So now that you have played sonic colo(u)rs

[Kuzu]

I disagree. to each to his own i guess.

I mean don't get me wrong Colors is a really good game, with some platforming the series has needed for a long time. But keep in mind, the Wisp are a one time gimmick, meaning there won't be a Lazer, Drill, or Rocket power up in the(Alleged) 20th Anniversary game. So I ask you without the Wisp what does Colors have that makes it more ground breaking than Adventure.

I mean Unleashed without the Werehog, still has its awesome speed.

[mark]

Sonic Adventure 2 had lots of platforming, as well as being a fair bit faster than the original.

Levels like Metal Harbour and Green Forest - all a good mix of simple platforming techniques; simple, but fun.

And Crazy Gadget was basically all platforming while you fucked around with the gravity... and Pyramid Cave.. etc

When you think about it, although Final Rush was basically Grind Rails, it required precision platforming to get from one rail to another. And it took a long time for me to master the best possible routes.

So lets be honest, they all contained platforming and speed together. To me, the Adventure games (Sonic levels/shadow levels) pan out far more like the original games in terms of balance between platforming/speed. Controls also hold up for play in a fully 3D environment. They just play better in my honest opinion..

..

Sadly i think 06 ruined the thought of the formula ever coming back. Rest in piece Sonic Adventure games (minus all the other characters except Sonic and Shadow, you all played like shit)

ps. I Enjoyed colours and LOVE Unleashed HD (SONIC LEVELS)

Edited November 25, 2010 by mark

[Kuzu]

Sonic Adventure 2 had lots of platforming, as well as being a fair bit faster than the original.

Levels like Metal Harbour and Green Forest - all a good mix of simple platforming techniques; simple, but fun.

And Crazy Gadget was basically all platforming while you fucked around with the gravity... and Pyramid Cave.. etc

When you think about it, although Final Rush was basically Grind Rails, it required precision platforming to get from one rail to another. And it took a long time for me to master the best possible routes.

So lets be honest, they all contained platforming and speed together. To me, the Adventure games (Sonic levels/shadow levels) pan out far more like the original games in terms of balance between platforming/speed. Controls also hold up for play in a fully 3D environment. They just play better in my honest opinion..

..

Sadly i think 06 ruined the thought of the formula ever coming back. Rest in piece Sonic Adventure games (minus all the other characters except Sonic and Shadow, you all played like shit)

[Scar]

Best way forward, as I have been saying is to take the best of everything done so far and combine it, then refine it.

By that I mean the best part of every game. Stupid gimmicks aren't the best part, so they don't count.

For example:

Sonic 06 - some of the better level design

Sonic Unleashed - Art style/graphical fidelity. Daytime stages "Exhilaration factor"

Sonic Colours - Art style/framerate (graphics for future Wii titles), branched paths, Water stages, Super Sonic, Replay Value, Robotnik final boss. Chaos Emeralds being side-quests etc.

Sonic and the Black Knight - Fanservice (Fanart, character Bios, Official Artwork, Development art, Concept art etc).

Sonic and the Secret Rings - Night Palace (and its music, it was one of the better designed stages)

Sonic Adventure 2 Battle - Race mode, Chao system

Sonic Adventure 1 - Soundtrack influences (yes some parts do sound outdated and need a touch-up), Elements of the 3D control scheme but with updates

Sonic Heroes - Bright wacky stages

Shadow the Hedgehog - Branching non-linearity (Going to a different level depending on which goal you reach is a great idea, just needs to be executed properly)

Canon Mega Drive games in general - level design influences (converting the awesome 2D layouts effectively into 3D), the SPIN DASH, well executed alternate characters and PHYSICS.

You get the idea.

Just compile all the best bits and put them together. Use beta testers to find out what isn't necessary and trim the excess fat whilst improving and fine-tuning problems.

It would probably be a huge game, maybe too big for a single disk even, but I'm pretty sure that's the best way to go.

Every time there is a big game coming up (ideally every <multiple of 5> anniversary) they should just use this formula and keep improving it and keep pushing it further, plus using all of the available 5 years to construct the flagship titles between each anniversary special (Spin-off etc are wellcome, but the main series should have a 3-5 year development period).

That's just what I personally think would be the best way to make the ideal 3D Sonic game

However, I do feel we're getting slightly off-topic

Edited November 25, 2010 by Scar

[Spooky Mulder]

@SpeedDuelist What I was trying to say in my post was that Colors has platforming which is great and has been sorely missed since the classics...but Colors has platforming overkill. It's too slow at times and when it's fast it's really not that fast. You could definitely mix the explorative 3D sections of Adventure/06, with the speedy 3D sections of Unleashed HD, and the branching pathways and 2D platforming sections of Colors to produce a fantastic game. Combine these things and you could have an absolutely wonderful game (of course building a game like this would probably require a ton of disk space and would need to be PS3/XBOX360 exclusive.)

[JezMM]

I know you guys were ranting at speedduelist about videos like 2 pages ago but I missed it and no-one else said: Speedduelist, one of the main reason those vids were annoying is because you were using them as proof that Unleashed is always going forward and has no exploration - when believe it or not, in the actual game you can stop and explore quite a few areas. But you aren't going to find videos of people doing that because they want to show off how awesomely they can beat the level, thus they'll mostly be going in a straight line as fast as possible, taking the routes with less fiddley platforming. Just so you know.

@Scar: That sounds like a beautiful game.

You know what'd be kind of cool, since you mentioned branching paths? Imagine if they made a game engine versatile enough to allow for 2D platforming, 3D platforming, speedy gameplay and explorative gameplay... And the stages had multiple exits that rewarded taking each kind of route through the stage - which in turn lead to more of that kind of level. Especially if they (continued to) ditch the "Get 100% completion to see true ending" thing like they did in Unleashed and Colours, so everyone can enjoy the same exciting finale regardless of what route they take, with the levels that might not fully be their cup of tea being totally optional.

I dunno. Food for thought.

[speedduelist]

@SpeedDuelist What I was trying to say in my post was that Colors has platforming which is great and has been sorely missed since the classics...but Colors has platforming overkill. It's too slow at times and when it's fast it's really not that fast. You could definitely mix the explorative 3D sections of Adventure/06, with the speedy 3D sections of Unleashed HD, and the branching pathways and 2D platforming sections of Colors to produce a fantastic game. Combine these things and you could have an absolutely wonderful game (of course building a game like this would probably require a ton of disk space and would need to be PS3/XBOX360 exclusive.)

Edited November 26, 2010 by speedduelist

[DistantJ]

Speedduelist is cracking me up big time now. It's like he can't read the responses he gets.

It's the way that the 2D gameplay is like that of a VERY basic and outdated platformer without the Wisps. And some of the Wisps can become tiresome...

Damn, dude... It took me paragraph after paragraph to say what you did in a sentence... Good job!

I wish Sonic Colors was more like my women, curvy. When I think of Sonic platforming I imagine it as a pachinko/pinball table turned horizontally. The physics engine, while not perfect, is capable of using slopes, slants, and quarter-pipe ramps to mostly recreate the feel of the classic games as seen in the SS versions of the Sonic 1 stages. It would have gone a long way to spice up the lame, blocky platforming.

Agreed. Both on Sonic games and on women

About the spin-dash/boost... I find it ironic that people hated on Sonic 4 for having imperfect spin-dash physics, and love Sonic Colours even though it doesn't even feature the move.

[speedduelist]

Speedduelist is cracking me up big time now. It's like he can't read the responses he gets.

Post an example.

[Kuzu]

Damn, dude... It took me paragraph after paragraph to say what you did in a sentence... Good job!

This I still don't understand. I'll admit Colors is boring without the Wisp, but there are 7 different Wisp and you use at least 2-3 per level, so I can't see how it would get boring, the only Wisp I'd say was boring was the Rocket considering how Underused it is.

[Djawed]

To be honest the game IS built with the wisps in mind so obviously it's gonna feel empty without them. Just look at the big water sections. I know I would hate them without the wisps.

But other than that. I still think some stages are enjoyable without the wisps.

[Carbo]

Plus, the wii could handle 8 GB of disk space, so i can't find this an issue since unleashed HD was in a 6 GB XBOX360 Disk, and the wii isn't even a graphic power house, so the amount of coding can't require even 6 GB of disk space.

Discs have alot of excess padding, and the 360 and PS3 is not exempt from that. Even Brawl which was on a Dual-Layer has the amount of data that could be barely squeezed into a normal DVD. You cant fit in Unleashed HD on the Wii, its above seven gigs and uses way too much processing power required for it to run.

[ChikaBoing]

In the next games, they could make it so that each time you play through a level you get a differnt camera angle randomly during segements where you don't have much control(grinding, whale chasing etc.)instead of getting always the same view during the automatic set-pieces. Or even change the rotation when on a 2d plane, not depending on the act , but randomly. That would make replaying stages a bit more interesting.

[Spooky Mulder]

If they wanted sonic to Run fast at most of the times, they would have just used unleashed wii Engine,

unleashed wii is faster than colors. they would have also added the Blue shining effect on sonic like unleashed HD.

Plus, the wii could handle 8 GB of disk space, so i can't find this an issue since unleashed HD was in a 6 GB XBOX360 Disk, and the wii isn't even a graphic power house, so the amount of coding can't require even 6 GB of disk space.

Again, you've completely missed my point. I never said hat Sonic should just run fast all of the time. I said that Sonic should have sections where he runs really fast mixed with the slower platforming sections of Colors and the explorative sections of Adventure/06. Take full advantage of the extra disk space on the PS3/360 to make a game far bigger with more expansive levels than Unleashed HD. Sonic Team needs to make the best possible game they can for the hardware which probably means building the game twice. HD version and Wii version.

[DistantJ]

You know what? I think that Sonic SHOULD run fast all the time. Is there a problem with this?

[Carbo]

Of course not. Alot of people will disagree with you though.

[JezMM]

I would say "Sonic should run fast most of the time" myself. Save the really intricate stuff for the bonus levels and the less intricate stuff for mandatory ones (case in point, Planet Wisp Act 6. I'd say the first half is good mandatory level content, but the final climb is better suited for a secret level).

In the next games, they could make it so that each time you play through a level you get a differnt camera angle randomly during segements where you don't have much control(grinding, whale chasing etc.)instead of getting always the same view during the automatic set-pieces. Or even change the rotation when on a 2d plane, not depending on the act , but randomly. That would make replaying stages a bit more interesting.

I wouldn't mind a slightly different angle for 2D sections (like the difference between Mazuri Day Act 3 and Mazuri Day Act 3-2 in Unleashed), but reversing it would be confusing in a frustrating way, much like mirror modes on racing games can be (though in those games it's an actual mode and thereby your own choice to add the extra cheap challenge of fighting against your memory of the track).

However, different angles for the 3D auto-eye-candy sections sounds cool.

You know what MY personal wish for a Sonic game is, eye-candy-wise?

During an automated "cool" bit, the screen gets cut into portions, almost comic book style, with each section showing a different angle. So on a loop, the main bulk of the screen would show Sonic running round it with the camera still behind (and going upside down with) him as usual, whereas another frame would have the side-on loop view showing the whole thing, and perhaps a third frame would be fixed at the bottom of the loop, awaiting Sonic to suddenly speed by as he exits, and the panels flick quickly out of view again leaving you back with the default camera angle.

[Djawed]

Wait, so when did you 2 start liking sonic games? Since sonic rush?

Seriously though. I disagree with both of you. Not a whole game of running and also not a game of mostly running. I'd rather have platforming more than running or the 2 combined like in the classics. Running sections should be handled exactly like sonic colors imo.

I tried sonic adventure 2 today and aside from the view first stages, the game is pretty slow paced in the later... quarter I think. At least stages like crazy gadget or Shadow's version of final rush... whatever it was called.

You two must hate sonic 1 lol.

[JezMM]

My first and still favourite 2D Sonic game was Sonic 2 on the Master System, my first and still favourite 3D Sonic game was Sonic Adventure 2: Battle.

I would rank Sonic Unleashed as my third favourite Sonic game overall (though bare in mind the above two get bonus points for nostalgia these days so I find it hard to truly judge - I'd rather consider all three "joint first".

Funnily enough, in terms of the Mega Drive games, Sonic 2, widely considered the fastest, is my least favourite. I actually play Sonic 1 on Mega Drive pretty often actually, but goddamn Marble Zone and those up-and-downy lift sections in Spring Yard Zone seem to go on FOREVER.

All I can deduce from my top three and first impressions of the series is:

I'd rather have a handful of tightly designed and memorable routes (my top 3) than a ton of alternate routes that all crisscross over each other and aren't really all that memorable in their own right (the mega drive games).

If there's gonna be gimmicks to extend the gameplay, I'd rather they be seperate gimmicks than ones that "interrupt" the core gameplay. I was fine with Adventure, Adventure 2's, 2006's and Unleashed's seperate character gameplay, but found it kind of annoying in Heroes and Colours where you're constantly switching between playstyles (also don't care much for the extra characters mid-level in 2006). As for Shadow, I liked that. It may have had a gimmick present at all times, but honestly the gunplay didn't interrupt the speed. In fact since they still insisted on giving enemies health bars like in Heroes, it kept the speed going in it's own way.

And finally, Sonic better have style yo'. Adventure 2 and Unleashed are full of cinematic moments. I guess even Sonic 2 Master System could count towards this, with it boasting it's various vehicle sections (and frankly it has some of the more original artistic designs in the series too, starting with a lava stage, having one level set in a storm, a very non-standard looking water stage, the tropical stage being halfway through of all places, yet another non-standard design for the mechanical stage, a stage set within an asteroid belt, and then the truly surreal crystal-themed finale - all pretty fancy stuff - in fact Colours is the first game in a long time to really branch out with it's level genres like Sonic 2 Master System did).

But goddamnit will people please stop assuming anyone who loves Unleashed with a passion loves Rush just as much. Unleashed HD is not Rush 3D. The levels are far more memorable and intricate than anything Rush ever spewed out. If anything, Unleashed Wii/PS2 is Rush 3D. Non-offensive, fun enough, but bland and uninspired level design just like Rush. But not Unleashed HD.

The same goes for "man if you love Unleashed you must hate the classics". I love the classics. But I love Unleashed more.

Edited November 27, 2010 by JezMM

[Gabz Girl]

Yeah, I wish Sonic games were like back in the good ol' days. SA1, SA2, even alot of Sonic Heroes was platforming and running along.

That's the kind of gameplay I want. Speedy, but with some extra platforming in between.

Granted, Sonic Unleashed has its share of running and platforming, but the speed boost is an annoying gimmick IMO. It's only used to get through a stage as fast as possible (and to get across water in some places like the Holaska stage), and to show off how LOLOMGLOOKAMAHSCOREIMFAST you are. >_> I mean, imagine if you're speed boosting, and SUDDENLY you have to jump over a random platform suspended in mid air. Oops, you don't have time to react so off you go into the bottomless pit without any giving warning!

I hope the Sonic Anniversary game stays similiar to Sonic Colours, where I never had those problems with the speed boosts. And at least they did give you warnings, which were handy.

[Djawed]

"But goddamnit will people please stop assuming anyone who loves Unleashed with a passion loves Rush just as much. "

My post wasn't a reaction to how much you like unleashed.

But a reaction to this.

"I would say "Sonic should run fast most of the time" myself."

I'm sorry but I disagree with that. I read your post so I do kinda get where your coming from but.. meh. Isn't sonic 2 on the mastersytem/gamegear pretty slowpaced overall? (At least from what I remember)

I remember playing pretty careful in that game because of all the hazards and platforming

Edited November 27, 2010 by Jaouad

[Ebby]

I just bought it yesterday and made it through most of the game yesterday (I'm already at the end). I'll be honest. After a day, I'm not sure HOW to feel about it. The music is a huge let down for me. After hearing the amazing Planet Wisp music, I find that they only track that's remotely awesome is Aquarium Park. Starlight Carnival's music makes me wanna cry.

It's totally a platformer and they did bring back some great old-school touches (Sonic's in water!!!), but some of those levels are just horrible. I DON'T like bouncing on a yellow spring.

And surprisingly, I've been getting my ass handed to me in this game! I haven't been owned this hard in a Sonic game since SA2. I saw the game over screen at least five times. Sonic Colors does not hold your hand! XD

At this point, though it's an improved Unleashed system, I feel like I like Unleashed more. But I guess I have to warm up to it.

[JezMM]

"But goddamnit will people please stop assuming anyone who loves Unleashed with a passion loves Rush just as much. "

My post wasn't a reaction to how much you like unleashed.

But a reaction to this.

"I would say "Sonic should run fast most of the time" myself."

I'm sorry but I disagree with that. I read your post so I do kinda get where your coming from but.. meh. Isn't sonic 2 on the mastersytem/gamegear pretty slowpaced overall? (At least from what I remember)

I remember playing pretty careful in that game because of all the hazards and platforming

Okay fair enough, that IS a reasonable assumption to make.

As for Sonic 2 MS's speed... hmm, hard for me to tell. I've played it prolly over 100 times since I was a kid, so I can beat the levels in like 20-30 in-game seconds each. So at the very least it gives the opportunity to be played fast once you've learned the levels - there are few stages that force you to slow down, apart from maybe Aqua Lake 2, Gimmick Mt 3 and a couple other little spots.

[speedfreak]

I don't think it's fair to look at a game in pieces. While some may prefer the Day levels of SU to the levels of SC you can't just ignore that the stuff like medal collecting, Werehog, Tornado, hubs, etc bring down the game as a whole. I know someone is going to say "I liked all that stuff!" or something, but generally most people hated it.

So while I don't personally agree that SU day > SC, I can understand someone feeling that way. However when judging the games as a whole I honestly don't see how anyone could say SU comes out on top over SC.

[JezMM]

I still prefer Unleashed as a whole.

I'll never say Werehog is any more "Sonic" or any less intrusive than Wisps are, but I still know which game I got the most entertainment out of, found the most exciting to play through first time, and which one I'd take with me to a desert island.

But that's just me - I would never even attempt to justify it as the better game from a neutral unbiased standpoint.