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Djawed

So now that you have played sonic colo(u)rs

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INPUT THESE COMMANDS RIGHT NOW OR I'LL KILL YOU!

A + B + X + B + B + RT + RT + LT + TOO LATE I KILL YOU!

Let's, uh, never ever put those in a Sonic game again. How is it that God of War was such a great game, yet every single attempt at imitation just makes the surrounding game worse? Did anyone enjoy the button-mashing sequences in Resident Evil 4? Or the cutscenes that randomly kill you if you put down the controller? Sure, Sonic Colors does have its button press ramps, too, but since it's only one button and the game doesn't care if you press it outside the prompt window, it's painless - which admittedly makes it pretty silly that many later levels will kill you if you fail to get AMAZING!

What the game does right instead is those ramps that send you to different altitudes depending on whether you run into them or boost into them. Did Sonic Unleashed have those, too? I can't remember.

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INPUT THESE COMMANDS RIGHT NOW OR I'LL KILL YOU!

A + B + X + B + B + RT + RT + LT + TOO LATE I KILL YOU!

Let's, uh, never ever put those in a Sonic game again. How is it that God of War was such a great game, yet every single attempt at imitation just makes the surrounding game worse? Did anyone enjoy the button-mashing sequences in Resident Evil 4? Or the cutscenes that randomly kill you if you put down the controller? Sure, Sonic Colors does have its button press ramps, too, but since it's only one button and the game doesn't care if you press it outside the prompt window, it's painless - which admittedly makes it pretty silly that many later levels will kill you if you fail to get AMAZING!

What the game does right instead is those ramps that send you to different altitudes depending on whether you run into them or boost into them. Did Sonic Unleashed have those, too? I can't remember.

if you are talking about the werehog : I Never spoke of the QTE or the brawling or werehog's slow speed.

Apparently I said 'Movement Controls', that means left and right and forward and backward.

I also spoke about the Camera system. which provides a lot of explorations.

Sonic team should make sonic run a little bit more than the werehog, and give him momentum jumping.

that way his speed would increase by platforming, this is how it worked in the classics i believe.

Edited by speedduelist

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if you are talking about the werehog : I Never spoke of the QTE or the brawling or werehog's slow speed.

Apparently I said 'Movement Controls', that means left and right and forward and backward.

I also spoke about the Camera system. which provides a lot of explorations.

Sonic team should make sonic run a little bit more than the werehog, and give him momentum jumping.

that way his speed would increase by platforming, this is how it worked in the classics i believe.

I wasn't talking to you, I was referring to JezMM's mention of Unleashed's reaction tests. Nor was I referring to the werehog, but rather all those ramps that kill if you fail to input a number of button presses within a time limit.

It ain't all about you, speedduelist. Okay, now I'm teasing you.

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I still would say slowing down to the point of the Werehog is a bit too much. Frankly I find Sonic Adventure kind of a bit too slow quite often too, so that comparison is a little lost on me as well. Plus so much of Werehog's platforming was centered around his stretchy arms I find it hard to imagine what they could do to keep it unique and interesting... Take out all the arms-related platforming bits and enemies in Werehog stages and you're left with... well, nothing but those dreaded square platforms.

Oh and -putthecolouronthepodium- puzzles.

I dunno. I'd rather they just put in difficulty modes and be done with it. So the 3D-phobic Sonic players can enjoy their lame Colours-style 3D platforming and weirdoes like me can have their hardcore Unleashed-style reaction test platforming. 8(

I don't get what you're trying to say. You were disappointed at Colors' lack of 3D platforming, so you want to go back to the Unleashed style? Why not just hope they implement more 3D platforming next time?

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@Sean: I will say "react or die" is indeed a bad design. What I do want is "React or don't get to see this cool other route, perhaps with optional goodies inside". Colours opted more for: "Do an unSonicy platforming puzzle with a Wisp or don't get to see this cool other route, perhaps with optional goodies inside".

If there is one thing that the classics borrowed from Mario school of design it's that alternative and hidden paths should, half of the time, not be down to utilizing game specific gimmicks (in the case of classics, I'm referring to Sonic's speed) but more or less using your own explorative instinct and put a gimmick in secondary place, or as a reward for what you did. Colors does most of what you say about "react or don't get to see a cool route", for better or worse, even if half of it boils down to Wisp usage, but even then it doesn't always get slapped in your face so obviously. Sweet Mountain for example, there's a moment in the beginning where you might stumble upon a laser rod if you look around enough, but finding that laser requires you to go down an entirely alternate route.

I think that's just another advantage I see in Colors because half of the time all these cool routes aren't down to whether or not you already passed through them once. Even if it utilizes wisps to a good deal of stuff it does, half of them never feels like it segregates from Sonic's different gimmicks we've seen in the past and grown slightly used to by this point.

Edited by Carbo

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I'm saying Unleashed did 3D stuff way better than Colours. That's all I'm saying. And I loved Unleashed so yes, ideally, I would love to go back to it. "3D platforming" could mean anything really. I specifically want something along the lines of Unleashed because it was 3D platforming AND fast-paced, just as Sonic should be. Am I saying it was perfection? No, it can be improved. I just think Colours was lazy and removed the problems Unleashed had rather than solving them. Which unfortunately removed any sense of thrill or challenge at the same time.

Here's a list:

What Unleashed had that they got rid of in Colours:

Engaging 3D sections OTHER than quick-stepping to avoid stuff.

3D navigation that actually tested you (Colours had this at a couple of spots - the hidden spring at the start of Sweet Mountain Act 1 for example, and a multiple route or two on Asteroid Coaster).

Quick-step controls.

Drifting segments that were actually challenging.

What Colours did that I would most certainly keep:

Double-jump.

Drifting controls.

The little "!" to warn you of a bottomless pit.

Lack of QTEs.

And I honestly think if just those four things had been in Unleashed people would be a lot less annoyed about it.

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I know I'm gonna be hated for saying this, but to me they're both as bad as each other. Both of them fail to hold my attention long due to the sheer boringness of them both, I'm not even stuck on 'em and I just have no interest whatsoever in continuing these awful games... However if I had to choose, Colours gets my vote for being the best, why? Because at least in this game you don't have to trail through all those god damn awful Werehog levels >.< And I must say- The DS version of Colours is great in comparison to the Wii version, so I guess you could say the DS version of Colours defo gets my vote at being the best xP

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Now I've not played Sonic Unleashed, but from what I've seen, the actual Sonic content of the game seems to outweigh the Sonic content of Colours, and the primary reason Colours gets considered better is due to the lack of Werehogs and filler content. If Sonic Unleashed was one solid playthrough of Daytime levels (360/PS3, Wii/PS2 and DLC content put together) with a little less fake difficulty and occasionally broken up by a Tornado level or a small hub quest (the hubs looked nice, only they were too mandatory), that would stand tall as an amazing Sonic-only Sonic title. Throw in SA2B races through the levels, score attacks, the ability to save time trial ghosts and so on, and you'd have a pretty amazing game.

What was good about Unleashed looked really good in my opinion. Unfortunately it was spread too thinly between consoles of different horsepower, and DLC, so the good stuff just got outweighed by Werehog. Because of that I reckon Sonic Colours wins, but of course I haven't played both so I'm not really entitled to judge.

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I say combine and refine everything they've learnt so far. From level design, to mechanics.

Look at the things Adventure did. Take out the things that didn't work. Take a look at what Colours did. Take out the things that didn't work. Do the same for Unleashed. Do the same for the classics aswell. Mash that up. Test it out, see how it handles. Refine it. Keep refining the engine for a year, whilst the rest of the team handle the level art and level design. take a solid 2-5 years to make every game.

I feel, if people want Sonic to be taken seriously, he needs to be missed. a five year gap between games would, 1) allow for a really polished game to be released, 2) get people wondering what happened to Sonic, so when they see the game after 5 years, they are actually surprised and impressed. If fans really can't handle that much time without a new Sonic, then just make a handheld/download division of Sonic Team made up in America to release a new game every so often to tide the gap.

.

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@Scar: That works in theory, but not in reality.

Sega is a big third-party company, but compared to Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo, it's very small. Also, unlike the big three, Sonic's Sega's only big money-maker. Valkyria Chronicles, Yukuza, etc. aren't. (The lone exception is Bayonetta, but Sega published the game only.) The reason we see Sonic games get churned out like this is because if Sega doesn't, how will they get their dough? Pachinko machines aren't enough to keep them afloat. The Sonic games are a main source of their revenue. No new Sonic games on the market likely mean Sega will slowly lose money and die out.

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Sonic Colors is better because it takes what was good about Unleashed, tweaks and refines it, adds gimmick that's fun enough and implemented well enough that it doesn't feel like a gimmick and makes a full game out it.

It also doesn't have the old Sonic voice cast which is a plus. Dohohohoho~

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I thought this too, but then I realised, if they had anything more than basic Straight-line gameplay, the Wii would probably die trying to render it all fast enough to keep up with Sonic. Even Unleashed HD had trouble with rendering the Sonic stages. Especially in Jungle Joyride Day.

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If by "tweak and refine" you mean "take out the hard bits and replace them with bland ridiculously basic platforming" then yes, I agree.

It sounds so bad when you put it like that. :lol:

Personally, I am of the thought that the dev's never had any intention of creating Colors into a Unleashed 2.0 even though that is what we all expected. Rather than tweaking and refining the concepts learned, I think the developers had a concept in mind from the beginning and built up their own game, taking bits of inspiration from Unleashed here and there. It doesn't take much to look at the two games and see that the playstyles are coming from two different directions.

It'll be interesting to see where the non-storybook Sonic Team goes from here. The obvious road to take would be a tweaking of Colors, but we literally have just been down this path before. They have a wild streak going that is hard to predict.

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Rectangle basic platforming or not. In the end it's just a visual aspect. The objects could have looked more detailed and less flat but it would still have been the same game.

I agree however from a visual perspecitve, the foreground(where your running and jumping) it could use a little bit more visual spectacle. Kinda like DKCR. Other than that, I really don't know what your problem is with the whole basic platforming. Give me an idea of what you would have liked to see, Jezzm

Also I would like to add, the little bit of 3d platforming in sonic colors was superior to unleashed little bit of 3d platforming in my opinion. Not that i'm saying it was any good in colors, but it was better at least

Edited by Jaouad

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I think Colours is more "sonicy" visually than everything than has come this years (2006, Unleashed, Secret Rings and Black Knights).

Stages like Tropical Resort with all the neon lights and shit and Planet Wisp gives me a feel of old Sonic stages themes (especially Sonic CD)

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Just a visual aspect? Not in the slightest! Where's all the quirky levels designs that Sonic games what they are? Colours is lacking in that department. It's bland.

Compared to sonic unleashed it is not, and that's what this thread was about. But please eleborate, I also know that sonic colors could have been much better of course but I thought it was defenitly a breath of fresh air after seeing sonic's canon franchise heading a sort of rush-esque direction in 3d and forgetting about a big part of what sonic was. And allthough most gameplay came just from jumping from platform to platform (I think that's what you mean with bland platforming) with not enough variation, it was enough for me to enjoy the whole playthrough and completing the game. I was enjoying the game without thinking too deeply about it whereas in sonic unleashed. I just simply didn't enjoy unleashed for being mostly a trial and error game and gameplay based around reflexes and visual spectacle.

Edited by Jaouad

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Compared to sonic unleashed it is not, and that's what this thread was about. But please eleborate, I also know that sonic colors could have been much better of course but I thought it was defenitly a breath of fresh air after seeing sonic's canon franchise heading a sort of rush-esque direction in 3d and forgetting about a big part of what sonic was. And allthough most gameplay came just from jumping from platform to platform (I think that's what you mean with bland platforming) with not enough variation, it was enough for me to enjoy the whole playthrough and completing the game. I was enjoying the game without thinking too deeply about it whereas in sonic unleashed. I just simply didn't enjoy unleashed for being mostly a trial and error game and gameplay based around reflexes and visual spectacle.

Yep, that's exactly what I mean. The style of platforming in Colours is nothing like I would expect to see in a Sonic game. Worst of all is that it it's pretty much all slow platforming. I'm all for slowing down in Sonic games, I prefer them not to be SPEEDSPEEDSPEED, but with Colours it just wasn't right. Unleashed, with it's few platforming areas, actually delivered more for me. The whole waterfall segment in Jungle Joyride for example is great fun.

And on a different end of the scale, did Colours feel a bit dead to anyone else? The settings I mean. Here's Sonic and Tails in this incredible interstellar amusement park and there's... nobody there. I mean, really? It was bit of a let down not to see crowds in cutscenes. Or heck, even see more aspects of the park itself. Most of the game didn't look like it had much to do with a park. Where were all the rides? And chilli dogs? This game should have had 'em. At least the DS version has other characters around the place. Some are there totally randomly (Silver: I came back it time to go on a ferris wheel, Blaze: The Sol Emeralds told me to go on a ferris wheel), but it helps with the atmosphere.

For the record I love Colours. It's just that everything it does, Unleashed does better. Of course Unleashed has much more bogging it down too.

Edited by Blue Blood

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^ Agreed. The locations, for all their prettiness, did feel very... lifeless. Tropical Resort is the worst offender though for sure. It did give me a sense of the park not actually being open fully yet but... yeah I dunno.

Also while Unleashed suffered from this 75% of the time, Colours suffered 100% of the time: you can never explore the scenery. You're always confined to the "track" that is the level, even in 3D. I can't go wander around all the little buildings and fountains and stuff off to the side of the level due to invisible walls. I'm fine with there being an invisible wall EVENTUALLY, but gimme a little freedom to go poke around, come on.

Jaouad: I highlighted my qualms with level design a little in this comparison video I made a month or so ago:

Jumping on platforms in such a basic way has been around since the genre-creating Donkey Kong arcade game. It's not UNfun, I just expect something a little more engaging in this day and age, and ESPECIALLY in Sonic.

Edited by JezMM

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^ Agreed. The locations, for all their prettiness, did feel very... lifeless. Tropical Resort is the worst offender though for sure. It did give me a sense of the park not actually being open fully yet but... yeah I dunno.

Also while Unleashed suffered from this 75% of the time, Colours suffered 100% of the time: you can never explore the scenery. You're always confined to the "track" that is the level, even in 3D. I can't go wander around all the little buildings and fountains and stuff off to the side of the level due to invisible walls. I'm fine with there being an invisible wall EVENTUALLY, but gimme a little freedom to go poke around, come on.

Something I really appreciated in Unleashed were the landmarks that you actually went up close to or how you clearly went through different areas in the same level. The clock tower in Rooftop Run, whales in Cool Edge, drawing in ever closer to the temples in Jungle Joyride. And then how you start in a city in Arid Sands but end up in the desert, or how in Cool Edge you go from ice caps to a frozen cave (Unleashed Wii). It was so cool. For the most part in Colours this really doesn't happen. It's not a bad thing that it doesn't happen, just lesser in comparison. So much less. Plus seeing how alive the actual towns were in Unleashed, with people wandering about the levels and the immense amount of detail that was actually close up to the paths Sonic was on just made for a much more satisfying feel. I suppose that last one isn't helped in Colours by the wide, motorway-esque 3D areas.

EDIT: Jez, I refuse to watch that video. I've always known you're a dude, but your avatars have always said otherwise and you're supposed to have a girls voice as a result. >=(

Edited by Blue Blood

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Now I've not played Sonic Unleashed, but from what I've seen, the actual Sonic content of the game seems to outweigh the Sonic content of Colours, and the primary reason Colours gets considered better is due to the lack of Werehogs and filler content. If Sonic Unleashed was one solid playthrough of Daytime levels (360/PS3,and DLC content put together) with a little less fake difficulty and occasionally broken up by a Tornado level or a small hub quest (the hubs looked nice, only they were too mandatory), that would stand tall as an amazing Sonic-only Sonic title.

Coudn't they just repackage Sonic Unleashed that way, adjust the tacked on spikes in the like in the DLC levels to make it make it more equal with the difficulty with levels before Eggamnland?

Remove Cutscenes, call it the Arcade version of Sonic Unleashed or call it Sonic World Adventure or something, sell it for 15 or 20 downloadable...that would be easy money woudn't it?

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