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Chaosmaster8753

Which criticisms towards the series do you disagree with?

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It's even funnier considering how controversial Shadow's wielding of a gun was and yet the good doctor did it, ooohhh, about 4 years earlier?
I'd imagine having an entire game dedicated to it in Shadow's case had something to do with that. Comparing a whole game to Eggman's sole cutscene in SA2 wielding a gun isn't exactly fair. Even that said, you can at least argue that it was somewhat in-character for the ol' Doc, you know, the guy who doesn't have any special powers and uses tech like that to get things done (even though I'm a bit surprised he didn't just tape Amy to the barrel of his Volkan Cannon instead). Shadow on the other hand had the most deliberately vauge (and consequently, most overpowered) abilities in the entire franchise in addition to most of Sonic's abilities and could get by just fine with that, so the thought of giving him of all people firearms and practically requiring him to use them, as if his Chaos powers aren't enough to get by, isn't difficult to consider completely unthinkable.

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I'd imagine having an entire game dedicated to it in Shadow's case had something to do with that. Comparing a whole game to Eggman's sole cutscene in SA2 wielding a gun isn't exactly fair. Even that said, you can at least argue that it was somewhat in-character for the ol' Doc, you know, the guy who doesn't have any special powers and uses tech like that to get things done (even though I'm a bit surprised he didn't just tape Amy to the barrel of his Volkan Cannon instead). Shadow on the other hand had the most deliberately vauge (and consequently, most overpowered) abilities in the entire franchise in addition to most of Sonic's abilities and could get by just fine with that, so the thought of giving him of all people firearms and practically requiring him to use them, as if his Chaos powers aren't enough to get by, isn't difficult to consider completely unthinkable.

SA2 was full of guns. Guns attached to Tails' and Eggman's mechs, guns attached the GUN's robots and mechs. Heck, even the entire world is threatened by what effectively is a giant gun! I completely agree with you about ShTH's controversy and ridicule coming from the gun's unnercersary insertion and how it as clearly put in the game for the sole purpose of making Shadow look cool without any logic sense in accordance with his abilities but guns in any form have always had a taboo attached to them and SA2's showings of blatant gun use pre-dated ShTH and yet were never really controversial. You'd think that a fanbase that objected so radically to Shadow's use of a photorealistic weapon aside from the pointlessness of it's addition would do the same when Eggman pulled one out and aimed it at Amy and Tails.

And make no mistake, SA2's themes could have easily have been seen as controversial if not more controversial in hindsight due to it's plot revolving around what effectively is/are a terrorist plot and a pair of terrorists who are trying to enforce a dictatorship and are sowing terror in order to accomplish it. Shadow was a terrorist in Shadow the Hedgehog's more evil paths (Nuing Central City, Attacking the President's aircraft etc.) but SA2 had terrorist themes before it.

Shadow the Hedgehog accomplished "Darker and Edgier" in a ":rolleyes:" way but SA2 pioneered "Darker and Edgier" in the Sonic series in a way that could be so easily controversial and indeed is to an extent amongst those who think that the Sonic series should be more sunshine and daisies even if that is kind of misguided as the Sonic series was never explicitly sunshine and daisies, having serious aspects to it's plots across it's continuities from the very early years.

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I disagree with the argument that the series is bad because of a bloated cast. Just because there are lots of characters in the series does not mean they are the hindrance to the success of the games. They only need to be handled better. No one wants to be forced to treasure hunt as Knuckles, but do we need him to be removed from the series altogether? I raise the same discontentment towards the hatred against Big the Cat. He had one instance of bad gameplay and it's plagued him for life, to the point where people forget that he is strong enough to throw cars and wield a fishing pole with a gargantuan flaming mace attached to it. He doesn't need to be playable, but he should not be ousted from the series either.

The cast needs to be handled better, not removed.

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No one wants to be forced to treasure hunt as Knuckles

Do not speak for everyone. : /

Speaking on the topic, I'm terribly annoyed that some members of the fandom have a bad habit of imposing all that "real Sonic gameplay" is just running, and everything that dares to differ, immediately becomes shit.

Edited by Kiberbot

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Do not speak for everyone. : /

Speaking on the topic, I'm terribly annoyed that some members of the fandom have a bad habit of imposing all that "real Sonic gameplay" is just running, and everything that dares to differ, immediately becomes shit.

Because mech shooting and werehog brawling is totally Sonic related. Seriously though, it's about genre, not whether its crappy or not. Sonic is a platformer with speed and forward momentum.

And, yes, "real Sonic gameplay" is running and platforming. You can like the other stuff, but you can't make me agree with its inclusion.

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Do not speak for everyone. : /

Speaking on the topic, I'm terribly annoyed that some members of the fandom have a bad habit of imposing all that "real Sonic gameplay" is just running, and everything that dares to differ, immediately becomes shit.

Not really. Its just it was poorly implemented.

Most people forced themselves through said stages, just so they could play the next Sonic stage.

Also, nobody would care if the alternate gameplay styles were optional. They shouldn't have to play in Knuckles' treasure hunting stages if they don't want to.

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Not really. Its just it was poorly implemented.

Most people forced themselves through said stages, just so they could play the next Sonic stage.

Also, nobody would care if the alternate gameplay styles were optional. They shouldn't have to play in Knuckles' treasure hunting stages if they don't want to.

Some people would certainly still complain (things are just that way) but I agree for the most part, if anything, complaints will certainly be greatly reduced. Optional is the way to go.

Although, considering little gameplay variations such as snowboarding and the occasional car racing bit (like Twinkle Park) it seems that we need to be more specific in how we handle the term "gimmick." Perhaps little level-themed diversions or powerups are acceptable. You're still in the main game, and it's a little thing tossed in to shake things up, without there being a huge gameplay difference. Otherwise, yeah, no more werehogs or fishing levels please. I bought a Sonic game to play Sonic. It's like buying a deck of Uno cards and having to play Monopoly somewhere in the middle... it just isn't right.

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Also, nobody would care if the alternate gameplay styles were optional.
Yes they would, and rightly so. While they'd probably consider it an improvement over being forced to play it, there's still the problem that a full 2/3 of SA2 is gameplay they didn't want, gameplay that doesn't belong in the series.

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Because mech shooting and werehog brawling is totally Sonic related. Seriously though, it's about genre, not whether its crappy or not. Sonic is a platformer with speed and forward momentum.

And, yes, "real Sonic gameplay" is running and platforming. You can like the other stuff, but you can't make me agree with its inclusion.

That's your opinion, the opinion of people like you, but it is not unconditional truth eventually. I think differently, and I'm not alone believe so. Just running and play as Sonic, or the alternative styles of gameplay as other characters, this is just opinions and personal preferences. I never put the games in any rigid style of gameplay, I was just playing, and I did not care whether it looks like a retro or not, and because of that I enjoyed it. You guys are creating too much difficulty because of this "true gameplay."

Edited by Kiberbot

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"The camera is broken in the Adventure series and Sonic '06"

Adding a whole new dimension of graphical intuitiveness and cinematic wizardry to make the 3D Sonic games the most dynamic and exciting titles that they can possibly be, all the while adding to their playability and speed and detracting precisely zero from the overall experience is a fairly impressive feat, and one that Sonic Team encapsulated with perfection in the camera configurations of the Adventure titles and Sonic '06. Though the occasional glitch does occur in the last title of the three (so what else is new) in relation to the positioning and stability of the camera, I always have and always will maintain the belief that a more on-rails, linearised camera system provides a far more polished-seeming and tidy gameplay experience, leaving the the player to focus almost exclusively what is most important: the game's platforming and speed aspects.

It is indeed true that Takashi Iizuka and his band of merry men first implemented an automated camera in Sonic Adventure due to complaints that a traditional front-facing third-person camera made the game appear slower than desired in the testing phases, and executed this vision of all-round gameplay and visual refinement fantastically well - hell, I'd go so far to say that it's nigh-on flawless, unless of course you deliberately go looking to break it. And breaking something purposefully and complaining about the result is, quite frankly, idiotic, and a vastly innacurate representation of what the true gameplay experience holds - which, in this case, is quite close to cinematic perfection.

Edited by eXtaticus

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"The camera is broken in the Adventure series and Sonic '06"
I can't speak for SA1/2 because my memory is a bit fuzzy on how the camera works, but the camera in Sonic '06 was pretty bad. Not just in that it experienced glitches and twitches and couldn't handle dragging along walls very well, but because even when it was working just fine it still essentially required you to attack enemies that were completely offscreen a good 50-60% of the time. And if a camera isn't focused on the action at hand, particularly when it requires you to essentially juggle the camera stick and the face buttons to recitfy it, then a camera generally isn't doing its job right.

And breaking something purposefully and complaining about the result is, quite frankly, idiotic, and a vastly innacurate representation of what the true gameplay experience holds
Excuse me? If a player goes against the game's expectations and breaks it as a result, that's not the fault of the player for doing so in the first place, that's the fault of the developer for not testing their goddamned game properly. A developer should expect a player to think outside the box like that and design their game accordingly, even if it's just to remove those kinds of exploits outright - but if the very stability of a game essentially depends on the player playing the game in such a specific manner, then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong in the design process which should have been fixed while they had the chance.

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all the while adding to their playability and speed and detracting precisely zero from the overall experience

I was playing Sonic Adventure 2 Battle just a few days ago. There are certain levels in the game where you are lucky if you can see what is going on 2/3rds of the time. And the slower you travel, the worse it becomes (meaning it props up much more in the non-Sonic/Shadow levels).

And breaking something purposefully and complaining about the result is, quite frankly, idiotic, and a vastly innacurate representation of what the true gameplay experience holds

I played a round of City Escape when I picked up the game a few days ago. There was a section where I walked to the right when the game wanted me to go to the left. There was no intent to break anything. I wasn't trying to screw with things. I just saw a poster, and wanted to take a look at it. Four seconds later, when the camera found out I wasn't going to the left and caught up to my character, I was finally able to see the poster I was looking for. This is admittedly the worse example with the game's camera I've ever seen (and I also wasn't able to recreate it to that extent on a subsequent playthrough), but it still happened.

Tornado has been kidnapped by Ninjas. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the Tornado?

Edited by Tornado

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Anyone who says Sonic Adventure 2 has a perfect camera hasn't played Crazy Gadget. I swear there's about a 90% chance of the camera utterly going NUTS during the final coloured platform in the last room. It is always foreshadowed with the camera not swooping out dynamically during the J shaped grind rail after the large green room with three switches to choose from - and the camera flicking round to look at Sonic's face rather than where he's going before you activate the gravity switch to travel to said final coloured block platform (the T shaped one with a laser shooting artificial chaos in the middle). The glitch in question sees the camera focusing on a close-up of Sonic's feet and relentlessly staring at a particular point on the block in the same way it focuses on the boss during fights.

Of course I went to record footage of the offending glitch and every time it didn't happen. 8I During my normal playthroughs it's a rare treat to have the camera act normally there. Dunno what it is I do when I'm not worrying about recording that's different that would lead to it.

Edited by JezMM

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Anyone who says Sonic Adventure 2 has a perfect camera hasn't played Crazy Gadget. I swear there's about a 90% chance of the camera utterly going NUTS during the final coloured platform in the last room. It is always foreshadowed with the camera not swooping out dynamically during the J shaped grind rail after the large green room with three switches to choose from - and the camera flicking round to look at Sonic's face rather than where he's going before you activate the gravity switch to travel to said final coloured block platform (the T shaped one with a laser shooting artificial chaos in the middle). The glitch in question sees the camera focusing on a close-up of Sonic's feet and relentlessly staring at a particular point on the block in the same way it focuses on the boss during fights.

Of course I went to record footage of the offending glitch and every time it didn't happen. 8I During my normal playthroughs it's a rare treat to have the camera act normally there. Dunno what it is I do when I'm not worrying about recording that's different that would lead to it.

I agree. The camera in SA2 is not perfect and Crazy Gadget is a nightmare (and for me, it's not just the camera).

Strangely, I've never encountered this glitch your talking about (At least, I don't think I have).

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Do not speak for everyone. : /

Speaking on the topic, I'm terribly annoyed that some members of the fandom have a bad habit of imposing all that "real Sonic gameplay" is just running, and everything that dares to differ, immediately becomes shit.

THANK YOU.

Real Sonic game play is not purely running from A to B. Tails can fly, Knuckles can climb walls, and there's been multiple Sonic racing games. They've been doing this for a long time. To say that throwing in any kind of alternate gameplay is going to turn the game into crap is silly. It's like saying Pure Mario gameplay is platforming. Um... No. Super Mario RPG? (GIANT CAKE FIGHT! XD) Mario Kart? Mario Party? Sure platforming is the most iconic, but there are others.

Has any one played Tails Adventure? It's an adventure game starring Tails that was released for Game Gear. It's on the Sonic Gems Collection and it's a very fun game. It has nothing to do with running but instead Tails goes though levels finding various power ups to help him succeed on his journey. I find it more enjoyable than the other Sonic GG games, even Triple Trouble.

Alternate gameplay styles can work in Sonic. They just have to be well done. Sonic Heroes had good ideas and horrible execution. Sonic Adventure and its sequel for the most part had really enjoyable additional gameplay. The only thing that I truly and utterly hated was fishing. Werehog was a dumb as fuck concept, but the execution (for me at least) was pretty good. I honestly liked it. And I like it way more than any wisp in Sonic Colors. :(

And just making Sonic run doesn't always equal to a good game, hence Secret Rings. Repetitious levels, a horrible leveling up system, and awkward controls (press 1 to stop?!?!) don't make this game good. And all Sonic does is run.

People, it's ALWAYS a matter of execution. EXECUTION.

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