Are Mario Games Starting to Decline?

[SuperStingray]

except that sleeping one. for some reason he just gets on my fucking nerves so much. what a dick.

You get hung up over a lot of things, don't you?

[Saint Nathan]

You get hung up over a lot of things, don't you?

[CanofEpicSauce]

Indeed. Luigi got a fair bit of characterization in Galaxy too- He was portrayed my favorite way; Slightly cowardly, but not a gibbering wreck like more flanderized portrayals of his personality often are. He's cautious and timid, but at the same time wants to prove himself a hero and get some praise and adoration of his own (often exaggerating his own feats to make himself look better), much like his portrayal in the Paper games.

Mario, the man of few words that he is, still felt well-characterized here. His subtle interaction with the rest of the cast still made him more than a mere blank slate protagonist. Hints at his romance with Peach were a lot more open in Galaxy, if Rosalina's comments about her being Mario's "special one" are anything to consider.

I liked the Toad Brigade too. They were nigh useless, but that's the point- They were amusing little side characters who did their best as Mario's clumsy little allies. It was cool seeing Mario get some backup, ineffective though it might have been. I personally found them funny and endearing.

Well maybe this is proof that Mario games are starting to have more characterization. If anything this is almost as important as story when it comes to Mario games in my opinion.

Edited December 29, 2010 by CanofEpicSauce

[Sean]

The Mario games (bar the RPGs) are lacking in story (and I mean this in the best possible way, I honestly don't give a shit), but plot and characterization are two different things, and the series is rich in the latter with tons of lovable characters and in one character's case, a backstory. The problem is when people cite Mario's simplistic stories as a problem, which is just bullshit considering the main series games were never founded on the importance of plot.

As I said before, this most likely is because of Sonic fans' expectations of plot in their games, because I have yet to see this complaint about Mario outside of this fanbase. For example, nobody cares that Kirby's storylines amount to nothing more than either "Kirby has to save Dream Land" or "Kirby has to get his strawberry cake back". I mean does anybody here have a problem with it? I sure don't.

[Carbo]

The Mario games (bar the RPGs) are lacking in story (and I mean this in the best possible way, I honestly don't give a shit), but plot and characterization are two different things, and the series is rich in the latter with tons of lovable characters and in one character's case, a backstory. The problem is when people cite Mario's simplistic stories as a problem, which is just bullshit considering the main series games were never founded on the importance of plot.

I don't mind Mario's simplistic stories so much as his recent games don't really cover up the stigma he carries. Once Mario RPG came into life there were always interesting spins on the Princess in a pickle stories, with Mario Sunshine and Mario Galaxy 1 being the main examples here. NSMB Wii I guess has a bit of an excuse, but Galaxy 2 barely has that excuse cause it seems to assume you haven't even played Galaxy 1 and barely has any continuity nods apart from Rosalina's letters and her appearance at the end which felt just tacked on.

I actually like most of Mario's stories in the bigger titles cause there's something slightly fresh to them. But I was hoping Galaxy 2 would maybe build stuff onto Galaxy 1, like maybe instead of Peach, Rosalina could have been kidnapped or something. Instead it's basically typical Mario that's like ohlol space letsago instead of Galaxy 1 which made a kinda big deal about it, which is even more surprising in this case cause Galaxy 1 was practically retconned out of the timeline. As far as I'm aware I'm not even sure Miyamoto liked that game's story, which is a shame.

Still, Galaxy 2 is the only game that I see falls into the problem of a lacking story without an excuse, and the game is still good so I'm not that bothered. I don't really see that as asking for too much. Mario needs little to nothing to give, which is why there isn't that much of a problem. In fact, in Nintendo's case it practically never has been.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Carbo

[Conando]

I really only noticed this issue with story on sites like this too. To be honest, I'd rather it NEVER have a story if it meant going the Sonic route. Colors' story was fine, but all other Sonic stories were pretty much garbage.

[speedfreak]

I don't know, I guess I'm odd. As much I don't think Mario platformers need more interesting plots/characterization, I'd be lying if I said mixing the fantastic gameplay of the 3D Mario games with the comedic story telling of Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi wouldn't be a match made in heaven for me. I mean trim the fat obviously, you wouldn't want as much bloat in a platformer that an RPG gets. It's just that most of the time every Mario character comes off rather dull compared to their RPG counterparts.

[Sean]

I wouldn't be adverse to a main Mario platformer having a plot as "complex" as an RPG title, which (almost) always have satisfying storylines. But as Hero of Fate pointed out above, if people are wanting Mario's games to go the way of Sonic-style storytelling, count me out.

[Dr. Mechano]

I wouldn't be adverse to a main Mario platformer having a plot as "complex" as an RPG title, which (almost) always have satisfying storylines. But as Hero of Fate pointed out above, if people are wanting Mario's games to go the way of Sonic-style storytelling, count me out.

Sonic plots aren't even really that much more "complex" than Mario's. They're just rife with a darker tone and mood.

The plot to Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door is basically parallel to your typical Sonic cliches- Aliens invade, and the heroes and villains search for colorful magic rocks in a race for the fate of the world. The villains then unleash a big sealed monster of death who immediately betrays them and becomes the true final boss. Meanwhile Bowser- the franchise villain- is out hamming it up and having the best lines while still being barely consequential to the overall plot regardless. All of that sounds familiar to the astute Sonic fan, I'm sure.

The difference is that these Mario plots have a much lighter mood, full of self-referential humor and parody to keep things from getting too down in the dumps for our heroes. It's no less serious; The stakes are still the same, but the presentation is a lot bouncier than Sonic's is. Arguably Mario's been even more "serious", with Super Paper Mario dealing with the destruction of every universe ever at stake- But the game was still lighthearted and hilarious, words I couldn't use to describe Sonic until very recently, with the outing of Sonic Colors (Which indeed made me think of Mario as I watched its cut scenes).

[SenEDDtor Missile]

This is something I just thought of: How do you think Mario fans (and most people in general) would react if Nintendo started getting too big for their boots and began decreasing the quality of their games for quick cash?

Think about it. Do you think people would praise it out of denial that the "God of Platforming" was starting to hit a ceiling at last? Or would they accept it and criticize accordingly?

This is hypothetical, so please try not to take offense.

EDIT: can someone remove the other post? My computer decided to lag and I accidentally double posted.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Enigma2

[speedfreak]

Nope, Nintendo fans bitch when they don't like the way a Nintendo series is heading. Just look at the overall reaction to Metroid Other M.

Also Nintendo DO cashcow Mario (various sports, kart racing, RPG's, team ups with third party characters, parties, etc.). They just do it in a classy, and usually high quality manner. I think they know that if quality drops then so will interest eventually.

[Saint Nathan]

Also Nintendo DO cashcow Mario (various sports, kart racing, RPG's, team ups with third party characters, parties, etc.). They just do it in a classy, and usually high quality manner.

High-quality until the Wii.

Mario Kart Wii, Mario Super Sluggers, Mario Party 8, all horrible. You know how before I said that a bad Mario game is still good? These are the only exception. Hopefully they will remain so.

I guess it's more like Mainseries Mario is AMAZINGLY STUPEND-RIFFIC, but Sidesports Mario needs to start picking up the pace.

[TrueBlue]

I'm not really seeing how Mario Kart Wii was horrible, but whatever.

[Saint Nathan]

I'm not really seeing how Mario Kart Wii was horrible, but whatever.

The re-used models from Double Dash, the controls are off JUST ENOUGH to make them awkward, the new tracks range from stupid to okay, and it's a step down from DOUBLE DASH.

[RidersDX]

Really, I don't think the Mario series is declining at all. It's amazing how the Mario series is at the top of the world after 25 years.

And for the story thing, Mario fans don't care for a story. Sonic fans are critical because they like good story telling in games. That's why alot of us prefer Sonic over Mario, we like the direction of Sonic games over Mario games, and that's completely understandable.

Even I have to admit I'm a sucker for good story telling. That's why I actually prefer the Mario RPGs over the Mario platformers, although the platformers are still fun. But I LOVE the Paper Mario series. It has to be one of my most favorite games in the world. With its great story-telling and great gameplay, it's just really fun for me. I love the 64 and GC versions alot, I have yet to get the Wii one though because it looks really different from the previous two. But I do plan on getting it eventually as it looks like it has some good parts to it.

I think that's a reason why Mario is so popular. He's just able to appeal to so many people's tastes.

[SuperStingray]

The re-used models from Double Dash, the controls are off JUST ENOUGH to make them awkward, the new tracks range from stupid to okay, and it's a step down from DOUBLE DASH.

That stuff was mostly fine for what I care; I even liked the Wii Wheel. It was more that they somehow found a way to make the items even more unbalanced that got to me.

Really, I don't think the Mario series is declining at all. It's amazing how the Mario series is at the top of the world after 25 years.

And for the story thing, Mario fans don't care for a story. Sonic fans are critical because they like good story telling in games. That's why alot of us prefer Sonic over Mario, we like the direction of Sonic games over Mario games, and that's completely understandable.

Even I have to admit I'm a sucker for good story telling. That's why I actually prefer the Mario RPGs over the Mario platformers, although the platformers are still fun. But I LOVE the Paper Mario series. It has to be one of my most favorite games in the world. With its great story-telling and great gameplay, it's just really fun for me. I love the 64 and GC versions alot, I have yet to get the Wii one though because it looks really different from the previous two. But I do plan on getting it eventually as it looks like it has some good parts to it.

I think that's a reason why Mario is so popular. He's just able to appeal to so many people's tastes.

And that's pretty much the crux of why I think Mario has the upper leg over Sonic. Each of Mario's games takes an idea and sticks with it, maintaining a proper focus so that people can follow the developer's core vision in each game. Sega seems to have the need to dilute Sonic's qualities to appeal to everyone at once and end up appealing to very few in the end. In fact, there are some exceptions that prove the rule, as Mario's worst games seem to have that same problem, i.e. Mario Kart Wii as mentioned above.

Edited December 30, 2010 by SuperStingray

[Candescence]

High-quality until the Wii.

Mario Kart Wii, Mario Super Sluggers, Mario Party 8, all horrible. You know how before I said that a bad Mario game is still good? These are the only exception. Hopefully they will remain so.

I guess it's more like Mainseries Mario is AMAZINGLY STUPEND-RIFFIC, but Sidesports Mario needs to start picking up the pace.

[Saint Nathan]

Someone forgot about Strikers Charged, which is freaking awesome.

[Mick]

I don't think so. Mario games have not lost their spark. They're still pretty cool. They all have some unique to offer. I kinda thought they were starting to decline when they re-released Super Mario Brothers for the DS or whatever. They just added some neato stuff and it was made for a whole new generation to enjoy.

[Conando]

The re-used models from Double Dash, the controls are off JUST ENOUGH to make them awkward, the new tracks range from stupid to okay, and it's a step down from DOUBLE DASH.

Don't know what you're on about with the controls. Wii Remote+Nunchuk is perfect.

Also: You haven't played Strikers Charged? Do it. Come on, man. It really is awesome, and I don't even like Soccer.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Hero Of Christmas

[Saint Nathan]

Don't know what you're on about with the controls. Wii Remote+Nunchuk is perfect.

The whole "turn but ahahahaha not really wait five seconds" thing, sort of annoying.

[SuperStingray]

Also: You haven't played Strikers Charged? Do it. Come on, man. It really is awesome, and I don't even like Soccer.

It's better than soccer. For one thing it's possible to get more than two goals in one game.

And what do you have against Super Sluggers?

Edited December 30, 2010 by SuperStingray

[Saint Nathan]

And what do you have against Super Sluggers?

A video game's core content should not boil down to shaking a remote wildly for half of the time, and the other half shaking it wildly at a specific time. When I can do this to beat the computer, and everyone in my house, there is an issue. The gameplay is boring because there's no goddamn reason to do anything but shake wildly, and the winner is just the person who shook the wildly-ist.

The rest of Super Sluggers is a really boring adventure mode of sorts.

[Noir]

This is something I just thought of: How do you think Mario fans (and most people in general) would react if Nintendo started getting too big for their boots and began decreasing the quality of their games for quick cash?

Think about it. Do you think people would praise it out of denial that the "God of Platforming" was starting to hit a ceiling at last? Or would they accept it and criticize accordingly?

For one thing I don't think that would ever happen as long as Shiggy-san is around. He wouldn't let the quality of Mario games fall like that.

And if it did people would definitely be bitching about it. Twilight Princess and Other M were both steps down from their predecessors and the fans made it more than crystal clear that they weren't pleased.

[Chooch]

I really liked the gameplay of Metroid Other M so I wouldn't consider it a step down at all. Just different in a good away.

I didn't care for the Prime series much, so I appreciated the changed of pace.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Chooch