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Does the Adventure series still stack up?


Kuzu

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As far as I can remember, Aquarium Park is only "vast, wide, long and deep" in the 2D sections. I wouldn't exactly call the 3D sections "on-rails", but that's not too far off.

There are so few 3D sections in the whole game it's just silly though. And even then, it's hardly on rails, Unleashed had more linear 3-D sections.

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There are so few 3D sections in the whole game it's just silly though. And even then, it's hardly on rails, Unleashed had more linear 3-D sections.

What are you talking about? Colors 3D sections were mostly running in a straight line, dodging things and homing attacking floating rocks.

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The Main thing for me is that people do like as if SEGA never listened to what the fans of the Adventure games want , which just isn't true.

When Adventure 2 came out, people didn't like the Shooting/Hunting Levels. So they made Heroes a game with only one gameplay-style that focused on the speed-based plattforming.

Not exactly, they also tacked on the team gimmick. Isn't that the point of the name?

People didn't like Heroes, so SEGA thought"Maybe they do like all that stuff from SA2" so they made a game about shooting/searching/running mixed into one, covered with a dark fleshed out storyline about their beloved Shadow,made 400 Crush40 Songs and let Senoune compose about 500 Level Songs, which all sound the same.

Sega made ShTH to gain fans from the shooter department. Sega didn't listen to the fans once during ShTH. No one in the fanbase was asking for Shadow to be equipped with guns.

People still claimed that SEGA doesn't listen and wanted a truely proper SA3, which has all the elements that the Adventure games have, and they did that with 06.

Well 06 was crap.

When Unleashed was announed it contained the same gameplay element(unrelated gameplay forced upon the player) of Adventure 2, yet people still wanted SA3 because they it had the Werehog and an unrelated alternate gameplay style and not only Sonic gameplay, even tough the Adventure games weren't 100% Core-Sonic gameplay.

Because the Werehog sucked. The Adventure fans were able to tolerate the short shooting/treasure hunting levels, not the 20 min werehog levels. But, I know others liked that, but I personally am not into levels where half is decent platforming and other half is shallow combat.

So when Colors came out it was what everybody wanted, Sonic Unleashed without Werehog.SEGA realised finnaly after 7 years that people want a game without alt. gameplay and branched off the Adventure formula for once after so many years. Yet they still want Adventure 3.

Because they just prefer the Adventure formula overall, specifically the Sonic gameplay.

Anyway, your claim that Sega was always listening to the fans I really just can't agree with, as Sega really hasn't given a damn about the fanbase until Colors. If Sega listened to fans, Sonic Heroes would've had no team gimmick, ShTH wouldn't have guns and shallow gameplay, Sonic 06 wouldn't be the mess it is, etc.

Despite any of our opinions on the Adventure franchise, it is pretty obvious that it has not aged well with the general public. Here are a few examples to prove my point:

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/sonic-adventure

Despite whether people think Adventure is the better game than Colors and Unleashed, what Colors is doing is increasing our fanbase, where Adventure will not, especially with the bad rep it's recieved from the general public.

And it is not a fact that the Colors engine is the best. Who's to say that refining the Adventure formula won't gain even more fans? Scar is right, there is no correct formula to use. It is not a fact one is better over the other, overall wise.

Edited by RidersDX
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While reading last pages of the topic the only thing that comes to my mind is "double standarts".

Some of you say that "SA fans are bunch of fanatics and fanboys, cause they think that SA is greater than any game, and think that everything else sucks". You are right at some point, and in some cases. But you say this like if only SA fans behave themselves in a such way. Why don't you say so about retro fans, whos point of view can be described as an highly overrated towards their favourite games and contempt for everything that unlike it?

You ever though that SA fans just likes SA series more than other games? What is so bad that we love SA more than the games that you like more? Why is that SA fans are victims of a such misjudgement like being described as the completed fanatics, while others are not? For example I am personally annoyed by statements like "If that game is not 100% running platformer then it is not true Sonic and it is shit" and I am as much disapointed of it as much as you guys disapointed of SA fans. Why then I do not call those people a fanatics that do not want anything else but their precious classics gameplay, just like you did with SA fans?

Your attitude to the SA fans, as a major fanatics in fandom are nothing but a double standards, because if you look at things objectively, all your claims can be applied to all the fans, to SA fans, to Retro fans, to Colors fans - to all. In each part there are adequate users and fanatics, do not expose us, SA fans, as the worst and most annoying example.

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So, has there ever actually been a 3D Sonic game that was universally liked? Sonic still has yet to nail it, after a whole decade of trial and error. Can we at least agree to that?

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Keep in mind that I recognize and agree with your overall point, but there is something that must be said:

Why don't you say so about retro fans, whos point of view can be described as an highly overrated towards their favourite games and contempt for everything that unlike it?

The two situations are markedly different.

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While reading last pages of the topic the only thing that comes to my mind is "double standarts".

Some of you say that "SA fans are bunch of fanatics and fanboys, cause they think that SA is greater than any game, and think that everything else sucks". You are right at some point, and in some cases. But you say this like if only SA fans behave themselves in a such way. Why don't you say so about retro fans, whos point of view can be described as an highly overrated towards their favourite games and contempt for everything that unlike it?

You ever though that SA fans just likes SA series more than other games? What is so bad that we love SA more than the games that you like more? Why is that SA fans are victims of a such misjudgement like being described as the completed fanatics, while others are not? For example I am personally annoyed by statements like "If that game is not 100% running platformer then it is not true Sonic and it is shit" and I am as much disapointed of it as much as you guys disapointed of SA fans. Why then I do not call those people a fanatics that do not want anything else but their precious classics gameplay, just like you did with SA fans?

Your attitude to the SA fans, as a major fanatics in fandom are nothing but a double standards, because if you look at things objectively, all your claims can be applied to all the fans, to SA fans, to Retro fans, to Colors fans - to all. In each part there are adequate users and fanatics, do not expose us, SA fans, as the worst and most annoying example.

Nobody said it was exclusive to the SA fans.

None of the 3D games are good enough to be the "True Sonic gameplay". All of them are deeply flawed games, which have good parts and bad parts. None of the 3D games are exempt from this, not SA1, not SA2, not Unleashed and not Colours, none of them.

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it is simple indy

you take the sonic adventure

you dip it in peabnut bubber

and you get a good game

What is this, I don't even....

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it is simple indy

you take the sonic adventure

you dip it in peabnut bubber

and you get a good game

We must go one step beyond...

ADD BANANAS. SEGA will have no choice but to reward us with riches untold!

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We must go one step beyond...

ADD BANANAS. SEGA will have no choice but to reward us with riches untold!

Sega, where's our money.

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The Adventure series seems to spark a lot of debate whenever it's mentioned on this forum, doesn't it?

You know, they could probably solve this problem of Unleashed/Colours engine VS Adventure engine by adding two playable characters,

one with the Unleashed/Colours engine(Sonic) and one with the Adventure engine(Tails? Knuckles? Shadow?). However, this seems pretty

unlikely seeing as it would be like designing two games at once and would probably get rushed as a result, but it's still an interesting idea

that could possibly please fans of both engine.

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Because the Werehog sucked. The Adventure fans were able to tolerate the short shooting/treasure hunting levels, not the 20 min werehog levels. But, I know others liked that, but I personally am not into levels where half is decent platforming and other half is shallow combat.

And it is not a fact that the Colors engine is the best. Who's to say that refining the Adventure formula won't gain even more fans? Scar is right, there is no correct formula to use. It is not a fact one is better over the other, overall wise.

Trust me, I did not enjoy finding master emerald pieces for 20 minutes in Meteor Herd.

It is not a fact that it is, but it is a widely shared opinion between critics and the general public alike. And if they were to refine the Adventure formula to that point, it wouldn't be an Adventure game anymore, hence what the two reviewers in my examples said when they didn't like the Adventure formula.

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Trust me, I did not enjoy finding master emerald pieces for 20 minutes in Meteor Herd.

It is not a fact that it is, but it is a widely shared opinion between critics and the general public alike. And if they were to refine the Adventure formula to that point, it wouldn't be an Adventure game anymore, hence what the two reviewers in my examples said when they didn't like the Adventure formula.

I think it's really bullshit if people think it's only an Adventure formula with treasure hunting and shooting. We've seen Sonic 06 where they took away treasure hunting and shooting....for the most part anyway. You can have extra playable characters that play similarly enough to each other. A perfect example is Sonic and Shadow in 06. They both have the same type of levels and similar controls, but they both still differ enough from each other. If Sega just made an Adventure game with all the characters playing similarly like that, I see no reason why anyone would hate the game. Unless they were to screw anything else up.

Anyway, when I say Adventure formula, I'm usually just referring to the Sonic stages. I don't feel the need to see genre roulette again.

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I think it's really bullshit if people think it's only an Adventure formula with treasure hunting and shooting. We've seen Sonic 06 where they took away treasure hunting and shooting....for the most part anyway. You can have extra playable characters that play similarly enough to each other. A perfect example is Sonic and Shadow in 06. They both have the same type of levels and similar controls, but they both still differ enough from each other. If Sega just made an Adventure game with all the characters playing similarly like that, I see no reason why anyone would hate the game. Unless they were to screw anything else up.

Anyway, when I say Adventure formula, I'm usually just referring to the Sonic stages. I don't feel the need to see genre roulette again.

That's what everybody wants. Gameplay that is similar to, but differentiated from Sonic's gameplay.

Some people (i.e. the people we're all annoyed at) want to see a larger variety between gameplay, which isn't entirely a bad idea. To be honest, if the gameplay is optional, I won't give a damn, but when the extra gameplay is forced upon you, like in SA2, or is needs to be completed to unlock the final boss, like SA1 and 06, then I have a problem with it. I don't want to be forced to play something I don't just to complete the story.

But anyway, like I said, the Adventure formula is just as flawed as the Unleashed formula. Unleashed is a tad too fast and has slippery controls at low speed. Adventures are a tad too slow and are jittery, twitchy controls at high speeds. Naturally, you'd want a game where the controls were nice and responsive at low speeds, but tight and fluid at High speed. You can start by either modifying the Heroes engine, OR you can start by modifying the Unleashed/Colours engine.

I say Heroes, because it was the closest we ever got to a compromise between Unleashed and SA2. It was faster than SA2 and slower than Unleashed. Only a little bit of fine-tuning, like making the controls slightly tighter, less slippery, and more fluid, will be nigh on perfect. Also fix the jump so that it carries inertia.

If you want to start from Unleashed, then you need to slow it down and tighten the low-speed controls, lower the acceleration, lower the top speed and fix the jump, so it carries inertia.

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Not exactly, they also tacked on the team gimmick. Isn't that the point of the name?

It still has no alternate gameplay, the gimmick is incooperated into the core gameplay(like Colors).

Sega made ShTH to gain fans from the shooter department. Sega didn't listen to the fans once during ShTH. No one in the fanbase was asking for Shadow to be equipped with guns.

It still has alot of Fanservice reminiscent of SA2.

Well 06 was crap.

Yeah, but it is still an attempt of creating an Adventure 3.

Because the Werehog sucked. The Adventure fans were able to tolerate the short shooting/treasure hunting levels, not the 20 min werehog levels. But, I know others liked that, but I personally am not into levels where half is decent platforming and other half is shallow combat.

I mostly ment before the game came out and people found out the length of the levels. Also Hunting can last a long time too, and combined with shooting it can take a quite a while to get to the next Sonic level.

Because they just prefer the Adventure formula overall, specifically the Sonic gameplay.

Never did I talk about those people.

Anyway, your claim that Sega was always listening to the fans I really just can't agree with, as Sega really hasn't given a damn about the fanbase until Colors. If Sega listened to fans, Sonic Heroes would've had no team gimmick, ShTH wouldn't have guns and shallow gameplay, Sonic 06 wouldn't be the mess it is, etc.

Colors has power-up gameplay but nobody really asked for that, and it turned out good.Same thing could have happened to the team gimmick. Obviously the quality of games hasn't been up to par,but the games used key elements of the Adventure games throughout,even tough they are not completly similar.And that's how I think it's bullshit that Sega has never been making games for people who liked the Adventure games.

Edited by ChikaBoing
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While reading last pages of the topic the only thing that comes to my mind is "double standarts".

Some of you say that "SA fans are bunch of fanatics and fanboys, cause they think that SA is greater than any game, and think that everything else sucks". You are right at some point, and in some cases. But you say this like if only SA fans behave themselves in a such way. Why don't you say so about retro fans, whos point of view can be described as an highly overrated towards their favourite games and contempt for everything that unlike it?

You ever though that SA fans just likes SA series more than other games? What is so bad that we love SA more than the games that you like more? Why is that SA fans are victims of a such misjudgement like being described as the completed fanatics, while others are not? For example I am personally annoyed by statements like "If that game is not 100% running platformer then it is not true Sonic and it is shit" and I am as much disapointed of it as much as you guys disapointed of SA fans. Why then I do not call those people a fanatics that do not want anything else but their precious classics gameplay, just like you did with SA fans?

Your attitude to the SA fans, as a major fanatics in fandom are nothing but a double standards, because if you look at things objectively, all your claims can be applied to all the fans, to SA fans, to Retro fans, to Colors fans - to all. In each part there are adequate users and fanatics, do not expose us, SA fans, as the worst and most annoying example.

It's funny; not that long ago (maybe a year or two), i made a topic where i ranted about being tired of the double standard which said that a person whose ideal future Sonic game was a game done in the style of the Mega Drive games was very likely to be accused of being a narrow-minded retro-fag, while a person whose ideal future Sonic game was one done in the style of the Adventure games usually never got accused of being "blinded by nostalgia" in the same way. I guess things have really changed a lot really fast regarding peoples perception of the Adventure games, which in turn have changed the way people react to those who think those games are the best in the series.

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mostly ment before the game came out and people found out the length of the levels. Also Hunting can last a long time too, and combined with shooting it can take a quite a while to get to the next Sonic level.

Colors has power-up gameplay but nobody really asked for that, and it turned out good.Same thing could have happened to the team gimmick. Obviously the quality of games hasn't been up to par,but the games used key elements of the Adventure games throughout,even tough they are not completly similar.And that's how I think it's bullshit that Sega has never been making games for people who liked the Adventure games.

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Sega always takes some advice from the community I guess, but they always seem to mess it up by adding their own little thing to it and making the quality horrible. People complain Sega doesn't listen to fans, because above all, fans just want quality games. So I'll admit, it makes since Sega somewhat listens. But it certainly wasn't enough in the past, considering the fact they didn't seem to really care about the quality until recently. Adventure fans still complain, because since the Adventure series, there has NOT been a game that has improved on the formula.

Not really dude, EVERY game after Sonic Adventure took some cues from it in some way. Homing atttack, Spin Dash, etc. it was all there. The only game I would say is radically different from the Adventure series are Unleashed/Colors and not by much considering its only the level design that's different and not the control scheme which is still pretty much the same as in the Adventure series, so yes the formula has been improved on, just not in a good way.

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Not really dude, EVERY game after Sonic Adventure took some cues from it in some way. Homing atttack, Spin Dash, etc. it was all there. The only game I would say is radically different from the Adventure series are Unleashed/Colors and not by much considering its only the level design that's different and not the control scheme which is still pretty much the same as in the Adventure series, so yes the formula has been improved on, just not in a good way.

...so does the Adventure series improve on the classic formula because there's jumping and spindash in it? No, absolutely not. It takes some qualities from the Adventure series, but above all, it's a completely different formula, because it feels alot different overall. It differs by alot, probably because the 3D sections still feel like linear kart racers to me. And there was never any 2D in the Adventure formula either. I'm sure Sega can make it more similar to the Adventure formula with the 3D sections, but I'd have to see it for myself to believe it. But to say the Unleashed/Colors formula is that similar to the Adventure formula is false in my opinion, because the feeling you get from both of them is VERY different. Colors is getting closer to the Adventure games though.

Edited by RidersDX
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...so does the Adventure series improve on the classic formula because there's jumping and spindash in it? No, absolutely not. It takes some qualities from the Adventure series, but above all, it's a completely different formula, because it feels alot different overall. It differs by alot, probably because the 3D sections still feel like linear kart racers to me. And there was never any 2D in the Adventure formula either. I'm sure Sega can make it more similar to the Adventure formula with the 3D sections, but I'd have to see it for myself to believe it. But to say the Unleashed/Colors formula is that similar to the Adventure formula is false in my opinion, because the feeling you get from both of them is VERY different. Colors is getting closer to the Adventure games though.

Like I said its the level design, and not the control scheme. Other than the level design I don't see much of a difference except for maybe more slippery controls. For the styles to be different it would have to be completely different, like Werehog different.

In Heroes: Three characters instead of two, other than that it still plays the same as SA2.

In Shadow: You're using guns, still plays like SA2.

In Sonic the Hedgehog(2006): Yeah, I think it speaks for itself.

Unleashed/Colors: More linear 3D levels, and some 2D thrown in, other than that plays the same.

Like I said, The Adventure formula has been improved, just not in a good way, I was just merely correcting you.

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Sega made ShTH to gain fans from the shooter department. Sega didn't listen to the fans once during ShTH. No one in the fanbase was asking for Shadow to be equipped with guns.

Actually, they did.

Not Shadow necessarily, but he was probably the only current character that could somewhat pull it off.

While reading last pages of the topic the only thing that comes to my mind is "double standarts".

Some of you say that "SA fans are bunch of fanatics and fanboys, cause they think that SA is greater than any game, and think that everything else sucks". You are right at some point, and in some cases. But you say this like if only SA fans behave themselves in a such way. Why don't you say so about retro fans, whos point of view can be described as an highly overrated towards their favourite games and contempt for everything that unlike it?

You ever though that SA fans just likes SA series more than other games? What is so bad that we love SA more than the games that you like more? Why is that SA fans are victims of a such misjudgement like being described as the completed fanatics, while others are not? For example I am personally annoyed by statements like "If that game is not 100% running platformer then it is not true Sonic and it is shit" and I am as much disapointed of it as much as you guys disapointed of SA fans. Why then I do not call those people a fanatics that do not want anything else but their precious classics gameplay, just like you did with SA fans?

Your attitude to the SA fans, as a major fanatics in fandom are nothing but a double standards, because if you look at things objectively, all your claims can be applied to all the fans, to SA fans, to Retro fans, to Colors fans - to all. In each part there are adequate users and fanatics, do not expose us, SA fans, as the worst and most annoying example.

Yes, because people have totally been saying that Adventure fanboys are the only ones capable of being stubborn and annoying. Oh wait, nobody said that.

Come on dude. As big as an Adventure fanatic as you are, you should be aware of terms like "2D pursuits" and "retrofags". Dumb words that modern fans use to attack obnoxious classic fans. It should be obvious that both groups have their elitists individuals. No need for you to act like Adventure fans are some poor victims.

Hence why I dislike both groups. Even though I'd say I'm mainly a classic fan, I can't stand the way some of them act like anything that isn't like the Genesis games. Especially when it comes to bickering about small stuff like Sonic's model and Eggman being called Robotnik or not. They are the same as the diehard Adventure fans to me. Both groups seem to want a game that's a copy 'n paste from whatever they wroshipped back in their childhood.

Though at least classic fanboys are worshipping games with a good formula.

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So, has there ever actually been a 3D Sonic game that was universally liked? Sonic still has yet to nail it, after a whole decade of trial and error. Can we at least agree to that?

I'll vote on this. *raises hand*

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