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Sonic 4 said to have "few to no physics changes"

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It's getting another delay then?

Hmm..

I liked what I played at SoS, the physics weren't the best evar, but for the most part it was fine.

I'm more annoyed at the fact they're retconning the S3+K storyline. Leave it alone!

Where'd you get that from oO. It's not being delayed and the S3&K story was retconned on the official site (Thats so important, right?), but I guess they fixed that.

Edited by MarcelloF

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No it isn't.

What S4 needs is a restart, not a delay.

You may be right on this. If they are going to insist that they can't fix the physics without changing the level design then fine, change the level design. I say scrap everything but the basics and start fresh.

Up until a moment ago I've thought that I would *enjoy* Sonic 4 no matter what as a 2D Sonic game, but right now I'm just really pissed off at SEGA and it's hard to have fun when you're mad. Maybe my feelings will change, but for the first time I'm considering not downloading it :(

Sorry if I sound bitter guys, but I sort of am.

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i'm not gonna lie, i'm disappointed. however, i've always thought the game looked good and fun, even in the leaked stages. sure, it didn't look exactly like a sonic 4 should physics wise, but it looked like a step in the right direction for the 2D side of the franchise. And it still does.

My biggest issue is the automation that a lot of you have hit on the head. the difference to me between springs and the like in the classics and then in sonic 4 is that in the classic levels, it felt as if sonic was encountering a path that he had to think about to get through. i'm saying, think about it from sonic's perspective. here's all these platforms and pits and badniks and springs that could all prevent me from getting to robotnik. because as phos pointed out, not all springs in the classics were beneficial, in fact, many were not. but in sonic 4, i think sonic would see it more as, oh cool, look at this fun set of ramps and stuff that i get to run real fast through. it just doesn't seem as if the level is trying to prevent sonic from getting to the end anymore. i dunno if that makes sense at all, but oh well

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Where do people get the idea that casual Sonic fans won't notice the different physics? Of course they will. They may not be able to pinpoint what exactly is different like we can, but they will still realize it's very off.

Check out this preview from PAX:

http://www.hotbloodedgaming.com/2010/09/06/pax-2010-sonic-4-episode-1-impressions/

The gameboy advance versions were all 2-D, but felt right. I hate to say it, but Sonic 4 just didn’t feel right. There was something about it that just didn’t set well with me.

Yeah, no shit the GBA games "felt right". The Sonic Advance physics were almost exactly like the Genesis physics. I predict a lot of reviews will say something along the lines of "not feeling right" before giving the game a 5/10.

Yes, good physics are important for Sonic. It's why those Sonic-clones from the 90s were horrible. They had crappy physics. The great physics from the Sonic games on the Genesis is what made Sonic games unique and challenging.

If there's a very steep slope, Sonic shouldn't be able to casually walk up it like in Sonic 4. He should stop, go back a little, and try to build up speed to make it up the slope. (Or you can stop and spindash.) But if you are skilled enough, you would already have the momentum built up from earlier in the level to get up the slope in one shot. Sonic should also have inertia when he moves. (Not drop like a rock when you let go of the D-pad in Sonic 4.) He should speed up when he rolls down hills. The player should be able to use these qualities skillfully to travel through the environment with grace and speed.

That is the essence of Sonic the Hedgehog. And it's missing in Sonic 4.

Edited by Dr. SEGA Monkey

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Yeah, no shit the GBA games "felt right". The Sonic Advance physics were almost exactly like the Genesis physics. I predict a lot of reviews will say something along the lines of "not feeling right" before giving the game a 5/10.

I really don't think this is going to be the case. I'm almost positive the game will see decent/good review scores all around.

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Where do people get the idea that casual Sonic fans won't notice the different physics? Of course they will. They may not be able to pinpoint what exactly is different like we can, but they will still realize it's very off.

Check out this preview from PAX:

http://www.hotbloodedgaming.com/2010/09/06/pax-2010-sonic-4-episode-1-impressions/

Yeah, no shit the GBA games "felt right". The Sonic Advance physics were almost exactly like the Genesis physics. I predict a lot of reviews will say something along the lines of "not feeling right" before giving the game a 5/10.

If you're right about the scores of the game then SEGA is screwed on this game. It would be one thing if the game wasn't episodic, then the scores would have less of an impact on sales. But if E1 gets crappy scores people aren't going to buy future episodes. Imagine if Sonic the Hedgehog 06 had been episodic, the sales would almost certainly have dropped with every episode released. That's the risk SEGA is facing here if something dramatic isn't done.

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I doubt the game will do that bad in ratings. I'm guessing the worst will be 7's, but it'll mostly be 8's, because to most reviewers it's the return to the classics.

Jaouad:

How is this being abused as a cash-in? The team is working hard on making a good game for fans. Just because it isn't exactly like them, doesn't mean it sucks. If it was just a cash-in, they would of released the first build.

Of course it's main objective is earning money, but to call it a cash-in is silly, imo.

Edited by MarcelloF

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Well yeah, honestly they deserve it, but that's my opinion. I can't stand seeing what was one of the greatest things in my childhood, getting abused as some kind of cash in.

It just isn't right

Your childhood is not being abused.

Its not like they took S3K and fucked it up.

All they are doing is taking a number, and making a game.

Thats all it is; 4 is a NUMBER!!!!

It doesn't mean anything more than the fact that it takes place after 3.

It not ruining anyones childhood. The games from your childhood still exist unadulterated in various forms.

If anything, they are ruining the present.

Yes its underwhelming, as a so-called sequel, but it doesn't make the classics look bad (it makes them look better)

Yes this is the Sonic the Hedgehog 4, and you were allowed to have high expectation, but given the state of the franchise and SEGA, it would only be logical to keep expectations at a moderate level.

No matter how much SEGA suddenly started caring, they can't climb back up the mountain they fallen so far down, in a single game. It will taken some time (maybe thats why its episodic)

OK pointless rant over.

However my point still stans. SEGA aren't ruining your childhood, they are ruining your present.

Edited by Scar

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I never said they were ruining my childhood but they were ruining a game from my childhood. Which was a wrong way to say it, I meant sequal to one of the greatest things of my childhood.

Other than that.

fair enough ;)

Edited by Jaouad

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I really don't think this is going to be the case. I'm almost positive the game will see decent/good review scores all around.

Even if certain reviewers don't care about the bad physics, it will still get marked down for having very little content.

Seriously, only 4 zones? The game can be completed in like 30 minutes. One playable character? No bonus stages? Very easy acts that are a lot shorter than S3&K acts? This is all going to be looked down upon when the game is being reviewed. Especially since this game is going to cost at least $10.

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I've always said that if anyone's childhood or anything from the childhood is actually ruined by insignificant things like sequels, their memories and the objects of them probably weren't that precious to begin with. :P

Whether Sega are ruining anything now is more arguable. It's undeniable that the game has design and technological imperfections, but at the same time, the classics weren't perfect either. A deliberate false equivalency, but the point I'm getting at here is that none of this invalidates the simple positive feelings that this game has aroused from the general public and critics alike, feelings almost forgotten, and sometimes it seems like the game's detractors are trying to ram such an implication home. "They only played it for five minutes at a convention; Anyone would be excited under those circumstances. If they played it extensively like I did, they'd hate it the same as me."

Or maybe they just simply liked playing it? Is it that hard to imagine? The implication is admittedly a part of why I have such an apathy in this game, and frankly it's just posh, but perhaps I'm overstating an issue. We all understand the game has problems, but the problems of any video game still serve to have different effects across a group's experiences, just as a game's strengths do. It's all subjective yo. :P But I dunno; I just think some people are being way too rash about the whole damned thing, and that's not even taking into account just how much we actually shot the messenger yesterday. As I said before, I am not enviable of Ruby.

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I doubt the game will do that bad in ratings. I'm guessing the worst will be 7's, but it'll mostly be 8's, because to most reviewers it's the return to the classics.

Jaouad:

How is this being abused as a cash-in? The team is working hard on making a good game for fans. Just because it isn't exactly like them, doesn't mean it sucks. If it was just a cash-in, they would of released the first build.

Of course it's main objective is earning money, but to call it a cash-in is silly, imo.

If it wasn't a cash-in, the game would have been made with more competence from the start. There'd be a physics engine that was built for the purpose of this game. The fact that the game was delayed after fans affirmed what some staff didn't like throws a wrench in the theory somewhat, but that doesn't change the fact that this game is not what it's being advertised as. I suppose the game just has the most awful directing.

Edited by Blue Blood

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Even if certain reviewers don't care about the bad physics, it will still get marked down for having very little content.

Seriously, only 4 zones? The game can be completed in like 30 minutes. One playable character? No bonus stages? Very easy acts that are a lot shorter than S3&K acts? This is all going to be looked down upon when the game is being reviewed. Especially since this game is going to cost at least $10.

Well, it IS supposed to be just a prologue D:

Edited by ENVY16

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Jaouad:

How is this being abused as a cash-in? The team is working hard on making a good game for fans. Just because it isn't exactly like them, doesn't mean it sucks. If it was just a cash-in, they would of released the first build.

Of course it's main objective is earning money, but to call it a cash-in is silly, imo.

Well i'm not certain about that myself of course, since there is no proof. But come on, sonic 4 doesn't really look like a game that has been made with a lot of passion.. does it to you? The classics are known for being very good games and so obviously the name sonic 4 is gonna sell.

Now combine product not made with passion + sonic 4... hmmmmm

Well that's sort of my theorie. It could have also been that they called the game sonic 4 and dimps ended up doing some crazy shit. Maybe they weren't capable so they just went for the rush physics. Whatever, who cares, the product is what it is and people are going to notice how it feels off just like the interview placed by monkey

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How can Sonic 4 be viewed as anything but a cash-in? Remember that the entire game is pandering to nostalgia, and it's designed with players in mind who haven't touched a Sonic game in years. Zones such as Green Hill, Casino Night, and Labyrinth are easily recognizable among veteran fans, and everybody remembers the Sonic 1 wrecking ball boss or Sonic 2's giant Robotnik robot final boss. That's the whole reason this game consists of nothing but recycled material.

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Hilariously, Sonic 4 is the only game of its type (retro-style titles like MM9 and whatnot) to actually consist of nothing but recycled material. All the other retro-styled titles I know of actually have original content in a retro-styled package.

Seriously, when even Capcom doesn't get this lazy, you know it's a blatant cash-in.

Edited by Masaru Daimon

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Lets not forget that the classics weren't exactly projects of pure passion. They may have become so afterwards, but Sonic's whole existance was based soley on out-selling Mario, but being the emobdiment of "cool" and speed.

Sonic the Hedgehog was a reaction to Mario.

Sonic the Hedgehog 4 is also a reaction, but its a reaction to the state of the Franchises reputation. Its being made in very different circumstances.

Back in the day, SEGA needed to compete with Mario and sell a console.

This is part of the reason why Mario (yes Zelda and whatnot included) are so successful. Each game has to sell an console. If Mario (or Zelda and whathaveyou) were to become poor, then there would be no reason for gamers to buy a Nintendo Console.

Sonic Adeventure 1 and 2 were very good games because they had to sell consoles. Now Sonic just needs to be good enough to provide a reasonably steady income.

However, people have become wary and this kind of coasting just doesn't cut it any more.

I already have a theory on why this (and next) years games are being made in this way.

Sonic 4 and its episodes would given the gaming community reason to put their faith in Sonic as a franchise.

Then after S4E1 was released in the summer, Colours could come out and put faith back into 3D Sonic games.

After Colours blew everyone away, gamers, not just Sonic fans, would actually be willing to buy the 20th Anniversary game or any other big budget smasher that comes along later on.

Sadly, the leak laid Sonic 4's purpose in the grave, as it was magnificently upstaged by Colours.

Sure its a really bad way to do it, but I reckon Sonic 4's sole purpose was to quickly and cheaply rebuild part of Sonics reputation (of being somewhat consistently good in 2D).

That way they could focus their budget on larger games coming along later. The episodic nature would allow people to keep that faith because no matter how many ways you cut it, people just eat 2D Sonic up. Episodes are also are a much better way of managing budget. They don't have to commit a whole budget all at once, and they can spend the cash needed for it, in installments.

Just a theory, but not alltogether impossible.

Besides, Sonic's sales have been on the decline, so financially, this would be a very good way of setting things up. In fact its an excellent way of making Sonic a worthy mascot again.

It was so good that fate just had to screw it up.

Edited by Scar

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I really don't think this is going to be the case. I'm almost positive the game will see decent/good review scores all around.

Agreed. Just about every preview has been glowing with positivity. And given the delay to improve things, reception will most likely be even better. Even Hilary Goldstein seemed very content in his preview. And to say that he's been a bit harsh on Sonic is an understatement.

The only way I can see this game getting mediocre reviews is if the critics take notice of the massive complaining the fans are doing (which is kinda happening already) and decided to copy n paste their arguments into the reviews. Otherwise, it's destined for a solid 80-83 average or so.

Seriously, only 4 zones? The game can be completed in like 30 minutes. One playable character? No bonus stages? Very easy acts that are a lot shorter than S3&K acts? This is all going to be looked down upon when the game is being reviewed. Especially since this game is going to cost at least $10.

If Sonic 4 is $15 like Rocket Knight Adventures was, then it would get labeled as being over priced. But it will most likely be fine at $10. That's the standard price for DL games. Besides, the handheld Sonic's that cost $30 dollars could be beat just as fast but they weren't pnalized for it.

And the "one playable character" thing would be a positive if anything. Critics can't stand any of Sonic's friends. Apparently, not even Tails or Knuckles (oh IGN).

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I think we are once again putting Sonic 4 on too high a pedestal. No matter how much Sega really want to make us think otherwise, Sonic 4 is a cash-in, because they need the money to put towards actually improving Sonic's status in the present. Sonic 4 isn't, and never was intended to be Sonic Game of the Year, it's only purpose was to give fans and the general audience something to tide them over and bring in more cash for bigger and better things.

This is not the game Sega are going to be giving their 100% focus on, this is not the game that's gonna lead the Sonic games of the future, this is just Sega taking advantage of a popular name and nostalgia and using it to help sell a game and give them a better image.

New Super Mario Bros had a clear motive; to bring back the classic Mario gameplay of old and revamp it into a modern era.

Mega Man 9 & 10 had a clear motive; to provide a authentic retro experience in a whole new game.

Sonic 4 has a clear motive; to give them more income.

Is it disappointing? A little, yes. Is it understandable? Yes.

I still hope that future episodes bring in more content to the table, and make a more well rounded experience with more features from both old and new Sonic games. But frankly, I'm not going to be losing ant sleep over this game.

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Every magazine I've read said it feels just like the classics.

Some magazines haven't really played a proper Sonic game in years. We'll see if they notice when they have to play through the whole thing.

Whether Sega are ruining anything now is more arguable. It's undeniable that the game has design and technological imperfections, but at the same time, the classics weren't perfect either. A deliberate false equivalency, but the point I'm getting at here is that none of this invalidates the simple positive feelings that this game has aroused from the general public and critics alike, feelings almost forgotten, and sometimes it seems like the game's detractors are trying to ram such an implication home. "They only played it for five minutes at a convention; Anyone would be excited under those circumstances. If they played it extensively like I did, they'd hate it the same as me."

The point is that trade show impressions aren't always really good indication of a game's quality. Not dieing randomly? Able to get a handle on the controls? Able to get to the end of the preview section? That's basically all a preview can really tell you. It's not hard to find positive previews of games that turned out pretty abysmal, and often that is because you need to spend a bit of time with a game before you start finding its problems. For example, It takes a while to start running into the main problems with Too Human. The major ones don't even show up in the demo at all, and that demo was about a half hour long. It's just one quick roomful of enemies after another. And plus, the first level of most recent Sonic games has been passable.

Or maybe they just simply liked playing it? Is it that hard to imagine? The implication is admittedly a part of why I have such an apathy in this game, and frankly it's just posh, but perhaps I'm overstating an issue. We all understand the game has problems, but the problems of any video game still serve to have different effects across a group's experiences, just as a game's strengths do. It's all subjective yo. :P But I dunno; I just think some people are being way too rash about the whole damned thing, and that's not even taking into account just how much we actually shot the messenger yesterday. As I said before, I am not enviable of Ruby.

I'm not saying that none of them would enjoy the whole game, just that circumstance has most likely resulted in more favorable opinions than I think we would have seen otherwise.

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My reaction to the Episode 1-hate bitchstorm at the Sega Forums:

O_O Oh. My. God. Talk about people leaving behind their premenstrual pills!

Okay, I can understand feeling disappointed, because the announcement made me feel a little glum. The physics feel loose and aren't as tight as the Classics are. Needless to say, I'm not entirely happy to see how "incomplete" Episode 1's physics appear to be.

But is it really worth throwing a hissy fit over it like an asteroid crashing into Earth?

I. Think. NOT!

So, the physics may not be greatly changed. Okay. I'm not fully happy with it, because I was expecting changes. But it's also not worth crying over. I'm not interested in throwing a tantrum over it.

I get the update. I feel glum for ten minutes. Now I'm moving on. I'll play for what it is. I know that the first episode's physics backbone could've been much tighter, but I'll live. It's not 2012; my house isn't being burned down; and I'm not going to be a child and whine, cry, cuss like a sailor, bash, and risk getting banned. I'll play the game whenever I get the chance and have fun with it. Episode 1 may not have the best physics, but they could've been much worse.

Heck, it really could've been worse:

1. The E3 build could've been the one we're getting for Episode 1. We actually DO have level design changes, so we know that Dimps was committed to making some form of progress. The current build actually DOES have several differences, even in a level design standpoint. There would've been greater controversy if the game wasn't delayed. THAT I'm grateful, 'cause if nothing was changed, then this forum would really be hell.

2. Episode 1's physics actually DO have polish, unlike the GBA's Sonic Genesis.

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There seems to be a lot of negativity going around again. I can't say it's wrong to feel that way since this vision of Sonic 4 differs greatly from whatever we've each thought it up to be over the past 15 years. However I don't see how it could honestly be considered a "bad" game. As far as platformers go it looks pretty enjoyable to me. Honestly one of the better looking downloadable games IMO. I guess that just brings us back to the title "Sonic the Hedgehog 4" though. It carries so much weight for so many people. That title instintly got almost everyone interested, yet it brought with it some mighty expectations. Truly a double edged sword.

I honestly don't even know how much I care that Sonic 4 doesn't feel exactly like the classics when it comes to controls. I mean NSMBW really didn't feel exactly like classic Mario in controls and it didn't bother me at all. I think I really just need to try Sonic 4 for myself before calling it out for the way it handles. Close enough really is good enough for me.

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