Spin Dash or Boost

[Diogenes]

I was thinking that maybe you could combine the two. Sonic charges his spindash, and when you release it, you blast off as if it were a boost, but the longer it lasts depends on how long you charged. After a certain amount of time, it turns into a regular spindash. Pinball physics and all. You can still do a regular roll by canceling it out as soon as you blast off.

How is this any different than the spindash as it is? Charge-up, a burst of speed, and then rolling. Why even bother putting the boost in if you're removing all of its functionality in the process?

Plus you're apparently going from a spinning charge to a run to a spin, which really doesn't make any sense.

Sonic 06 had branching paths but not pinball dynamics, and you know that turned out.

Yeah, and Hitler wore pants, so we should all walk around in our underwear.

And that's a bad thing?

It's kind of a silly reason to resurrect a move that was almost redundant in the game it was introduced. If you like how it looked, just use that animation for his running.

[Phos]

Yeah, and Hitler wore pants, so we should all walk around in our underwear.

The root of Sonic 06's problems are it's terrible controls, brought on by the lack of physics.

[SuperStingray]

Yeah, and Hitler wore pants, so we should all walk around in our underwear.

I wish I could use that as an excuse. Pants are too restrictive.

The root of Sonic 06's problems are it's terrible controls, brought on by the lack of physics.

In all honesty, I felt the controls themselves were quite responsive in 06, with the exception of certain moments with the camera and the high speed sections. It's really the physics I felt were the core issue in the end.

[Phos]

In all honesty, I felt the controls themselves were quite responsive in 06, with the exception of certain moments with the camera and the high speed sections. It's really the physics I felt were the core issue in the end.

Basically what I meant, but I was kind of lumping player character physics into controls.

As for the boost, it would be more acceptable without the attack and the burst of speed at the start, that would basically make it a run button, and it would still have to problem of being more effective than rolling, taking away the spontenaity of rolling a the right time. But I'd still want Sonic to be able to move that fast under some circumstances, but I don't really like the speed shoes very much. But I recalled something about the Peel out - after release, Sonic is traveling faster than his usual top speed, and he doesn't slow down. My idea is to have the Peel out be something you can start while moving, but slows you down rapidly while charging it (a lot like the Sonic Adventure 2 spin dash). That allows you to get the overclocked speed of the boost without the overpowered nature.

Still not 100% happy with this idea.

[Tyranno]

You don't seem to realize how much you loose if you take away Pinball physics. Lets see, stuff you lose:

Loops

Funny.

I thought Unleashed had those.

And I remember several events where you had to have a decent amount of speed to go through them.

[Sega DogTagz]

Rolling to kill enemies seems almost out of question with the speeds of the recent games, especially the 2D ones. The reflexes required to avoid enemy placements would be ridiculous.

That aside, I’d still like to see Sonic Team make the Spin-dash work. I really liked how it was implemented in SA2 by maximizing your top speed (especially downhill). I think it would be hard in a game like unleashed, but at least the Wii version attempted to give us some sort of spin-dash.

As for the boost, I am still in love with it. It kicks Sonic’s gameplay up to the next level and some of the best platforming I’ve come across was speed induced (like Wii Eggmanland). Sonic Rush wouldn’t be Sonic Rush w/o the tricks and boost. I voted for Rush’s boost, because you got more of a feeling of earning the boost and the extra incentive of getting greedy and cramming one more trick in before the finale move always got the blood pumping.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[SuperStingray]

First off all, if you know what you're doing in Sonic 1, you can meet or exceed the speed Sonic goes at with the boost in Unleashed.

That's a clear exaggeration if I've ever seen one. Hell, sliding down the hill at the beginning of Marble Garden Zone in Sonic 3 just barely met the boost speed in Unleashed.

[Eternal EX]

That's a clear exaggeration if I've ever seen one. Hell, sliding down the hill at the beginning of Marble Garden Zone in Sonic 3 just barely met the boost speed in Unleashed.

And the winner of this arguement is......*drum roll*

STINGRAY!

Anyways Boost+SD=awesome if done right!!! Nuff said.

[Phos]

Funny.

I thought Unleashed had those.

And I remember several events where you had to have a decent amount of speed to go through them.

Unleashed has pinball dynamics, but few places to take advantage of them. Aside from the loops, I can think of three.

That's a clear exaggeration if I've ever seen one. Hell, sliding down the hill at the beginning of Marble Garden Zone in Sonic 3 just barely met the boost speed in Unleashed.

The hill at the start of Marble Garden Zone is designed to slow Sonic down to keep him from accelerating too fast. In Sonic 1 2 and 3, Sonic has no vertical speed cap, he will accelerate until he reaches 128 pixels per second, and then roll over to -128 pixels per second and shoot upwards. To keep this from happening, vertically looping areas fling Sonic into surfaces at roughly the normal (angle parallel to a surface). No, that's not where Sonic goes his fastest. I think this is a physics glitch that they decided not to fix, but when Sonic passes over a concave surface, he speeds up. this is very evident in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq1W8N6zDB0.

Gravity in Unleashed seems to be at the same level to or less than the gravity in Sonic 1 (Or there's a vertical sped cap, not sure which). With that in mind, we can assume that if they were traveling at the same speed, they would spend the same amount of time in the air if they go through a quarter pipe and are sent straight up. I timed this out, comparing a moment in Windmill Island Act 2, where I knew I was going full speed because I got the ten-ring, and found that Sonic remained in the air for 2.4 seconds. I found the best spot I could in Star Light Zone, and was able to get around 2.5 seconds. In both cases, I landed just to the right of the end of the quarter pipe.

Sonic Unleashed is the first 3D game to go as fast as the classics. Do you think I make this shit up for kicks and giggles?

Edited April 9, 2009 by Phos

[SuperStingray]

Gravity in Unleashed seems to be at the same level to or less than the gravity in Sonic 1 (Or there's a vertical sped cap, not sure which). With that in mind, we can assume that if they were traveling at the same speed, they would spend the same amount of time in the air if they go through a quarter pipe and are sent straight up. I timed this out, comparing a moment in Windmill Island Act 2, where I knew I was going full speed because I got the ten-ring, and found that Sonic remained in the air for 2.4 seconds. I found the best spot I could in Star Light Zone, and was able to get around 2.5 seconds. In both cases, I landed just to the right of the end of the quarter pipe.

Okay, maybe the Marble Garden hill was a bad example because gravity =/= speed. It contributes, yes, but it's hardly what determines what's going on here because what you're dealing with here is Sonic's terminal velocity, not his top speed.

Edited April 9, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Phos]

His terminal velocity is unreachable in Sonic 1. He does have one in Unleashed, which means you would expect Sonic to remain in the air longer in Unleashed, but that's not the case.

[Indigo Rush]

How is this any different than the spindash as it is? Charge-up, a burst of speed, and then rolling. Why even bother putting the

boost in if you're removing all of its functionality in the process?

Plus you're apparently going from a spinning charge to a run to a spin, which really doesn't make any sense.

When I said charging off in a boost, he would be in ball mode anyway. Not running mode. Sorry if you thought that, I should be more clear in my posts.

And to everyone debating about Sonic's top velocity...

Sonic goes fast. See Sonic run. Run Sonic, run!

That's about all you should care about. As long as Sonic is fast, but not too fast, I'm cool with it. If i were given the opportunity to design a game, I'd put in my ideas, but ultimately it's up to Sega, so... yeah. Why bicker on how fast Sonic was in the classics vs...

Oh, wait.

I see where this is going.

Modern vs Classics.

Uh. Bad idea. Yeah. Bye. *leaves their discussion and moves over to another topic*

Seriously, the spindash was a good move when Sonic was slower, but now if they added it in, it would only be for aesthetic purposes. He doesn't really need it. That's why I suggested that the spindash be combined with the boost. A beefed up version of the spindash, and to have the option to do a regular spindash in more free roaming areas. But oh well.

Let the classics vs modern debate continue.

[Djawed]

Boosting was fine in the Sonic Rush series, because it was a simple 2D platformer with lots of gimmicks and a trick system to keep you busy while you ran to the right.

BUT when the Sonic Unleashed team decided to copy the system, they created what I think is the absolute worst fuck-up of a Sonic game I've ever played. Gameplay became WAY to simple, and I hardly feel like I'm playing the game anymore when I pop it in out of boredom. At least Werehog has actuall gameplay beyond holding down one button, sometimes drifting to the side, and stopping to homing attack an enemy every minute or so. Almost nothing is done in the daylight stages that could not be done on a McDonalds LCD game.

Spin Dash wasn't always that usefull, but at least it didn't become the basis for every game's level design. Plus, it was pretty badass in Sonic Adventure to just slam through enemies old-school with it. So yeah, spin dash all the way. And please fix that poll, so my vote can actually be entered.

this all the way. I also think the boost killed unleashed

[The Adventurer]

I have to say, boost is pretty godmod. Especially with the instant ring-collection thing it does, you can just use it over and over and over again. I think I'd prefer some kind of move that you could charge up during 'dead time', periods in which sonic has little-to-no control over his actions. Bouncing from a spring, grinding on a rail, ect. You could charge it up while running normally as well. That way, you could use the boost whenever you liked, but you couldn't spam it.

And yes, the spindash should come back. Changed if necessary, but it should come back. Sonic. Spinning. Come on.

[SykoTech]

Stevie J(Distant J?)

Uh, no. That's not me. I used to be "SykoNutz/Sykic_Sonic" on the old boards.

Something else I'd like to say. Even though I love the Boost, I'm not exactly fond it's continuous use of mowing down enemies. I can see what they are trying to do, making Sonic's speed seem truly powerful rather than just a side effect from caffine, but it comes to a point where the enemy designs don't matter. Rush had regular Egg Pawns and ones with shields that couldn't killed from the front with a Spin Attack, but that didn't matter since they can killed in a split second by boosting.

Rather than nerf the boost, I'd like to just see them come up with enemie designs that can't be dealt with by merely running into them as they stand there. Unleashed did introduce Aero Chasers and Intceptors, so I'd go with something in that direction. Perhaps make some enemies that are too large to simply be knocked down like that or something...

[SuperStingray]

His terminal velocity is unreachable in Sonic 1. He does have one in Unleashed, which means you would expect Sonic to remain in the air longer in Unleashed, but that's not the case.

That still doesn't have anything to do with the point. This is Sonic falling, not running. You can't boost downward in Unleashed.

[Stephen]

im not a fan of the unleashed wii one because why would you spin if you were already moving?

[Eternal EX]

Rather than nerf the boost, I'd like to just see them come up with enemy designs that can't be dealt with by merely running into them as they stand there. Unleashed did introduce Aero Chasers and Intceptors, so I'd go with something in that direction. Perhaps make some enemies that are too large to simply be knocked down like that or something...

And SU also introduced the electro shield pawns. I till this day hate those bastards.

[Tyranno]

That still doesn't have anything to do with the point. This is Sonic falling, not running. You can't boost downward in Unleashed.

Well, in Eggmanland, Spagonia, and Chun-nan you kinda can.

[SuperStingray]

Well, in Eggmanland, Spagonia, and Chun-nan you kinda can.

Only if your on a hill, which is still running. Not to mention affected by gravity as the case may be.

[Tyranno]

Only if your on a hill, which is still running. Not to mention affected by gravity as the case may be.

I was referring to the free falling segments.

[Phos]

That still doesn't have anything to do with the point. This is Sonic falling, not running. You can't boost downward in Unleashed.

This is how the test worked:

Because gravity seems to be equal between the two game, if they were going at the same speed, they would spend the same amount of time in the air. Sonic Unleashed has a falling speed cap, so this can only skew the result in it's favor.

The test works by turning all of Sonic's horizontal speed into vertical speed and then recording the time he spends in the air. If Sonic was going faster before hitting the quarter pipe, he is going to spend longer in the air because it will take gravity longer to pull him back to the surface (All of Sonic's horizontal speed has been turned into vertical speed, so any horizontal motion after the launch has no effect).

Sonic spends roughly the same amount of time in the air in both, so he's going at roguhly the same speed.

[SuperStingray]

This is how the test worked:

For Sonic to have launched that high in the original game, he had to have had a boost of his own from a downward slope or spring.

[Phos]

Yeah, I didn't include it in the picture because then it would be too big. In my Starlight Zone example, he gets it from the curved surface.

[Djawed]

I am not going to complain how much i hated the boost anymore since i have accepted sonic unleashed as its own game now. Its okj but was not totally made for me.

So lets just leave that behind.

So i was wondering how everyone else was thinking about the spindash vs boost thing.

What would you rather see implemented in the sequal and why.

My answer is:

Boost destroys sonic game, spindash adds to a sonic game. Why do i think that? I guess comparing sonic adventure games to unleashed is the most apropriate thing to this comparison

Honestly i will never forget my 1st experience with unleashed. I was skeptical but more negative than positive. I just didnt like it. And the boost for me just made it worse.

Now i cant imagine a sonic unleashed without the boost in it, but that is because the whole game is adepted to the move. What actually is a very bad thing. Imagine a scrap brain zone with boost, imagine a windy valley with boost. It would be or dangerous or almost useless cuz every single moment there is an obstacle(no mindless straight forward bullcrap).

Of course a speed highway would work and some more straight forward levels, but i aint the kind of person that likes watching the game play itself like im playing some qte game.

I say leave it for the rush series, Remove it from the main games and bring the spindash back that could also be polished and re invented in a way that it brings variety. Im looking at lava reef where you had to spin to bring yourself up or down on the wheel thing.

ds.bmp

Edited September 1, 2009 by Jaouad