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Church rebuffs military concerns on Quran burning

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Actually, I think the very problem, is that the media (and the world news) gae this guy so much attention, so as to make matters worse with whats going on on the 'war on terror'. The pastor is stupid, but only hosts a congregation of about 30 (if that), hardly much (in fact this stunt is probably to attract attention, so he can gain more members). Effectively nothing. I mean in any part of the world, there will be pockets of people doing the exact same thing (well of that nature) so its to be expected , sad, but to be expected.

The media should not have focused on the story as they did and a result consequences have resulted because of it. All in he name of making a quick buck. Then again, everyone did eat it up didn't they?

Edited by blackherox

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Jones is nuts. I can say that with unique perspective as he is originally from my home town. Friends of the family actually know this guy and they've said as much whenever he was brought up.

This is wrong, but he isn't just an attention-seeker. He actually believes he's doing the right thing. It's sad and it's very unfortunate. Considering the risks in allowing this to go through now that the media has made him a household name, regardless of claims of free speech, the government should bullshit a way to shut this down. Any outrage it might cause here is nothing compared to the risk this puts America's army and even its people in.

Sometimes I wonder what goes through these people's heads... :(

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Actually, I think the very problem, is that the media (and the world news) gae this guy so much attention, so as to make matters worse with whats going on on the 'war on terror'.

I think it's a good thing to get this shit on radar so as to minimize the possibility of it spreading like cancer. It would help in putting some serious pressure on people like this so as to make them regret it in the future. Even if he goes through with it, he'll be further demonized for being so intolerant and arrogant in terms of religion.

Sure it could still spread, but I'd rather be in the know of things than to be ignorant. This isn't exactly something so irrelevant like dropping a cat in a trash bin.

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In fairness, it's not Jones' job to be concerned about the wellbeing of American troops. Petraus and Obama and soforth are saying "Oh, let's blame this guy when troops get shot because he anoyed Muslims".

Two problems with this:

1) If Obama and Petraus actually funded troops properly and were smart enough to come up with good defence plans, said troops wouldn't be vulnerable to Kashmiri peasants with 40-year-old rusting Soviet munitions.

2) It's not Jones who's going to be out there in Iraq shooting American troops. If Muslims weren't hissy-fit troglodytes who are so violent and insecure about their own ideology, they wouldn't REACT by shooting troops.

Essentially, if American troops lose their lives because of this book-burning, then that proves Jones was RIGHT, not wrong: Muslims are furious, violent people and their faith needs to be stamped into the dry dirt where it spawned from.

Also, anyone who opposes this action opposes free speech. Just sayin'. You can't get all wishy-washy and hand-wringing just when someone actually uses the right to free speech in a way that pricks your cosy little PC bubble.

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America got pissed when Liverpudlians burnt their flag.

So I think it'd allowed for Muslims to get pissed when people burn their holy text. This is the most important thing, basically, ever to them. To them, those are the words of God being burnt. It's hideously insulting to them.

Just because you have the 'right' to do something, does not make it 'right'.

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Also, anyone who opposes this action opposes free speech. Just sayin'. You can't get all wishy-washy and hand-wringing just when someone actually uses the right to free speech in a way that pricks your cosy little PC bubble.

Free speech is a dual-edged sword my friend. Just as they are free to burn the Quran we are free to express our disagreements/opinions about said event. It only becomes opposing when you actively try to stop the event/silence the voice through means such as censorship or violence.

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2) It's not Jones who's going to be out there in Iraq shooting American troops. If Muslims weren't hissy-fit troglodytes who are so violent and insecure about their own ideology, they wouldn't REACT by shooting troops.

Quite a leap of logic considering Muslim ≠ Islamic Extremist

Essentially, if American troops lose their lives because of this book-burning, then that proves Jones was RIGHT, not wrong: Muslims are furious, violent people and their faith needs to be stamped into the dry dirt where it spawned from.

Then you can call me when all billion of the world's Muslims suddenly end up in Afghanistan shooting at American troops.

Also, anyone who opposes this action opposes free speech. Just sayin'. You can't get all wishy-washy and hand-wringing just when someone actually uses the right to free speech in a way that pricks your cosy little PC bubble.

There is a difference between not liking something that essentially amounts to intentionally-bigoted hate speech and not liking something because it isn't politically incorrect. There is also a difference between opposing an action done by a group which is done out of free speech and opposing the group's ability to do the action.

Edited by Tornado

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If Muslims weren't hissy-fit troglodytes who are so violent and insecure about their own ideology, they wouldn't REACT by shooting troops.

Ya kinda lost me where you implied Muslim = Radical Extremist.

Essentially, if American troops lose their lives because of this book-burning, then that proves Jones was RIGHT, not wrong: Muslims are furious, violent people and their faith needs to be stamped into the dry dirt where it spawned from.

And yet if the book-burning doesn't take place, and American troops don't lose their lives over the book-burning, what would that mean then? The issue is not that black-and-white.

I suppose it wouldn't be any different of Muslims burned the Bible for the same reasons against Christianity then, would it? Because in all honesty, both sides have their fair share of violent believers and peaceful ones. And I'm sure Christians would really be offended if something like that happened just like Muslims would be.

And also, wouldn't that be even more ironic for Christians who participate in burning books of other religions: that they're nothing but arrogant, intolerant, radical people who tries to use their faith to justify everything they do (even if it goes AGAINST what is said in the bible)?

Kind of a two-way street for both religions, and it really doesn't make either one any better.

Also, anyone who opposes this action opposes free speech. Just sayin'. You can't get all wishy-washy and hand-wringing just when someone actually uses the right to free speech in a way that pricks your cosy little PC bubble.

Freedom of Speech is another two-way street that even benefits those who opposes said book-burning.

And to add on further, anyone who supports this action supports discrimination on behalf of religion and, to a lesser extent, race. You can't use freedom of speech as a shield to justify discrimination like this, and stooping to that kind of level (the book burning) makes you even worse than the "furious and violent" people you're against.

You don't fight religious extremism with religious extremism, and this only goes to further highlight that Christians are just as extreme as Muslims. It's even more jacked up when you consider that the guy hosting this event KNOWS that there is a large difference between radical Muslims and non-radical ones, yet is still going through with it regardless.

Hell, it's almost as if this is turning into a modern Crusades here.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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I think it's a good thing to get this shit on radar so as to minimize the possibility of it spreading like cancer. It would help in putting some serious pressure on people like this so as to make them regret it in the future. Even if he goes through with it, he'll be further demonized for being so intolerant and arrogant in terms of religion.

Sure it could still spread, but I'd rather be in the know of things than to be ignorant. This isn't exactly something so irrelevant like dropping a cat in a trash bin.

But come on man, stuff like this happens in small pockets in every country on this entire planet. Not just anti-muslim, but anti-christian, anti-jew, anti-black, anti-gay etc. So cases like this should hardly be surprising. The guy has had the anti-muslim sentiment for a while. Did anyone care a year ago? Were the people in pakistan burning flags over this last year? Of course not. As soon, as the media (essentially advertised it to the world), well we get our adverse reactions. Did they not expect that to happen?

Incidently, while I'm probably gonna get flamed for this. The Islamic community do have a small minority extremists among them (like any idealism), and cry out that they don't represent the view of the majority. Fair enough. But surely, they of all people should be able to discern that the extremists in other communities don't represent the views of the majority? And therefore respond, in a more ''constructive'' (I use this term lightly) way.

Edited by blackherox

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Okay..... now this issue comes full circle. And surprise surprise, it all had to lead back to the Islamic center in New York REPORT

Apparently, Jones has stated that he has canceled the book burning in exchange for the promise of the Islamic center in New York being relocated. A Fl. Imam has gone on record saying that his words were stretched and no such deal was ever offered. So I guess we have a he said - she said deal going on now.

...

*facepalm* and I thought the media was having a field day before.... We'll never hear the end of this.

Hope we can keep this topic civil enough to not get locked like the other one did.

Edited by Sega DogTagz

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But come on man, stuff like this happens in small pockets in every country on this entire planet. Not just anti-muslim, but anti-christian, anti-jew, anti-black, anti-gay etc. So cases like this should hardly be surprising.

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other where it happens or how surprising it is. Point is that this is the kind of stuff we should be against and is helpful that the media sheds light on the situation to the unknowing, at least the way I see it.

The guy has had the anti-muslim sentiment for a while. Did anyone care a year ago? Were the people in pakistan burning flags over this last year? Of course not. As soon, as the media (essentially advertised it to the world), well we get our adverse reactions. Did they not expect that to happen?

The reason know one cared was because there was nothing serious enough to care about at the time. When he mentioned somewhere down the line that he was going to host a burning of Qurans, that's something to worry about, especially given how there are people out there with an irrational fear of Muslims nowadays and with the discrimation against them to boot.

Okay..... now this issue comes full circle. And surprise surprise, it all had to lead back to the Islamic center in New York REPORT

Full circle? More like a square. [/not funny]

I'm really at a loss for words here.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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The people in charge of the mosque development near ground zero are saying NOTHING has been arranged, and all the sources in New York saying whatever is being discussed isn't a firm deal or anything. The Pastor claims he believes something is being discussed but it seems the guy maybe should of shut up about any potental deals

In any case it seems really weird to me that this guy who hates the Islamic faith so much suddenly is so willing to make a deal with what he assumes is that of the "devil". Suddenly smacks more of really stupid attention seeking just to move some religious center somewhere else

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In any case it seems really weird to me that this guy who hates the Islamic faith so much suddenly is so willing to make a deal with what he assumes is that of the "devil". Suddenly smacks more of really stupid attention seeking just to move some religious center somewhere else

Smacks even more of stupidity on his part thinking that the organizers of the mosque are going to move it somewhere else just because he made a 'deal'.

Edited by Axl

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Essentially, if American troops lose their lives because of this book-burning, then that proves Jones was RIGHT, not wrong: Muslims are furious, violent people and their faith needs to be stamped into the dry dirt where it spawned from.

Are you serious? If a bunch of people burn up the most important thing in your life, your religious faith, everything you believe in and completely desecrate it, they have every right to be angry about it. And considering how only a few people can pretty much create an image for the entire country (essentially how this guy came to hate Muslims in general, when the people responsible for 9/11 had nothing to do with them being Muslim), it's only going to give America a terrible image, and only make them feel more inclined to go against us and side with the extremists.

This guy is no different than the people who carried out the attacks on us; an extremist who's going against an entire group of people based on an irrational hatred, and stereotyping them all based on the actions of a select few.

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Can't really say much that hasn't already been said, but when you look at the big picture, the amount of Muslims who agree with Osama or Al-Qaeda has to be at the very most 5%. If Islam was completely composed of raging lunatics, we'd have a 9/11 virtually every day.

Edited by Hello. Look at my sig.

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It doesn't matter to me one way or the other where it happens or how surprising it is. Point is that this is the kind of stuff we should be against and is helpful that the media sheds light on the situation to the unknowing, at least the way I see it.

So by broadcasting it to the world, we somehow made the situation better? I don't really buy that. It's like the Raul Moat case in the UK, the very fact that the media focused on so much actually made things much worse.

We should be aginst stuff like this of course. But if you had a piece of film, for every stunt that some minority group pulled off, then that film would be near endless. The best solution, in my opinion, is to just ignore it, because it dosn't represent the view of the majority.

The reason know one cared was because there was nothing serious enough to care about at the time. When he mentioned somewhere down the line that he was going to host a burning of Qurans, that's something to worry about, especially given how there are people out there with an irrational fear of Muslims nowadays and with the discrimation against them to boot.

I'm willng to bet this isn't the first time he's burnt the Koran or something similar to that extent. Not to mention that he probably isn't the only one either. Lets be honest do you really think his is the first time, this has ever happened? It may just be me but I'm willing to except that there are lunatics across the globe who are from one extreme to the next, but who do not represent the views of the majority.

Stuff like this aint gonna make things better, proper communication between groups, does.

Are you serious? If a bunch of people burn up the most important thing in your life, your religious faith, everything you believe in and completely desecrate it, they have every right to be angry about it.

Right to anger yes. Righ to violence no. Like I said in my previous post, the islamic community of all communties should be able to at least discern that there are extremeists in other faiths and idealisms, just like their own.

It's like the cartoon written by the Dutch guy (albeit, I believe the muslims were in the wrong there) which involved the prophet Mohammed (although it incidently involved Jesus, and others). They had the right to be offended fair enough, and the Dutch writer could have been more tactful/respectful. But the backlash over this from the islamic community was so bad and the violence that ensured was completely unnessecary. And the writer wasn't even insuiating racial violence, like Jones.

Communicate in a constructive manner, otherwise ignore it. Anything outside of that and well you get problems.

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So by broadcasting it to the world, we somehow made the situation better?

No. By broadcasting it to the world, it brings light on the situation and informs those who are unaware of it. I didn't say it would make anything better. As a matter of fact, I even acknowledged in a previous post towards you that it could still spread even though the world knows about it, but that still doesn't mean it's irrelevant to be brought to the attention to the media and those who are willing to read up on it.

It's like the Raul Moat case in the UK, the very fact that the media focused on so much actually made things much worse.

What's the Raul Moat case? Was it as sensitive as a Christian pastor announcing the burning of another religion's sacred book?

We should be aginst stuff like this of course. But if you had a piece of film, for every stunt that some minority group pulled off, then that film would be near endless. The best solution, in my opinion, is to just ignore it, because it dosn't represent the view of the majority.

Then go along with what you think is best, no one is forcing you otherwise. I think the best solution is to bring light on it to those who want to be in the know, and I for one do not like to be left in the dark on things like this.

I'm willng to bet this isn't the first time he's burnt the Koran or something similar to that extent. Not to mention that he probably isn't the only one either. Lets be honest do you really think his is the first time, this has ever happened?

I personally don't give a damn whether it's his first, second, or millionth time he's burned a book. What I give a damn about his him bringing this attention to the rest of the world to know and for others to participate in.

And even if I did care about how many Qurans he's burned, I'm only convinced that this is his first time burning the book considering that 1) he hasn't read it 2) it's something that relates to the whole Islamic community center in New York, and 3) this likely would never have even occurred in the past before Islamophobia started shifting to high gear at this point in time. Even under Bush's presidency, there was very little focus on the religion than it was on potential terrorists themselves even when some people saw them synonymous together despite how unfair it was to profile a group as such.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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Because that would just be super assholish.

Just like how hating every race equally doesn't make you not raciest.

Being in a Religion shouldn't class as Race. You can get white Musilms and Hindus you know.

Racism is where you insult and mock the colour of one's skin and Ethnicity in a Extreme manner.

I think Prejudice is the word you looking for.

It bugs me when Reilious people use the Race card.

I personally think this a stupid move. Its only gonna make things worse. Its like a bunch monkeys throwing turds at each other, stupid and completely pointless.

People should focus on the really meaning of today, remember the victims regardless of Faith, Creed and Colour.

Edited by BW199148

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Muslims are mostly brown people from the Middle East and central Asia, down to south-east Asia. And many parts of Africa are Muslim. It wouldn't be wrong to say most Muslims are non-white, that's factual. Which is how it can become a race thing.

Jews also come from three or four groups of people in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa, each group with certain ethnic affiliations. It's like if all Christians were only either Coptic or Armenian, then you could be prejudiced against those certain people. Or course Christianity is much larger but that's an example.

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Essentially, if American troops lose their lives because of this book-burning, then that proves Jones was RIGHT, not wrong: Muslims are furious, violent people and their faith needs to be stamped into the dry dirt where it spawned from.

Nonsense. What will happen is that extremists, who are already extremist, will redouble their efforts against Westerners and furthermore use it as a tool to ensnare the gullible, in the exact same chain of events that could lead anyone to believe that buring a Qu'ran is the correct response to September 11.

Also, anyone who opposes this action opposes free speech. Just sayin'. You can't get all wishy-washy and hand-wringing just when someone actually uses the right to free speech in a way that pricks your cosy little PC bubble.

Actually, yes you can. It's called "incitement" and "causing a breach of the peace". They're illegal.

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Why do so many people downrep anyone who dares to speak the truth? Props to you for putting up with their bullshit!

Because it isn't the truth. It is hyperbolic nonsense. You would have known that had you done more than simply read what Frozen Nitrogen and noticed the post's low rep rating and decided to jump to his defense without reading any of the actual responses to his post.

I'm confused. I never got a straight answer out of anyone in the Mosque thread, so I guess I'll just ask it again: Since when do people's actions in another country give people in America the wholesale go-ahead to act like assholes? "They did it so I thought it was okay" is the kind of thing that they tell you is bullshit when you are in kindergarten. I was under the assumption that we were supposed to be the better, more educated and more advanced society. The role model, if you will.

That article article itself actually has a rather large swath of ignorance in it as well. Particularly the "Yet, I’ve grown up with images of burned American flags, dead American hostages, our troops dragged through streets, and psychotic masses of angry chanters preaching our death" bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam

Scroll down to the "Former Muslims" section.

So do you have some kind of point with that link?

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Why do so many people downrep anyone who dares to speak the truth?

Need a hint? Here's one: It's not the truth.

A Muslim extremist is no worse than a Christian extremist. A peaceful Muslim is no better than a peaceful Christian. The fact that Jones wanted to burn Quran shows that he can be quite an extreme Christian.

What the hell ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did that somehow get thrown out of the window? Because I was under the assumption that Jesus taught his followers to love, not to hate.

http://en.wikipedia....ticism_of_Islam

Scroll down to the "Former Muslims" section.

Yeah...a lot of that exists within Christianity to an extent and then some. Ever noticed how they're often ridiculed on the net as well, even moreso than Islam at times?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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Skip to :50

How about you argue the damn point yourself instead of hiding behind a video and expect it to make one for you?

Nothing happened to it.

Nothing happened to "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" either. (Admittedly, it's contradicted by "turn the other cheek" though.)

Wow...more of a reason for me to be an atheist.

The contradictions are not making Christianity any better in that case. And Christianity is certainly turning towards extremism among many people here in the US, but of course that's not a serious as Islam.

Except last I checked, "an eye for an eye" didn't originate from Jesus nor did he encourage it. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't make the person achieving the retribution any better than the other.

In the words of Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi, "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind".

Maybe that's because you can criticize any other religion without risking your life. :rolleyes:

Oh gee, ya think so? :rolleyes:

Also, that's another point. A point that was made in the link in my earlier post.

It's safer to criticise Christians than it is to criticize Islam because Islam takes the questionable parts of the bible (lol geyz r bad, wimmin shuld be killd 4 adultry, wifes xist 2 serv men, etc.) to much greater extremes (kill nonbileevers, geys, & wimmin who dont were there face coverz, cut off teh clitoris, etc) and they are far more frequent.

Really? So every one who practices Islam is a killer eh?

Funny, because if I'm not mistaken, Christianity has its extreme cults as well. Ever here of the Ku Klux Klan?

I am not saying Christianity is the best at tolerance. That honor goes to Buddhism, which, unlike Christianity and Islam, was never used as the driving force for war.

(And I'm not Buddhist, so don't pull that card)

No but you are giving a blind eye to one religion for another and parroting the same junk that you hear. You're labling Muslims as savages when in reality, that's only the people who are perverting the religion with extremism. Almost no different to how Indians were treated as savages during the early days of America, all because of a difference in culture.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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