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Sonic 4 said to have "few to no physics changes"

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I played an updated S4 build today guys.

It's honestly not that bad. Worst I managed to do was stand on the top of some curvature (and the way I was standing, it was sort of 'believable.'). I've not played the 'buggy physics' build (today was first time I had a hands on with S4 full stop) but it was nowhere near the shit I've seen in banners and those videos. And they sped up the running animation too, without actually speeding Sonic up.

Like I'm justifying the 'in-depth investigations' that people have about this physics ballbags anyway. Jesus Christ, it's a little bit sad.

The game's feeling right, bros. I honestly wouldn't hit that panic button just yet.

[saying no more - embargos are fun]

Glad to hear you liked it, Dread. Will you be writing a preview here and at SPOnG?

I enjoyed the E3 build at SoS. I saw the problems that people pointed out, but they didn't really bother me and didn't make the game less playable. Sure, the game would be a lot better with improved physics, but as long as the game is fun then I'm fine with it.

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Appropriate banners are already appearing at the SEGA Forums

Fixed.

Games are about gameplay. Physics are a part of gameplay. Sub-par physics equals sub-par gameplay.

I'm pretty disappointed by this news (although, I should have seen it coming). I was holding out hope on a true return to the classic gameplay (which is what this is supposed to be, right, marketing team?), but it's now clear that they're willing to phone it in and be satisfied. They don't have to try, because, sadly, it will still sell. What I've missed over the years, in retrospect, has been Sonic's unique, physics-based gameplay. It inspired me to learn ridiculous amounts of math to understand it because I thought it was so cool and interesting. It's not coming back and that's just disheartening.

Especially when there has been a Sonic Physics Guide for years. Like my friend Aerosol said at Retro, "it's like failing an open book test."

Like I'm justifying the 'in-depth investigations' that people have about this physics ballbags anyway. Jesus Christ, it's a little bit sad.

Thanks, Dread. ...Appreciate it.

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Fixed.

Games are about gameplay. Physics are a part of gameplay. Sub-par physics equals sub-par gameplay.

I'm pretty disappointed by this news (although, I should have seen it coming). I was holding out hope on a true return to the classic gameplay (which is what this is supposed to be, right, marketing team?), but it's now clear that they're willing to phone it in and be satisfied. They don't have to try, because, sadly, it will still sell. What I've missed over the years, in retrospect, has been Sonic's unique, physics-based gameplay. It inspired me to learn ridiculous amounts of math to understand it because I thought it was so cool and interesting. It's not coming back and that's just disheartening.

Especially when there has been a Sonic Physics Guide for years. Like my friend Aerosol said at Retro, "it's like failing an open book test."

Thanks, Dread. ...Appreciate it.

Do they even know that exists?

How can they use something they have never even heard of.

Yeah its there, but....its not quite that simple.

I guess after all these shenanigans they probably have heard of it though...beit from well-organised complain letters or from death threats, but I'm sure by know they know at least what Sonic Retro is...

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Thanks, Dread. ...Appreciate it.

*Shrug* I'm just going by the best possible source I know. Myself. And I've had no issues with the physics or whatever. The way everyone makes it sound like, I was expecting broken, 'Sonic-06-on-a-2D-plane' physics. Instead I got a game that felt a bit like Sonic 1, with a tad too many speed boosters and a homing attack. Hardly the massive stab to my heart that I was led to believe it was. Everyone's romanced by this idea that it has to play -exactly- like Sonic 3&K or bust. But it doesn't - and that's not necessarily a bad thing, objectively.

EDIT: To wit, if we're talking about physicality and 'feel' of engines; Sonic 2 played, and looked extremely different to Sonic 1. Sonic 3&K played, and looked, nothing like Sonic 2 and Sonic 1 before it. Sonic Advance played and looked like none of the above. But they all played - and looked - damn fine.

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=D Those are my screenshots being used on those appropriate banners! I feel so honoured!

I fully agree with what you've said there, Brad. Still expecting the game to be somewhat fun, but not as fun as it should be nor is it what it should be.

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*Shrug* I'm just going by the best possible source I know. Myself. And I've had no issues with the physics or whatever. The way everyone makes it sound like, I was expecting broken, 'Sonic-06-on-a-2D-plane' physics. Instead I got a game that felt a bit like Sonic 1, with a tad too many speed boosters and a homing attack. Hardly the massive stab to my heart that I was led to believe it was. Everyone's romanced by this idea that it has to play -exactly- like Sonic 3&K or bust. But it doesn't - and that's not necessarily a bad thing, objectively.

So pretty much, unless you put this game into a machine that'll magically then produce a diagram or a series of numbers that tell you the exact mathematical properties of the physics and every single aspect of how the game does what it does... or you're actively going "Right so wheres these borked physics" every second instead of playing the game... chances are you either won't notice or care?

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So this is basically what you're all trying to say:

"Its not bad, but its underwhelming as 'Sonic 4'"

Am I right in saying this?

Also, I'm kinda sick of people saying that the game is a peice of shit. It clearly is not.

Its not as good as Sonic 3K, but that doesn't mean its a peice of shit.

Its like some people are looking at it as if there are only two outcomes.

As good/better than Genesis/Mega Drive, or Garbage. It seems there is little room for an alternative. Especially at retro.

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So this is basically what you're all trying to say:

"Its not bad, but its underwhelming as 'Sonic 4'"

Am I right in saying this?

No. Well, not me anyway.

To add to this physics debate, I'm struggling to find many instances of real, honest-to-God 'pinball/spinball physics' in ANY Sonic game since the original 1991 Mega Drive Sonic the Hedgehog.

I'm genuinely interested. Can anyone give examples where Sonic 2 and (particularly) S3&K actually follow the same level design guidelines established in Sonic 1? 'Casino' Zones, where you're bouncing all over the place, don't count - I'm talking about specific, momentum-based puzzles and level navigation, ala Star Light Zone/Spring Yard Zone, not the simple concept of branching paths.

EDIT: The best I can think of involve one or two small cases in Chemical Plant Zone (but that also means you need the 'herp derp speed boosters,' negating that if you're trying to prove a physics point), one ramp in Hydrocity Act 2 (you know the one), and some genuine areas in Metropolis and Death Egg. Barrel doesn't count.

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Well, I'm glad that I've never been a stickler for physics in Sonic games. Too bad for people who are though.

I hope they at least got rid of his shitty flying off a ramp animation and let him stay in a ball.

However, I will be disappointed if this doesn't get changed.

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EDIT: To wit, if we're talking about physicality and 'feel' of engines; Sonic 2 played, and looked extremely different to Sonic 1. Sonic 3&K played, and looked, nothing like Sonic 2 and Sonic 1 before it. Sonic Advance played and looked like none of the above. But they all played - and looked - damn fine.

This I already know. The engines aren't that different, however. If you open them up and compare, there's very little change.

The noticeable changes are within the player object to allow for new moves, like insta-shield, or covering collision bugs found in previous games.

Can anyone give examples where Sonic 2 and (particularly) S3&K actually follow the same level design guidelines established in Sonic 1?

Each game brought a unique style to the plate in terms of level design. Level "tropes" might have been re-used (the green level, the water level), but there was uniqueness to be found with each game. There was one constant, however, and was the engine.

Edited by Slingerland

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Most people that have played Sonic 4, journos that reviewed it, people lucky enough to demo it and misc have had mostly good things to say about Sonic 4. Bar the few levels that are now fixed (which journos had noted as weak spots regardless of cheeky so-and-so's sneaking into panthernet and leaking the whole early beta) and odd issues here and there which have been fixed

Some of the physics were kind of funky sure, but its kind of like Rush in a way and that wasnt a bad game (personal opinion may vary but overall Rush's problem was it's pit syndrome not it's physics). Me and a friend both managed to play Sonic 4 at SoS and I think between us the only concern with the running animation which has already been fixed, Splash Hill was *fun* and thats all that matters to me

But I'm not going to really get into that debate, at this point people will think what they want to think. I'm just going to wait for its final release, because at this point I want to stop debating about this game and what's right or wrong with it, and simply *play it*.

Edited by jennytablina

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So one of the few people who actually played the game said that it seemed alright.

Interesting.

Hey, I've played it, too. It, unfortunately, was the PartnerNET leak. Bugs I see in that leak persist in videos of the E3 experience.

On a different note, don't let my disappointment bring you down or lead to fight. If you're still pleased, then by all means, have at it.

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This I already know. The engines aren't that different, however. If you open them up and compare, there's very little change.

The noticeable changes are within the player object to allow for new moves, like insta-shield, or covering collision bugs found in previous games.

The argument is that Sonic 4 'plays nothing like the classics,' right? My point is that there is no real uniform classic gameplay to speak of. Sonic 4 plays just as much of a physics imitation of Sonic 1 as Sonic 2 does. Or as much of an imitation of S3&K as Sonic 1 does. Yes, if you open up the source code and dig right in deep, you'll probably find that the physics engine is written in all this gobbledegook that, dangnabbit, Sonic Team/Dimps/The Colonel shouldn't DARE to consider writing. But obviously, the hangups are in the hackers' idea of how they perceive the code to be written, and that muddies the judgment of the actual gameplay itself.

It's a bit like buying a supposedly genuine classic car, only to find out that it's been made out of refurbished parts. Who cares about the engine being 100% identical to the Mega Drive original when it can replicate a pretty fine experience on the outside anyway? Unless you invest your time buying the classic car of course - but then that has no parallel in the Sonic fanbase. None of us should be investing time, money or emotion into what goes under the hood of a Sonic game, surely, so why are we complaining that a 'Sonic 4' that plays like a 'new classic' is using new parts?

Each game brought a unique style to the plate in terms of level design. Level "tropes" might have been re-used (the green level, the water level), but there was uniqueness to be found with each game. There was one constant, however, and was the engine.

If the engine wasn't going to be used in Sonic 2, 3 and Knuckles for the purpose outlined in Sonic 1, what is the point in keeping it constant? Perhaps it was so, back in the Mega Drive days, because it was simply easier to use a contemporary engine that was competent at doing the job they wanted. It's now 2010, and said engine has either been lost in the annals of Sega development or simply isn't contemporary enough for a modern classic. If Sonic 4 aims to emulate the same kind of platforming experiences Sonic 2, 3 and Knuckles did (which it looks to be doing), then there's absolutely no need to revive or replicate that engine, because it simply would be a waste of time.

EDIT: Want to make it clear Brad, that I'm not railing on your opinion to be disappointed. I'm simply pointing out why thinking about the game from a codebase level doesn't make sense to me. We're not coders, we're amateur hobbyists that like to pull ROMs apart at the very best. And at the end of the day, I thought it was all about the gameplay, not the perceived idea that Sega should be reviving dinosaur code that was proven to be 'broken' back in 1992 in the first place. :P

You probably got that anyway cos you're pretty funky, but yeah. Never can tell on the intarnets! *comedy jingle*

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Well it might not play exactly like the classics, but I do think it looks pretty fun.

So Dreadknux, how about telling us if Sonic still does that strange flying through the air thing when shooting from a ramp. I'm sure everyone here would love to..........

[saying no more - embargos are fun]

Curses!

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Uh oh, Dreadknux is on their payroll now.

Joking. I am joking. Hey guys, Dread says it's not bad. That's alright with me.

And I will take you up on that spinball challenge. Aside from Sonic CD...

Marble Garden has some long falls where rolling physics might matter. Mushroom Hill has a lot of high flying areas if you go looking for the special stage rings. Any proper loop or hill requires spinball physics. Hill Top Zone. Lava Reef has areas where you run on the ceiling. A few Sandopolis slides and speed traps need momentum.

I'm sure there's more if I think about it. The whole of Knuckles Chaotix was momentum puzzles explored with a second character.

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Uh oh, Dreadknux is on their payroll now.

Joking. I am joking. Hey guys, Dread says it's not bad. That's alright with me.

And I will take you up on that spinball challenge. Aside from Sonic CD...

Marble Garden has some long falls where rolling physics might matter. Mushroom Hill has a lot of high flying areas if you go looking for the special stage rings. Any proper loop or hill requires spinball physics. Hill Top Zone. Lava Reef has areas where you run on the ceiling. A few Sandopolis slides and speed traps need momentum.

I'm sure there's more if I think about it. The whole of Knuckles Chaotix was momentum puzzles explored with a second character.

Yeah, but knuckles chaotix was a whole other beast.

(unrelated, but the Pink wisp in Co-op, has remarkbly similar controls to Chaotix, except with two people. The Physics would almost match Chaotix)

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Dread's post

This. Not good at putting my opinions into words, so this is essentially the best way of explaining it. It shouldn't matter if the physics are exactly the same as the classics, what matters is that the experience is like the classics, which Sonic 4 has for the most part succeeded in, thanks to the level design which really looks like a return to form.

Edited by Black Spy

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(unrelated, but the Pink wisp in Co-op, has remarkably similar controls to Chaotix, except with two people. The Physics would almost match Chaotix)

Actually after repeated viewings I think that tether is just a simple line that damages enemies. Like without restricting your partner's movement at all.

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Actually after repeated viewings I think that tether is just a simple line that damages enemies. Like without restricting your partner's movement at all.

It does that yes, but there were parts which involved some kind of swinging or something....i dunno.

Also

I think it'll be largely very positive feedback, especially among older fans. The Werehog was pretty polarizing; either you loved it or you hated it. I'm hoping the hints for the future at the end of the first Episode will be something a large group of people will be excited for.

I loved the Super Emeralds. My brother and I played a whole lot of S3&K, so getting the final seven for the Hyper (or Super, depending on who you play) transformation was a fun challenge.

That last part..............

EDIT: FYI he quoted someone who asked if the new stuff in episode 2 would be as radical as ther Werehog.

Nowhere were Super Emeralds, or even regular emerals mentioned in said conversation.

So then....why did he bring them up....

Edited by Scar

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More from RubyEclipse:

Often times, the campaign as a whole dictates that certain things have to be announced on specific dates, that X publication gets an exclusive first, or that certain things can't be revealed until key points. It should be very obvious that we wanted people to be excited about Needlemouse - just as every game company does with every single game they make. I was just as excited to hear the game was coming, and that I'd even have the chance to work on it. That said, there's a difference between this excitement and how open a company is with their fans on key issues.

I warned of those consequences because they most definitely were just that - if not from SEGA, then from Microsoft. Remember that it wasn't as much about the details as it was claims to release a stolen early build of the game, which is extremely punishable by law. We could have easily left videos up, sure, but being that they don't represent the final game, we don't want people to form negative opinions based on things that aren't finished. It was a lot more work, but it was work that I think will be worth it when people do finally see what the completed game is like.

There's also a difference between wanting to improve a game and knowing realistically that rebuilding every single aspect of it from the ground up is not possible, as was the case with our added months of development time. Changing the physics for the entire game (and subsequently level design across the board) did not take a backseat - it was looked at in the spotlight, examined, and only then determined that it was not possible to adjust to a major extent, given what it would require on a grander scale.

But I'll take it a step further. I think the biggest things we have changed - like Lost Lab Act II, among others - are some of the most important things that needed attention in the game. I say that having played this game from early build to semi-final build, having collected all seven chaos emeralds, and having been right there fighting from the beginning for many of the things people on this forum would like to see. Physics are very important to me, but even the best physics in the world mean nothing if the game isn't fun and enjoyable. Our biggest goal was that: making sure that the game was fun in every stage, from start to finish.

More responses to other posts coming in just a minute. :)

http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=20386&view=findpost&p=502884

First, take a step back and realize that you're making some very sweeping generalizations here. I have been to almost every game show that Sonic 4 has appeared at, from Seattle to London to Los Angeles, and I've even had many community members on forums like this one play it and then tell me they thought it was very good. Consistently, when people get their hands on it and play it, we get a really positive response.

Your own opinion does not constitute an entire community, just as this forum does not constitute the entirety of the oldschool Sonic community. Each are important parts, and all should be treated with equal respect, but be careful to avoid those massive generalizations or the thinking that every single older Sonic fan out there agrees with your viewpoints.

I am aware of the fan created physics guide - Tweaker and SS linked me to it long ago. I was very impressed by it and even passed it along internally. As I've mentioned, it wasn't that we didn't want to look at big updates to the physics, but simply that we couldn't implement them, given the time and the resources allotted during the dev extension.

Also, it is not stupefyingly easy to make some fans happy - trust me. If we give you a game just like the classics, someone will inevitably complain that there's nothing new. If we make a game with something new it, someone will inevitably complain that it's not exactly like the classics. The circle just keeps on looping from there.

I am very hopeful though that both old fans and new fans alike will be able to have fun playing through the game when it releases. Everything we're seeing at the shows - like last weekend's PAX - is pointing in that direction, and those are actually still the E3 builds. Personally, I'm still quite optimistic, but I realize that not everyone will be happy 100% of the time - with opinions that vary, this is a given.

I do also realize there are a great many of you lurkers out there who are holding your judgment until you play it - or are actually in favor of the many changes we have made and can't wait to try the game. On forums like these it's often scary to jump in and offer opinions that go against the flow, but I thank you guys nonetheless for all your support and the messages you send over. You make it worth it!

http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=20386&view=findpost&p=502898

I actually think Sonic 4 (and colors) both give you quite a bit of freedom. There are parts where it's on-rails and your path is set, but for much of both games your own skill determines which path you can stay on. The highest paths are the best and filled with all the good stuff, but they're the most challenging to stay on and require accurate jumps, timing, etc.

Certainly, neither Sonic 4 or Colors are as on-rails as games like Secret Rings or Black Knight, so I think the trend actually goes backwards in favor of exploration and freedom with both games.

For the future of Sonic 4, it's still too early for me to confirm anything regarding the next episode, but I am passing on all the feedback. I agree with the many of you who would love to see really classic style gameplay again, and am pushing to help get it some attention with every opportunity I can.

http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=20386&view=findpost&p=502954

I think it'll be largely very positive feedback, especially among older fans. The Werehog was pretty polarizing; most people either loved it or hated it. I'm hoping the hints for the future at the end of the first Episode will be something a large group of people will be excited for.

I loved the Super Emeralds. My brother and I played a whole lot of S3&K, so getting the final seven for the Hyper (or Super, depending on who you play) transformation was a fun challenge.

http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=20386&view=findpost&p=502964

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Hey, I've played it, too. It, unfortunately, was the PartnerNET leak. Bugs I see in that leak persist in videos of the E3 experience.

On a different note, don't let my disappointment bring you down or lead to fight. If you're still pleased, then by all means, have at it.

I respect your viewpoint, Slingerland, because I know that you have personally played it. I, and many other people have not. Because of this fact, we can only gauge the general quality of the game off of videos and such. Which, to state the obvious, isn't all that great of a way to go about it. The main thing that annoys me is the pessimistic little shits that cry out at every little thing and make the fanbase as a whole look idiotic. I get transferred embarrassment from these fools, really I do.

It's not even just with Sonic 4. It's with everything. People need to stop being so childish.

Edited by Chooch

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If they aren't really improving the physics, then why are there countless videos with Ken Balough and RubyEclipse talking about how physics are a major part of the delay?

Wow....really bad effort on SEGA's part. Especially when unpaid fans can get the physics so perfect, like the Retro Sonic engine.

Horrible....just horrible. The game is a bit of a disgrace.

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