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Kuzu

Does the Adventure series still stack up?

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The Adventure games have certainly aged a fair bit. I still remember the frustration of trying to get Sonic to jump properly, and him just lurching forward. Or getting Sonic to jump on to another platform, only for the camera to fuck around and make me miss the jump. <_<

That said, the two Adventure titles are still very enjoyable Sonic titles. And I actually quite liked the first games alternate types (Well most of them. Tails and Amy were just incredibly slow variants of Sonic's stages). And when you actually managed to get Sonic to control during the action/speed stages, it felt awesome. If Sonic Team or Dimps decided to revisit this type of playstyle and just iron out the camera and control issues, I'd be all for it. It'd be a breath of fresh air compared to Unleashed and Colours (Seriously, hasn't it been about 5 years since the last Adventure style game? Most of the general public have forgotten about '06 by now, right?)

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Recently I watched SA1 cutscenes once again. At first I was afraid that they will disapoint me, cause I knew that their visual quality was really outdated than the first time I saw them, same goes to animation and voice acting. But surprisingly it was all good to me. I did not mind animation or voice acting at all and my impressions were good. So I figured out that if there is a place for a great storyline, real characters development and if that is the Sonic I love, then it does not matter how good direction of cutscenes is. Colors have it vice versa. It has got awfull storyline but it's cutscenes are directed really good. Now after that I've watched SA1 cutscenes once again I can surely tell that I do not understand people who say that SA1 and Unleashed storylines are same level. Gamma's storyline itself has much more than whole Unleashed story. Anyways I am convinced that you cannot fix awfull story with good cutscenes, and really good story cannot be spoiled by poor cutscenes.

And one more thing about SA level structures. Sure thing SA1 has more different routes and ways to complete the level than SA2, but SA2 levels are more of an action level. The whole thing in completing Sonic/Shadow SA2 levels is to get an A rang in the end, and to do that you'll have to remember each rail, each spring, each ring line, each possible shortcut and use all this wisely. So the levels don't represent a set of routes, but a clearly paved way with lots of action and thoughtful interaction with the terrain. Thats where SA2 "line" structure plays in. Thats why they are not bad, they just different. And I like them more than SA1 ones.

I still DO think that SA Series is a games that people can really enjoy. Same goes even to Treasure hunting. All you have to do is to decline stereotypes of a "True gameplay".

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Recently I watched SA1 cutscenes once again. At first I was afraid that they will disapoint me, cause I knew that their visual quality was really outdated than the first time I saw them, same goes to animation and voice acting. But surprisingly it was all good to me. I did not mind animation or voice acting at all and my impressions were good. So I figured out that if there is a place for a great storyline, real characters development and if that is the Sonic I love, then it does not matter how good direction of cutscenes is. Colors have it vice versa. It has got awfull storyline but it's cutscenes are directed really good. Now after that I've watched SA1 cutscenes once again I can surely tell that I do not understand people who say that SA1 and Unleashed storylines are same level. Gamma's storyline itself has much more than whole Unleashed story. Anyways I am convinced that you cannot fix awfull story with good cutscenes, and really good story cannot be spoiled by poor cutscenes.

And one more thing about SA level structures. Sure thing SA1 has more different routes and ways to complete the level than SA2, but SA2 levels are more of an action level. The whole thing in completing Sonic/Shadow SA2 levels is to get an A rang in the end, and to do that you'll have to remember each rail, each spring, each ring line, each possible shortcut and use all this wisely. So the levels don't represent a set of routes, but a clearly paved way with lots of action and thoughtful interaction with the terrain. Thats where SA2 "line" structure plays in. Thats why they are not bad, they just different. And I like them more than SA1 ones.

I still DO think that SA Series is a games that people can really enjoy. Same goes even to Treasure hunting. All you have to do is to decline stereotypes of a "True gameplay".

Let me put it to you like this. SA2's levels are basically like Unleashed's levels, but slower. The alternate routes only open up when you reach the final levels; Final Rush, and Eggmanland respectively.

SA1's levels are really quite different to either of those.

Besides, people don't hate the Treasure hunting levels and the mech levels because they aren't "true gameplay" (that's only part of the reason). People hate them because they are badly designed and really boring. It is plainly obvious that the Speed levels had the most effort put in them. The other types of gameplay just felt tacked on in order to extend gameplay length. Well, that's what it felt like.

Also, if you're playing the "there is no such thing as true gameplay", then I'm sorry, what was the problem with the werehog. He is no worse [or better] than the treasure hunting and shooting stages.

Besides, I personally feel that they should finish perfecting Sonic's gameplay before trying other characters. Its better to have 1 perfectly refined character, instead of 6 terrible ones or 3 mediocre. As Sonic Team still haven't completely worked the kinks out of Sonic's gameplay, I think we should wait a little while before expecting them to have alternate gameplay styles.

As for story. Well, we'll see. I think the story should be simple, but well written. We don't need overly complex stories, unless we get, I dunno, Christopher Nolan to write the plot and dialogue (which will never ever happen)

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Let me put it to you like this. SA2's levels are basically like Unleashed's levels, but slower. The alternate routes only open up when you reach the final levels; Final Rush, and Eggmanland respectively.

SA1's levels are really quite different to either of those.

Besides, people don't hate the Treasure hunting levels and the mech levels because they aren't "true gameplay" (that's only part of the reason). People hate them because they are badly designed and really boring. It is plainly obvious that the Speed levels had the most effort put in them. The other types of gameplay just felt tacked on in order to extend gameplay length. Well, that's what it felt like.

Also, if you're playing the "there is no such thing as true gameplay", then I'm sorry, what was the problem with the werehog. He is no worse [or better] than the treasure hunting and shooting stages.

Besides, I personally feel that they should finish perfecting Sonic's gameplay before trying other characters. Its better to have 1 perfectly refined character, instead of 6 terrible ones or 3 mediocre. As Sonic Team still haven't completely worked the kinks out of Sonic's gameplay, I think we should wait a little while before expecting them to have alternate gameplay styles.

As for story. Well, we'll see. I think the story should be simple, but well written. We don't need overly complex stories, unless we get, I dunno, Christopher Nolan to write the plot and dialogue (which will never ever happen)

Considering we got writers from a pretty famous show, as well as VA's that have done a Ton of anime, I'd say anything's possible.

I'll be the first to admit, Sa2's level design is linear as all hell. Its like Scar said, Unleashed but without a boost. Sa1's by comparison had a much more open ended level design, just look at stages like Red Mountain or Final Egg they're freakin huge.

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I for one dont think there is anything wrong with linear levels. Heck, that's where the platform genre began. But then of course, non-linear levels are for obvious reasons usually more fun to play through multiple times.

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For some reason, I still prefer SA2's linear levels to the SA more open ones. Maybe it's because I just feel SA2 had better control overall, I wouldn't be the first to admit SA2 greatly improved some control problems from the first one. However, the more open levels in the first game were fun too, I wouldn't mind more open like levels with SA2 controls being improved.

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Although both games have aged a lot, (SA1 moreso than SA2, what with the poor collison detection, awful voice acting, Big the Cat, etc.) I still have a lot of fun with both. I believe the Sonic stages have actually aged very well.. The alternate gameplay hasn't aged nearly as well, but I still enjoy most of it, aside from Big's and Amy's stages in SA1.

Edited by T-Man

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I really don't like to admit it, but Sonic Adventure is really starting to show it's age. That draw distance is quite laughable and the camera... urgh. Don't get me started on that. Don't get me wrong, I still have a lot of fun with it, but it's almost as if you have to play it the way the game wants you to and not how you want to. This is because you end up uncovering lots of little bugs and weirdness.

Sonic Adventure 2 on the other hand is still quite a polished little game. I think this is mainly down to it having one of the most robust engines in any 3D Sonic game.

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...and don't get me STARTED on Big the Abortion.

I lol'd. So, so true.

The story was overall decent but it's nothing to write home about,

I'm not going to argue that because the story isn't so great, but the presentation of the story is pretty good minus the totally off lip sinking. And the script was no were near as corny as some of the things in Heroes (dreadful script), Unleashed (we all remember Chip dying), and Colors (and the jokes fall FLAAAAAT).

The Heroes script was the worst of all of them!!

"A date to DIE for!"

"Because we're Sonic Heroes!"

"This is a long hallway!!!" (Thanks Captain Obvious. <_<)

And many other cringe-worthy statements that I don't want to recall...

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Actually I've been thinking about it, and looking back, I actually don't think Heroe's writing was that bad. What was bad was the lack of cutscenes for proper transistion between levels. (That's what really bothered me about it the day I bought it)

Honestly I don't even remember rolling my eyes at all. In fact, whenever there was a cutscene in that game, I was really happy because I wanted to enjoy every second of it. And even if sonic said super power of teamwork, what was so bad about that? It makes sense to even say that for the situation. All the teams came together. And I always loved the talking during the levels. I felt it brought more character to the game.

If there's any game with writing and cutscenes that makes me cringe, it's Unleashed and SA1.

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Excluding some of the helper characters (mainly the Tikal orbs), the in-game talking (excluding the Colours Robotnik PAs) always made me want them to shut the fuck up. Mostly because they wouldn't stop. You couldn't go for one minute without someone pointing out the obvious.

Talking now and then about the scene and the situation and whatever is fine. But all the time? Especially when everything they say is obvious/retarded/cringe-worthy? Combined with poor catchphrases? I'm not saying they're better, but Sonic and Co's chatterbox nature is often why people prefer mute heroes.

EDIT: Also, just because it makes sense to say something doesn't mean you should say it. In TTYD, Mario and Co. could have easily talked about "the super power of teamwork" in regards to beating the Shadow Queen together. But they didn't. And that's (one of many reasons) why people take that scene more seriously than Sonic and chums taking on Metal Overlord.

Edited by Dr. Crusher

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I actually don't believe Sonic Heroes had the worst script. Apart from the teamwork crap, it wasn't particularly awful. In fact, Sonic Adventure 1 is the only game where I wanted to dive into the Sonic world with a sledgehammer and bash each and every character into the ground until they stopped talking. Okay, an exageration, but not by much.

I haven't played Colours, but I watched the cinematics on Youtube and believe they are better than most Sonic games. By a long shot.

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Am I missing something? Where is all this "character development" Sonic Adventure apparently had? I'm sorry, but at least in Heroes the game knew it was stupid, and didn't take itself seriously at all. Sonic Adventure tries to be serious and because of it, just ends up being unintentionally humorous. You want character development in a Sonic game? Look at Sonic Unleashed. At the beginning of the game, Sonic's proud of who he is; "I'm Sonic! Sonic the Hedgehog"! After he becomes there Werehog, however, he stays hidden in the dark, preferring to stay out of everyone's way, especially Amy, whom he ran away from to keep his face hidden. Sonic was ashamed of what he had become: that's character development. Chip goes from being a clueless, happy go lucky fairy... dog... thing, and after discovering who he was, had a new sense of purpose. He went to defeat Dark Gaia on his own, because he knew it was his fate: that's character development. What did Sonic Adventure give us? Well, let's take a look:

Beginning of Game - "I'm totally dependent on Sonic. I can't do anything without him. Sonic is my best friend EVAAAAARRRRRR".

End of game - "I'm totally independent. I don't need Sonic, I can take down Eggman all by myself. I can do it".

That's great and all, but you know why this shouldn't even count? In Sonic Adventure 2, he's exactly the same as he was before. What the fuck, Sonic Team? You're so proud of your "I'm independent" storyline that you want to give it to use twice? On the same character? Are you serious?

Knuckles? Nothing. The fact that he's going to the past to see the people of his long extinct tribe doesn't faze him at all. Who cares if he can go find his ancestors? There are more important things to worry about, such as "DAT EMOWALD".

Gamma? Independence. Again.

Shadow? Independence. Again.

Amy? Independence. Again.

I don't know about you guys, but I get tired of watching the same thing over and over again.

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Dissident, it's sonicteam's fault that they were/are inconsistent about what they did with character development in previous games. Sonicteam's inconsistency doesn't make Sonic adventure's plot any less deep or any less about character development. It definitely was there, it was good. What sonicteam did later is not the game's fault.

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Funny you should mention character devolopment in the Adventure games.

I have been recently watching playthroughs for each game and if you ask me, Amy is the most finicky when it comes to her character(mostly due to different writers perhaps.)

Adventure: Before, "I want to go on more adventures with Sonic!"

After, "I'll make Sonic respect me as a person and not as an annoyance by being a better and stronger person!"

Adventure 2: Before, "Where's my dear Sonic?"

After the final boss, "What's the matter Sonic?"

Shadow just "died" Amy. Ya' know, the guy you convinced to help save the world? :angry:

Edited by DragonSoul

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Dissident, it's sonicteam's fault that they were/are inconsistent about what they did with character development in previous games. Sonicteam's inconsistency doesn't make Sonic adventure's plot any less deep or any less about character development. It definitely was there, it was good. What sonicteam did later is not the game's fault.

The fact that the whole idea is incredibly cliche and bland doesn't help either.

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Am I missing something? Where is all this "character development" Sonic Adventure apparently had? I'm sorry, but at least in Heroes the game knew it was stupid, and didn't take itself seriously at all. Sonic Adventure tries to be serious and because of it, just ends up being unintentionally humorous. You want character development in a Sonic game? Look at Sonic Unleashed. At the beginning of the game, Sonic's proud of who he is; "I'm Sonic! Sonic the Hedgehog"! After he becomes there Werehog, however, he stays hidden in the dark, preferring to stay out of everyone's way, especially Amy, whom he ran away from to keep his face hidden. Sonic was ashamed of what he had become: that's character development. Chip goes from being a clueless, happy go lucky fairy... dog... thing, and after discovering who he was, had a new sense of purpose. He went to defeat Dark Gaia on his own, because he knew it was his fate: that's character development. What did Sonic Adventure give us? Well, let's take a look:

I won't argue that Unleashed had some nice character development. I can't remember the last time they actually tried to develop Sonic, something missing in the Adventure stories.

Beginning of Game - "I'm totally dependent on Sonic. I can't do anything without him. Sonic is my best friend EVAAAAARRRRRR".

End of game - "I'm totally independent. I don't need Sonic, I can take down Eggman all by myself. I can do it".

That's great and all, but you know why this shouldn't even count? In Sonic Adventure 2, he's exactly the same as he was before. What the fuck, Sonic Team? You're so proud of your "I'm independent" storyline that you want to give it to use twice? On the same character? Are you serious?

I disagree. In SA2, Tails didn't need Sonic at all, but he still felt close to him. You see him flying to Prison Island by himself to go and save Sonic. Didn't need help from Sonic there, Sonic needed Tails' help there. And when Sonic was sent to his doom, Tails was upset because he thought he lost his best friend. He was independent, but he couldn't imagine a life WITHOUT him. So he became even more independent. In my opinion, Tails really was handled well in SA2.

Knuckles? Nothing. The fact that he's going to the past to see the people of his long extinct tribe doesn't faze him at all. Who cares if he can go find his ancestors? There are more important things to worry about, such as "DAT EMOWALD".

Eh, I'll agree with this. Sonic Adventure, there really was nothing special about Knuckles other then his connection with Chaos. In SA2 though, I liked his development with Rouge and the way they made him comic relief actually worked pretty nice for him.

Gamma? Independence. Again.

More then independence, but realizing that Amy was the true friend and not Eggman. I think that's more then just independence.

Shadow? Independence. Again.

Hell no, it may have been a part of it, but Shadow's development was much more then that. He wanted vengeance, he wanted people to pay for him hurting. But in the end, he had a revelation that this is not what Maria would've wanted Shadow to live his life like. Shadow was MUCH MORE then just independence and we all know that.

Amy? Independence. Again.

I won't argue about Amy, she was a pretty useless plot device in SA2. But I liked her in the first game.

EDIT: Actually, in the first Adventure, Amy never said she didn't need Sonic. She said she was going to make him respect her. So technically, I don't think she actually let go of Sonic, she just wanted to look stronger for him. But she obviously didn't do that in SA2 so eh.

I don't know about you guys, but I get tired of watching the same thing over and over again.

I didn't, because they were all pretty different from each other, for me at least.

Edited by RidersDX

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The games have their high points, and their low points bottom line.

Its kinda hard to see that though, because Dissdent has a real negative look at the games, while RidersDX sees the Adventure games with Rose Tinted Glasses.

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The games have their high points, and their low points bottom line.

Its kinda hard to see that though, because Dissdent has a real negative look at the games, while RidersDX sees the Adventure games with Rose Tinted Glasses.

Have I really become that predictable? You might be surprised to know that I am against genre roulette then. I don't see the Adventure games through those glasses now do I?

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Have I really become that predictable? You might be surprised to know that I am against genre roulette then. I don't see the Adventure games through those glasses now do I?

No. But the way you talk about them, you make them seem like the greatest games in the franchise, and all future games should be made just like them, that's what I mean by Rose Tinted Glasses.

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No. But the way you talk about them, you make them seem like the greatest games in the franchise, and all future games should be made just like them, that's what I mean by Rose Tinted Glasses.

Well, in my opinion, they kinda are. B) You see, the Adventure games were basically my childhood, and I never stopped playing them since. But, I'm aware there are flaws, but I just don't think it deserves all the flack they get now so you see me defending them more then criticizing them.

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Well, in my opinion, they kinda are. B) You see, the Adventure games were basically my childhood, and I never stopped playing them since. But, I'm aware there are flaws, but I just don't think it deserves all the flack they get now so you see me defending them more then criticizing them.

So you're saying it shouldn't get called out for its flaws? What kind of reasoning is that? If something has a problem, you're not supposed to ignore it and act like its not there.

And remember my first Sonic game was SA2, matter of fact it was the game that made me a fan of the series, but after years of replaying the games, I found flaws, lots of flaws. And despite SA2 being by first game, after I played Sonic 3 & Knuckles, yeah now that was the best Sonic game for me.

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So you're saying it shouldn't get called out for its flaws? What kind of reasoning is that? If something has a problem, you're not supposed to ignore it and act like its not there.

And remember my first Sonic game was SA2, matter of fact it was the game that made me a fan of the series, but after years of replaying the games, I found flaws, lots of flaws. And despite SA2 being by first game, after I played Sonic 3 & Knuckles, yeah now that was the best Sonic game for me.

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No. Do you see me arguing against genre roulette? No, I don't argue against flaws I agree with. I argue against flaws I disagree with. Like the stories, I personally loved the stories, that's why I'm defending them. You should know by now that I will not ignore a problem if it's there, just look back at all my rantings about Colors' story.

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