The Derailment of Knuckles the Echidna

[sjmaster92]

Isn't Sonic already the playful, chuckling one? It'd be boring to have two of the same character, and that was back when no one's character was really established yet. Knuckles was made serious, to contrast with Sonic's playful nature in later games.......Then Sonic X/Sonic Advance 2 came around.

But if Knuckles was serious, we'd have another Shadow/Shade and that would be even more boring IMO.

Edited December 14, 2010 by sjmaster92

[Sega DogTagz]

Shadow has yet to say a good or nice thing about Sonic, and concstantly looks down on him and his personality.

06 and Colors DS say hi.

[azoo]

Haven't really seen Cow and Chicken but I'm willing to bet its actually an 'Ouran High School Host Club' reference! Me and the missus thought Kasanoda was a dead-ringer for a humanised knuckles, appearance and personality wise. (google image search it) All the poor guy wants to do is play "kick-the-can"...

Ding ding ding! That's exactly what it came from; in fact it's a direct quote!

Also, I'd personally like to see Knuckles' "troublemaker" attitude come back as well as a personality like he was in the OVA. A bit brash, but helpful, insightful, wise and clever. Treasure hunting and cowboy hats are also pretty awesome for Knuckles to have.

And since I was first squeamish to bring up my idea about what should happen to the M.E. (being the last time that happened I got a whole lecture about how he must protect it)... I'd personally love it if he just pulled an SA2 and shrunk it to pocket size, and then placed it in hammer-space, carrying it everywhere he goes. Angel Island is down? Well who cares, especially since if the island is down that means no one can get to the Hidden Palace that's underground, so the Super Emeralds aren't threatened either.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Azukara

[Semi-colon e]

I don't really care much about the Master Emerald shit so I'm gonna skip right to the point which has been mentioned already:

Why is Knuckles such a fucking retard now? In SA1 and SA2 he was fairly wise and responsible and whatnot, and he was cool. Heroes he was just Sonic v2, but when you have Rush, 06 etc making him into a complete idiot, it's just like... why? He was gullible, not completely retarded ._.

That and Knuckles is a bit more of a main character as batson said, though at the same time he doesn't have to appear and it works fine when he doesn't. They've finally started to re-route Tails, so hopefully Knuckles will be next.

[Kuzu]

But if Knuckles was serious, we'd have another Shadow/Shade and that would be even more boring IMO.

...he should be Calm, not Shadow levels of Stoic, but enough where he's more of a straight man to Sonic's cockiness.

You sir need to look at the previous post to understand the topic, I said this quote one page ago.

Knuckles stoped competing with Sonic when Shadow came out and just became like a second best friend to him.

As for the topic, I like to see Knuckles grow outside of Sonic for once and be his own man, maybe a rival to Rouge or Omega and overall Sonic's confidant when things are to heavy for Sonci to handle alone.

Is Sonic not allowed to have more than one rival, and yeah there's Colors(DS), and 06 which both have Shadow saving Sonic, and at least helping him out. So yeah he may look down on him, but he has no problem helping him out. And what do you mean Sonic & Knuckles don't compete anymore? Rivals, Secret Rings, and Black Knight all have him get into a scuffle with Knux.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Shadic93

[Rusty Spy]

I'd personally love it if he just pulled an SA2 and shrunk it to pocket size, and then placed it in hammer-space, carrying it everywhere he goes. Angel Island is down? Well who cares, especially since if the island is down that means no one can get to the Hidden Palace that's underground, so the Super Emeralds aren't threatened either.

[Kuzu]

I personally hated that little (literal)asspull they did in SA2, but to be more logical, what sense would THAT make? Rather than leave the emerald on a floating island several miles in the sky in the middle of the ocean he should just carry it with him, not only increasing the chances of the M.E being an even MORE immediate target by the villiains, but also leaving his home completely unguarded?

[Nepenthe]

People keep using that hypothetical: "Well, someone may want to steal the Master Emerald," but without this scenario having any actual bearing on the current goings-on of the storyline, it's as relevant to the situation as what type of kibble my dog eats. Seriously, we're not talking about the real world. This is a fictional narrative, a completely controlled environment, a linear entity in which every single thought, action, and event are completely controlled by a set group of real-life people.

And frankly, that set group of people have deemed the Master Emerald completely unnecessary to the stability of the universe in this day and age. Most villains that appear nowadays don't display any amount of intrigue in it anymore because we've got the Chaos Emeralds which are doing a fine job as the token MacGuffins, Knuckles leaves the Master Emerald himself, presumably in the knowledge that it's safe for whatever reason and no one in the universe really questions it, (because seriously, it's on a floating island that travels randomly around the barren sea and is itself filled with deadly traps; C'mon people, it's not like everyone can walk up and take it), so thus its worth has been reestablished within the universe itself-- It doesn't matter much.

I'm with BL, the Master Emerald is doing nothing but chaining Knuckles down to a one-trick pony that has has no personal motivations no even any real interesting opportunities for character development because of his archaic and undying loyalty to that annoying, unwanted rock, which means his appearances and subsequently the plots must be bogged down by that thing's involvement because of some "principle." It's just so unpalatable to me. I'd rather they just do and ShtH or something and put that thing out of its misery.

[Diogenes]

Enough of this fucking Master Emerald business.

[Kuzu]

Ya know I wouldn't care about the Heroes or 06 deal if they had him contributing to the plot, ya know going to kick Eggman's ass rather than wait for Sonic to team up with. And in ShTH he had a pretty legitimate reason. Aliens were invading, I think that's more than a justified reason to abandon his duty for a while.

With that said, I hope the next game has Knuckles(As well as everyone else that needs it) is back to being the character that made me love him in the first place.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Isn't Sonic already the playful, chuckling one? It'd be boring to have two of the same character, and that was back when no one's character was really established yet. Knuckles was made serious, to contrast with Sonic's playful nature in later games.......Then Sonic X/Sonic Advance 2 came around.

Not really. Knuckles was the one doing most of the chuckling in the Classics, but it was just for S3&K.

If anything it's more to show Knuckles' trickster side by annoying Sonic throughout the game. Once SA1 came into the fray, he was more of the hot-headed "rival" to Sonic.

Perhaps slightly of topic but i'll just say this; the Sonic fanbase is the only fanbase i know of where a rather large part of it seems to be against the very notion that some characters should count more as main characters than others.

It's also against the notion that some characters shouldn't be minor characters when they get just as much attention as the other main ones, or even the notion that you don't need every main character.

But like other fandoms, it always sees a need to put a value on characters based on the criteria "I like him" or "I don't like him".

in the Sonic fanbase, whenever someone mentions that Knuckles should show up more often, a whole bunch of people will always go "but why should Knuckles be allowed to show up more often than, say, Cream or Espio or Big?".

Because there are those of us who would like to see minor characters get a chance to shine. The more major roles a character gets, the more it would be expected that they get the job done, so what's wrong with giving minor characters a chance to show their potential colors?

Well, as far as I am concerned, on account of being (or, rather, having been) a main character in the series, Knuckles should indeed be granted appearances more frequently and more prominently than minor characters like the aforementioned. And for the love of God, dont ask me legitimize why he should be seen as a main character to begin with. He has been there since two years after the begining, he had a very major role in two of the four games that to this day defines the Sonic series in the eyes of the gaming community, he has been featured in other media more frequently and prominently than any other Sonic character sans Sonic, Eggman and Tails, he had his own self-titled comic book, he had his own game, he used to appear in far more games than any other character sans Sonic, Eggman and Tails, he is far more well known than any other Sonic character except those three, and he is pretty much the only character except those three that most people outside the hardcore fanbase even gives a rats ass about.

I'm pretty sure Shadow and Amy are just as equally known in and outside the fanbase, with Amy predating Knuckles.

And while Shadow came in ten years later, like Knuckles he's had very major roles, has been featured in just as much other media, had his own game, had his own arc in a comic book (although granted, that's not the same as getting an aptly named comic), is far more well known than any other character (and by a very small margin even surpasses the popularity of some of the Classic cast at times), and is one of the characters that people outside of the hardcore fandom care about as well. And yet, despite this growing reputation he receives to this day, a lot still think he should be relegated to "minor" character status. That absolutely reeks of hypocrisy.

And to add to that hypocrisy, people associate Metal Sonic as a main character despite having a major role in only TWO games. Meanwhile Shadow has outdone him so many times as a villian, doppleganger, and as his own character that even in his worst moments he has shown more than Metal currently has. Now really, if we're going by what you said, who deserves more here? Metal or Shadow? Heck freaking AMY, the character he kidnapped in his debut, has done more than Metal. And I'd almost have the balls to say Blaze has outdone him as a character as well.

People can hate a character as much as they want, but as long as I'm around I'm not tolerating any hypocritical logic. You can argue as much as you want about it.

Yeah, because that's what held him back in Heroes, ShtH, '06, and the Riders games. Yeah, if these games had just completely ignored his duties, I'm sure they would've done spectacular work at developing Knuckles as a character.

I wouldn't put ShTH on that list. I mean there was and alien invasion going on at the time, and it's safe to assume they were on every part of the earth fighting the population. So the Floating Island could've been affected as well.

Also, they did throw in every other character in that game, except for Blaze and Big. So we could let Knuckles' appearance slide for that game in particular regardless.

Edited December 15, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Once again Logic beats nostalgia.

Anybody can be a main character, it all depends on their influence on the plot, and how much their connected to it. This can range from Sonic to the Babylon Rogues, whom while only reserved for a spin offs, Are clearly the main characters behind the triple threat, and yes spinoffs count too.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Once again Logic beats nostalgia.

Don't get carried away by that saying. Logic only beats nostalgia when nostalgia is used as a substitute for logic...if that makes sense to anyone.

Anybody can be a main character, it all depends on their influence on the plot, and how much their connected to it. This can range from Sonic to the Babylon Rogues, whom while only reserved for a spin offs, Are clearly the main characters behind the triple threat, and yes spinoffs count too.

I'd say the only reason Spin-offs don't count is because they fanbase doesn't put too much attention on them. They get acknowledged from time to time, but because of their status as spin-offs, they aren't always going to be held by the same boundaries that the more mainstream titles do.

Also...

As far as I'm concerned, Shadow is the new Knuckles in terms of being Sonic's anti thesis and arch nemesis. Shadow has yet to say a good or nice thing about Sonic, and concstantly looks down on him and his personality.

Do you think you could stop being a fanboy over Shadow? I have my favorites, but they don't trump the ones that aren't my favorites.

Although, assuming you're who I think you are, that may be asking for too much.

Edited December 15, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Blacklightning]

Maybe this is because his life's duty, a major part of his character, has seemingly been thrown to the wayside so he can go ride hoverboards and be Eggman's delivery boy. I wouldn't have a problem with him going off and doing other things if, from time to time, they actually acknowledged that he isn't some unchained free spirit wanderer like Sonic.

The fact that he isn't simply limits most of what he can do in the story, which is kind of my whole point. Bad writing aside, the only other reason his appearances seem lazy is because they haven't retconned the damn thing yet like they should've by now.

No, I would say that almost no one acts this way.

Sure fooled me.

1. Return focus to his duties.

At the very least there would need to be an acknowledgement to the Master Emerald and/or the Island and what he's doing around and off the island to ensure its safety.

Knuckles should focus on his duties to protect the Master Emerald

I personally think we should see a story that would actually require his presence, kind of like the Adventure and Rivals series, he's there because the Master Emerald is in danger, we need more of that,

And mind you, that was just the first page of this very thread alone. Okay yeah, I exaggerated a bit, but all the same, the fact that people feel Knux's appearances are shoehorned just for the sake of lack of M.E involvement (y'know, as opposed to bad writing) is just silly.

Yeah, because that's what held him back in Heroes, ShtH, '06, and the Riders games.

All four of those examples had bad writing in general, and the ME wouldn't have changed much, if anything. Even you must be aware of that.

Knuckles sucks for the same reason everyone sucks/sucked; the writing for most of the last decade was balls. If the series can keep hold of some decent writers, ones who can actually respect a character's history, there's no reason Knuckles can't become a great and interesting character.

And even if they did, the ME plotline would still seem like an amazingly dated and stale gimmick that Knux should've moved on from by now. I don't mean to imply that they should continue ignoring the damn thing like they are now, I mean as in actually giving it some closure, mind you, so they have a proper reason to stop revolving most of his character around it. I definently agree the writing sucks, but making everything Knux does an excuse plot doesn't really help matters. Edited December 15, 2010 by Blacklightning

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Okay yeah, I exaggerated a bit, but all the same, the fact that people feel Knux's appearances are shoehorned just for the sake of lack of M.E involvement (y'know, as opposed to bad writing) is just silly.

Well they kind of go hand in hand the way I see it.

The real offenders here being Heroes and Sonic 06 in terms of Knuckles involvement both had bad writing, and seeing how obvious that is it, picking that certain flaw as one of the focuses for the topic serve to highlight the most noticable problem about his involvments.

All four of those examples had bad writing in general, and the ME wouldn't have changed much, if anything. Even you must be aware of that.

Actually, I'd argue that the ME or the Floating Island would've kept any and all attention he's been getting off of Knuckles at least and there would hardly be anything to criticize about his character, if any at all.

The bad writing would still be there, but there wouldn't be any flaw you could put solely on Knux. He'd be completely off the radar.

And even if they did, the ME plotline would still seem like an amazingly dated and stale gimmick that Knux should've moved on from by now. I don't mean to imply that they should continue ignoring the damn thing like they are now, I mean as in actually giving it some closure, mind you, so they have a proper reason to stop revolving most of his character around it. I definently agree the writing sucks, but making everything Knux does an excuse plot doesn't really help matters.

There's more that can be done with Knuckles than just the ME.

Knuckles is definitely a hot-head, so we could play off that by having him attacked on his island only to try to chase down what attacked him off his island to the point where he's focused on petty revenge than his duties. It doesn't mention the M.E. nor does it involve it, but we know what he was doing prior to leaving his island by assuming he was guarding the Island by default and with it the ME.

I mean really, give me the time and I might come up with ten different ways he can get involved without any derailment of his character.

Edited December 15, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[batson]

Once again Logic beats nostalgia.

The idea that no character should be considered more important than any other is hardly logic, it's opinion as much as anything else.

[Blacklightning]

The real offenders here being Heroes and Sonic 06 in terms of Knuckles involvement both had bad writing, and seeing how obvious that is it picking that flaw as one of the focuses for the topic serve to highlight the most noticable problem about his involvments.

Which is exactly why I support giving proper closure to the ME arc entirely so they have decent reason to disregard it.

Actually, I'd argue that the ME would've kept any and all attention he's been getting off of Knuckles at least and there would hardly be anything to criticize about his character, if any at all.

I'm sorry, is that actually fixing his character, or just making a critisism decoy? That's kind of a half-assed way to get fans off your back, don't you think? If it were up to me, I'd do anything other than "give Sonic a message from his sworn enemy and do whatever he's doing for the rest of the game" and it'd still be an actual improvement. The thing about ME storylines is that whenever Knux shows up, the instant first thought anyone has is "Where is the ME?", and most of the plotline regarding it is instantly spoiled. You know, in much the same way you know a Super form is coming somewhere down the line if Chaos Emeralds are involved. And I simply can't imagine how badly Sonic '06 could've bungled that if the ME were involved.

There's more that can be done with Knuckles than just the ME.

That's umm, exactly my point isn't it?

[azoo]

I personally hated that little (literal)asspull they did in SA2, but to be more logical, what sense would THAT make? Rather than leave the emerald on a floating island several miles in the sky in the middle of the ocean he should just carry it with him, not only increasing the chances of the M.E being an even MORE immediate target by the villiains, but also leaving his home completely unguarded?

(1) Angel Island is on the ocean surface because the lack of the Master Emerald. Don't see what's wrong with that.

(2) Nobody could take the emerald because Knuckles has got it on himself at all times. No one can touch Knuckles because he's just plain amazing at combat and self-defense like that. Freaking Batman levels. He's a warrior, son.

(3) Super Emeralds aren't threatened. They are in the Hidden Palace. Hidden Palace is "underground" inside the ground mass of the island. That would be underwater when put into the ocean.

(4) Why would anyone try to randomly attack Angel Island? I mean it's not like anything valuable would be on the surface.

(5) Knuckles could go wherever he likes without worrying about where it's at, since he sorta teleports it into hammer-space-land anyways (thank God for cartoon logic). Knuckles can now adventure, do treasure hunting and go play kick the can with fellas.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Azukara

[Kuzu]

Knuckles having a hammer space the emerald is stupid, because it would be a walking Dues Ex Machina, because its already more powerful than the chaos emeralds, and therefore make their appearances moot. It would be one plot coupon for the price of seven. By keeping the M.E. on Angel Island it presents a danger, if the M.E. is removed the island falls. And why wouldn't anyone attack Angel Island? Its a floating continent, with a powerful gem making it float, sounds plausible to me.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm sorry, is that actually fixing his character, or just making a critisism decoy?

Edited December 15, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Badnik Zero]

But story is really secondary to character appearance. Why is Shadow here again? Who cares, people want to see him. LOOK ALIENS!

My point is, you can go LOOK ALIENS with any character. People love Knuckles (and that's the reason he appears over other characters) so he's gonna appear.

So sometimes he's gonna be part of the triple threat, and sometimes he's got his tribal duties. The plot is asking us not to worry about it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But story is really secondary to character appearance.

[Kuzu]

^^True. At the end of the day, we all wanna play as Knuckles again.

Which brings us to the next subject, gamplay. How would Knuckles play in a full on 3D game?

[Diogenes]

The fact that he isn't simply limits most of what he can do in the story, which is kind of my whole point.

[Aquaslash]

^^True. At the end of the day, we all wanna play as Knuckles again.

Which brings us to the next subject, gamplay. How would Knuckles play in a full on 3D game?

Edited December 15, 2010 by Aquaslash