Sonic 4 said to have "few to no physics changes"

[speedfreak]

I think it's more offending that the working title of the project was Needlemouse then having the final title be Sonic the Hedgehog 4. Direct sequels can have changes (compare Resident Evil 1-3 to Resident Evil 4) that alter some things and make them feel pretty different. However having the working title of Project Needlemouse made it seem as if they were going to copy what people loved about classic Sonic verbatim. Sonic 4 is modern Sonic, it's not 16 bit, the physics are questionable, homing attack, speed boosters, it's rehashy, etc. While I personally don't mind much of that it really doesn't seem they went back to the early Sonic days where it actually counts.

Though again I just want to reinstate that I personally think it looks pretty great even though it's not quite the classic throwback they would have you believe it to be.

[Blue Blood]

They're mostly going to be negligible changes I bet. They shouldn't have needed changes in the first place though.

[SAF2010]

They're mostly going to be negligible changes I bet. They shouldn't have needed changes in the first place though.

So they aren't going to fix that stage with the mine cart? That's going to be a bitch to play.

[Badnik Zero]

^ No dude. The minecart stage was moved to the iPhone version for tilt controls. Consoles will have a new act 2.

[MattTY]

It is disingenuous to suggest that we know what Sega will and will not consider a "massive change" to physics. Is, for example, slope behaviour a "massive change", or does it merely require the inclusion or editing of an angle to the horizontal in Sonic's gravity/ground collision calculations?

What we know is not to expect physics changes that would require the redesigning of levels. This is known. The rest... is speculation.

Edited September 12, 2010 by MattTY

[speedfreak]

I wish Dreadknux was here to give us the skinny on the important issues of the new build, it's past friday now.

[Saint Nathan]

Okay, so here's this.

The physics issues really shouldn't ever have existed. They're not very classic in terms of gameplay, and they did kinda fuck up that one a little.

But the fact that they were expected to be changed heavily is our problem. We expected it, and we set ourselves up to expect it and be disappointed. It actually seems kind of obvious now that in order to heavily change the physics of the game, they'd have to change the WHOLE GAME and that would just be a waste of time and money.

Instead of being mad about this (I was at first but it's kind of silly all the same) not being changed, how about we look at something else?

They're taking the time to tell up this.

Sega decided it was a good idea to be straight up with us. At the same time, they show that, yes, they understand that they blew a little in that area. They're changing what they can, but they can't change everything. They listened to the point of making a whole new damn act because we didn't like the first one we saw.

That's pretty damn nice of them to do no matter what they can't do. Am I a tad bit dissapointed? Yeah. Can I find a logical reason to be disappointed? Yeah.

Does it make sense for me to have expected any major physics changes? Not really.

[Blue Blood]

So they aren't going to fix that stage with the mine cart? That's going to be a bitch to play.

I'm talking about physics changes. That stage itself was heavily hindered by bad physics, though that's not to say it was horribly designed in the first place. But yeah, it's been removed from the console versions.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Blue Blood

[JaidynReiman]

I certainly wouldn't go that far. Just because the fanbase (a part of the fanbase; certainly not all of it) is upset, doesn't determine how successful the game will be. There's still plenty of others outside the fanbase excited for the game. People that aren't as critical about everything and whatnot. Not to mention I think that a good amount of the pessimistic people could end up buying the game anyway.

Thinking that Sonic 4 should be shut down because of this fanbase drama is like thinking Valve should have shut down Left 4 Dead 2 after all that fuss and petitioning the fans did (L4D2 did expectionally FYI).

I'm just pissed off at how tons and tons of people won't even give this game a ****ing chance. That's all I'm saying. I HATE all this negativity. It makes me hate this fanbase in general.

Whether the game turns out good or bad, it just seems to me like a plethora of people have given up on it well before release. No chance whatsoever that it could turn out, y'know, GOOD. Catch my drift?

In any case, back to lurking. I prefer it that way. Whenever I bring up my opinion people just yell at me, anyway. Or ignore me. So I might as well not talk. I'll watch for a release date and download it on my Wii when its out.

[speedfreak]

Well honestly after everything the fanbase has gone through it has every right to be pessimistic. Sonic Colors seems to be making the right calls but there are some very questionable choices present in Sonic 4.

I could understand being annoyed by the negativity if Sonic's track record was better but he's had such a checkered past. (Pun sort of intended)

Edited September 12, 2010 by speedfreak

[Blue Blood]

I'm just pissed off at how tons and tons of people won't even give this game a ****ing chance. That's all I'm saying. I HATE all this negativity. It makes me hate this fanbase in general.

Whether the game turns out good or bad, it just seems to me like a plethora of people have given up on it well before release. No chance whatsoever that it could turn out, y'know, GOOD. Catch my drift?

In any case, back to lurking. I prefer it that way. Whenever I bring up my opinion people just yell at me, anyway. Or ignore me. So I might as well not talk. I'll watch for a release date and download it on my Wii when its out.

I've given the game many chances. Rehashed zones, bosses and enemies? It's fine- they're like that on purpose. Minecart and pinball table levels? They don't look very good, but it's just 2 acts. No biggie. Homing attack? I don't want it in the game, but it looks alright. So long as I can still bounce along sometimes then it's perfectly a-okay (fun-fact, you can't). It's designed differently from the classics? Kudos to them for having the balls not to make a carbon copy of S3K.

The awful, AWFUL physics? Yeah, not letting that one slide. Then they delayed the game, and I became hopeful that physics would see some drastic improvements. I don't expect perfection, but I expected them to reach the level of decent. Never should a game designed with hills, wall running, loops and other funky landscape features have such a disregard for the physics. See that picture in my sig? It's not a glitch or hard to pull off, you just stop running on a slope. Sonic doesn't behave like a ball when rolling and when jumping he's like a puppet. It's lazy design because so long as it looks classic on the outside it must be classic everywhere.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Dreadknux]

Hilariously, Sonic 4 is the only game of its type (retro-style titles like MM9 and whatnot) to actually consist of nothing but recycled material. All the other retro-styled titles I know of actually have original content in a retro-styled package.

Not strictly true. Yeah, Sonic 4 has Zones that are directly inspired by Zones from the Mega Drive original, but level design - you know, the important bit - is hardly recycled material (inb4 "but it's shit" storm).

Seriously, when even Capcom doesn't get this lazy, you know it's a blatant cash-in.

So a totally new modified engine (crappy or no), brand new graphics, and at least an attempted understanding of the classic games = laziness in comparison to Capcom for churning out exactly the same old shit for some reason? If anything, it's Sonic Team trying too hard and outright sucking (if you believe the game to be crap of course - in which case I'll have to assume you've played it at length).

I honestly, really and truly, don't see how Capcom is seen as doing something for the fans with MM9 and MM10, but if it's Sega doing it with Sonic 4 it's all of a sudden a big fat cash in. Newsflash: EVERY company does this to cash in on the fans. You might as well abandon all hope and fantasy and console yourself with the fact that businesses do this shit to make money. You know, Sonic the Hedgehog isn't some inspirational character that goes around and saves the world from evil robots. It's an intellectual property, designed to tap as much money out of that wallet of yours as they possibly can. Why bother thinking otherwise, after all, right?

I wish Dreadknux was here to give us the skinny on the important issues of the new build, it's past friday now.

You guys seem so happy having a bitchfight like a bunch of three-year-olds, that anything I say isn't going to make a blind bit of difference.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Dreadknux
S4 doesn't use a 'totally new engine' after all, but a modified Rush one apparently. My mistake.

[Blue Blood]

So a totally new engine (crappy or no), brand new graphics, and at least an attempted understanding of the classic games = laziness in comparison to Capcom for churning out exactly the same old shit for some reason? If anything, it's Sonic Team trying too hard and outright sucking (if you believe the game to be crap of course - in which case I'll have to assume you've played it at length).

The engine isn't totally new. It's the same one used for Rush. It wasn't designed for anything like S4 which is why the problems are such a big deal here and not there.

[speedduelist]

blueblood, i fail to see how this affects the game play so much. in the classics, you weren't even allowed to stand on a slope, Running through it always soulved the problem

the only difference, in the classics you couldn't just Stop on the Slope and stand on it. Big deal.

[Dreadknux]

The engine isn't totally new. It's the same one used for Rush. It wasn't designed for anything like S4 which is why the problems are such a big deal here and not there.

Fair point on the problems. I'm not disputing that there are issues in the engine. I fail to see what's wrong in using the Rush engine as a base though, besides the kinks that clearly need ironing out. It's a solid one.

For the record, as I said, it looked like they had removed the 'ability' for Sonic to stand on a wall when I played the revised build on Wednesday. But as much as this game may or may not use Rush's engine, playing the game doesn't feel anything like Sonic Rush (maybe in the jumping, that's about it). The shitty inertia's set to Mega Drive-era levels, the level design itself is pretty good and the homing attack's not actually that bad.

But I know, it's not the Mega Drive original engine. I guess we all have to just chill out and accept that there are two camps of people here - one that's concerned primarily on the engine, and another that's concerned primarily with the overall gameplay and fun of the title.

[Blue Blood]

blueblood, i fail to see how this affects the game play so much. in the classics, you weren't even allowed to stand on a slope, Running through it always soulved the problem

the only difference, in the classics you couldn't just Stop on the Slope and stand on it. Big deal.

It's lazy. Sonic can stand on slopes like this because he doesn't react properly to them. He should be falling off of something that steep not just stand there almost parallel to the ground. It also means that Sonic doesn't react properly to slopes. Rather than go faster or slower depending on the gradient, he runs at predetermined speeds any such speed is negated with air movement. Speed boosters are being used to disguise poor physics. They do 'keep the games pacing' as Iizuka said, but only because the physics don't let Sonix behave in such a way that his pace can be kept without extra intervention. The physics aren't game breaking in the way that 06's were, but they do show a considerable lack of care on the developers side. It's saddening that this potentially great title that is doing so many things really well is failing on one huge fundamental level. I would have expected a game called Sonic 4 to be something made with passion and with a desire to be great, not just good. I still maintain that S4 looks fun, but that's not all that matters with this title. It has something more to live up to as well.

EDIT @ Dread: I look forward to reading your full opinions on the game when it's out. You're looking at the game with level head, unlike some*. The level design looks really good all over. And yeah, my only real gripe with the HA is using it one bosses (though in those situations I really can decide not to use it).

*me.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Detective Shadzter]

Couldn't think of anywhere else to put this and as this seems to be the current RubyEclipse thread, here goes.

We MAY be getting a small update today:

Some of these are tied to some really specific updates, so they have to go out hand-in-hand. On that end I'm stuck until the website updates get approved (it's not actually only a SEGA thing), and then as soon as they can go live, I can add up the second blog in all its glory.

Until then, I think a little 1.5 blog should be doable though, and I'll see if I can get that up today.

http://forums.sega.com/showpost.php?p=6203591&postcount=79

[Blue Blood]

Wootage. Looking forward to 1.5 then.

Still, looking forward even more to Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Episode 1 Blog update 2

Edited September 15, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Detective Shadzter]

Some insight on speed boosters and feedback from RubyEclipse:

Overall, I'm pleased with the final result, and also have high hopes for the future. I'm a perfectionist sometimes (like many of us), so while there are some things I'd like to see added as optional, I was glad to see the many other positive changes that were made for the game.

On the flip side, I've had the unique perspective of seeing this game from concept to final product. Being able to take some of the feedback from you guys, to combine it with internal feedback, and then to make that reality was also a really big win for the campaign. Even if some fans won't ever be happy, at least we'll keep trying.

The speed boosters don't actually phase me much, because by the end of the game they're a little more sparse. Splash Hill probably has the most out of all the zones, but there's still a lot of skill and fast timing based platforming required if you want to beat the game, or just get a good time. Older fans will still be able to challenge themselves by seeing how fast they can complete an Act - which very often requires staying on the high path without the speed boosters, or using classic style attacks instead of the homing attack.

That's my personal opinion, anyway. I'm hopeful that when people actually play the game - no matter how old they are or what games they grew up playing - that they'll have a fun time with it.

http://forums.sega.com/showpost.php?p=6203626&postcount=86

[Octarine]

Wootage. Looking forward to 1.5 then.

Still, looking forward even more to Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Episode 1 Blog update 2

With Banjo-Kazooie?

The big thing in Blog Update 2 will presumably be Casino Street Act 2, so I'm holding out hope that we'll get to see the world map today. And maybe the new title screen? Eeeee~!

[Blue Blood]

With Banjo-Kazooie?

Sth4E1BU2wBK. I approve

The big thing in Blog Update 2 will presumably be Casino Street Act 2, so I'm holding out hope that we'll get to see the world map today. And maybe the new title screen? Eeeee~!

Ooh, I'd forgotten about the new title screen. Wonderful. Yeah, I hope we see that. And in motion cause that's the imporant part.

Ruby's comment sadly implies that the boosters are still too high in number. Oh well... =(

Edited September 15, 2010 by Blue Blood

[speedfreak]

At least it's boosters and not the boost move.

[Shade Vortex]

At least it's boosters and not the boost move.

I think MANY people would have actually preferred a boost move over many speed boosters, because a boost is entirely optional in most cases, but if you're on the ground, it's hard to avoid speed boosters. Jumping over them would be deliberately slowing down the game just so that you wouldn't have to use them.

[MrROBOTO1988]

I think MANY people would have actually preferred a boost move over many speed boosters, because a boost is entirely optional in most cases, but if you're on the ground, it's hard to avoid speed boosters. Jumping over them would be deliberately slowing down the game just so that you wouldn't have to use them.

I'd rather have boosters than a boost move. I really don't mind having boosters, obviously as long as there's still platforming sections that require skill, and it sounded like Ruby was saying the high route doesn't have boosters. A boost move leads to "hold one button down the entire level and gooooo," which doesn't inherently make things bad, but I think it decreases replay value.

[Blue Blood]

I think MANY people would have actually preferred a boost move over many speed boosters, because a boost is entirely optional in most cases, but if you're on the ground, it's hard to avoid speed boosters. Jumping over them would be deliberately slowing down the game just so that you wouldn't have to use them.

I can't imagine anyone wanting that. With a boost the levels would have to be build for it and we really would have Rush 3 which is not what is wanted from S4.