them, but that would make situation interesting. 1 Vs 5 seems little unfair.

So you remove Team Dark and just pad out the whole thing with Amy and Knuckles interacting -- was that not precisely the thing you're trying to avoid with Team Dark?

You're just doing the same thing with fewer characters and rushing the pacing in the same way the Main Comic suffered post-Worlds Unite, which is arguably worse given that there's only so much space you can do with 4 issues (shrinking it to 3 would risk messing up the pacing of the entire Universe series when every arc has always been 4 issues long from the start, so not the best idea to make that an exception) dealing with only 2 heroes and 1 villain without it dragging on.

It's one thing to say Nixus was pointless, but that arc was heavily plotted out that simply removing Team Dark would require you to rewrite the whole thing from beginning to end. It's not something you can just remove parts and shorten the length without it feeling off given that Ian's style of writing is very much that of a plotter who tries to make these things heavily connected or given strong context, else he wouldn't have bothered with them at all if he had a better draft for such a thing.

57 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I'm not disagreeing here, but that wasn't my point. I was arguing the point that the SEGA characters couldn't hold a story on their own, and that they somehow need the Freedom Fighters, and that just isn't true. I'd argue that ever since Sally got robotocized, and Ian double down focus on those characters that they've been frequently the most interesting characters.

I understand that, my concern was how that statment "we don't need X" works both ways and one should avoid saying that given what that usually means when someone reads between the lines most of the time - it's even worse when you really don't mean the negative context what someone reads out of it given how often they hear it. So it's best to think less "we don't need them" and more "who can we use" which is much more flexible and fair-minded and people will know you're not arbitrarily calling any character useless.

I wouldn't say he's doubled down as much than he has tried to flesh out this new world. The FF still have a lot of focus (hell, Nicole got her own Universe arc), some even more connected than they did before the reboot like Rotor while others like Sally have been toned down-- remember that Ian's gotten flak for giving her a lot of preferential treatment over other characters. I'd say he just has a lot more room to work with the game cast now that a lot of characters from the old continuity are no longer available to use.

And while the response that the FF are need is definitely reactionary, I find it hard to blame their feelings given they could very well have lost what they love in the only place they can still have it live on. It's almost akin to that "Shadow should've stayed dead" cliché that's long gotten old.

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5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Or he has no goddamned idea where that story was going, and everything that happened from the point that story beat stopped made the situation much much worse. And this is a stalling period for him to think of an actual story line, while fake progressing the store ( saying it exists but not doing anything with ) by placing them next to characters they could get easy interaction and money with because people are going to buy a comic with shadow and knuckles on the cover.  Or that.

For the record, I highly doubt that. If anything, Ian probably has plans pans for his plans hidden behind his plans. He has two Archie books to write for, and he's still been looking for more work and starting up "secret projects" on top of them. I don't see Ian as not knowing where he's going with something unless it's a ways down the line.

2 hours ago, Shaddy the guy said:

tumblr_ol8q9sORaw1s255kvo1_1280.png

On the lighter side of things, here's a meme that I stole.

That is quite the nice meme you have there good sir where might I find one of similar quality myself I would very much like a meme such as this for myself (sorry, this seemed like an appropriate response.)

Also, I guess I'm not familiar enough with all of the creators to fully get the joke.

12 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

The moment you say "we really don't need X character" is the moment you open the floodgates for practically every character overall - one could say we don't need Shadow or Knuckles just as much as another can say we don't need Bunnie or Conquering Storm (and I will fucking stab you in the throat if you dare say the latter ;)).

We really don't need Conquer--GACK! Just kidding! Just kidding!!

Also, I'm tired of all this legal stuff, and I think it's stupid. Sure, Archie is either missing or never had papers legally assigning them ownership of some of their creators' creations, but it should be understood. At very least if you're a creator who had worked with Archie in the past, why would you assert your "rights" over them knowing full well the damage it would do to the comic, your image, and your creations (the characters you made that Archie will have to shelve, etc.)? You'd also be showing yourself as possibly entitled, uncooperative, and a potential liability for future employers (whom you may give the same treatment) to say nothing of your future chances with Archie itself (though I assume this is a given). I really don't understand that kind of bridge-burning.

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