Tomb Raider - Out 05/03/2013 for X360/PS3/PC

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

... How is paying the same amount of money as American and European players "cheating" Square? It's not specifically Square's fault for game prices there being so fucked up, but they should at least leave them be if they got it early.

 

And why should they leave them be? Square had lost money from those sales. While this whole thing looks good from the consumer side because they saved some cash, it's bad for the business side.

 

 

 

If my assumption is correct, Square still gets some of the money off of these imports because they published the game, so some of the money is going to them in first sales no matter where those sales take place. Even if I did concede that this is factually wrong and thus they're trying to price match, making me pay $30 for a language option is fucking highway robbery.

 

Yes, "some money" not all of it. And those Japanese who bought the western copies will not get the JPN version, because there will be no need to. $30 levels the field, so they pay around the exact amount they would get if they paid for the JPN version. And how is that robbery? The Japanese are not suppose to purchase the western version in the first place anyway!

 

And you guys wonder why Nintendo region-lock their systems. 

Edited April 12, 2013 by Ming Ming Shana

[Nepenthe]

I don't believe a company is always and forever entitled to the street price of a product. If I want a second-hand sale or if I want to import for whatever reason I so choose- even if that reason is something as petty as Japan has a prettier box art-  it's my right as a consumer to do that. To say I'm not entitled to do so and must suck up paying whatever some corporation wants me to pay for everything is ludicrous.

 

And it's highway robbery because $30 is a whole other game. I can get entire games that are just as good, if not better, for the same amount that the language option costs. I could understand gameplay-based DLC to an extent, but a patch that puts in some dialogue that's already been recorded? Fuck that. I'll stumble through a game not knowing what's happening before I part with my money that easily.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

I don't believe a company is always and forever entitled to the street price of a product. If I want a second-hand sale or if I want to import for whatever reason I so choose- even if that reason is something as petty as Japan has a prettier box art-  it's my right as a consumer to do that. To say I'm not entitled to do so and must suck up paying whatever some corporation wants me to pay for everything is ludicrous.

 

And it's highway robbery because $30 is a whole other game. I can get entire games that are just as good, if not better, for the same amount that the language option costs. I could understand gameplay-based DLC to an extent, but a patch that puts in some dialogue that's already been recorded? Fuck that. I'll stumble through a game not knowing what's happening before I part with my money that easily.

 

Then don't buy the game if you don't think it's worth your money. Or wait until a sale comes by.

 

You own a small business in Japan, you release the game worldwide with no region-locking. If you have very little sales coming in from Japan, however many sales are coming from the west you'll be wondering why (and the Japanese love the game).

 

$30 is not a whole other game in Japan. Unless you buy a year old game.

 

I'm not saying what they are doing is the "right way" to do it, but if they want to keep their business afloat they have to act. They can't leave it the way it was, otherwise the Japanese will just continue to purchase the western version.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Ming Ming Shana

[Sami]

Selling their game at the price that they're already selling their game is not going to bankrupt the company. Chill out a bit.

[Tornado]

Square-Enix is a small business?

[Nepenthe]

Then don't buy the game if you don't think it's worth your money. Or wait until a sale comes by.

 

You own a small business in Japan, you release the game worldwide with no region-locking. If you have very little sales coming in from Japan, however many sales are coming from the west you'll be wondering why (and the Japanese love the game).

 

$30 is not a whole other game in Japan. Unless you buy a year old game.

 

I'm not saying what they are doing is the "right way" to do it, but if they want to keep their business afloat they have to act. They can't leave it the way it was, otherwise the Japanese will just continue to purchase the western version.

 

No, I will buy a game I want at the cheapest price available to me if I believe it is overpriced in other avenues, even if one of those avenues is directly from the corporation itself. If that means importing, so be it. To say I cannot import, buy second-hand, or hell, play a friend's copy (they certainly won't be getting any money from that) is anti-consumer, plain and simple. 

 

Also as a consumer, the party actually being serviced here, I have no social or legal responsibility to coddle and protect a video game corporation handling thousands of times more money than I'll ever see in my lifetime if I don't agree with their business practices. Square is not in any danger going to go under from this, either. Even if they were, again, I have no legal or social responsibility to prop them up by buying a $30 language pack anyway. You can give them your money like that if you want to. But I don't, and I will not, nor should any Japanese players who don't feel like doing so.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

Selling their game at the price that they're already selling their game is not going to bankrupt the company. Chill out a bit.

 

I'm not angry or anything, but I understand why Square acted on this.

 

They are releasing the game in Japan. Publishing the game in Japan is way more expensive, and they need sales over there to get the money back. How can they get the money back if the Japanese import the game from the west?

 

Square-Enix is a small business?

 

No, but they are declining.

No, I will buy a game I want at the cheapest price available to me if I believe it is overpriced in other avenues, even if one of those avenues is directly from the corporation itself. If that means importing, so be it. To say I cannot import, buy second-hand, or hell, play a friend's copy (they certainly won't be getting any money from that) is anti-consumer, plain and simple.

It's anti-consumer, but what you're doing in the first place is cheating the company and their developers. This is why DRM exists.

 

Also as a consumer, the party actually being serviced here, I have no social or legal responsibility to coddle and protect a video game corporation handling thousands of times more money than I'll ever see in my lifetime if I don't agree with their business practices. Square is not in any danger going to go under from this, either. Even if they were, again, I have no legal or social responsibility to prop them up by buying a $30 language pack anyway. You can give them your money like that if you want to. But I don't, and I will not, nor should any Japanese players who don't feel like doing so.

The Japanese probably won't play the game anymore unless they pay for the $30 pack. The Japanese who haven't got the game yet will now stop importing because of the $30 DLC pack.

If the Japanese don't want to pay for the $30 pack, fine. Who's forcing them too? Square can't force you, you still have the game functioning well. However, the copy they have now is gonna be useless unless they know English.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Ming Ming Shana

[Nepenthe]

If they can't get the money back off of Tomb Raider because of this, then they massively fucked up somewhere in the plans, plain and simple. Mass media businesses do that sometimes, and it's not the public's responsibility to protect them from fuck ups either.

[Tornado]

Well, unless the government bails them out.

 

 

I'm not angry or anything, but I understand why Square acted on this.

 

They are releasing the game in Japan. Publishing the game in Japan is way more expensive, and they need sales over there to get the money back. How can they get the money back if the Japanese import the game from the west?

 

For starters, they could have kept themselves from overselling the game so badly that it was one of the best selling launches of the past 12 months and it still was a financial disaster.

[Nepenthe]

Well, unless the government bails them out.

 

Very true. But how many companies have crashed and burned lately? And wasn't the '89 crash nearly or completely publicly unaided? Yeah, pretty sure the gov at this point is like:

 

 

No, but they are declining.It's anti-consumer, but what you're doing in the first place is cheating the company and their developers. This is why DRM exists.

 

It's ironic to the point of being amusing that you complain about the consumer "cheating" companies by using completely legal avenues for buying and attaining games, then victim-blame the consumer for being entirely at fault for DRM, instead of the short-sighted and/or potentially greedy companies for actually having the gall to implement it and thus "cheating" out people who are not performing any legal wrongdoing. At what point is the company at moral fault? Or are we all just supposed to take whatever prices they throw at us up the ass and be happy for it?

 

If the Japanese don't want to pay for the $30 pack, fine. Who's forcing them too? Square can't force you, you still have the game functioning well. However, the copy they have now is gonna be useless unless they know English.

 

The game isn't useless unless it's unplayable, and the language option doesn't prevent it from being so. If Japanese gamers who aren't fluent enough in English to have an easy time with the game want to know more about what's going on, they have the Internet at their disposal.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

If they can't get the money back off of Tomb Raider because of this, then they massively fucked up somewhere in the plans, plain and simple. Mass media businesses do that sometimes, and it's not the public's responsibility to protect them from fuck ups either.

 

So I don't understand. You think it's okay for a company to leave the way things were, let the Japanese import, lose money while you're planning to launch the same game in Japan? When there is a solution?

 

For starters, they could have kept themselves from overselling the game so badly that it was one of the best selling launches of the past 12 months and it still was a financial disaster.

 

And it's not helping them *at all* if the Japanese continue to import. That's why I understand what Square did.

[Komodin]

 

I'm not angry or anything, but I understand why Square acted on this.

 

They are releasing the game in Japan. Publishing the game in Japan is way more expensive, and they need sales over there to get the money back. How can they get the money back if the Japanese import the game from the west?\

 

This is assuming that a majority of the Japanese sales will be from imports -- a situation that is, realistically speaking, highly unlikely.

[tenchibr]

It's obvious that the $30 is Squeenix raising their middle finger to their Japanese fanbase.

 

I think the general consensus is perhaps that language support DLC can have some kind of charge in it, but $30 is ludicrous.

 

I say MAYBE, MAYBE $10, but ideally, it should cost $5. I would definitely pay $5-$10 to play the game in Portuguese if I didn't speak English fluently.

[Tornado]

 

Very true. But how many companies have crashed and burned lately? And wasn't the '89 crash nearly or completely publicly unaided? Yeah, pretty sure the gov at this point is like:

 

 

You mean the Japanese housing market imploding in 1991? Nah. Japanese government has constantly been bailing out companies that got screwed by that all the way up to when the US housing market collapsed in 2008. It's the downside to when your parent company has fingers in more pies than a bakery, as many Japanese companies did and continue to do.

 

 

 

 And it's not helping them *at all* if the Japanese continue to import.

Except it is, because those copies bought in the United States (usually) or Europe (somewhat less frequently) are still being bought from SquareEnix. Importing a game to get around the purposely inflated new game costs in Japan ≠ stealing the game.

[Nepenthe]

You mean the Japanese housing market imploding in 1991? 

 

No, I meant the video game crash of 89. xP Did any governmental entity step in or did they watch the fireworks with the rest of us?

[Tornado]

You mean the '83 Crash that gutted Atari? I don't think the market did crash in 1989.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

Except it is, because those copies bought in the United States (usually) or Europe (somewhat less frequently) are still being bought from SquareEnix. Importing a game to get around the purposely inflated new game costs in Japan ≠ stealing the game.

 

But you don't understand that they are still losing money. It's hurting them, especially when they are planning to sell the game in Japan.

[Nepenthe]

I understand Square lost money. What I and I assume others don't understand is why the Japanese should be guilt-tripped into buying it or told to abandon their legal rights as consumers simply because they've lost money.

[Komodin]

But you don't understand that they are still losing money. It's hurting them, especially when they are planning to sell the game in Japan.

 

If they're in such a deep mire that the probability of what will almost certainly be a minority of Japanese sales being imports will impact them that badly, then it's clear that something's gotta be changed.

[Tornado]

But you don't understand that they are still losing money. It's hurting them, especially when they are planning to sell the game in Japan.

 

They're losing money because they oversold the financial significance of the game; probably in response to the game's budget going out of control in development. They aren't losing money because they aren't charging quite as much money on the small amount of Japanese players who they are trying to sell the game to.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

I understand Square lost money. What I and I assume others don't understand is why the Japanese should be guilt-tripped into buying it or told to abandon their legal rights as consumers simply because they've lost money.

 

All I can say is that, Square felt cheated. And I heard it was a mistake it wasn't intentional in the first place, so they patched it up to remove that mistake.

 

If they're in such a deep mire that the probability of what will almost certainly be a minority of Japanese sales being imports will impact them that badly, then it's clear that something's gotta be changed.

 

They are already in a financial state with this game, they don't want it worse. And it can be worse if more people found out that Tomb Raider is cheaper to import, especially from Steam.

 

They're losing money because they oversold the financial significance of the game; probably in response to the game's budget going out of control in development. They aren't losing money because they aren't charging quite as much money on the small amount of Japanese players who they are trying to sell the game to.

 

...they are still losing money from the imports. Whether it is small compared to the overselling. They can't undo the development and cut down the budget, but what they can do is undo the current things that are still possible. Removing the JPN audio/subtitles is one of them.

[Nepenthe]

You're still not justifying why Japanese gamers should be obligated on any grounds to buy this patch, nor why Square is entitled to every theoretical dollar on every copy of Tomb Raider that exists.

[Tornado]

No they're not. They aren't losing a damned cent if someone buys a game in America and has it shipped to Japan because they are still making a sale in America. Stop talking like a marketing yesman for just a second and realize that "we only made $20 on this copy of the game instead of $40" is not the same thing as "we lost $20 on this copy of the game"; which at least is something that could garner some sympathy for the publisher. Squeenix's financial arrears for the past half a decade are entirely their fault; and no amount of "gamers are cheating them by looking for the best deals now that that is an option for them after decades of taking it up the ass compared to gamers from other regions" is going to change that fact.

 

 

 

 

And to comment on something else:

 

And you guys wonder why Nintendo region-lock their systems.

 

No one wonders why Nintendo, or any other company for that matter, perform blatantly anti-consumer business practices like region locking or intrusive DRM schemes in an increasingly worldwide economy. Just like no one wondered why Nintendo did half of the pretty damn close to illegal shit they did in the 1980s when they could get away with it. What people actually wonder is why others line up to defend those practices and treat the poor little international companies as the victims because the mean old consumers want value for money.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

No they're not. They aren't losing a damned cent if someone buys a game in America and has it shipped to Japan because they are still making a sale in America.

 

And it's a loss sale in Japan. And that's what Square doesn't like. It effects the sales in Japan. That gamer would have bought that game in Japan, instead of a western copy IF there were no Japanese language/subtitles.

 

Stop talking like a marketing yesman for just a second and realize that "we only made $20 on this copy of the game instead of $40" is not the same thing as "we lost $20 on this copy of the game"; which at least is something that could garner some sympathy for the publisher. Squeenix's financial arrears for the past half a decade are entirely their fault; and no amount of "gamers are cheating them by looking for the best deals now that that is an option for them after decades of taking it up the ass compared to gamers from other regions" is going to change that fact.

 

I am not talking like a marketing yesman. I am simply looking at Square's point of view on why they are doing this. I don't believe it's evil what they are doing, they are just closing a leaky hole that the Japanese have been exploiting. As I said, it was never intentional to have JPN stuff in the western versions of the game. It was a mistake, and they have fixed that mistake. Now the Japanese will get the JPN version of the game instead of importing it. I understand if this game isn't coming to Japan, but it is.

 

 

What people actually wonder is why others line up to defend those practices and treat the poor little international companies as the victims because the mean old consumers want value for money.

 

But why do they import. Why, especially if the game is coming to your country in a couple of days - 1 month. Again I understand if the game is never coming to your country, or you prefer a different language. But consumers (especially those who imported this game) love to find shortcuts and that's what bothers most companies. 

 

Yes, companies can be evil and Square are evil too. But I don't think so in this case.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Ming Ming Shana

[Nepenthe]

If consumers are finding "shortcuts", e.g., perfectly legal avenues to attain the products they want more efficiently and cheaply than what the corporation is offering, then corporations should adapt to the way products or being bought and sold instead of trying to undermine that with "solutions" like a ridiculously overpriced patch for a language option. As I keep repeating and you keep ignoring, consumers are not responsible for the mistakes of a company. They are not obligated to buy into it, nor are they obligated to keep silent when they feel a deal is a rip-off.