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The Derailment of Knuckles the Echidna


Kuzu

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^^True. At the end of the day, we all wanna play as Knuckles again.

Which brings us to the next subject, gamplay. How would Knuckles play in a full on 3D game?

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For all the hate the werehog got, I can't imagine even for a moment that it'd somehow be okay if we just slapped Knuckles' face on it (and I routinely defend the werehog). I can go with more combat focus than the rest of the cast, and a few combo attacks to go with it, but going full werehog would be a mistake.

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For all the hate the werehog got, I can't imagine even for a moment that it'd somehow be okay if we just slapped Knuckles' face on it (and I routinely defend the werehog). I can go with more combat focus than the rest of the cast, and a few combo attacks to go with it, but going full werehog would be a mistake.

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For all the hate the werehog got, I can't imagine even for a moment that it'd somehow be okay if we just slapped Knuckles' face on it (and I routinely defend the werehog). I can go with more combat focus than the rest of the cast, and a few combo attacks to go with it, but going full werehog would be a mistake.

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So why would this hated gameplay style work with Knuckles' face, when treasure hunting didn't?

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There's nothing wrong with a character that isn't available for or capable of handling any situation at any time. Characters are defined just as much by their limitations as their abilities.
You mean being gullible and arrogant isn't enough to work with?

They're lazy whether or not the emerald is in the picture, unless you think relegating him to just The Strong Guy of Team Sonic is some brilliant piece of work.
I can't remember suggesting he should be - in fact, I would rather he go beyond that.

And that's the point; it's not a choice between him being glued to the emerald for eternity or him completely abandoning the rock. He can still go out and get involved in things, even things that have absolutely nothing to do with the emerald, the island, or the echidnas, but they should acknowledge that he is the guardian of the Master Emerald and Angel Island, too. I mean, would you insist they abandon Sonic's love of freedom and adventure, Tails' mechanical aptitude, Amy's crush on Sonic?
"Love of freedom and adventure" is so bloody vauge it could be literally be anything. Tails and his gadgets are versatile and varied, to the extent that he's usually able to use something completely different every game and not cop flak for it (well, aside from dummy rings, but that's more of a gameplay-based complaint). Even lovesick Amy can take on a number of different forms and schemes and is flexible enough to weave into a story without being seen as an excuse plot.

The ME on the other hand, consists of either:

- JOO TAEK MAH EMMOROLD

- Oh no, someone smashed the ME, I'll just go on a tedious and repetitive treasure hunt to put it back together again

- I left a scarecrow in front of it so I could do something else

- What ME?

Suffice to say, the choices are predictable and unappealing. Literally all of it has been done before.

Or it's both. The writing is shitty no matter what, but that they consistently ignore a major aspect of a character isn't helping.
If it's for the better (or as you state below, if it doesn't make a difference), then I don't see any reason to cry for it. I know nobody was crying for Shadow once he finally got over that ridiculous "dark, forgotten past" gimmick he seemed to be all about until the very end of ShTH.

You're right, the ME wouldn't change anything. It being in the story or not wouldn't change anything. And Knuckles being the guardian of it or not wouldn't change anything. Knuckles has been shitty because of plain old shitty writing, not because he's still the emerald guardian and that's somehow prevented the writers from writing anything half decent with him.
So what are you even arguing then? That we repeatedly bring up the same plot points over and over again in spite of the fact that it doesn't improve anything?
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(1) Angel Island is on the ocean surface because the lack of the Master Emerald. Don't see what's wrong with that.

As opposed to, ya know, MILES IN THE SKY? And the fact that his HOME IS IN IMMEDIATE WALKING (or boat ride) AWAY FROM ANYONE WHO WANTED TO WALTZ RIGHT IN AND TAKE THE ISLAND THEMSELVES.

(2) Nobody could take the emerald because Knuckles has got it on himself at all times. No one can touch Knuckles because he's just plain amazing at combat and self-defense like that. Freaking Batman levels. He's a warrior, son.

But the very FACT that he has the MASTER EMERALD, the controller of all the 7 Chaos Emeralds, the one thing in the UNIVERSE more powerful the than emeralds themselves, and it's right inside that guys pocket. Knuckles might as well just GIVE them the emerald; he's making their job so easy enough.

(3) Super Emeralds aren't threatened. They are in the Hidden Palace. Hidden Palace is "underground" inside the ground mass of the island. That would be underwater when put into the ocean.

Super Emeralds? You mean those things that we haven't seen or heard from since S3&K and will never hear from ever again? And again, how is this MORE secure than it being several miles above the ocean?

In SA1, Tails had to prepare his plane and everything to get onto the Egg Carrier. After they take it down you can take a wooden sail boat to the thing whenever you damn well please. By your logic, Eggman was wasting his time giving the fortress flying capabilities, no one would EVER be able to infiltrate it if it were on the ocean.

(5) Knuckles could go wherever he likes without worrying about where it's at, since he sorta teleports it into hammer-space-land anyways (thank God for cartoon logic). Knuckles can now adventure, do treasure hunting and go play kick the can with fellas. tongue.gif

I still don't see what was stopping him from doing that shit with it perfectly secure on a giant floating continent in the sky.

How would Knuckles play in a full on 3D game?

I like what they did in Heroes. It's simple, it's effective, and it was fun. And you can do lots more with a little creativity.

If we were to add the elemental shields into the mix, that level 3 eruption combo could be an extra combo he can perform whenever he has the Fire shield, you can create an Ice shield and give him the ability to freeze enemies by punching them, then be able to pick 2 up, the same way he could pick up Sonic and Tails on his fists, and throw them at other enemies, the Eelectric shield could...... let him shoot projectiles at enemies........ the Bubble shield replace his mid-air action with Big/Vectors body slam attack, you can make an Air shield and give him the triangle jump for updrafts.

And that's just thinking with power-ups.

EDIT:

I think he should just get the Chaotix on the job, but since we never get hints of what the Emerald is doing while Knuckles is out, we'll leave that idea. Now the question is if Knuckles really neglects his duties. In many media Knuckles is interpreted as being slightly resentful of Sonic's freedom. While Sonic runs around without a care, Knuckles is chained to duty. Sonic treats everything like a game. Now Knuckles is one of the regular crew, participating in hoverboard matches and amusement park trips. You can look at this like derailment, but what about development? Maybe the guy's just lightened up. Becoming friends with Sonic means that maybe it's not bad to get off the Island once in a while. Knuckles has learned something, that he no longer needs to be uptight about his wife the Master Emerald, because his friends will always back him up. Remember that the reason he comes across as paranoid and protective in S3&K is because he was all alone. He was the only one who could protect the Island from invaders. But now Knuckles is not alone, he's learned to rely on people. Booyah.

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Edited by Black Spy
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You know, my last post was kinda cynical. I do care about plot integrity.

So let's look deeper.

Knuckles leaves his Emerald at home sometimes. This means two things. He feels safe with whatever arrangements he's left, or he's being neglectful.

I think he should just get the Chaotix on the job, but since we never get hints of what the Emerald is doing while Knuckles is out, we'll leave that idea. Now the question is if Knuckles really neglects his duties. In many media Knuckles is interpreted as being slightly resentful of Sonic's freedom. While Sonic runs around without a care, Knuckles is chained to duty. Sonic treats everything like a game. Now Knuckles is one of the regular crew, participating in hoverboard matches and amusement park trips. You can look at this like derailment, but what about development? Maybe the guy's just lightened up. Becoming friends with Sonic means that maybe it's not bad to get off the Island once in a while. Knuckles has learned something, that he no longer needs to be uptight about his wife the Master Emerald, because his friends will always back him up. Remember that the reason he comes across as paranoid and protective in S3&K is because he was all alone. He was the only one who could protect the Island from invaders. But now Knuckles is not alone, he's learned to rely on people. Booyah.

Edited by Dabnikz
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If it's for the better (or as you state below, if it doesn't make a difference), then I don't see any reason to cry for it. I know nobody was crying for Shadow once he finally got over that ridiculous "dark, forgotten past" gimmick he seemed to be all about until the very end of ShTH.

Actually there were still some screws loose where people still hold him to that, although it ends up silenced pretty damn quick.

However, despite him getting over his "dark, forgotten past" some people still hold Shadow by the balls in order to limit his appearance in order to keep him from ever appearing again, or use the very traits about him to limit his appearance.

It's initially because of that reason that this whole "Knuckles should be tied to the ME" belief sprung up in the first place, as a shield to protect Shadow. At least that's why I introduced the idea (or at least I like think I did :lol:) .

I think he should just get the Chaotix on the job, but since we never get hints of what the Emerald is doing while Knuckles is out, we'll leave that idea.

Chaotix are too busy with their detective work. You want my solution? I got THREE.

1) BRING OUT SHADE THE ECHIDNA!

I said once before on here that Shade could be the very key to unlock Knuckles' shackles to the ME and give him more freedom. You got two badass echidnas - one with strength, the other skilled in assassination and stealth - would you want to fuck with either one trying to steal the ME? Really, choose your poison...And god help you if BOTH of them are around.

That just leaves development for Shade.

2) BRING IN G.U.N.

Okay, so if there is something that requires great strength and needs Knuckles to leave the island, why not have GUN keep watch over it? Say Rouge or Shadow needs Knuckles for something, or that Omega arrives on the island for whatever reason. Punches/kicks are throw, forests are leveled, war breaks out, then at the end GUN settle things and make Angel Island a protectorate. Rouge can look at the shiny stone as much as she want (no touchy tho :P), GUN can set up a new base, and Knuckles is free to come and go as he pleases from then on with FULL authority on his island.

Should anyone so much as TRY to get the balls to try to fuck with the M.E. at that point, not only do they have to deal with Knuckles, but they also have Team Dark to deal with...if not the full force of the GUN military for invading a highly secure installation in the first place.

3) Do #1 AND #2

Okay. So, Knuckles...Shade...Team Dark...GUN...

All of which will end up with getting Sonic and Tails involved in SOME way no matter what.

I'm sorry, but WTF are you smoking to even think about invading the Island? You either have to be Dr. Eggman himself (in which that's too crazy even for him), or you got balls of titanium and sheer dumb luck on your side.

Either way, good luck or kiss your ass good-bye.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Actually there were still some screws loose where people still hold him to that, although it ends up silenced pretty damn quick.
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Do I need to tell you said people are morons? I'm not going to give people any credibility if they start using discontinued canon to justify character appearances (or lack thereof as the case may be).

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Like werehog, but replacing stretchy arms with gliding. Objective is to get to the goal, and bust heads on the way.

Oh, just kill me now...

2) BRING IN G.U.N.

Okay, so if there is something that requires great strength and needs Knuckles to leave the island, why not have GUN keep watch over it? Say Rouge or Shadow needs Knuckles for something, or that Omega arrives on the island for whatever reason. Punches/kicks are throw, forests are leveled, war breaks out, then at the end GUN settle things and make Angel Island a protectorate. Rouge can look at the shiny stone as much as she want (no touchy tho :P), GUN can set up a new base, and Knuckles is free to come and go as he pleases from then on with FULL authority on his island.

Should anyone so much as TRY to get the balls to try to fuck with the M.E. at that point, not only do they have to deal with Knuckles, but they also have Team Dark to deal with...if not the full force of the GUN military for invading a highly secure installation in the first place.

I doubt Knuckles would let them build a base on Angel Island. It would probably bring the island in danger (People wanting to attack GUN) and Knuckles protects the whole island, not only the Master Emerald..

And Knuckles doesn't strike me as the type to let people do his duties anyway.

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Anyone think Knuckles should open his own agency like the CHaotix, him being Sonic's side kick is above him and he's supposed to be his equal in fighting. He should have Mighty, Rouge and maybe Blaze on his side and devote his time saving the world by protecting the chaos emerald, sol emeralds and master emerald. And team up with Sonic when the time comes for them to join sides.

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Knuckles is really going to need to take a step backwards before he can move forward. Backward as in inching away from Sonic that is. Knuckles has always been a character with keen instincts that are often misplaced in the world around him. His

“paranoia”

from Free Riders is a great example of this. Knuckles has the intuition to be sharp as a blade, but other characters in the series, namely Eggman and Rouge can easily overpower him mentally, making him come across as a fool. To get past this, and hop back on the fast track to decent development, Knuckles needs to take a step back into his element. He needs to be wild and alone. Not permanently, but the Echidna needs to take the time to pursue his own personal interests, outside of being influenced by Sonic or Tails.

Knuckles always has worked best as a character when his goals worked opposite of Sonic. Even back in SA1, where they were all working toward a common goal, Knuckles was the lone rock. He had his own agenda and best of all, his own way of getting it done. SA2 onward saw Knux slide more and more toward Sonic’s side until they became more or less attached at the hip in Heroes and 06.

To be honest, I don’t know why this is still the case. Shadow has long since moved past being Sonic’s opposition, instead becoming a dependable ally. At the moment, there is no character bar Eggman that Sonic will have to always account for. Knuckles historically filled that role. No reason why he can’t do so now. He is too stubborn to be poisoned by the blue blur’s ideology. He has always believed in his own two hands and he shouldn’t feel comfortable sitting next to Sonic 24/7.

I think what Knuckles really needs is his own spotlight.

Edited by Sega DogTagz
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You could call it character development, before Sonic and Tails he didn't know a soul, so naturally he would be paranoid, but I think being around Sonic, maybe loosened him up, but not by much. I mean in the Sa1 example yeah, he had his own business to do, but if look at the story text when choosing as him, he said he wanted to go with them.

So maybe Knuckles can have his own story separate from Sonic and Tails, only teaming up with them when the situation called for it. Something similar to Bowser's Inside story(minus the whole going inside the body thing). Knuckles is doing his own thing, while Sonic & Tails are doing there's, but they're all ultimately in the same story, and will team up when it matters.

I personally think Sonic needs more antagonist, I mean Team Dark can be a perfect example like in Free Riders, they're clearly not nice, and only racing for selfish reasons. Not evil, but enough to get Sonic to go against them. Sonic & Knuckles` rivalry is more competitive than conflicting ideals. While Sonic is the Chaotic Good, to Knuckles` Lawful Good they know they're on the same side, and can trust each other to have the others back in a fight. So maybe they can fight for competitive reasons alone, maybe Sonic says a snarky remark how he can beat Knuckles, he isn't going to take that shit, and their argument would lead into a lighthearted fight between the two.

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The problem is Shadow has taken Knux's role as a opposite foil to Sonic's fun and free way. Knux would just be a rip off. Theres really no reason for Knux to take the fight to eggman and contrast with Sonic in how to do it, because he knows and feels Sonic's way is rightous and effective.

Shadow on the other hand has more differences with Sonic than Knuckles, Shadow takes things too seriously and is unpredicible and dangerous, his ways consist of wide destruction, killer intent and ultimate perfection. Sonic is more cool and epic, daredevil stunts and rebel without cause. Knuckles in a sense is kinda the same, maybe more manly than cool.

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The problem is Shadow has taken Knux's role as a opposite foil to Sonic's fun and free way. Knux would just be a rip off. Theres really no reason for Knux to take the fight to eggman and contrast with Sonic in how to do it, because he knows and feels Sonic's way is rightous and effective.

Shadow on the other hand has more differences with Sonic than Knuckles, Shadow takes things too seriously and is unpredicible and dangerous, his ways consist of wide destruction, killer intent and ultimate perfection. Sonic is more cool and epic, daredevil stunts and rebel without cause. Knuckles in a sense is kinda the same, maybe more manly than cool.

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You could call it character development, before Sonic and Tails he didn't know a soul, so naturally he would be paranoid, but I think being around Sonic, maybe loosened him up, but not by much. I mean in the Sa1 example yeah, he had his own business to do, but if look at the story text when choosing as him, he said he wanted to go with them.

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Knuckles done right: Sonic Chronicles. In that game he was personalitywise closer to his SA1 version than he has been since, well, SA1.

The only problem I had with that game, was the fact he now knew everything about his past, I mean he didn't know shit in SA1 so how does he know now?

Shadow has evolved so far as a character that he no longer represents what he once did. Back in SA2 and Heroes, he was certainly taking Knuckles place as primary opposition to Sonic (even though they had the same goal in the latter). However in his most recent outings to save the world, 06 and Colors, Shadow has abandoned that standing in favor of an ally role. He no longer is the hindrance to Knuckles development that he once was.

Besides, Sonic has proven that his character can take in multiple foils anyway. With Shadow moved to more of a complimentary role, Knuckles should be free to resume his never ending friendly grudge match against Sonic unchecked.

The thing though, Knuckles too has moved on from being in Sonic's way to more of an ally, in fact Eggman is the only person who still goes against him. Sonic needs more opposition it makes things more intersting. But rather than Knuckles shouldn't really appose Sonic unless he has a reason, and I'm tired of the whole being tricked to fight Sonic deal, its a running gag thats run its course. Knuckles should have his own side of a story that occasionally crosses with Sonic's, but ultimately intertwine.

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I doubt Knuckles would let them build a base on Angel Island. It would probably bring the island in danger (People wanting to attack GUN) and Knuckles protects the whole island, not only the Master Emerald..

Okay first off, who in their right mind other than Eggman would have the balls to attack a heavily fortified military base, for the sake of wanting attacking GUN? Black Arms would be a contender if they were still around, and had Shadow fighting on their side. And second, why wouldn't he let them build a base on Angel Island when GUN could help protect it and the Master Emerald?

I can't fathom how having a military base with equipment and soldiers around the clock would make the Island MORE vulnerable when it's primitive traps from Knuckles alone can do a damn good job. And with Knuckles being a hindrance to foes on his island on his own, you'd think a large battalion of military personnel would only serve to magnify that one man army Knuckles can be on his own. Multiply that by the three other one man army characters Rouge, Shadow, and Omega, who could serve as support in case things get messy and THEN tell me how much danger the Floating Island would be. Unless someone is suicidal, the chances of them succeeding is very slim.

And Knuckles doesn't strike me as the type to let people do his duties anyway.

And yet he seems to be the type to tag-along and help someone else with theirs. How ironic.

Even more ironic when he left it all up to Sonic to do his duties and retrieve the M.E. for him in S3&K, or hasn't been doing his duties himself in certain titles.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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The thing though, Knuckles too has moved on from being in Sonic's way to more of an ally, in fact Eggman is the only person who still goes against him. Sonic needs more opposition it makes things more intersting. But rather than Knuckles shouldn't really appose Sonic unless he has a reason, and I'm tired of the whole being tricked to fight Sonic deal, its a running gag thats run its course. Knuckles should have his own side of a story that occasionally crosses with Sonic's, but ultimately intertwine.

Knuckles hasn't strayed quite as far as it may appear though. In the Handheld games, such as Battle, Rush 1 and Colors, Knuckles is still the stubborn "I'm on my own side" guy that he origionally was. While somewhat exaggerated from time to time, his old school personality has remained somewhat intact on the small screen. All while not being forced against Sonic via trickery I might add. Knuckles was an ally in many games, but unlike Shadow did not completely abandon his antagonistic nature.

Going back to it would be much less of a stretch for Knux.

Multiply that by the three other one man army characters Rouge, Shadow, and Omega, who could serve as support in case things get messy and THEN tell me how much danger the Floating Island would be.

Personally, I'd be packing my life preservers. That Island is going down fast. Rouge would make off with the Emerald first chance she got.

With Knuckles current opinion of Rouge in mind, he wouldn't let Rouge touch Angel Island with a 10 foot pole let alone guard his valuables.

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Knuckles hasn't strayed quite as far as it may appear though. In the Handheld games, such as Battle, Rush 1 and Colors, Knuckles is still the stubborn "I'm on my own side" guy that he origionally was. While somewhat exaggerated from time to time, his old school personality has remained somewhat intact on the small screen. All while not being forced against Sonic via trickery I might add. Knuckles was an ally in many games, but unlike Shadow did not completely abandon his antagonistic nature.

Going back to it would be much less of a stretch for Knux.

I dunno in Free Riders Shadow seemed to return to his previous antagonistic nature as well.

That is true, I guess you can say Knuckles would only team up with Sonic & Tails, the same way Shadow would only team up with Rouge & Omega. I really don't see Knuckles as a neutral character really, at least not as much as Team Dark anyway. On the subject of Rouge & Knuckles, anyone else think their rivalry needs to return? I mean it would give Knux someone other than Sonic to fight against, and interact with(Because apparently Knuckles hanging with Sonic is bad now). Plus imagine the Foe Yay.

I

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I dunno in Free Riders Shadow seemed to return to his previous antagonistic nature as well.

That is true, I guess you can say Knuckles would only team up with Sonic & Tails, the same way Shadow would only team up with Rouge & Omega. I really don't see Knuckles as a neutral character really, at least not as much as Team Dark anyway. On the subject of Rouge & Knuckles, anyone else think their rivalry needs to return? I mean it would give Knux someone other than Sonic to fight against, and interact with(Because apparently Knuckles hanging with Sonic is bad now). Plus imagine the Foe Yay

Shadow reverts back to his antagonistic side for the sake of competition, but when the world is on the line (06 & Colors) he lacks that same holier than thou attitude.

As for Knuckles and Rouge, Sonic Team hasn't forgotten about them yet. The two got some more screen time in Colors, which was entertaining, and they were partners in Rivals 2 not too long ago. The two still clearly have it in for the other, I can tell you that much.

Edited by Sega DogTagz
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