Are Mario Games Starting to Decline?

[Ekaje]

Bah, kids these days with their infinite lives and their regenerating heawait what the fuck am I talking about I'm only 15...

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Huh. Looks like things have gotten off topic....that or I'm behind the times.

[Sean]

Actually when I was at Pelly's last year, and we were playing SMB3 cooperatively, I think we had trouble with world 8. We didn't game over but we had to use P wings.

I uh, I'm only good at the game when NOBODY IS LOOKING.

Huh. Looks like things have gotten off topic....that or I'm behind the times.

Oh. Mario games, no decline, etc. New games are just as good except for New Super Mario Bros. which I get bored to fucking death of. But Galaxy 2 looks brilliant.

[Saint Nathan]

Oh. Mario games, no decline, etc. New games are just as good except for New Super Mario Bros. which I get bored to fucking death of. But Galaxy 2 looks brilliant.

OH, I forgot about that one.

I retract my statement about Galaxy 1 being the worst Mario game.

however it is still the worst 3D mario game that isn't a remake (i'm looking at you 64DS.)

[Remy]

OH, I forgot about that one.

I retract my statement about Galaxy 1 being the worst Mario game.

however it is still the worst 3D mario game that isn't a remake (i'm looking at you 64DS.)

That's bullshit man, by what metric do you measure sunshine as being better than it?

[Saint Nathan]

That's bullshit man, by what metric do you measure sunshine as being better than it?

Galaxy is absolutely amazing for the first few galaxies, then once you hit Engine Room the game goes bad real fast (as in mario bad, which is still pretty damn good), and you're bored with all the other levels.

I can't remember that happening in any other 3D Mario game. Sunshine had a few bad spots in levels, but hardly ever did they get boring the whole way though, not to mention when they do it's few and far between. The only really dissapointing part is the final boss and level (why the fuck is bowser seven million feet tall but stuck in a hot tub. in a volcano.)

[Carbo]

Galaxy is absolutely amazing for the first few galaxies, then once you hit Engine Room the game goes bad real fast (as in mario bad, which is still pretty damn good), and you're bored with all the other levels.

I can't remember that happening in any other 3D Mario game. Sunshine had a few bad spots in levels, but hardly ever did they get boring the whole way though, not to mention when they do it's few and far between. The only really dissapointing part is the final boss and level (why the fuck is bowser seven million feet tall but stuck in a hot tub. in a volcano.)

I can pretty much get behind this reasoning as to why I preffer Sunshine over Galaxy, although personally I don't think that Galaxy is put in Mario standard with how much I dislike it.

Sunshine was great though, so much detail, all that thematic variety, and so much freedom, and I never understood why that had to be heavily restricted for Galaxy, which ironically is probably the most claustrophobic 3D Mario game. In Galaxy 2's case they made it work alot more though, and had a better progression over things.

I think it's well overdue for Mario to get back on earth and start roaming freely again.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Carbo

[Diogenes]

Sunshine had a few bad spots in levels, but hardly ever did they get boring the whole way though,

Blue coins.

[Agent York]

The thing I really liked about Sunshine is how open it was with things to do inside interesting locales. Mario Galaxy felt too restricted, Galaxy 2 fixed a lot of the linear issues by making more side-things to do in stages and making them better designed to embrace their linearity in unique situations, but it still was missing exploration.

Sunshine did this thing where the levels all felt like built-in Hub Worlds. Delfino Plaza was fun to mess around in first of all and stays as my favorite Mario Overworld. But then each level continues the "Slice of Paradise" theme and are more open, have things just to do for fun in them, as well as many side things you can do and just be a child and have fun. ALSO while some of the missions (a very minor few) got in the way, I actually really enjoyed Galaxy's missions and besides the final boss, I think it holds my favorite Mario bosses in the game. There's a charm about the title that makes me love it a lot, and even the gripes with a few frustrating missions, blue coins, and the downright stupid story I love the game for it's fun gameplay and allowance to be like a kid and just enjoy yourself instead of going straight for the goal.

[SuperStingray]

Blue coins.

Oh god, don't remind me. That shit made the medals in Sonic Unleashed seem like nothing. At least if you're going for all 120 sprites.

Edited December 28, 2010 by SuperStingray

[Remy]

The thing I really liked about Sunshine is how open it was with things to do inside interesting locales. Mario Galaxy felt too restricted, Galaxy 2 fixed a lot of the linear issues by making more side-things to do in stages and making them better designed to embrace their linearity in unique situations, but it still was missing exploration.

galaxy's restriction is what I call focus, I think the differance between Galaxy and sunshine is probably that they appear to completely differant gamers. I absolutely love the no fluff approach to galaxy's levels, whereas I loathe the "freeroam" style of sunshine, which I imagine other people like way more.

[SuperStingray]

galaxy's restriction is what I call focus, I think the differance between Galaxy and sunshine is probably that they appear to completely differant gamers. I absolutely love the no fluff approach to galaxy's levels, whereas I loathe the "freeroam" style of sunshine, which I imagine other people like way more.

This. I don't know why people think linear is a bad word. In case you forgot, every single one of the earliest Mario Games is pretty damn linear. There's a difference between putting limitations on player freedom and creating a single path. And likewise, there's a difference between making an open environment and spreading level elements thin. Not every game has to be a sandbox. If anything, the weakest levels in the Galaxy games were the overly open ones. I'd take Matter Splatter over Beach Bowl any day of the week. This is also the reason I prefer Mario 64 to Sunshine: there is almost no inch of ground left without purpose in 64; the levels are as small as they need to be, no more, no less. Okay, so Rainbow Cruise's carpet rides were annoyingly slow, but almost every one Sunshine's levels are just freakin' huge and full of filler, the biggest offenders being Bianco Hills and Noki Bay.

[Carbo]

Linearity isn't a bad thing. The way it's handled in Galaxy is. It's the Tron Legacy and Avatar of videogames, it's beautifully designed and all the things that stand to support it are very well done, but the meat of the game is lacking in that regard because they're really only lasting for one run-through, and replaying them feels incredibly tedious. Super Mario Galaxy 2 excels in that regard cause its progression and design is alot more focused and instead actually puts gameplay in front of tired-out Nintendo charm which really seems to work mostly in Kirby.

Galaxy 2 is one of my favorite Mario games, second only to Paper Mario 2. Galaxy is one of my least favorite, if you disregard all those spin-offs.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Carbo

[Remy]

Galaxy 2 isn't that much of a rapid departure from glalaxy, its weird you hate galaxy so much and love the sequel

[SuperStingray]

It's the Tron Legacy and Avatar of videogames, it's beautifully designed and all the things that stand to support it are very well done, but the meat of the game is lacking in that regard because they're really only lasting for one run-through, and replaying them feels incredibly tedious. Super Mario Galaxy 2 excels in that regard cause its progression and design is alot more focused and instead actually puts gameplay in front of tired-out Nintendo charm which really seems to work mostly in Kirby.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Galaxy 1 barely held any appeal for me, and same applies to the sequel, mostly cause the "excellent" platforming was boring. Not to mention the game was VERY restricted in terms of exploration.

...you know, maybe I should have added the question "Is Mario getting boring?" when I started this topic. O well

[Carbo]

Galaxy 2 isn't that much of a rapid departure from glalaxy, its weird you hate galaxy so much and love the sequel

Again, Galaxy 1 didn't have a bad concept or design by any means, I just found it to have poor execution. In my opinion, Galaxy 2 does most of everything alot better. Essentially like I've stated once, it does to Galaxy 1 what Sonic Colors did to Sonic Unleashed. For people who love both I'd assume it's kinda hard to get past that mindset, but progression and level design is what I consider the most important things about a Mario game, and that's where I saw Galaxy 1 fall short. It was a one-way spectacle and nothing more. Galaxy 2 had the risk to fall into that right from the get-go, but it didn't. I can't be more specific than that.

Since I'm starting to sound like I'm just repeating myself at this point, I'll just use the simple layman's term for it; I just found it boring. Galaxy 2 is not boring.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Carbo

[CanofEpicSauce]

Yeah. I had been wondering about the same thing. Mario has now been literally everywhere. Where can he go from here?

I'd be quite miffed with Ninty if they made a Galaxy 3 and thoroughly pissed if they decided to push it any further.

It seems like Mario games in terms of creativity have hit a glass ceiling.

Hit a glass ceiling? Woah, woah, WOAH! Hold on a second, first off, Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 have completely different gameplay mechanics, controls, and overall level design compared to the other 3D Mario games. Second, Galaxy 2 was the pinnacle of creative level design, and thoughtful power-ups, so you can't say that Mario's creativity hit a glass ceiling.

And as for declining. No, the games are going just as strong as they did back in the 80s and 90s and 00s, Mario's style is actually changing believe it or not. We also don't know what Nintendo has instore for the next Mario game, maybe the next game will take place back the Mushroom Kingdom. I mean, he's went through paintings in 3D, went to an island in 3D, went in space in 3D, but never explored the Mushroom Kingdom in 3D.

As for story, let's face it, people play Mario games for the gameplay, so I don't think people could care less about the story.

Edited December 29, 2010 by FranticDarkness

[Dr. Mechano]

As for story, let's face it, people play Mario games for the gameplay, so I don't think people could care less about the story.

[SuperStingray]

Yeah, I really wish people would drop the assumption that people don't appreciate a game for its story, regardless of the franchise. For god's sake Pokemon is about catching tiny creatures in balls and battling them. That's it. Yet they've made 11 movies and 500 anime episodes of it. Why? Because there's story and people like it. Gameplay is what drives the game at it's core, but a story, when told or done right, amplifies that immersion several times over. The gameplay makes Mario 64 and Galaxy great, but it's the story that makes them timeless.

[Carbo]

Hit a glass ceiling? Woah, woah, WOAH! Hold on a second, first off, Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 have completely different gameplay mechanics, controls, and overall level design compared to the other 3D Mario games. Second, Galaxy 2 was the pinnacle of creative level design, and thoughtful power-ups, so you can't say that Mario's creativity hit a glass ceiling.

Yoshi; a gameplay element that took its place back in the 90's, and two new power-ups. That's hardly anything to boast about, or a next big step for the franchise. Galaxy 2 just did what Galaxy did, only better. Creativity in design? Maybe it's still holding up, most likely cause they actually built a tool for Galaxy 2 that could let any competent programmer construct their own levels, speeding up development and not having a set agenda on how to work. But if we're talking about concepts, Mario is reaching that glass ceiling, and NSMB Wii + Galaxy 2 is pretty much proof of that. Liking the games or disliking them doesn't really change anything about that.

I'd probably enjoy a Galaxy 3 but I'd still be incredibly disappointed with it's existance. I really want Mario to do something new, whether it be a different setting, different engine, different plotline or whatever. Paper Mario 2 is still one game I consider to be the pinnacle of creativity within the Mario series and possibly any Nintendo game as a whole. If that kind of stuff and ideas can be implemented in the next big 3D Mario game, I'd be all over it.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Carbo

[Saint Nathan]

Blue coins.

I never bothered to get all the Shine Sprites, so I dunno. I never had much issue with the ones you have to do.

As for story, let's face it, people play Mario games for the gameplay, so I don't think people could care less about the story.

I love it when people say this. It's funny, because you have no idea what you're talking about.

When Galaxy 2 came out, I think I was more interested in how the story would play out than the gameplay. I liked Galaxy's semi-focus on characters, even if it was mostly Rosalina, Mario and Peach seemed more fleshed out too.

Seriously man, if a game dosen't have a story I can at least care about equally to the gameplay, I don't like it. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Agent York]

While story is never NEEDED to make a good game, a good story never takes away from a game. If it's a crappy story or tedious one it's better to have no story at all, yes. However many people actually really enjoy the plots in the Mario RPG's and in Mario Galaxy. Their simple and not overly complex, and this fact is true, but the thing is you don't need a complex, complicated set-up to have a good story. Mario Galaxy technically didn't have anymore story than Mario games usually have. However, it's presentation made it feel fresh and epic and very enjoyable, which is one of my gripes with Galaxy 2 that they dropped the presentation of the story for something simple and a step down. However, if you let story get in the way of your enjoyment of the game you're silly since it doesn't factor into everything else Galaxy 2 does right. Mario also has lovable characters that carry on through the whole series, even the enemies carry on and are lovable in their own ways, and it allows us to grow fonder of them and look forward to seeing what these characters are up to now. Whenever in the mainstream games or the spin-offs playing tennis and racing karts.

I've had some heated discussion (lol video games serious bidness) about the difference between Mario Galaxy and Galaxy 2, which they are more different than some give them credit for. However, most of it is in the game's philosophies, it's design direction. Besides the fact they refined controls a bit for Galaxy 2, Galaxy 2 is focused on stages that are more "Compact". In other words, compared to some of Galaxy's stages, they are much smaller. HOWEVER, while smaller they also pack more action and creativity into these bursts and Galaxy 2 keeps throwing new things at you to the point almost every single stage, if not every one, has something new in store. The downside is some ideas don't feel fleshed out or used to the fullest, however this becomes minor just in the sheer amount of variety there is. The level designers deserve applause as while Galaxy 1 took focus on "Hey look at me, you can walk on the ceiling and all over a round planet with a black hole maybe, defeat several enemies, get a star, fly and collect pieces, occasionally something like a flower or rolling ball," the developers took to not focusing on this and instead focused on, as said earlier, compacted level design brimming with more and a lot more to do with more variety, creativity, and streamlining everything to make it a more fast-paced experience with some ingenious and continually unique level design. The downsides of course being it misses some of the fleshing out of Galaxy 1, the presentation, and the more "Single Game" feel Galaxy had. Galaxy 2 at times feels more like a collection of stages rather than a full experience that all comes together.

As for Sunshine, there's all different types of gamers in the world and I can understand why some wouldn't like it. But I really enjoyed the locales as well as the more "Playground" stages. I am not saying, "Hiss hurr Linearity is bad!" and some of my favorite games are linear games. However, I also really enjoy exploring in games or having more freedom, but I believe the best mix is when you have enough freedom to mess around and enjoy yourself but not enough to get lost and confused or frustrated. In other words, "A Playground," as I said, in which it's not a huge city with less to do but more an open area with things to play in or do for fun or optional but if you have a goal the goal is clear enough to complete and the openness doesn't make it tedious.

[Dr. Mechano]

When Galaxy 2 came out, I think I was more interested in how the story would play out than the gameplay. I liked Galaxy's semi-focus on characters, even if it was mostly Rosalina, Mario and Peach seemed more fleshed out too.

Indeed. Luigi got a fair bit of characterization in Galaxy too- He was portrayed my favorite way; Slightly cowardly, but not a gibbering wreck like more flanderized portrayals of his personality often are. He's cautious and timid, but at the same time wants to prove himself a hero and get some praise and adoration of his own (often exaggerating his own feats to make himself look better), much like his portrayal in the Paper games.

Mario, the man of few words that he is, still felt well-characterized here. His subtle interaction with the rest of the cast still made him more than a mere blank slate protagonist. Hints at his romance with Peach were a lot more open in Galaxy, if Rosalina's comments about her being Mario's "special one" are anything to consider.

I liked the Toad Brigade too. They were nigh useless, but that's the point- They were amusing little side characters who did their best as Mario's clumsy little allies. It was cool seeing Mario get some backup, ineffective though it might have been. I personally found them funny and endearing.

[Saint Nathan]

I liked the Toad Brigade too. They were nigh useless, but that's the point- They were amusing little side characters who did their best as Mario's clumsy little allies. It was cool seeing Mario get some backup, ineffective though it might have been. I personally found them funny and endearing.

I was hoping they'd show up during the final battle with Bowser and start shooting at him or something, would have been an awesome way to add to the fight. Otherwise I just really like them.

except that sleeping one. for some reason he just gets on my fucking nerves so much. what a dick.