Sonic 4 said to have "few to no physics changes"

[Nepenthe]

@ Phos: I understand that previews tend to be rosy for every single game in existence, but I'm not arguing that they are an indicator of quality anyways. Subjectivity versus objectivity, apples and oranges, yada yada. I'm arguing that there's this feeling I get that some detractors want us to extrapolate Sonic 4's flaws and idiosyncratic elements to the level that they already have which has resulted in the general dismissal of its positive previews, the championing of its few negative ones, the whole "Optimists don't have standards" statement I hear reiterated everywhere, etc. etc..

There's rarely a Sonic 4 topic I read on the whole of the internet that doesn't make me think that I'm already supposed to vehemently dislike this title even though I've never gotten my hands on it and have apparently only seen videos that aren't indicative of the final version. People have simply already made up their minds. Fair enough considering what this game has promised and how it's coming along. And besides, plenty of the more pessimistic people have played the previews themselves and thus have experience with it, so what do I really know, eh?

But Jesus Christ, this feeling I'm talking about has become a great part of the reason why I can hardly care about the game now; Not that I significantly did before. Sonic 4 was a pipe dream I never railed for and was unconsciously something I hoped would've never happened because I knew this would've been the result, so the online environment's only served to reinforce my apathy. The atmosphere surrounding this game just sucks, and I'm still at an impasse as to whether it's completely warranted or not.

[Slingerland]

2. Episode 1's physics actually DO have polish, unlike the GBA's Sonic Genesis.

If you're saying that Sonic 4's physics are great in comparison to Sonic Genesis, you've really got low standards.

Astronomically low standards.

[JaidynReiman]

To be honest, at this rate Sega may as well just shut down the whole project. With all this pessimism, nobody's going to buy the game, anyway, whether it winds up good or not. Nobody is even giving this game a ****ing chance. Sega, just stop trying to cater to people who don't want you catering and make a good 3D gave. Give up on trying to please people who can never damn well be pleased.

As far as this game goes, yeah, I know they're still going to release it. I'm gonna buy it. And I'm going to enjoy it. End of story.

Bull****ing shit like this makes me despise being a Sonic fan. And I thought people always ranted how Shadow fanboys were batshit crazy. Look at the "legitimate" Sonic fans! Puh-lease.

Dreadknux, you might as well give up trying to convince anybody that this game is actually pretty good because no one's going to listen to you, anyway.

[Sean]

So I'm wondering what you guys think about people who aren't liking this game in general. Since you know, people are allowed to not like this game.

[Djawed]

So I'm wondering what you guys think about people who aren't liking this game in general.

It's a natural reaction if you ask me

[Dark Qiviut]

If you're saying that Sonic 4's physics are great in comparison to Sonic Genesis, you've really got low standards.

Astronomically low standards.

...I don't see how my standards are that way. I'm just saying that, compared to Sonic Genesis, Episode 1 at least isn't broken. That doesn't mean I'm saying E1's physics are great. The physics were actually my biggest concern with the E3/PartnerNet leaked build, and I was hoping to see them improved.

Still, nothing to cry over. The news disappointed me, yes, but I'll get over it.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Dark Qiviut

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Hey guise, note how everything transpired exactly as I said it would?

It uses the Rush engine, it's reviled by the clacissists to whom it's aimed, and they aren't going to change the physics despite the leaks.

But much like Slartibartfast, it brings me scant joy. I have to wonder what exactly they HAVE been changing beyond LLZ2 if the fundamental problem of physics is just getting ignored. :/

Edited September 10, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Nepenthe]

So I'm wondering what you guys think about people who aren't liking this game in general. Since you know, people are allowed to not like this game.

Assuming you're directing this at me, the implication that "you can't like the game" is really tired as well as completely irrelevant. Anyone can maintain the right to dislike the game, but in the process I also maintain the right to say that some of those detractors have gone overboard in expressing their displeasure and have subsequently helped create a really unsavory environment surrounding the game.

[Rusty Spy]

Hey guise, note how everything transpired exactly as I said it would?

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnot really. Most people who have played it say the game is still very enjoyable and the physics aren't as bad as people make them out to be. Plus it still looks leagues different than Rush.

[nuckles87]

http://a.board.sonicstadium.org/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

There seems to be a lot of negativity going around again. I can't say it's wrong to feel that way since this vision of Sonic 4 differs greatly from whatever we've each thought it up to be over the past 15 years. However I don't see how it could honestly be considered a "bad" game. As far as platformers go it looks pretty enjoyable to me. Honestly one of the better looking downloadable games IMO. I guess that just brings us back to the title "Sonic the Hedgehog 4" though. It carries so much weight for so many people. That title instintly got almost everyone interested, yet it brought with it some mighty expectations. Truly a double edged sword.

I honestly don't even know how much I care that Sonic 4 doesn't feel exactly like the classics when it comes to controls. I mean NSMBW really didn't feel exactly like classic Mario in controls and it didn't bother me at all. I think I really just need to try Sonic 4 for myself before calling it out for the way it handles. Close enough really is good enough for me.

It IS enjoyable, honestly. I loved my runs through Splash Hill more then any 2D Sonic game I've played in a long while. It's a lot of fun. It's going to get great scores, and it's going to be a good game.

I remember, years ago, when I was all hating on Sonic and SEGA after Sonic 06, talking about how SEGA needed to go back to the design sensibilities of the old games, I referenced several things that where missing from today's Sonic.

1. Exploration

2. Multiple paths

3. Choices

Not once did physics actually come into the equation, because as neat as they are, they weren't really why I enjoyed Sonic. I honestly found them to be rather buggy and annoying at points, ESPECIALLY in Sonic 3 where I would get stuck on certain slopes and even in loops. I've even fallen through the floor several times in Casinopolis.

Nah, physics weren't really what I enjoyed about the old Sonics. What I did enjoy, was exploring. Combing levels for rings, extra lives, and power ups. Trying to find another golden ring to get that fourth damn chaos emerald, or trying to find a way to get up to that higher path I screwed up getting to the first time around. Finding and conquering that hidden set of platforms without falling off, or jumping off that falling platform in time to get to that new power up or area. Or just finding that hidden spring. Low and behold, while playing Sonic 4, I actually found this. Platforms I missed or failed to jump off of in time, hidden areas behind breakable walls, the ability to back track with ease to find these areas. A string of enemies in the air I missed the first time around leading up to God knows where. I only wish I had the time to see all of it.

I enjoyed reaching other paths largely because they where something that eluded me for years when I was a kid. When I FINALLY reached these hidden areas, it was like experiencing entirely new parts of the game. In my quest for rings and lives I would often comb through these areas before heading down to the lower level and combing that area as well or, if I missed it, I would try to find a way to get up to that area. Low and behold, Sonic 4's levels are SPRAWLING.

Finally, we have choices and momentum. When I talked about choices, I was mostly referring to not having to play any game play mode I didn't want to to see 99% of the games. Sure I'd miss the good ending, super Sonic, and maybe the final boss fight, but that was only a tiny part of what the games had to offer. I didn't have to collect emeralds. I didn't have to explore, collect, or go through every single area. I could, by and and large, play the game how I want to. Sonic 4 doesn't so much as give me freedom - outside of the areas I already covered - but it also doesn't force me to do anything outside of the main attraction either.

So yeah. Sonic 4 brings back some good memories. It's physics aren't like the originals but the more I think about it, the more I wonder just how much they matter when so much else is being done right.

[Spooky Mulder]

Gah, that's it, I'm just going to pretend that the Speed Boosters exist as part of the story. They've said Robotnik just wants to kill Sonic this time around so perhaps the boosters have been planted to push Sonic toward Robitnik. There we go I can move on now.

[Slingerland]

To be honest, at this rate Sega may as well just shut down the whole project. With all this pessimism, nobody's going to buy the game, anyway, whether it winds up good or not. Nobody is even giving this game a ****ing chance. Sega, just stop trying to cater to people who don't want you catering and make a good 3D gave. Give up on trying to please people who can never damn well be pleased.

Those people can be pleased. It's called "doing it correctly." I don't know why you guys get so offended at detractors. All they want to play is Sonic 4: Good Edition.

People are allowed to not like this game. It is a relevant option. Sonic on the cover doesn't make the game automatically great. Quit settling. You could have an amazing game instead of an "okay" game.

[Badnik Zero]

So I wanna know, since the physics were brought up. You guys think Sega's really aware of our complaints, or is it just people like Ruby who sympathize with us? In theory now that they've gone back and delayed this, found the physics unworkable, shouldn't they be able to remedy this in the second installment?

[Phos]

Hey, Dark Quivit: Thanks for being another one of a long line of people to use that irritating "hissy fit" strawman. Allright, I shouldn't be rude, but this sort of thing grates after a while.

Anyone can maintain the right to dislike the game, but in the process I also maintain the right to say that some of those detractors have gone overboard in expressing their displeasure and have subsequently helped create a really unsavory environment surrounding the game.

The origin of this unsavory environment seems to be the detractors of the detractors. I've lost count of the number of times I've been accused of being unpleasable, nostalgia blinded, just hating it because I didn't get my way, and had my sentiments assigned the status of "hissy fit". All the first degree detractors have been doing is has been related to problems with Sonic 4, the second degree detractors are lumping people on this forum into their posts.

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's an argument that purists are using because Sonic Team aren't coding the game they way they want it to, regardless of the fact that it plays exactly as it should - like a 'Sonic 4'.

This assertion is baseless. The player's inputs to play Sonic 4 don't match Sonic 1-3 in the slightest, and the reasons they do them are completely different as well*. The homing attack chains alone lead to repeated pressing of the same button. Sonic has drastically more airborne friction in Sonic 4 (actually due to lazy coding and not friction) which means jumps are handled differently. When a jump in a classic game required a bit of precision, this would often come in the form of short taps in either direction to fine tune Sonic's arc. This is pretty high on the list of things I think of when I think of Sonic. And guess what, it doesn't exist is Sonic 4.

*I'm sure approximately 2584645649 people won't understand this, but there's no jargon for this. I might be the only person in the world who thinks about this sort of thing. I guess I should give some examples. Virtual On moves at such a fast pace and uses few buttons, which has the interesting effect of making it appear to an observer that can see the controller but not the screen that a player is button mashing when they are actually creating and executing tactics at a great speed. I believe I will call this an input profile, different games ask for inputs at different speeds and use different concentrations of different types of inputs (moving, jumping, shooting, dashing, the like). Most vertical shooters see the player tapping a single button repeatedly (there is very seldom any reason to not shoot in shooters like these) while moving to avoid bullets.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Phos

[Badnik Zero]

^ Like if a game were a Guitar Hero song.

[Chooch]

The origin of this unsavory environment seems to be the detractors of the detractors.

And now we've delved into just pointing fingers at each other like fucking children? Excellent.

As if either side has the right to blame the other. As far as I'm concerned, this 'unsavory environment' comes from both sides having arrogant little shits that need to quit taking things so goddamn seriously on them. This 'us against them' bullshit needs to stop. People need to grow the fuck up and get to the point where they can discuss things, have a disagreement, and not start flailing their arms and screaming like a three year old having a temper tantrum when it happens.

I've seen both sides' arguments. A million times. I'm still not terribly swayed on either side, interestingly enough. You wanna know why? Because I haven't touched the game for myself. Not to mention most of the people screaming at each other from either side have, for a fact, not played it either.

It's also hard to really sympathize with either side when I see dumbass comments such as 'If you like this then you have unbelievably low standards' or 'If you don't like this then you have too high of standards'. A fucking load of shit is what that is.

I decide for myself whether Sonic 4 is a bad game or not when I get my hands on it. By then I'll have my own opinions on things that people may or may not disagree with. If people agree with me, cool! If people don't agree with me, cool! People just don't need to be so unbelievably immature about it. That, or have some pompous and condescending attitude that just generally pisses me off.

[Scar]

The way I see it, people are allowed to not like the game, and people are also allowed to like the game.

It seems that each side seems to react to the other.

It ain't going to stop, so arguing about it any further will not help in any way.

People who dislike Sonic 4 'insult' people who do like it, by pointing to some numbers (i.e, the programming) and call them ignorant (this is more Common at Sonic Retro than over here)

People who like Sonic 4 'insult' peple who don't by calling them petty, immature and nitpicky (this is more common here at the SSMB, than it is at Sonic Retro)

For fucks sake, get over it.

Stop complaining about people complaining about you complaining about Sonic 4.

Each any every person is entitled to their opinion, and should just live and let live. If you have valid arguments to support your points, by all means share them, but seriously, stop attacking each other.

I also have to make one final point.

Yes, this was the announcement of the Sonic the Hedgehog 4, but honestly, how could you possibly think that after a decade of mediocrity, SEGA (of all companies) could suddenly see the light and produce a Sonic 3 and Knuckles calibre game. Yeah, I understand, its Sonic 4, and you had high hopes, but realistically....what were the chances. SEGA still have much to learn, and they can't suddenly right all wrongs in a single game. It ain't possible.

I'm sure improvements will occur with time, but certainly not at once.

[Sean]

For the love of god people, can you please keep these stupid arguments to a minimum (read: zero)? I'm about fed up with it. This goes for all of you! Yay!

[SykoTech]

To be honest, at this rate Sega may as well just shut down the whole project. With all this pessimism, nobody's going to buy the game, anyway, whether it winds up good or not.

I certainly wouldn't go that far. Just because the fanbase (a part of the fanbase; certainly not all of it) is upset, doesn't determine how successful the game will be. There's still plenty of others outside the fanbase excited for the game. People that aren't as critical about everything and whatnot. Not to mention I think that a good amount of the pessimistic people could end up buying the game anyway.

Thinking that Sonic 4 should be shut down because of this fanbase drama is like thinking Valve should have shut down Left 4 Dead 2 after all that fuss and petitioning the fans did (L4D2 did expectionally FYI).

Edited September 11, 2010 by SykoTech

[Barry the Nomad]

Personally I hope the game sells like like (digital) hot cakes! That way SEGA can start bringing back other old franchises via direct sequels.

[Indigo Rush]

Personally I hope the game sells like like (digital) hot cakes! That way SEGA can start bringing back other old franchises via direct sequels.

Ristar 2 or bust!

Also, boo to no physics changes. I was looking forward to those.

[Badnik Zero]

Ristar 2 or bust!

In the original it sometimes became frustrating to grab and hold things with Ristar. Personally, the game was not streamlined like this. That is why in Ristar 2 we included the star flight ability. The game is much easier to understand. If you have ever wanted to fly like a star, we are making Ristar 2 for you. I know old fans will enjoy it very much.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Dabnikz

[Barry the Nomad]

Wait, so now I'm confused. I had thought Ruby said that there ARE physics changes, just not to the extreme back to square one that a select group of fans are hoping for.

This quote from ruby:

My suggestion would be to expect few to no physics changes, so that if or when you do notice any minor updates in the final game, you'll appreciate them.

Sounds less like him saying "there are NO physics changes" and more like him saying "there ARE changes, however don't play the game with the expectation for a complete overhaul. Changes have been made for the better, and the game is completely playable and fun in it's own right, however we did NOT reboot to emulate every inch of the classics in terms of an engine"

So when I read what ruby said above and then I read comments like

Also, boo to no physics changes. I was looking forward to those.

I get confused. Are we taking his quote out of context or did he explicitly say "there are no physics changes"? Edited September 11, 2010 by Doctor Eggman

[Blue Blood]

Wait, so now I'm confused. I had thought Ruby said that there ARE physics changes, just not to the extreme back to square one that a select group of fans are hoping for.

This quote from ruby:

*QUOTE WAS HERE*

Sounds less like him saying "there are NO physics changes" and more like him saying "there ARE changes, however don't play the game with the expectation for a complete overhaul. Changes have been made for the better, and the game is completely playable and fun in it's own right, however we did NOT reboot to emulate every inch of the classics in terms of an engine"

So when I read what ruby said above and then I read comments like I get confused. Are we taking his quote out of context or did he explicitly say "there are no physics changes"?

Physics in general are not going to see too many massive changes

Physics need massive changes to make Sonic behave properly on slopes, both when walking/running and rolling. The way that he stops moving in mid air is the part that effects level design the most. Seriously, if Walk-on-Walls the Hedgehog is still what the game ends up as, I'll be hugely disappointed because that's not a problem that should ever exist whether they're trying to emulate the classics or not.

Minor changes may include acceleration and letting Sonic bounce off of enemies back the the height he fell from. Somehow I doubt that last one will happen...

Edited September 11, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Barry the Nomad]

Oh! Okay, but there ARE changes being made as opposed to no changes as some are stating.