Which criticisms towards the series do you disagree with?

[123654]

One thing that really pisses me off is when someone criticizes something in the series, but if you point out that another series did the same thing, they'll act like you're an idiot for making the comparison.

For example, someone might criticize the series for having too many spinoffs. You could say "Mario has lots of spinoffs," and they'll probably call you on making an idiotic statement.

[SuperStingray]

About 90% of everything mentioned already. But if I had to add something new to the pile, it would be these:

- "Shadow always sucked." People only really seemed to take issue with Shadow after his titular installment. As for SA2, I'm reminded of Kratos in God of War and how despite being a revenge-fueled monster, his development at least made him an easy to follow and understandable. That would be SA2 and Battle. After that, he just started using his past as an excuse to continue existing rather than extrapolate any character development from it. That would be Shadow and, to a lesser extent, Heroes.

- "Mephiles was a shit villain." This is sort of building on the other one. Yes, trying to justify anything about 06's story is kind of like drinking a bottle of piss and saying "it's better than most piss I've tasted" but I still think the eldritch, transdimensional bastard doesn't get enough credit. People often pull the "recolor" card on him, but I think it works in this case because he acts as a foil to Shadow; a manifestation of what he could have been if he hadn't changed his vengeful ways. I admit that neither of them would be interesting on their own in that storyline, but their relationship is a diamond in the dust that game is.

[HyperPeanut]

Can't believe no ones mentioned this one yet.

-Sonic doesn't belong in a human world.

That is a concept that can easily work if done right. Just because it's a human world doesn't mean they can't have the surrealistic worlds that existed in the Genesis days. As far as level design goes, I believe that they were able to be both realistic and surrealistic in both the Sonic Adventure games and in Unleashed(especially in SA1).

[Dr. Crusher]

"Mephiles was a shit villain." This is sort of building on the other one. Yes, trying to justify anything about 06's story is kind of like drinking a bottle of piss and saying "it's better than most piss I've tasted" but I still think the eldritch, transdimensional bastard doesn't get enough credit. People often pull the "recolor" card on him, but I think it works in this case because he acts as a foil to Shadow; a manifestation of what he could have been if he hadn't changed his vengeful ways. I admit that neither of them would be interesting on their own in that storyline, but their relationship is a diamond in the dust that game is.

I think he gets too much credit.

And the relationship would have been fair enough if the game in question was Shadow's own, not one that had already succeeded in making Sonic look like the most unimportant redshirt ever. This would have been perfectly fine if it was replacing the Black Arms story. But it didn't.

I like the basic concept of a cowardly villain who makes deals a tricks, using clones and minions to do all the fighting... that's a decent concept. But alas, the relationship with Iblis/Solaris and his killing of Sonic ruined everything. Alas. It also would have helped if, yes, he had his own form. Keep the crystal appearance, but be more... I dunno, reptillian? Something simple. I know he's meant to "copy Shadow's dark side oooohhhh" but I still think it's a lame excuse.

But in any case, I see just as many Mephy fans and clubs as I do Shadow/Metal Sonic/Amy/Nazo ones. The pain doubles when you're a Robotnik fan, because every time you go anywhere there is always one person who has to point out that Mephiles was the one to kill Sonic, with the additional replies of "Yeah! Take that Egghead!" or "He should replace 'Buttnik!" That s*** gets tiring.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Dr. Crusher

[RootingForTheEmpire]

I think he gets too much credit.

And the relationship would have been fair enough if the game in question was Shadow's own, not one that had already succeeded in making Sonic look like the most unimportant redshirt ever. This would have been perfectly fine if it was replacing the Black Arms story. But it didn't.

I like the basic concept of a cowardly villain who makes deals a tricks, using clones and minions to do all the fighting... that's a decent concept. But alas, the relationship with Iblis/Solaris and his killing of Sonic ruined everything. Alas. It also would have helped if, yes, he had his own form. Keep the crystal appearance, but be more... I dunno, reptillian? Something simple. I know he's meant to "copy Shadow's dark side oooohhhh" but I still think it's a lame excuse.

But in any case, I see just as many Mephy fans and clubs as I do Shadow/Metal Sonic/Amy/Nazo ones. The pain doubles when you're a Robotnik fan, because every time you go anywhere there is always one person who has to point out that Mephiles was the one to kill Sonic, with the additional replies of "Yeah! Take that Egghead!" or "He should replace 'Buttnik!" That s*** gets tiring.

This. I can't stand it when people propose their favourite crappy recolour or generic monster replace Eggman as villain. ¬¬

[123654]

"Mephiles was a shit villain." This is sort of building on the other one. Yes, trying to justify anything about 06's story is kind of like drinking a bottle of piss and saying "it's better than most piss I've tasted" but I still think the eldritch, transdimensional bastard doesn't get enough credit. People often pull the "recolor" card on him, but I think it works in this case because he acts as a foil to Shadow; a manifestation of what he could have been if he hadn't changed his vengeful ways. I admit that neither of them would be interesting on their own in that storyline, but their relationship is a diamond in the dust that game is.

I think Mephiles was a very interesting character with a very interesting concept. My problem with him is just the way his role in the story plays out. Namely his convoluted plan.

[Vertekins]

Mephiles suffers from Complexity Addiction. The Idiot Plot caters to Mephiles' whims, which makes SONIC '06's story even worse and the character even more of a Scrappy. Clearly he's too stupid/vain to do the prudent thing and take matters into his own hands from the beginning. Complexity Addiction is just a poor attempt at making a villain far cleverer than they actually are when everyone knows that the cleverer thing to do almost all the time is to go straight for it without needlessly convoluted and complex plans. I think most of the time, Complexity Addiction is used very poorly in stories. Mephiles is no exception.

[Diogenes]

- "Mephiles was a shit villain."

The thing about Mephy is that the basic idea behind him is okay, but pretty much everything else is against him. Preying on the antihero's dark side, trying to get him to turn, and functioning as a sort of "evil mirror", while it's hardly original it's a decent trope. But it's all dragged down by shoddy execution and poor timing/positioning. Shoddy execution, we can all agree on. The recolor thing, it'd be justifiable (if mildly annoying) if it was just a matter of being a recolor, but that he's the evil recolor of a (formerly) evil recolor turns it into a joke. Plus they've got Mephy trying to pull double duty as Shadow's personal antagonist and the main antagonist of the game, and both suffer. His personality is mostly generic "evil", his overall plan is borderline nonsensical, his devotion for Shadow keeps him entirely out of Sonic's view (and he's the main character of the series), and him popping up and shanking Sonic is the stupidest fucking thing.

-Sonic doesn't belong in a human world.

And the stupidest thing about this complaint is, by series canon, he's always been in a "human world". Everything from Green Hill to Doomsday takes place on Earth (well okay Doomsday is in space but you know what I mean). Not to mention there were modern cities seen in some levels, and a human as an antagonist from day one...the complaint doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[Yoyo]

One of the most annoying complaints I hear is, "Sonic is too slow", which is made worse by the fact that another common complain it is, "Sonic is too fast!". Well, which is it? He is he too slow now days, or is he too fast?

The other complaint I'm super tired of is that there's too many characters. "We need less characters!", "We need to get rid of ALL characters with the exception of Sonic!". Very, annoying.

And yeah, I like Mephiles too. I think eh's is a pretty cool guy. eh kills sonic and doesn’t afraid of anything…

[Dr. Crusher]

Mephiles suffers from Complexity Addiction. The Idiot Plot caters to Mephiles' whims, which makes SONIC '06's story even worse and the character even more of a Scrappy. Clearly he's too stupid/vain to do the prudent thing and take matters into his own hands from the beginning. Complexity Addiction is just a poor attempt at making a villain far cleverer than they actually are when everyone knows that the cleverer thing to do almost all the time is to go straight for it without needlessly convoluted and complex plans. I think most of the time, Complexity Addiction is used very poorly in stories. Mephiles is no exception.

The worst part is that despite all this, Mephiles still succeeds in killing Sonic, which just cements certain views that he's undeniably the most "cunning" and "intelligent" Sonic villain. Bah.

This is yet another reason why even Doom's higher on my list. He may have randomly paralyzed all the other characters as the plot demands, but at least he didn't straight up kill any of them.

Besides, complicated plans usually only look impressive for five seconds.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Dr. Crusher

[Scott]

When people say SEGA should add this and that as if they're right about everything......

I mean, during the classics, did SEGA ever take fan reactions for the sequals, fuck no! They did what they thought was right and continued the series, when they bring out a new game, just fucking enjoy it, if you don't...so what? they're still gonna make money.

When people hate Sonic 4 for not being exactly like the originals:

It's not perfect, I know, It's not even the high point of Sonic's career on 2010, but instead an overpriced Sonic title, and only one episode of the full thing, the physics are not like the original...big woop, it plays quite similar to the classics which is exactly what I'd rather have, even adding new things while using rehashes of classic bosses and zones, but I'm sure SEGA have a motif for doing so? Sure...it hyped up to be brilliant, and (for me) it did the job right, thats my opinion, if your one of the people who think it was utterly bad, a disgrace to the series or whatever....well, maybe your just blinded by all the modern games to not see what a breath of fresh air it is (:

one last one....

When people overate Sonic colours for the wii and foreshadow the DS version:

I ain't played the Wii version, but meh, people tend to ignore the DS version because they simply think it;s like Sonic Rush, well it kinda is, but it kinda isn't :/

It's like Sonic Rush meets Sonic 4, where you get the boost, but you must destroy enemies or collect standard wisps to fill your boost meter instead of simply spamming crappy tricks, with an improved Homing attack with an aiming riticule or aim for a spring adds to a more effeciant and speedy sonic game, and with the exclusive wisps, it's worth a go at the most and even more with the other characters making cameo's and getting to hear they're voices is great

[Dr. Crusher]

When people overate Sonic colours for the wii and foreshadow the DS version:

I ain't played the Wii version, but meh, people tend to ignore the DS version because they simply think it;s like Sonic Rush, well it kinda is, but it kinda isn't :/

It's like Sonic Rush meets Sonic 4, where you get the boost, but you must destroy enemies or collect standard wisps to fill your boost meter instead of simply spamming crappy tricks, with an improved Homing attack with an aiming riticule or aim for a spring adds to a more effeciant and speedy sonic game, and with the exclusive wisps, it's worth a go at the most and even more with the other characters making cameo's and getting to hear they're voices is great

Yeah, that might work against you in the long run.

At the same time, I'm personally seeing more "Sonic Colours is overrated" cases than.. well, people actually overrating the game. I'd say the DS Colours gets equal enough praise. I myself prefer the Wii version, but I do like the DS version.

I'm unsure about the characters' cameos. I'm okay with them for the most part since they don't get in the way or anything, but on the other hand some of their "reasons" for coming to Robotnik's park strikes me as odd. (And don't get me started on the (next) reviving of the constant Silver/Blaze theories.) Still, it also revealed (even if only in mentioning) that Marine still exists, so that's nice. And... alright, seeing Omega and Orbot/Cubot in the one image was kickass I guess. I get interested in the strangest things.

Also...

Mother Wisp.

I'm sorry, but if other Sonic fans have various things to overreact about on a daily basis, then I can overreact about mine as well.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Dr. Crusher

[Scott]

Yeah, that might work against you in the long run.

Also...

Mother Wisp.

I'm sorry, but if other Sonic fans have various things to overreact about on a daily basis, then I can overreact about mine as well.

For the first thing, yeah, thats why I put "meh" between it, but I'm sure it doesn't play much different from Sonic Unleashed, with the exception of wisps.

But yeah, the thing in the spoiler was just a weak addition to keep the game going, and to me, when I unlocked it, given how the main story ended, this extra bit just didn't seem to make sense to me O.o

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The worst part is that despite all this, Mephiles still succeeds in killing Sonic, which just cements certain views that he's undeniably the most "cunning" and "intelligent" Sonic villain. Bah.

But anyone can kill Sonic when his guard is down.

Now try the same thing with Super Sonic, who doesn't have to watch his guard at all thanks to his invincibility...Oh wait, Eggman did that!

Edited January 30, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[RootingForTheEmpire]

But anyone can kill Sonic when his guard is down.

Now try the same thing with Super Sonic, who doesn't have to watch his guard at all thanks to his invincibility...Oh wait, Eggman did that!

Knuckles did it too, and it's debatable whether it was more impressive or not. However, I question how much his punching out Super Sonic even counts, comparatively. I mean, this was the classic era, wherein fat men outran supersonic hedgehogs.

[Dr. Crusher]

But anyone can kill Sonic when his guard is down.

Now try the same thing with Super Sonic, who doesn't have to watch his guard at all thanks to his invincibility...Oh wait, Eggman did that!

Unfortunately even such a feat as that doesn't matter. Mephiles just gets more respect regardless. Almost no one talks about Robotnik depowering Super Sonic compared to amount of times everyone goes "Haha Mephiles did in one minute what Eggman failed to do all these years!"

You have a guy that makes all these machines, including doomsday mechs and empowered suits and giant amusement parks in outer space, all with no powers whatsoever... and yet it's the resident overpowered Dan Green-voiced demon that gets the glory just by firing dark fireballs and cheap lasers.

He doesn't even have a base. You're telling me that after all the Death Eggs and Pyramid Bases we have wonderfully enjoyed it's the begger in the street that gets bowed down to? I just don't get it.

[Rusty Spy]

You have a guy that makes all these machines, including doomsday mechs and empowered suits and giant amusement parks in outer space, all with no powers whatsoever... and yet it's the resident overpowered Dan Green-voiced demon that gets the glory just by firing dark fireballs and cheap lasers.

He doesn't even have a base. You're telling me that after all the Death Eggs and Pyramid Bases we have wonderfully enjoyed it's the begger in the street that gets bowed down to? I just don't get it.

Because Eggman didn't think to shoot him.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Black Spy

[Dr. Crusher]

Because Eggman didn't think to shoot him.

Pfft. Many villains make that mistake, and they still have golden pedestals. Those wacky guys could have easily fitted such an event. It's not like he wasn't capable of doing it - he held a gun to Amy's head in SA2 after all.

But no. It had to be the guy that could shoot lasers out of his hands.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Dr. Crusher

[Blacklightning]

And the stupidest thing about this complaint is, by series canon, he's always been in a "human world". Everything from Green Hill to Doomsday takes place on Earth (well okay Doomsday is in space but you know what I mean). Not to mention there were modern cities seen in some levels, and a human as an antagonist from day one...the complaint doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I feel this complaint has been taken out of context somewhat.

While yes, there are people who do genuinely feel that way, whenever I see talk of Human-World and Not-Human-World it usually tends to be moreso in the sense that humans outnumber the furs so drastically in the grand scheme of things, which isn't inherently a bad thing but it creates this strange atmosphere where Sonic and co are practically aliens in their own world and not a single person thinks odd of it. I know if I saw a walking anthropomorphic technicolour hedgehog just casually strutting down my neighbourhood, my reaction would be either "OH MY GOD A TALKING ANIMAL", "OH MY GOD A NATIONAL HERO" or "OH MY GOD WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT THING", but nobody ever seems to think of Sonic's presence as odd or even particularly surprising, which is something I just can't comprehend.

While I can't claim to speak for anyone directly, I'd like to think most of us would rather some NPC furs were characterized to help balance it out a bit and make Sonic and co seem a bit less out of place. Though if they didn't and instead compromised with some of the NPCs actually reacting appropriately, I'd be perfectly fine with that. Either way, it's only a minor atmosphere issue anyway, I doubt too many people are losing sleep over it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I feel this complaint has been taken out of context somewhat.

While yes, there are people who do genuinely feel that way, whenever I see talk of Human-World and Not-Human-World it usually tends to be moreso in the sense that humans outnumber the furs so drastically in the grand scheme of things, which isn't inherently a bad thing but it creates this strange atmosphere where Sonic and co are practically aliens in their own world and not a single person thinks odd of it.

While I can't claim to speak for anyone directly, I'd like to think most of us would rather some NPC furs were characterized to help balance it out a bit and make Sonic and co seem a bit less out of place. Though if they didn't and instead compromised with some of the NPCs actually reacting appropriately, I'd be perfectly fine with that. Either way, it's only a minor atmosphere issue anyway, I doubt too many people are losing sleep over it.

Were that the case, there's absolutely zero doubt that the people criticizing the "NO HUMANS" argument would be in complete agreement to that.

However, it's not exactly the case, and either for two reasons:

-They really mean "NO HUMANS", while giving Eggman a free pass. And this is the most common one I've seen flat out said with no ambiguities to what they mean. Obviously, it's the one a lot of us view as stupid.

-They're not being specific, and completely leave out them wanting more anthros to balance out the humans seen. This is rare, and I remember seeing it on one occasion so I can vouch for this. However, these people need to iron out the ambiguities so that they're not see as the previous one above.

I want to see more anthros as well, but there's a big difference in wanting more anthros and wanting the human population bar one of them to disappear and never return.

[Gamenerd]

This isn't something that's purely a criticism of the Sonic series, but definately a development criticism - the criticism I disagree with is criticism levelled at Dimps recently. Dimps seem to be a love/hate element of the Sonic series as of late, and personally I think they deserve some slack considering how they've been the only consistent thread of high standard Sonic since the Adventure games, even through the worst eras of Sonic.

Dimps themselves seem to be highly capable of delivering 2D gaming (not so sure about 3D gaming considering Unleashed Wii), and any signs of lower quality games seem to be caused by problems from external or higher up sources; Sonic Advance 2 and 3 had their own good elements and only suffered from being too experimental compared to the first game. The Rush games were amazing, despite not being 'classic' 2D Sonic, and Sonic Pocket Adventure was awesome, if slightly too derivative of the classics. Even Sonic 4 is great, and I'd surmise that the only problems with it seem to be influence from Sonic Team themselves, not to mention budget, time and size constraints.

I mean, Dimps has come close to creating a decent Sonic 4 in the past. Sonic Advance, combined with the better elements of SPA/SAdv2/SAdv3 and with the removed elements of S3K added back in (act transitions, character plots, multiple bonus stages, Super Sonic etc.) would have made a superb Sonic 4. When I first played Neo Green Hill for the first time, it screamed Sonic 4 to me, and if it weren't for its shorter length and lack of defining features that Sonic 3 & Knuckles, they could've used that name for the game and I'd have had no problem with it. Dimps have proven themselves to make decent physics engines since Sonic Pocket Adventure too, so I genuinely can't see why they'd have done such a botched job with Sonic 4 other than some sort of factors out of their control.

tl;dr I still think Dimps are great and I think their shortcomings are down to the environment they've been thrust into by becoming regulars of Sonic game development.

[ChikaBoing]

I don't think Sonic Team is the reason why Dimps games turn out the way they are. For all games, they did the programming. Only with Advance 1,2, Rush and 4, Sonic Team had the most involvment, but it's mostly art-direction and Music.

[Rusty Spy]

Dimps themselves seem to be highly capable of delivering 2D gaming (not so sure about 3D gaming considering Unleashed Wii), and any signs of lower quality games seem to be caused by problems from external or higher up sources

That doesn't excuse all their games bar Sonic 4 having bland at best, horrendous at worst level design, which pretty much killed all 3 Advance games for me. When the levels aren't feeling drawn out and monotonous, they're making me want to split my cartridge in half from the constant cheap traps and pitfalls, and bad enemy placement present in nearly every game they've done. The only reason Rush felt any better than the Advance games was because they masked the bad enemies and pits by creating the boost which is basically infinite invincibility and making the levels as straight forward as possible and with hardly any platforming.

DIMPS are average at best. Their games never really leave much of an impact and are mostly bland and uninteresting.

[Gamenerd]

To each their own I guess, but Sonic Advance 3 aside I've always enjoyed Dimps' level layouts/designs. Sonic Advance and Sonic Pocket Adventure in particular had great layouts in my opinion (perhaps with a few too many bottomless pits at the end of Sonic Advance), and all 3 Dimps games on the DS seemed fair enough to me, bar the ridiculous difficulty of the Rush special stages without using the pause trick. Even Sonic 4 had decent level layouts in my opinion - my only actual beef with Sonic 4 is that Episode I is absolutely tiny even for a downloadable game, and that what there is of it is very familiar to Sonic 2.

So I guess it's down to interpretation, really. I'll agree that Advance 3 is tedium central and I can't actually remember much of Sonic Advance 2, but I played through SPA, SAdv, Rush and Colours DS recently and I rarely had any problems with the level layouts or object placements.

[Vertekins]

- he held a gun to Amy's head in SA2 after all.

What I find particularly striking about this is that people are all too happy to gloss over Eggman's villainy, especially in this case, in favor of bringing up his ineptitudes. It's even funnier considering how controversial Shadow's wielding of a gun was and yet the good doctor did it, ooohhh, about 4 years earlier?