Are Mario Games Starting to Decline?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Mario games dont feel fresh anymore; its always the exact same story, the exact same gameplay. Theres nothing new or interesting to me anymore. It could just be that he has nothing more to offer me, and I'm just simply burned out on him, but I can't help but shake the feeling that he's steadily declining.Im wondering how long Nintendo can keep making Mario games without ever changing it; sooner or later, I'm pretty certain people will be tired of playing what is essentially the same game over and over.

So heres my question for you: Are Mario Games starting to show signs of steady decline?

Edited December 20, 2010 by Enigma2

[-Mark-]

I'd disagree. Galaxy 2 is the most fun I've had with a new Mario in ages, personally. And frankly, if you play Mario games for the plot, you're in the wrong franchise.

Admittedly Mario games don't try and 'shake up the formula' as much as Sonic games do, but with fairly good reason- look where it got Sonic. Werehoh, sword and Shadow the Hedgehog, much?

Okay, the FLUDD in Mario Sunshine was gimmicky as hell and as such Sunshine was kinda bleh. Still, you do have one valid point, that many have worried about since Galaxy (and especially Galaxy 2); where do they go from here? Nintendo are treading on dangerous ground now, but then that tends to be the case when you make something as critically acclaimed as the Mario Galaxy games.

It's the same problem the Sonic series had back on the Mega Drive, almost. Do you keep churning out game after similar game, and get accused of being 'lazy' for making 'more of the same', despite unarguable quality, or do you take a risk with a new twist or gimmick that could potentially make the games feel fresh again, but at the same time serve as a double-edged sword that could make them worse?

We'll just have to see where Nintendo go from here. As great as the Galaxy games are, I think we'd all be thoroughly bored if they ever one day rolled out Super Mario Galaxy 5. Even great ideas aren't immune to becoming dull when they're just repeated as more of the same, after all. Yet at the same time, there's that fine line to tread between making something feel familiar yet new at the same time. Revamp something too much and people will complain, saying it feels nothing like previous games (I'm looking at you, Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts), but not enough, and people just accuse you of being unoriginal and resting on your laurels. It's a difficult balancing act, I'll admit.

As things stand though, I'd say Mario's doing just fine in terms of the quality of the main series- Galaxy 2 is definitely one of the best, in my opinion. Where they go from here, however, is anyone's guess.

If you ask me, it's the Zelda series that's been in gradual decline. For me, the last truly great Zelda games were Wind Waker and Minish Cap. Every Zelda title since then has been textbook, paint-by-numbers Zelda, overly gimmicky, or both. Fingers crossed for Skyward Sword, then.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Mahzes

[Scar]

Yeah. I had been wondering about the same thing. Mario has now been literally everywhere. Where can he go from here?

I'd be quite miffed with Ninty if they made a Galaxy 3 and thoroughly pissed if they decided to push it any further.

It seems like Mario games in terms of creativity have hit a glass ceiling.

[-Mark-]

Don't worry, they can still try giving him a sword and have him turn into a werewolf. 8D

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Not really. The Mario series isn't known for it's story, so you're not doing yourself a favor by using that against it. Although I can say that story could do this series some good if it was truly spectacular.

I'll admit, I don't see any 3D Mario game toping the fun Mario 64 had, but Galaxy had it's merits and Galaxy 2 I hear is spectacular. Sunshine was shit, although at the very least I know there are those who will believe it was slightly less than mediocre.

Although with the advent of Galaxy, it does make one wonder where they can go next. They've already done dimensions in Super Paper Mario, but I don't know how that fared out. But I do believe that there is some untapped potential within the series, but I can't say this series is down the toilet. Now if we get a Mario Galaxy 5, then there is a reason to complain if you ask me.

If there's any Nintendo series that is on the decline, it would be as Mahzes has said before (and I'm sure others will as well), the Zelda series. It's been so by the book that hasn't had any real major innovation that makes it last. The last Zelda game I've played was Twilight Princess, and while it had a plot that I found memorable, everything else just isn't enough to make it stand out as much...except for the Zora Temple, that place was hell for me in trying to navigate it it well enough.

[Solly]

The only main-series Mario games that didn't attempt to do something new and fresh were Galaxy 2 and New Super Mario Bros titles. And I'll give those games a pass, because New Super Mario Bros was a revival of 2D Mario, the Wii version was an interesting experiment in multiplayer, and Galaxy 2 was absolutely amazing.

Besides any of those, I don't know how you can look at Mario's track record and say that the gameplay is all the same. Galaxy is much, much different from Sunshine, even if its premise is similar. It has simplified controls, an emphasis on power-ups, mostly-linear level structure and Wiimote functions.

And I'm not sure I get the whole "he was already in outerspace, so where can he even go from here?" argument. Where they decide to put Mario doesn't matter. They can bring a lot of gameplay innovation to the series by using other themes and gimmicks, like what they did with FLUDD. Yeah, in hindsight FLUDD wasn't the greatest idea, but it made Sunshine stand out among other Mario games, even if for some of the wrong reasons.

So yeah, as people have been saying, I think the Zelda series is in more dire need of innovation. Even then though, I'd go so far as to say Zelda games are all very unique when looked at one-by-one, and they do more to stand out from their predecessors than 90% of all other videogame sequels. The real reason Zelda needs innovation is more or less the fact that there are SO MANY sequels.

[Carbo]

I'd only agree on the grounds that Mario is becoming incresingly stagnant, and in some ways irrelevant compared to what he was accomplishing when the end of the last century was approaching, even though I did enjoy Super Mario Galaxy 2 alot more than its predecessor which I thought was a horribly failed experiment in the sense of its execution rather than concept.

That said, NSMB Wii is probably some of the most disappointing tripe I've had to play with Mario's name on it. While I didn't like Galaxy, at least it worked and brang new stuff to the table which kept me entertained for about half of the main quest. NSMB Wii on the other hand fills literally no purpose and has no reason to exist other than cementing Mario into a corner.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Carbo

[Sega DogTagz]

Even though I am one of the biggest dissenters on the Galaxy games, and the last Mario tittle I played (Super Paper Mario) was absolutely atrocious in my book, I think I would chalk up stagnation on Mario's part to the genre in general. Platformers have fallen off a bit in the last 5-6 years, and the 5 star tittles are a bit father in between then when they were back in its heyday. I think a good deal of platformers have reached the point where they are looking for the next big shift in gameplay. Platforming just inst enough anymore, no matter how good it is. Power-ups are having a comeback as of late, and everyone is looking for that next angle.

[Carbo]

Even though I am one of the biggest dissenters on the Galaxy games, and the last Mario tittle I played (Super Paper Mario) was absolutely atrocious in my book, I think I would chalk up stagnation on Mario's part to the genre in general. Platformers have fallen off a bit in the last 5-6 years, and the 5 star tittles are a bit father in between then when they were back in its heyday. I think a good deal of platformers have reached the point where they are looking for the next big shift in gameplay. Platforming just inst enough anymore, no matter how good it is. Power-ups are having a comeback as of late, and everyone is looking for that next angle.

I dunno. My favorite game of the year is actually an indie game; Super Meat Boy. This year has seen quite a bit of great platforming, ironically all from the indie scene. Only to name the most notable ones, The Misadventures of P.B. Winterbottom, VVVVVV, Limbo and Super Meat Boy. Arguably only one of those games bring entirely new things to the table, which is VVVVVV, but platforming this year actually showcased some great titles that didn't really need innovation or anything new, and those that did excelled and got a good deal of acclaim. I'd say it says alot if an indie game can come out with something not only more compelling, but all in all better designed than your average Triple A studio, and especially Nintendo who by this point can practically program 2D-platformers in their sleep.

I'm not getting into Galaxy 2 too much at this point, but suffice to say that I let it pass just cause it takes a concept that I thought was great but undermined, and perfects it, although being one of the guys in the norm here, I can definitely see that wasn't more the case when they made it cause really that game evolved from simply being in expansion pack nature, and Nintendo even attests to that.

[JezMM]

Everyone else has said what I want to say gameplay-wise (though I'll defend NSMB Wii to the very end - just because it isn't new and spectacular doesn't mean it's not a damn fine Mario game. I think of it as NSMB's own "Lost Levels", and even then it still has TONS of new stage gimmicks and ideas that NSMB didn't have - and the final stage was friggin' awesome, which was something I absoloutely was not expecting them to branch out and do differently).

So I'll just respond to this part:

its always the exact same story

Play the RPGs. Most particularly - play Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door. They need to goddamn re-release this because it's the greatest story any Mario game has ever had and currently it's one of the most inaccessible to play.

Would I love a plot that awesome in a proper 3D Mario platformer? Yes. Am I convinced they could make it work without intruding on the pick-up-and-play gameplay? Not entirely, which is why I accept the simple storylines of Mario games. (Hate that Galaxy 2 completely lost the grand epic vibe of Galaxy 1 though, no matter how sublime the gameplay was).

Oh oh, also offtopic, on the issue of Zelda: I actually found Twilight Princess pretty refereshing. Not only were the cut-scenes way more cinematic and engaging despite the lack of voice acting, the gameplay itself did away with a TON of tropes 3D Zelda had got almost uncomfortably attached to. Almost every returning weapon was re-imagined to have a new interesting use (double clawshot being the best), and there were loads of fun new items too, even if ones like the spinner were 100% situational. They even did away with magic meters and elemental arrows and still managed to make a brilliant amount of dungeons with original puzzles.

Edited December 20, 2010 by JezMM

[speedfreak]

If you would have asked this during the Gamecube days I might have said yes, but here during the era of Wii I'm in complete disagreement with you. If anything this has been Mario's renaissance. Staring in 3 or 4 fantastic (to most) platformers, selling millions of copies (even of an old ass SNES port), and he hasn't been this big in the public eye since either the early N64 days or maybe even since his heyday in the classics.

Now I might agree that it would be nice to see Mario with a different story, but at the end of the day the platforming has been so good that I don't really care too much. Besides the Galaxy games had their (very little) side plots that were enjoyable enough. I don't think you can condemn Mario of all series because of it's lack luster plots. It's always been about the platforming, and that has never been better than it is now IMO.

[blackherox]

Even though I am one of the biggest dissenters on the Galaxy games, and the last Mario tittle I played (Super Paper Mario) was absolutely atrocious in my book, I think I would chalk up stagnation on Mario's part to the genre in general. Platformers have fallen off a bit in the last 5-6 years, and the 5 star tittles are a bit father in between then when they were back in its heyday. I think a good deal of platformers have reached the point where they are looking for the next big shift in gameplay. Platforming just inst enough anymore, no matter how good it is. Power-ups are having a comeback as of late, and everyone is looking for that next angle.

I ceratinly agree. Not that I think the main Mario games are atrocious, but even since Super Mario 64, I just haven't felt progression. More like a forumla remodeled, tweaked with slightly different settings and better graphics. I guess, I too am waiting for the next 'big shift' for platformers.

Edit: The above can be applied to the Mario Kart series moreso, which really really needs a major kick up the ass.

Edited December 20, 2010 by blackherox

[Ekaje]

Yes, the Mario games do use the same sorts of themes over and over, but at least for me, they use those themes magnificently, so they can get away with it through the games being fantastic. Though after Galaxy, there is the problem of where to go next. People will get miffed by rehasing Galaxy again and again, but as NSMBW showed, many wouldn't be pleased with just boringly retreading older things either. One of the options would be to try a new kind of gameplay entirely. Unfortnuatly, Nintendo isn't known for shaking up their frachised very often, and when they do it's not always good or well done, so time will tell what they'll do with main series Mario games in the future.

Edit: The above can be applied to the Mario Kart series moreso, which really really needs a major kick up the ass.

Though MK's problem is that it has one big glaring issue that's only gotten worse over time.

[Too cool for school]

Mario games dont feel fresh anymore; its always the exact same story, the exact same gameplay. Theres nothing new or interesting to me anymore. It could just be that he has nothing more to offer me, and I'm just simply burned out on him, but I can't help but shake the feeling that he's steadily declining.Im wondering how long Nintendo can keep making Mario games without ever changing it; sooner or later, I'm pretty certain people will be tired of playing what is essentially the same game over and over.

So heres my question for you: Are Mario Games starting to show signs of steady decline?

Your just now starting to notice, this? Lol.

I pretty much got sick of mario after mario 64, mario is EXTREMLY overrated just like how people overrate any other game, there *alright* but ain't half as cool as people say they are.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Too cool for school

[SoniClub]

I don't know why Sunshine gets so much crap, it's actually a really good game! It seems like one of these games where no-one has actually played it but just says that it's crap. Now I'm far from a Mario fan but Sunshine definitely deserves more than it gets. The gameplay was very solid and Fludd (the water gun...thing) added an extra dimension and worked well as a gameplay mechanic; the graphics and style were a great mix of a tropical resort with mario themes with the areas being great to explore and they actually did try to do something slightly more interesting with the story. Of course when playing Mario i'm not expecting a massively in depth plot, but it'd be nice to see some bits of interaction or something slightly different than "Save the Princess". I find it allows for a game to be a lot more interesting and Sunshine did just that.

But on topic, I don't think Mario is necessarily getting worse or declining, just maybe loosing some originality in the ideas presentation wise. Galaxy was a fantastic game, but I'm starting to get bored of it's style, music and all.

[Ekaje]

I don't know why Sunshine gets so much crap, it's actually a really good game! It seems like one of these games where no-one has actually played it but just says that it's crap. Now I'm far from a Mario fan but Sunshine definitely deserves more than it gets. The gameplay was very solid and Fludd (the water gun...thing) added an extra dimension and worked well as a gameplay mechanic; the graphics and style were a great mix of a tropical resort with mario themes with the areas being great to explore and they actually did try to do something slightly more interesting with the story. Of course when playing Mario i'm not expecting a massively in depth plot, but it'd be nice to see some bits of interaction or something slightly different than "Save the Princess". I find it allows for a game to be a lot more interesting and Sunshine did just that.

But on topic, I don't think Mario is necessarily getting worse or declining, just maybe loosing some originality in the ideas presentation wise. Galaxy was a fantastic game, but I'm starting to get bored of it's style, music and all.

While I too like Sunshine, it still has many flaws, among them brutally hard levels, sometimes unfairly (Secret of the Village Underside), as well as blue coins everywhere to pad out the Shine count.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Ekaje

[Chooch]

Are Mario Games starting to show signs of steady decline?

Not at all considering Galaxy and Galaxy 2 are the first Mario games to impress me in a good number of years.

I think I would chalk up stagnation on Mario's part to the genre in general. Platformers have fallen off a bit in the last 5-6 years, and the 5 star tittles are a bit father in between then when they were back in its heyday.

In the past five to six years we've had four Ratchet and Clank titles, two Sly games, and LittleBigPlanet. And that isn't even close to all we've had.

All this talk about platformers dying as of late often comes from people either being ignorant of other consoles with great platforming titles or simply not paying attention.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Chooch

[SoniClub]

While I too like Sunshine better than most, it still has many flaws, among them brutally hard levels, sometimes unfairly, as well as blue coins everywhere to pad out the Shine count.

Yeah, I didn't say it was perfect. But I don't like it when people just pass it off as 'shit' or 'crap', when it certainly isn't!

But I'll give you that one. The red coin levels and blue coins were bitchin.

[Agent York]

No.

If you want a more interesting story in a Mario game go play the Mario RPG's (or Galaxy 1 which while not a huge difference I enjoyed the more epic approach the story had). If you want something that tried new gameplay and really exceeded at it, try the two new Galaxy games. If you want classic style try New Super Mario Bros. And then they have the sports titles and Mario KArt.

They sell well, Galaxy 2 JUST came out this year and now is one of the top-rated games of all time and a lot of people's favorite game of the year, and was an absolute joy to play. I'm guessing this topic was just made since you have some vendetta against Mario.

If anything, this should of came out 5 or so years ago since last generation there were TOO many Mario sports games and while I enjoyed Mario Sunshine more than most it had some flaws, and Mario Kart: Double Dash and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door weren't enough to carry the name though both fantastic titles.

I think Nintendo is capable of going into a new and more interesting direction, though the question does come "Where do we go from here?" However I trust they'll come with something great, now the expectations have risen it might be harder though.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Dusk the Horror Keeper

[SenEDDtor Missile]

@ Dusk Keeper

<------ Does not hold any vendetta against Mario, just stating his feelings on whether Mario is steadily stagnating or not.

Play the RPGs. Most particularly - play Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door. They need to goddamn re-release this because it's the greatest story any Mario game has ever had and currently it's one of the most inaccessible to play.

Yeah, I probably should have been more specific with the story part; I know that Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door has a much better plot, I just forgot to mention it as one of the exceptions. ALSO...

"but it'd be nice to see some bits of interaction or something slightly different than "Save the Princess". I find it allows for a game to be a lot more interesting and Sunshine did just that."

Took the words right out of my mouth (or my keyboard).

Gameplay-wise, Mario games ARE good, but I'm just wondering if they plan on doing something to shake things up a little. With Nintendo having vastly more resources and manpower than SEGA, not to mention their reputation for quality, I don't see why they cant change things up more than what their doing now.

On an unrelated note, anyone besides me notice that other than Flower-Pwr's review for Shadow the Hedgehog, we dont seem to have that many Sonic Game (or any game for that matter) reviews? Is there a reason behind this?

Edited December 20, 2010 by Enigma2

[Noir]

If there is any video game series I had to pick to say is declining in quality, Mario is probably the last I'd pick. (It would have been Metroid until we were given Sakamoto's Fantasies: The Game). Every main game, to me, besides Sunshine and the NSMB series, have been getting progressively better. Sunshine is commendable for trying something new, and NSMBW is definitely a fun multiplayer romp, so the only one I wouldn't excuse is NSMB.

I can see why people wonder if Mario has put himself between a Goomba and a hard place (eh? eh? ) because Galaxy 2 is by far the most simply fun game I've ever played. It isn't trying to be anything it's not like some games that want to be movies and whatnot. It's a game, it feels like a game, and it has some of the most well designed levels ever, not to mention it's gorgeous and has a fantastic soundtrack. It makes you wonder how Nintendo can do something even better, but Galaxy was a true stroke of genius and I think if they could make something so great, they can top it.

And tally up another vote for Zelda needing some change. Aesthetically every game has felt extremely fresh except for Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks (Even Majora's Mask had a very unique palette and world compared to OoT's despite reusing its graphics). The gameplay is getting a bit stagnant though. The King of Red Lions and Wolf Link were both a bit of fun but they were one-trick ponies.

[agoodusername]

Well, if you want to get technical, Mario still has a lot of ground to cover before he can call it quits, FPS, MMORPG, life sim, dating sim, hentai, and, hack-n'-slash just to name a few. Personally, I would never want to see Mario go in any of those directions, so yeah, you may be right...

[sjmaster92]

Yes, I feel like the Mario series is starting to decline. Honesty I was never really impressed with any of Mario's mainstream games including the Galaxy games which I picked up used. My first impressions were "This feels just like Mario 64 with more levels and power-ups" the game wasn't bad, But I didn't believe it deserved the high scores it received from the media, but that's just me.

Edited December 20, 2010 by sjmaster92

[Sega DogTagz]

In the past five to six years we've had four Ratchet and Clank titles, two Sly games, and LittleBigPlanet. And that isn't even close to all we've had.

All this talk about platformers dying as of late often comes from people either being ignorant of other consoles with great platforming titles or simply not paying attention.

[Carbo]

Personally, I think LBP is a really good indicator that the industry understands the stagnation of platformers. No better way to get the creative juices flowing for originality than to open up development to the imagination of the user.

I never said that great platformers were gone, just that the ones of today are a bit harder to find then yesterday, and that the ones we do have are often diluted by their own alternate gameplay styles.

LBP doesn't let you construct platform games though. It's just a big level designer game that has a basic as hell platformer layout with a fancy physics engine.

LBP2 doesn't count really either cause that is less a platform game and more a platform for games.