Which criticisms towards the series do you disagree with?

[JezMM]

^ I think Mario's many styles can't be compared to Sonic's for two reasons:

1. His spin-off games were recieved excellently and in most cases considered one of the best <sports> games released for <system it appeared on>.

2. His spin-off games are spin-off games, not inserted into games advertised as "main titles" in the series.

[Indigo Rush]

That's your opinion, the opinion of people like you, but it is not unconditional truth eventually. I think differently, and I'm not alone believe so. Just running and play as Sonic, or the alternative styles of gameplay as other characters, this is just opinions and personal preferences. I never put the games in any rigid style of gameplay, I was just playing, and I did not care whether it looks like a retro or not, and because of that I enjoyed it. You guys are creating too much difficulty because of this "true gameplay."

Mario is a platformer.

Pokemon is a turn-based RPG.

Zelda is an adventure game.

Kirby is also a platformer.

And Sonic is a platformer with running and pinball mechanics.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Get over it. In your mind, Sonic may be a brawling or exploration or shooting game, but that's a misconception. Those are gimmicks, largely unwanted by the masses, by the way.

[Kiberbot]

Mario is a platformer.

Pokemon is a turn-based RPG.

Zelda is an adventure game.

Kirby is also a platformer.

And Sonic is a platformer with running and pinball mechanics.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Get over it. In your mind, Sonic may be a brawling or exploration or shooting game, but that's a misconception.

SA2 Gameplay:

Sonic/Shadow: platformer with running

Tails/Eggman: platformer with shooting

Knuckles/Rouge: platformer with "hot & cold"

I don't know about fishing, but all other styles of gameplay in SA are platformers, but with different gimmicks.

In any case, again, all that you have said, it's also just your opinion. There are also some people for whom this is not a fact. Even if the first games were just running platformers, it does not create any restrictions to the next games or what they should be, if you have not created them for yourself. Personally, I do not care if new games are not like the original concept (especially since the original concept never was removed completely), I'm concerned about only one thing: could this game be able to be enjoyable for me or not, and I will not limit my enjoyment with some conditional factors. And, for example, Adventures were more enjoyable for me than retro.

Those are gimmicks, largely unwanted by the masses, by the way.

On this forum or just English-speaking communities - maybe.

[Indigo Rush]

SA2 Gameplay:

Sonic/Shadow: platformer with running

Yes.

Tails/Eggman: platformer with shooting

Now it isn't Sonic anymore. No speed at all.

Knuckles/Rouge: platformer with "hot & cold"

Still not Sonic, an exploration hunting game. There is no goal.

I don't know about fishing, but all other styles of gameplay in SA are platformers, but with different gimmicks.

When you remove the speed, it's no longer a true Sonic platformer. The key here is a marriage of platforming AND speed. Once you take out the speed, you just have a game with a Sonic character's face on it. That stuff may be suitable for a spin-off, and it was suitable at the time for its experimental nature, but that isn't going to fly this time. Why then do we not have treasure hunting or mech shooting anymore? Obviously because the majority did not want it. Otherwise, we would have had them reappear in the post-Dreamcast era. It's been 10 years.

In any case, again, all that you have said, it's also just your opinion.

An opinion is saying that it's good or not. A fact is saying what it is. You don't seem to have learned this. Here, learn from Binky.

There are also some people for whom this is not a fact.

Again, consult Binky.

Even if the first games were just running platformers, it does not create any restrictions to the next games or what they should be,

Apologies, but yes it does. It's a precedent that needs to be followed to a certain degree. An occasional gimmick like how Colors pulled of is perfectly reasonable. That's how you shake things up. Forcing someone to completely change the game mechanics inbetween characters, however, is more than shaking things up, it's turning it upside down and punching you in the gut. The series is hideously inconsistent because of unrelated gimmicks.

if you have not created them for yourself.

I've been with the series long enough to know what makes it great from a universal standpoint. I can safely call myself a Sonic connoisseur.

Personally, I do not care if new games are not like the original concept (especially since the original concept never was removed completely), I'm concerned about only one thing: could this game be able to be enjoyable for me or not, and I will not limit my enjoyment with some conditional factors. And, for example, Adventures were more enjoyable for me than retro.

All the power to you for that. That's your opinion. You're using your opinion to make your case, when I'm making mine based off of the majority rule. Face it: Sonic games were never defined by their forced gimmicks. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't a requirement to continue. But if you like them, congratulations. That is your opinion.

On this forum or just English-speaking communities - maybe.

Incorrect. Not just the forum, and not just English-speaking communities (which is a freaking LARGE majority, by the way)

I'm done arguing this point. You don't seem to get it, so I bid you adieu, and hope you enjoy looking for those emerald shards. I'm gonna be racing to the end of the level, kthnkxbai.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Kiberbot]

Ok, let's use the same method as Binky, and see whether your words is opinion or fact:

You say: "Sonic should be only a running platformer, and other gimmicks that changes it, makes the game bad/not true Sonic."

Opposing fact: "Sega actually makes games with non-running gimmicks, and there is enough people who like these games and found them enjoyable, and they believe that these games are good."

The written above is a fact, and you can not change it, on the other hand, this fact makes your fact only a subjective statement, ie an opinion.

Incorrect. Not just the forum, and not just English-speaking communities (which is a freaking LARGE majority, by the way)

[JezMM]

Opposing fact: "Sega actually makes games with non-running gimmicks, and there is enough people who like these games and found them enjoyable, and they believe that these games are good."

[Kiberbot]

Games with different non-running gimmicks was an integral part of the franchise, then the failure of S06 set up a considerable proportion of the fans against them. And so, to the chagrin of gimmick fans, there are many other fans who also have their own opinion, for which Sega have developed Sonic Colors. But this does not mean that there is a less number of gimmick fans, if they are few on this forum or on the Sonic Retro, it does not mean that on other forums, such as non-English, all is the same.

A statement that some gimmicks does not fit Sonic is said only by those fans who do not like those gimmicks, Sega make games with gimmicks, so the developers did not think so. It is the opinion of those fans who did not like it, it is a fact only for them.

In any case, this dispute is really useless, I ended up with this.

[Tornado]

People were against the gimmicks long before STH '06 came out. That sentiment goes all the way back to 9/9/99 (where it was admittedly more a minor sentiment for a few reasons, most notably because they were mostly optional and they weren't really as different from the main gameplay in the first place as they were in Adventure 2 and after). In fact, it had become a major talking point (and detriment) by the time Adventure 2 Battle had rolled along. I specifically remember previews of Heroes absolutely beaming that the game would not have alternate genres shoehorned in.

Tornado has been kidnapped by ninjas. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue Tornado?

Edited February 6, 2011 by Tornado

[Kiberbot]

Yeah, okay, one more thing. Even if gimmick haters was there from the first day of appearance, there still a lot of Adventure fans. These comments are quite revealing: link

*walked away*

[Tornado]

They don't reveal anything at all. It is no secret that the Adventure games are held up on a far higher pedestal than they have any right to be, nor is it a secret that many of the people who built those pedestals tend to be the ones who have the ridiculous idea that Sonic Adventure 3 would equal "Best Sonic Game Ever" simply by virtue of existing (because it was Sonic Adventure 3 so it obviously has to be awesome). I can't even count the amount of topics that have been started on this board that basically act like that sentiment is a universal truth.

Tornado has been kidnapped by ninjas. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue Tornado?

Edited February 6, 2011 by Tornado

[sonfan1984]

Yeah, okay, one more thing. Even if gimmick haters was there from the first day of appearance, there still a lot of Adventure fans. These comments are quite revealing: link

*walked away*

Edited February 6, 2011 by sonfan1984

[azoo]

Dear Kiberbot and anyone that thinks the same,

Hate to break it to you, but Sonic was never about alternate gameplay styles. Sonic's original intentions was a speedy platformer with momentum mechanics. The series has veered far from that; that is true. Heck, you can even entitle that you prefer the alternate gameplay styles from the Adventure series. But to say that those things are what made the Sonic franchise Sonic would not only mean that Sonic 1 would've also been part brawler part run & gun, but also that the series would've died a looong time ago.

Your (rightful) opinion is that Sonic is best with the alternate gameplay styles as the game's main aspect. The fact behind it all is that Sonic never was intended to be that, and by what I'm seeing from Sega's track-record lately, he never will be again.

It's time to get all y'alls facts skraightened. Class dimissed.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Azukara

[RootingForTheEmpire]

Reading through this thread, I must say that any criticisms to any games in the series based on the critic's view of what 'true Sonic' is, I largely disagree with as well. There is no 'true Sonic' gameplay, only your personal preference. You can say one game is closer to 'true Sonic' than another, but people will always disagree with you because the entire concept of 'true Sonic' gameplay is entirely subjective. It's just that some views are disagreed with less than others.

[Indigo Rush]

And yet I find myself arguing the same thing again. *sigh*

Reading through this thread, I must say that any criticisms to any games in the series based on the critic's view of what 'true Sonic' is, I largely disagree with as well. There is no 'true Sonic' gameplay, only your personal preference. You can say one game is closer to 'true Sonic' than another, but people will always disagree with you because the entire concept of 'true Sonic' gameplay is entirely subjective. It's just that some views are disagreed with less than others.

It's not quite like that, though. The argument that the mainstream Sonic genre isn't about speed and platforming is really naïve. Speed is Sonic's thing. The whole debate as to what Sonic gameplay is, is centered moreso around the concept that Sonic has always been a platformer with elements of speed. You absolutely cannot deny this. The mainstream Sonic games have consistently had this paradigm, and even the ones with the added gameplay variation still contained that concept of speed and platforming. It has always been there, it is something that SEGA has stuck with and we can safely say that this is the kind of experience someone looks forward to when they purchase a game with Sonic's face on it.

There are spinoff titles, yes, but those are not the mainstream. The mainstream has always been speed and platforming. This is what I'm trying to tell you guys. I want you to boot up a main series Sonic game and tell me that Sonic isn't remotely fast. Then, tell me that it isn't a platformer.

You will never be able to tell me it isn't, because it is a proven fact that Sonic is a speedy platformer. I'm sorry, this is not an opinion or a subjective concept, this is a grounded fact.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Kuzu]

I don't like playing a third person shooter, in a platform game, its as simple as that.

[Scar]

I don't like playing a third person shooter, in a platform game, its as simple as that.

Works pretty well for Ratchet and Clank.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Scar

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't like playing a third person shooter, in a platform game, its as simple as that.

You don't like Ratchet and Clank? Aww...

But really, what if it was a platforming game with projectile weapons while allowing you the ability to fly and melee attack with your tails, but you don't have to rely on the guns to kill enemy foes if you don't want to? Kinda like taking Metal Gear Solid's take in that you can go through majority of the game with just the traquilizer gun alone as your main weapon.

And of course, that above would be used for Tails' gameplay.

[Kuzu]

Works pretty well for Ratchet and Clank.

Oh I know, I love Ratchet & Clank, its one of the series I think Sonic can benefit from by taking a few cues from it.

You don't like Ratchet and Clank? Aww...

But really, what if it was a platforming game with projectile weapons while allowing you the ability to fly and melee attack with your tails, but you don't have to rely on the guns to kill enemy foes if you don't want to? Kinda like taking Metal Gear Solid's take in that you can go through majority of the game with just the traquilizer gun alone as your main weapon.

And of course, that above would be used for Tails' gameplay.

I love Ratchet & Clank, the thing is though.

Ratchet & Clank's gimmick are the guns, and gadgets and was that from the start, and never suffered from a genre roulette, like the Sonic series has.

Sonic by comparison; The main gimmick of Sonic was(And always shall be) his speed, but Sega decided to widen their audience with a few genre roulette, and while some people may have liked them, they were used so poorly, that I don't have any confidence they can make it work, and would rather for them to focus on the main gameplay.

I wouldn't mind a game like that for Tails, but only if I didn't feel like I wanted to play as Sonic.

[HeroMystic]

They don't reveal anything at all. It is no secret that the Adventure games are held up on a far higher pedestal than they have any right to be, nor is it a secret that many of the people who built those pedestals tend to be the ones who have the ridiculous idea that Sonic Adventure 3 would equal "Best Sonic Game Ever" simply by virtue of existing (because it was Sonic Adventure 3 so it obviously has to be awesome). I can't even count the amount of topics that have been started on this board that basically act like that sentiment is a universal truth.

Not to mention this "pedestal" of the Adventure series was really only made because of it's story and presentation, which was infact the main highlight to the majority of SA fans.

To note, I played Sonic games ever since 1995, but it wasn't until SA2 that I really became a big Sonic fan.

Sonic by comparison; The main gimmick of Sonic was(And always shall be) his speed, but Sega decided to widen their audience with a few genre roulette, and while some people may have liked them, they were used so poorly, that I don't have any confidence they can make it work, and would rather for them to focus on the main gameplay.

My take on it is, the problem isn't with the added gimmicks, it's with how different they are from game to game. SA1 had Speed, Treasure Hunting, Shooting, and lolfishing. SA2 didn't do anything different, but it was narrowed down to Speed, Treasure Hunting, and Shooting. Heroes focused on Speed, but added the "Team element" (and it was shoddy as hell). ShTH went with speed but added shooting with that speed, which turned out to be poor execution. Sonic '06 went back to the SA formula with Speed, "Speedy" Combat, and (sadistic) puzzle platforming. Unleashed went with Speed and Combat, and Colors was just Speed.

Outside of Colors, the Sonic games have really been similar to each other, just in different forms. I figured this was because Sonic Team keeps trying the please the masses about character limits, but really if they just stuck with a few core gimmicks then everything would've worked itself out.

[Kiberbot]

Reading through this thread, I must say that any criticisms to any games in the series based on the critic's view of what 'true Sonic' is, I largely disagree with as well. There is no 'true Sonic' gameplay, only your personal preference. You can say one game is closer to 'true Sonic' than another, but people will always disagree with you because the entire concept of 'true Sonic' gameplay is entirely subjective. It's just that some views are disagreed with less than others.

I just want to thank you for your post, I'm glad that someone has expressed what I'm trying to explain to some users.

[ChikaBoing]

@responding to the alt. gameplay talk...

IMO Sonic Adventure 2 has easily the worst alternate gameplay in the Series. They add nothing to the game, and they just feel they are there for the sake of being too lazy to have the whole game Speed Levels. The drop of Level design quality from Speed Level to Shooting/Hunting Level are huge and they don't offer qualities that enhance the Experience( except for maybe Hunting, but that is ruined by linear radar system) and they are 80 perecent of the game. In Adventure 1 and in 06, the alternate gameplay was firstly not forced and secondly you played in the same levels, so it makes it alot more tolerable. Unleashed is more similar to SA2 where there are different levels between running Levels, but it added depth more then the SA2 alt gameplay ever did, even tough undeniably the game would have been better with just Daystages.

The Night-Time was completly in contrast with the Daytime and offered elements that weren't in Daytime, such as more precise free-roaming,plattforming and getting more hand in hand with enemies instead of just boosting through them and general flexibility that weren't in the restricted, raw memorozation Day-Stages.

Even tough they are a bad Idea to begin with and it doesn't make the game much better,but in inplementation and making sense on why they are in the game, it beats the Shooting/Hunting anyday.

Edited February 7, 2011 by ChikaBoing

[Marcello]

I disagree with the people who say the voice acting was terrible in Adventure. To me they were totally fine. I never had problems with the acting or voices in that game.

Edited February 7, 2011 by marcellof

[DarkLight]

I disagree with the people who say the voice acting was terrible in Adventure. To me they were totally fine. I never had problems with the acting or voices.

Voice-acting never should have been an issue to begin with.

[Marcello]

Voice-acting never should have been an issue to begin with.

Can't say I agree. I was quite unhappy when they switched to the 4kids actors. I think when a character is important to someone, they want them to stay the way they are to an extent and the voice is part of that. Imagine if Mario would get a new voice. I'm sure that would piss quite a few off, me included.

[HeroMystic]

@responding to the alt. gameplay talk...

IMO Sonic Adventure 2 has easily the worst alternate gameplay in the Series. They add nothing to the game, and they just feel they are there for the sake of being too lazy to have the whole game Speed Levels. The drop of Level design quality from Speed Level to Shooting/Hunting Level are huge and they don't offer qualities that enhance the Experience( except for maybe Hunting, but that is ruined by linear radar system) and they are 80 perecent of the game. In Adventure 1 and in 06, the alternate gameplay was firstly not forced and secondly you played in the same levels, so it makes it alot more tolerable. Unleashed is more similar to SA2 where there are different levels between running Levels, but it added depth more then the SA2 alt gameplay ever did, even tough undeniably the game would have been better with just Daystages.

The Night-Time was completly in contrast with the Daytime and offered elements that weren't in Daytime, such as more precise free-roaming,plattforming and getting more hand in hand with enemies instead of just boosting through them and general flexibility that weren't in the restricted, raw memorozation Day-Stages.

Even tough it isn't the best way to attain depth, in inplementation it beats the Shooting/Hunting anyday.

To be fair the Speed levels in SA2 weren't that high in quality anyway. They were (extremely) linear, but they were fun because of the added obstacles and "tricks" you can do, and they were particularly perfect to make speedruns out of. Personally speaking the shooting levels were half 'n half. Tails' were crap but Eggman's were well-made. Treasure Hunting I just felt was wasted potential for similar reasons you stated but that could've been easily fixed if they added variety beyond the "find the missing shards with the radar" to each level, such as adding obstacles and speed-like areas to transfer from one area to the next. Death Chamber is a great example of this.

EDIT: Though, I disagree with SA2 having the worst alternate gameplay usage. That easily goes to Sonic 06. The Amigo system was downright terrible, and there's no way to avoid it, even when you're looking to play as a specific character.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Marco