Spin Dash or Boost

[Sir Tormund]

One of Sonic's signature moves as of lately has been phased out of his... um... moveset, I guess.

You know what I'm talking about.

The spin dash!

In the 3d games, the spin dash takes on a progressively less important role in Sonic's moveset as the game goes on, from the classic spinning in 3 and Knuckles to Unleashed (PS360), where the move has been removed entirely in favor of the boost. Technically, Sonic never even curls into a ball except when he's jumping. Even '06 had some kind of spin dash in the moveset!

So, spin dash or boost?

Thoughts?

EDIT: yeah, i sorta screwed up the last choice

you should probably just ignore it

proofreading would be good, too

Edited September 1, 2009 by Ginko

[ovarloard]

I like the boost from Unleashed (Wii).

For as long as we have games that don't make use of pinball physics, I think the spindash isn't very necessary, as the boost does what it does and faster. Plus, the boost doesn't last as long... at least, the boost on the Unleashed version for the Wii. The Wii's boost was a lot shorter, and it was limited. It was also harder to keep the boost gauge up in the Wii version, and you had to choose where to use it and what to save it for. I think it adds more strategy that way.

[Reverest]

I also like the boost from the Wii.

If you were really really skilled on some levels you could probably use anywhere. I mean you'll be like burning rubber, but who gives?

[Blacklightning]

I'm going to be the odd one out and say Speed Break. Why? Because you're actually expected to conserve it. It's not something you're expected to use throughout the entire level as much as it is a wildcard stored up over time. Instead of coming off as a requirement, it's more of a reward for collecting so many Soul Orbs and not wasting them in one way or another. It's basically ShTH's Chaos Control done right. Only problem was that you couldn't see what the fuck you were running into.

I like speed as much as the last man, but honestly, if it has to be used so persistently then you might as well make it Sonic's default speed instead of assigning a button to it.

[Diogenes]

There doesn't need to be a choice. The reason the current boost makes the spindash obsolete is because it's massively overpowered. It's faster than the spindash ever was, you're nearly invulnerable while using it, and it lasts as long as you hold down the button rather that petering out naturally like the spindash. And while it technically has some limit in place so you can't literally use it infinitely, fueling it is never an issue, so the restriction might as well not even be there.

The solution isn't just to ditch one or the other. The solution is to tone down the boost and balance it so there are situations where the spindash is better than the boost and others where the boost is better than the spindash.

Here's how I see it: The benefits of the spindash are the burst of speed and the fact that you're in attack mode. The downsides are that you have to stop to charge it up and that on flat or uphill ground you'll lose speed over time. The boost, obviously, is going to give you a burst of speed as well, so to balance it, take away the boost's use as an attack. Even just doing that starts to balance it; you choose between a slower startup with some protection from enemies, or immediate speed at the risk of plowing face-first into every robot you come across. You'd probably need some more balancing, considering that attacking enemies isn't usually a high priority in this series (maybe make a well-charged spindash faster than standard boosting speed, and/or have a way to uncurl from a roll as in the Adventures to help prevent the eventual slowdown), but it's a solid start, and I think it's proof enough that the two can coexist.

[Phos]

No matter what form you try to use to hide the boost, it still sucks. Including it makes too large a change to retain the things that made the old (aka, good) games fun.

Spin Dash, and if it suits the game, Peel Out as well.

[ovarloard]

I'm going to be the odd one out and say Speed Break. Why? Because you're actually expected to conserve it. It's not something you're expected to use throughout the entire level as much as it is a wildcard stored up over time. Instead of coming off as a requirement, it's more of a reward for collecting so many Soul Orbs and not wasting them in one way or another. It's basically ShTH's Chaos Control done right. Only problem was that you couldn't see what the fuck you were running into.

I like speed as much as the last man, but honestly, if it has to be used so persistently then you might as well make it Sonic's default speed instead of assigning a button to it.

That was what I first thought. But then I remembered about what you just said... that you can't see where you're going.

That, to me, ruins the fun of being fast.

[HeroMystic]

I'd prefer if Boost was replaced with Super Peel Out, and for Spin Dash to be added back on.

As what Diogenes said, the boost system as of now is pretty overpowered, as it can more or less be compared to Shadow's Chaos Control (although he needed a full bar to use it). If Super Peel Out was put back on, it can serve as your "boost", and Spin Dash can be your "RAWR!" attack although not as fast as Peel Out.

[Diogenes]

Man, fuck the peel out. It never did anything more than look pretty.

[HeroMystic]

Sonic likes being pretty though....

[Phos]

Man, fuck the peel out. It never did anything more than look pretty.

It sends you at full speed, the spin dash does not. More importantly, you were standing so you would remain at top speed. You could also screech right out of it.

And rule of Cool.

[G-Force]

The Spin Dash from Sonic Adventure 2 (and probably the first Adventure, though I'm not as sure) was quick charging, gave practically instant high speeds and, most importantly, could be canceled, putting Sonic into a high speed run. If they made it work like that again, it would pretty much kick the crap out of boosting and peel-outs.

[Indigo Rush]

I was thinking that maybe you could combine the two. Sonic charges his spindash, and when you release it, you blast off as if it were a boost, but the longer it lasts depends on how long you charged. After a certain amount of time, it turns into a regular spindash. Pinball physics and all. You can still do a regular roll by canceling it out as soon as you blast off.

...good idea, yes?

[Totally]

For a 3D game I prefer Unleashed (360) but 2d like Sonic Rush I can't stop pushin the down button to make a spindah!

[JezMM]

I absoloutely love the boost in Sonic Unleashed 360 because it makes speed-running stages really damn fun, exhilirating and challenging. Seriously, holding down the boost ALL THE WAY THROUGH makes the game harder than never using it, but if you manage it, you end up with an awesome record time.

My idea is simply reduce how much rings fuel the boost. Make it so it takes a whole 100 rings or so to fill up the gauge completely or something.

However when replaying levels through the level select... you get infinate boost, so speed running levels is now a seperate option rather than something you can choose to do first time round. That way all the idiots who held down boost first time playing the game can stop moaning about it being trial and error. P=

Spin-dash is lovely and all but you have to stop to use it. It's kinda lame. If you must bring it back, I'd say base it on Sonic Adventure 2's spin dash. While you had to stop to use that at least it was only for a second due to how quick it charged.

I realise I may be hypocrtical here because I LOVE the slow platforming sections too, but to be honest once you've practiced enough not even those slow you down when performing a perfect run. I can't think of any levels where I literally have to stand and wait for a platform/enemy to get into posistion without having something to do in the mean time to keep on the move...

So basically yeah, I dislike the spin-dash, even in SA2, because using it to go top speed makes me feel like I'm stopping and starting all the way through the level, only going fast in little bursts. I love the option to just blast through super fast once I've learnt the level.

My final request is to replace the tinny-sounding effect on the music with a faster percussion track or electronic beat while you're boosting. It's a cool effect but drowns out the awesome fast-paced music while you boost, lol.

[Shiny Gems]

Personally, I love the boost 15 times more than the Spin Dash. The boost, unlike the spindash, makes the speed sensation of the game more exhilarating. Like Jez said, you have to stop to use the spin dash, which is something I am not so fond of.

EDIT: Nice idea, Indigo.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Flamerstreak

[Eternal EX]

Like many people said, just combine the spin dash and boost. Like SU (wii) did, boost but in the spin/attack mode. I liked that alot in SU (wii) but I like the length of the 360 version of boost. So my idea is to just combine the 2 into one move, boost+spindash= fast as hell spin ball thingy with the option to go back to running mode at any given moment.

Edit: swear i just repeated what indigo said.

Edited April 8, 2009 by SHADIC360©

[Legendary Emerald]

Boosting was fine in the Sonic Rush series, because it was a simple 2D platformer with lots of gimmicks and a trick system to keep you busy while you ran to the right.

BUT when the Sonic Unleashed team decided to copy the system, they created what I think is the absolute worst fuck-up of a Sonic game I've ever played. Gameplay became WAY to simple, and I hardly feel like I'm playing the game anymore when I pop it in out of boredom. At least Werehog has actuall gameplay beyond holding down one button, sometimes drifting to the side, and stopping to homing attack an enemy every minute or so. Almost nothing is done in the daylight stages that could not be done on a McDonalds LCD game.

Spin Dash wasn't always that usefull, but at least it didn't become the basis for every game's level design. Plus, it was pretty badass in Sonic Adventure to just slam through enemies old-school with it. So yeah, spin dash all the way. And please fix that poll, so my vote can actually be entered.

[Indigo Rush]

Edit: swear i just repeated what indigo said.

People tend to do that. That means it's a good idea! I'm glad it boiled over well. I was afraid I'd get bashed.

I still want to work out the kinks in the whole canceling out bit. It doesn't seem like a simple maneuver, and Sonic's all about simplicity, after all. In my game ideas, I always liked the two-button nothing more plan, so maybe pressing both buttons simultaneously should initiate the super-spindash?

[JezMM]

Boosting was fine in the Sonic Rush series, because it was a simple 2D platformer with lots of gimmicks and a trick system to keep you busy while you ran to the right.

BUT when the Sonic Unleashed team decided to copy the system, they created what I think is the absolute worst fuck-up of a Sonic game I've ever played. Gameplay became WAY to simple, and I hardly feel like I'm playing the game anymore when I pop it in out of boredom. At least Werehog has actuall gameplay beyond holding down one button, sometimes drifting to the side, and stopping to homing attack an enemy every minute or so. Almost nothing is done in the daylight stages that could not be done on a McDonalds LCD game.

Spin Dash wasn't always that usefull, but at least it didn't become the basis for every game's level design. Plus, it was pretty badass in Sonic Adventure to just slam through enemies old-school with it. So yeah, spin dash all the way. And please fix that poll, so my vote can actually be entered.

I'm assuming you played the Wii/PS2 version right? If so thank you for agreeing with me on what Wii/PS2 daytime gameplay is like. D= I'm sure some other people have agreed that Wii gameplay was really lifeless and boring but I have a bad memory so you're officially the new first person to agree with me like, ever.

If you're talking about the 360/PS3 version though I don't know what to think anymore. D8

[SykoTech]

You left off a few methods of boosting from the poll. There have been different ways to Spin Dash as well.

Speed Break sucks. Way too automated and the blurriness makes it so that you can't see what's coming up next unless you memorized the level.

The Boost from Advance 2/3 is also lame because you it is uncontrollably executed, leaving one to often dash in undesirable ways....like off of a cliff.

The Boost from Unleashed (Wii) would have been okay if it could have been cancelled. Since it can't, the danger of boosting straight off the map remains present.

The Boost from Rush and Unleashed PS3 is definitely the winner here (if there's a difference between the two, besides how you fuel the gauge of course, please inform me). It's highly exhilerating, can be used for any length, can be cancelled at any time, still allows access to Sonic's moveset, keeps the level design visible, and (in my case) shoots the replayability factor up ten fold.

Rush and Unleashed PS3 are the only Sonic games that I really play nowadays. I'll go back to others every now and then, but it's mainly for nostalgia rather than for genuine fun. The Boost isn't the only reason, but it sure is a big one.

As for the Spin Dash, well it depends on what we're talking about here. I'm probably alone on this, but I'm used to that so I'll just say it.

I. HATE. REVING.

I didn't like it back like it back when I was 2, and I don't like it now. And before anyone tries to make a joke, I'm 18 now.

I just dislike the way Sonic has to be haulted not only from his progression but from all the action that's around him in order to use it. I also found it to be a cheap way translate into the physics of the old games. It's also pretty cheap defensive move. Just sit still, rev up, and watch damn near any mobile enemy kill itself the second it touches Sonic! Lame. The only time reving is any fun is in Brawl, and that's only in terms of being a fake out move.

When I play the old games, I always use the method of rolling. It's a perfect shift to the physics, keeps the action flowing, and more of good tactical use than a cheap way to protective yourself. If they had to bring reving back though, I'd go for the SA1 method. It's was near seamless itself, offered a ton of speed, and could be turned on a dime.

My idea is simply reduce how much rings fuel the boost. Make it so it takes a whole 100 rings or so to fill up the gauge completely or something.

If they were to do that, they'd best make an option so that the game can be played regularly from the start. It would serve as great pacifier to keep those spazzes from crying so much, but I personally would hate to only be able to Boost for a second or two unless I have a megaton of rings. Even if it is just for the first playthrough...

[turbojet]

I prefer the boost in Sonic Unleashed and Phos is insane. What made the old games fun was the branching paths. Not the pinball physics. I hated the casin levels and the over redundant bumbers that led to nowhere. I find, and always will find the spin dash ridicuolusly pointless. Why do I have to stop to rev when Sonic should be fast enough to run? Taking away the boost will just show that we are all stuck in 1991 when there was no choice but to have a slower Sonic. Obviously it was Segas intention to make Sonic fast so why not make hime fast? Now if we were given the choice to spindash whenever we wanted then it will be cool. As Stevie J(Distant J?) said, Rolling would be more acceptable than the spindash.

[Phos]

I prefer the boost in Sonic Unleashed and Phos is insane. What made the old games fun was the branching paths. Not the pinball physics.

You don't seem to realize how much you loose if you take away Pinball physics. Lets see, stuff you lose:

Loops

The ability to be flung skyward by quarter pipes

gaining speed from inclines.

bouncing to a fixed height off of enemies, rather than being dependent on your vertical momentum.

GHZ style tubes.

Any sort of momentum.

Sonic 06 had branching paths but not pinball dynamics, and you know that turned out.

Branching paths are a separate trait, read this site. Sounds like a lot, but there isn't much text on each page, and it's a nice read.

Taking away the boost will just show that we are all stuck in 1991 when there was no choice but to have a slower Sonic. Obviously it was Segas intention to make Sonic fast so why not make hime fast? Now if we were given the choice to spindash whenever we wanted then it will be cool. As Stevie J(Distant J?) said, Rolling would be more acceptable than the spindash.

First off all, if you know what you're doing in Sonic 1, you can meet or exceed the speed Sonic goes at with the boost in Unleashed. And Sonic doesn't go that slowly due to technical limitations, the engine that Sonic is built off of can scroll three screen widths in one second. Also, Sonic's top running speed in Sonic 2 is roughly the same as Sonic's top non boosted speed in Sonic Unleashed (PS360).

[Rusty Spy]

After giving it a bit of thought, I think I'm in agreement with those who suggested combining the two. Boost be the speed and spin dash be the power. I can imagine using a combination of the spin dash and boost to do what Sonic does in the Wii version of Unleashed where he boost's while spin dashing. It's like the Boost from Advance 2 and 3, only you have control over it. A little tweak of both dashes and we may be on to something.

I wouldn't call the spin dash useless, it wasn't a dominating move in the game and it took advantage of the rolling mechanics more to gain speed. Of course since Sonic is much faster today, the spin dash seems pretty useless if it's implemented the way it was back then, but of course, there's nothing a little tweaking can't fix, right?

[SuperStingray]

If they try to work off of Unleashed, I think the boost would be best in 3D mode while the spin dash would be best in the 2D gameplay. The boost should still be toned down though; it's pace is fine, but you shouldn't be able to jump to full throttle every time you pick up a few rings.

Man, fuck the peel out. It never did anything more than look pretty.

And that's a bad thing?