Hey, Paisanos! Guess what Iizuka said today?

[DistantJ]

There it is, folks. Time to grow up and either get used to the different physics or go play something else.

(BTW, you could run on ceilings in the original, but not for very long, he's referring to Sonic Advance 2 styled level design where there are extended periods of ceiling-running allowing for crazier level design.)

Edited November 30, 2010 by DistantJ

[Blacklightning]

There it is, folks. Time to grow up and either get used to the different physics or go play something else.

Listen, I'm all for the "physics don't need changing" argument, but that was terribly immature. People have every right to be critical of the engine if they feel it is flawed, especially when it's made as obvious as the infamous Casino finale. Say what you will about the rest of the game (and honestly I actually feel it works well at speed), but the physics are unacceptably poor at handling low-speed platforming, at the very least. That's not subjective, that's a goddamned fact that even *I* can't spin. If I read you right here, you're essentially suggesting that we either plug our fingers in our ears and take it up the ass (read: same mentality that leads to games like '06) or just abandon the series altogether (read: same mentality that kills franchises - and even if we were to do that, how many other sound-barrier-breaking footrunning games do you know of?). What exactly do you hope to accomplish by doing something like this, and what is so goddamned wrong about noticing flaws and expecting them to be improved on that we should simply stop complaining about it and let Sonic Team slip back into its old habits (ie: hey guys, we found a formula that people like, we'll never need to change or update it again)? There's nothing inherently wrong with being pessimistic or critical about things - in fact, with the way Sonic 4 turned out, we have good reason to be.

(BTW, you could run on ceilings in the original, but not for very long, he's referring to Sonic Advance 2 styled level design where there are extended periods of ceiling-running allowing for crazier level design.)

Actually if I remember right, there was at least one instance in Lava Reef act 2 with an upside-down slope leading to a flat cieling which demonstrated that not only are you more or less unaffected by gravity as long as you're moving in one direction, you can actually accelerate whilst running upside down as if you were on the floor. So theoretically you could run forever on a cieling if level design allowed for it, and I'm pretty sure a quick rom hack could prove it. Hell, I'm convinced a lot of things some modern Sonic games are hated for are still technically possible on the old engines, just that the levels weren't usually designed to exploit them.

[Candescence]

Ladies and gentlemen, Iizuka has proven once again that he is a complete idiot. Nothing more needs to be said.

But, seriously, improvement/update? It's hilarious, considering how utterly broken S4's physics are. Depressingly so.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Masaru Daimon

[Sean]

There it is, folks. Time to grow up and either get used to the different physics or go play something else.

Can't believe you're pulling this all over again just because someone in the dev. team said so.

[Tornado]

I'm pretty sure he meant this:

And it's inverse:

Weren't there some of these in Carnival Night? I recall you would fall off of them if you simply ran, but I could have sworn they still worked like that so long as you were rolling.

He's already done a damn sight more for the series' reputation than derp derp Heroes/Shadow/2006 holy grail Yuji Naka did.

This has already been said, but you do realize that Iizuka was the one in charge of two of those, right?

What kind of PR team tells their staff "hey in interviews you should be totally honest about the game! Tell people bits of it were shit! That'll make it sell just great!".

It actually happens more often than you would think.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Tornado

[eXtaticus]

I personally think that the problem with Sonic 4 is not that it hits the odd physics glitch every now and again, but rather that if felt like it was trying to clone and copy the ideas behind the original titles, and dress them up in slightly less familiar clothing; the result was a sloppy, buggy, badly designed and generally poor mess of a game that felt more like a half-baked sequel to the god-awful Bubsy the Bobcat or Socket than it did a continuation of the greatness of the classics.

To be brutally honest, I honestly believe that physics are amongst the last things that Sonic Team need to be worrying about; until they fix the level design, pacing, homing attack, collision detection and boss mechanics, the game will remain to be the thoroughly unenjoyable trash-heap that it was released as, no matter what they do to the physics.

[Sean]

The game would be 50% more enjoyable to me with better physics, because the way a game plays is vital. But I'd still find Sonic 4 to be a load of shit.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Can't believe you're pulling this all over again just because someone in the dev. team said so.

Well I can't believe it's not butter, and I also can't believe that you're having another go at someone who is defending the game and who is actually posting a reasonable remark for it, but you're allowed to constantly go on about how bad you found it... We get it already.

Anyway.

Iizuka made a gaffe, so bloody what? I don't particually care if he makes a gaffe so long as he keeps delivering the goods, and to be honest he's not done such a bad job at all... Oh look I can see the Sonic 4 bashers already quoting the post... From what I remember seeing, the vast majority of people who downloaded the game seemed to like it, every single person bar one on the official position of TSS seemed to like it. I just don't get why people are making such a big deal, still, about this since the vast majority of stuff people constantly go on about, you have to deliberately do or go looking for.

But take any game and go looking for problems and you'll find them. I'm currently playing Fallout NV and I've recently discovered that if I jump at some rocks from a certain angle, I get locked in a falling annimation and have to re-load. It's not one of the main issues that game has, but the only reason it exists is because I actively went around looking how to do it. Another thing I've noticed is that if I go to some areas and go into third person mode, position the camera to a specific angle I can pick up objects on the other side of walls... which comes in quite handy with some areas. But of course, unless I actively stop and look for that problem, make notes as to how I do it. Would anyone ever discover that?

And lets be honest here, he's not done any gaffes anywhere near as bad as Binky (simon Jeffery) used to give us. Don't forget, this bloke is a games producer, he's probably not good at doing interviews or even wants to do them, I'm not suprised he's not the best at it or makes the odd gaffe or two.

[Vulpine]

It's nice that SEGA will learn from their mistakes once again. Either way, I hope no one complains when Episode 2 arrives.

[Abominal SnowTaz]

It's nice that SEGA will learn from their mistakes once again. Either way, I hope no one complains when Episode 2 arrives.

Trust me man, if it's this bad with EP1, i'm sure EP2 will have similar results....

[Scar]

See the problem with Sonic 4 is, it doesn't know what to be.

I mentioned this back when it first came out.

Its trying to be a modern version of the classics, which just doesn't work.

Regardless of what you think about Sonic Rush's engine, its perfectly suited for pure speed, moreso than the classic engine.

The Classic engine is more suited to a well rounded balance.

So placing the Speed-only engine in a platforming-heavy title like Sonic 4 will more than likely result in part-automation in order to cover up the cracks and really imprecise controls.

Perhaps what this game needs more than anything is to have a clear idea of what it wants to be.

I won't mind if direction it chooses is Rush or Advanced 2 onwards style, likewise I wouldn't mind if it chose the Classic direction.

As long as whatever they do is made to be the best Sonic Rush-type game or the best Classic-style game it can be.

I don't care about what name it has, I just want Sonic the Hedgehog 4; whatever that may mean, to be the best game it can be in whatever feild it chooses.

If the Rush choice means it'll be a black sheep, then so beit, I at least want it to be a good black sheep.

Super Mario Brothers 2 may have been the black sheep of the Mario series, but at least it was a good game to boot.

Best analogy I could think of

Edited November 30, 2010 by Scar

[ChikaBoing]

It's a decent plattformer in the way that the controls works and are responsive,and the levels are varied enough so that it doesn't get dull and samey,so it complies the basics on what makes a game good. However, momentum is something that all plattformers have nowadays that are more about constant moving and not solely based on exploaration,like DKC Returns and Mario Bros. Wii,and inertia controls is what makes gives them longlivety.Something that Sonic 4 lacks. The way that Sonic 4 plays allows it for a fun first playtrough,but not much lasting appeal.You go back to other Sonic games, cause of the feeling of being out-of control but still feeling in-control, which aleast Sonic 4 fulfills the latter. It's kinda like Klonoa, the games level design is good, but the way the game plays is relatively dull, so people don't talk about it anymore.

[libertyernie]

See the problem with Sonic 4 is, it doesn't know what to be.

I mentioned this back when it first came out.

Its trying to be a modern version of the classics, which just doesn't work.

Regardless of what you think about Sonic Rush's engine, its perfectly suited for pure speed, moreso than the classic engine.

The Classic engine is more suited to a well rounded balance.

So placing the Speed-only engine in a platforming-heavy title like Sonic 4 will more than likely result in part-automation in order to cover up the cracks and really imprecise controls.

Perhaps what this game needs more than anything is to have a clear idea of what it wants to be.

I won't mind if direction it chooses is Rush or Advanced 2 onwards style, likewise I wouldn't mind if it chose the Classic direction.

As long as whatever they do is made to be the best Sonic Rush-type game or the best Classic-style game it can be.

I don't care about what name it has, I just want Sonic the Hedgehog 4; whatever that may mean, to be the best game it can be in whatever feild it chooses.

If the Rush choice means it'll be a black sheep, then so beit, I at least want it to be a good black sheep.

Super Mario Brothers 2 may have been the black sheep of the Mario series, but at least it was a good game to boot.

Best analogy I could think of

I totally agree with this. Sonic 4's physics seem horrible when you consider its level design, but really, it's a lot like the engine in Sonic Rush, which plays just fine.

I just find it strange that Sega couldn't just copy the physics from Sonic 3 and use those with Sonic 4's levels. Other people have been doing it for years in their spare time.

[Sean]

Well I can't believe it's not butter, and I also can't believe that you're having another go at someone who is defending the game and who is actually posting a reasonable remark for it, but you're allowed to constantly go on about how bad you found it... We get it already.

Oh lay off. Defending the game is his business, and I'm aware I could've done without the attitude in my last post toward him - but telling people to grow up for making legitimate criticism of a game (especially by saying they should either suck it up or not play it at all) is not a reasonable remark, if I'm even understanding DistantJ's post correctly.

[Tornado]

So, I played a little Sonic 3 while in Economics class today. I wanted to make sure I was right, and this is what I found:

Sonic 3 did this.

And it did this.

So Iizuka basically doesn't know what he is talking about.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Tornado

[Tiller]

So, I played a little Sonic 3 while in Economics class today. I wanted to make sure I was right, and this is what I found:

Sonic 3 did this.

And it did this.

So Iizuka basically doesn't know what he is talking about.

Are you sure? Outside of the Carnival Night wheel gimmick and a one or two pipes in Launch Base I cannot recall an instance where a curve like that exists. I'm genuinely interested in these, because they were never prevalent in the level design of past games.

[Dopply]

I think that as long as Episode II is a good game (and better game than Episode I), we'll be golden. I'm not quite sure what to think of Iizuka anymore; I wish he'd spend more energy making good games and less giving nonsensical interviews.

[Saint Nathan]

Are you sure? Outside of the Carnival Night wheel gimmick and a one or two pipes in Launch Base I cannot recall an instance where a curve like that exists. I'm genuinely interested in these, because they were never prevalent in the level design of past games.

Looking in the wrong spot of Carnival Night.

Notice how some ceilings have curves on them? You can get under the curve, jump up, and then run on the ceiling.

From what I remember seeing, the vast majority of people who downloaded the game seemed to like it, every single person bar one on the official position of TSS seemed to like it. I just don't get why people are making such a big deal, still, about this since the vast majority of stuff people constantly go on about, you have to deliberately do or go looking for.

Liking a game =/= Having no complaints

Sonic 4 has issues with physics. This is not an opinion. Sonic 4's physics are not good for the type of platforming it tries to achieve. You can't get around that fact. You DON'T have to go looking for them, most of them find YOU. The last jump off of the minecart finds you, jumping itself finds you, trying to go slowly at all during the game finds you.

I liked Sonic 4. I was horribly, horribly disappointed in it and I really thought it would be good, and that the issues wouldn't be as large as they looked. But I liked it.

That doesn't make the game perfect at all. I didn't go looking for glitches until I got Super Sonic (which does make the game completely hilarious as you walk around loops). I didn't TRY to make the gameplay as bad as it is. It just is.

[Tornado]

Are you sure? Outside of the Carnival Night wheel gimmick and a one or two pipes in Launch Base I cannot recall an instance where a curve like that exists. I'm genuinely interested in these, because they were never prevalent in the level design of past games.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Tornado

[Marcello]

Super Mario Brothers 2 may have been the black sheep of the Mario series, but at least it was a good game to boot.

Best analogy I could think of

I don't think the analogy is that good.. SMB2 wasn't trying to be the same as SMB (Ignoring that it originally wasn't a Mario game), whereas Sonic 4 was trying to be like the classics.

[Kuzu]

I don't think the analogy is that good.. SMB2 wasn't trying to be the same as SMB (Ignoring that it originally wasn't a Mario game), whereas Sonic 4 was trying to be like the classics.

Not to mention it was hyped as being as good as the Classics.

I can provide a better analogy, thanks to a good friend on youtube.

So I ask my friend Sega to go out and get some ice cream, I ask him can he bring back chocolate ice cream because chocolate is what I like the best. When Sega returns he has the ice cream, but brings back Vanilla instead. At first I'm dissapointed because I didn't get what I wanted, but after trying Vanilla for a while, I ended up liking it, but still wished I got my chocolate Ice Cream.

[Scarecrow]

I don't think the analogy is that good.. SMB2 wasn't trying to be the same as SMB (Ignoring that it originally wasn't a Mario game), whereas Sonic 4 was trying to be like the classics.

It was *like* the 'classics'. It just wasn't the *same* as the 'classics'.

[Tiller]

It sort of works that way. The closest that Sonic 3 comes to is something like this:

Which are all over Carnival Night. And Sonic happily will do angles like that when he is rolling or when he is Super/Hyper Sonic.

Therefore, I'm assuming it would work the same as if it was like this:

However, when he is simply running, this happens:

He can still run along ceilings, but he doesn't really "stick" to them, and he won't follow negative loops when he is running. He just falls off.

Now that is interesting. I didn't recall any of those instances from memory. From what you're saying Sonic needs to hit a certain speed while in his fastest state to stick to the wall, meaning rolling or in super broken mode. But when he's on foot no matter what speed he's going he falls off?

I think I found an area that would prove it:

2m37s

And the inverse is true for going downward:

2m08s

Not sure why youtube's time links don't work with embeds. EDIT: Well now they are XD

I think there are parts of Launch Base act 2 that could test the other way around, but I'm with you speculating that it would work. Interesting that there are so few areas designed where this can even be feasible. If there isn't any real way to test in game I wonder if I could poke around asking if someone could make a hack. Thanks for the clarification!

Edited December 2, 2010 by Tiller

[Tornado]

But when he's on foot no matter what speed he's going he falls off?

I'm not sure. It seems that way, but it might just be because I can't Sonic up to a speed high enough to do it.

I went to the spot in the video just now and took a look. I tried it by running, and it ended up like this:

And I tried rolling, and this happened:

However, just by rolling I was going far faster than when I was running, so I really don't know for sure if it does in fact have to do with running specifically or if it is just a speed thing. If it is just the latter, that basically tosses Ilzuka's entire defense out the window (even more than it already was, at least). And even if it was the former, it shouldn't have been particularly hard to make the same things apply to running.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Tornado

[Phos]

On the subject of running on the ceiling:

Sonic can run on a flat ceiling and will stay there for as long as he has the speed for it. His acceleration and max speed are exactly the same on the ceiling, primarily because the upsidown slope physics are the same as the rightsize up physics, just flipped over.

On the subject of convex surfaces:

The classic games had that capability, a likely incidental capability. It has this capability because it doesn't actually calculate centripetal force, it simply sticks Sonic to the ground above a certain speed if the ground remains unbroken. However, it would sometimes fail. The Genesis is only powerful enough to calculate physics once per frame, causing Sonic to become disconnected from surfaces above certain speeds.

And Carnival Night Zone has convex curves? Even more evidence that he's Mr. Barrel. Oh wait, he'd be "Barrel-San", would he?

Now here's a funny picture so that this post doesn't get buried and ignored like my smart, should-be-argument-ending posts often are: