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Kuzu

Power Trio or Five Man Band?

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The protagonist of the series has grown in recent years, but a dynamic seems to have been formed around the specific characters in the Sonic Advance games: Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Cream.

Now I've heard people say that the cast in the adv. games were the best, and should appear in more 3D games, while I've heard others say it should just be the Big three.

Which do you prefer, which dynamic works better, for both story and gameplay purposes.

Also those who don't get the topic titles, look them up on Tvtropes.

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Neither. The Advance cast isn't a coherent team in any way, it's just a set of characters that showed up together in a few side games. And Team Sonic feels forced to me, mostly because of Knuckles; we've already had plenty of discussions about him, but to keep it short, I don't think he should act as a permanent party member.

With the size of the cast, I think it's better to keep Sonic's position more fluid. The only character that should be part of his "team" is Tails, and even then the two are independent enough to go off on their own business. This way other characters, or even groups of characters, can be rotated in as the plot demands, without instantly bloating the cast.

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Neither. The Advance cast isn't a coherent team in any way, it's just a set of characters that showed up together in a few side games. And Team Sonic feels forced to me, mostly because of Knuckles; we've already had plenty of discussions about him, but to keep it short, I don't think he should act as a permanent party member.

With the size of the cast, I think it's better to keep Sonic's position more fluid. The only character that should be part of his "team" is Tails, and even then the two are independent enough to go off on their own business. This way other characters, or even groups of characters, can be rotated in as the plot demands, without instantly bloating the cast.

Well considering those three/five have appeared more together than anyone else, it isn't too farfetched to call them a team.

And besides I actually like to be able to play as Knuckles again, and in a few games, instead of just one then let him be forgotten after a few years.

There are plenty of reasons that Knuckles can leave the island, or hell Sonic & Tails can even visit him on the island, he doesn't have to be alone all the time.

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I'd consider it Sonic and Tails mostly, with Knuckles coming in every once in a while. You see I'd like Knuckles to be the one to mend the trio together, but of course he was turned from a laid-back treasure hunter / adventurer that happens to guard some gems, to a guy that sits by a rock on an altar all day because it's the only thing he can do and bla bla bla. That topic however is for another topic, another day; so I won't go further.

Also the "five man group" concept the Advance series / Sonic X seemed to overpoweringly force was annoying and I hated it. Amy and Cream aren't exactly fit for Sonic's posse.

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I'd consider it Sonic and Tails mostly, with Knuckles coming in every once in a while. You see I'd like Knuckles to be the one to mend the trio together, but of course he was turned from a laid-back treasure hunter / adventurer that happens to guard some gems, to a guy that sits by a rock on an altar all day because it's the only thing he can do and bla bla bla. That topic however is for another topic, another day; so I won't go further.

Also the "five man group" concept the Advance series / Sonic X seemed to overpoweringly force was annoying and I hated it. Amy and Cream aren't exactly fit for Sonic's posse.

Its in the games too ya know, just not as blatant. And I know a few people who will flame you for saying that.

Curse this series for having so many awesome playable characters.

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Well considering those three/five have appeared more together than anyone else, it isn't too farfetched to call them a team.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are obviously a team, Team Sonic, though I question the value of it. The Advance "team" is really just a loose association of characters; they don't do anything team-like, they just happen to get involved in the same incidents (which is only two games, really).

And besides I actually like to be able to play as Knuckles again, and in a few games, instead of just one then let him be forgotten after a few years.

There are plenty of reasons that Knuckles can leave the island, or hell Sonic & Tails can even visit him on the island, he doesn't have to be alone all the time.

Hey, hey, I never said Knuckles can't show up again. I just don't want him to end up being like he was in Heroes and '06, neglecting his duty and shoehorned in just because he's part of the "team".

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Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are obviously a team, Team Sonic, though I question the value of it. The Advance "team" is really just a loose association of characters; they don't do anything team-like, they just happen to get involved in the same incidents (which is only two games, really).

Hey, hey, I never said Knuckles can't show up again. I just don't want him to end up being like he was in Heroes and '06, neglecting his duty and shoehorned in just because he's part of the "team".

Well not exactly the adv. cast, more specifically Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy. Not only have they appeared in fair number of games together, they're also the most mainstream characters if you think about it.

I never said he should be shoehorned either. I'm just saying if there's shit going down, I doubt he would just ignore it and leave it to someone else.

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I just wonder whatever happened to Knuckles getting up from his altar and actually doing what he wanted every now and then.

Call it bad writing or not, I still recall during SA2 that Knuckles could shrink the Master Emerald and place it in his hammerspace. I know the island would fall because of this, but what if he just carried the M.E. with him as he went on his escapades to do some treasure hunting / chillin' in the forest? I've never seen the significance as to why the island floating matters so much, besides the fact that it defines why the island is called what it is. Even though it's up in the air and thus harder to reach for a good bit of people, it's not like Tails or Eggman couldn't just go up there in their aircrafts with ease. Besides, without the Master Emerald there's nothing to go there for anyways. Then there's the issue with Knuckles being the god-mode character because he has it on at all times. How do we know the Master Emerald does anything more radiate sparks of energy or manipulate powers of all seven Chaos Emeralds ("chaos is power, enriched by the heart")?

..Jeez, Cody, you said you wasn't going to get into this. :I

The Advance "team" is really just a loose association of characters; they don't do anything team-like, they just happen to get involved in the same incidents (which is only two games, really).

True, but the way Sega managed everything during that time almost seemed like they were intended those five as the main protagonists of the series. Definitely on my "do not want" list.

I oppose that layout of characters for the most part because it filled ridiculous anime stereotype categories: Sonic as the aloof and goofy one that's all friendly but saves the day, Tails as the smart kid that leaves and breathes mechanics and technology, Knuckles as the tough-guy loner idiot that's ruthlessly gullible, Amy as the angry whiny obsessive girl that stalks the hero (and even has the big hammer!), and Cream as the kawaii polite girl about as interesting as cardboard.

Edited by Azukara

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Dio always seems to be the person I agree with nowadays, so there's no sense in me parroting the words.

But just for the hell of it, just stick to the two man Sonic and Tails. Knuckles only if the plot can allow it, but otherwise shouldn't be treated as valuable, and Amy just for whenever you feel like giving Sonic a headache. :lol:

Cream needs to be heavily reworked because as of now she's a bit redundant. But true to my standards, don't throw her away, period. I won't let Big be tossed aside, so obviously I'm not going to have my other least like character get the boot either. But otherwise, let's be less predictable and mix up the teams characters; we know how tight the folks in Team Sonic are, so let's see how they are with other groups.

Call it bad writing or not, I still recall during SA2 that Knuckles could shrink the Master Emerald and place it in his hammerspace. I know the island would fall because of this, but what if he just carried the M.E. with him as he went on his escapades to do some treasure hunting / chillin' in the forest? I've never seen the significance as to why the island floating matters so much, besides the fact that it defines why the island is called what it is. Even though it's up in the air and thus harder to reach for a good bit of people, it's not like Tails or Eggman couldn't just go up there in their aircrafts with ease. Besides, without the Master Emerald there's nothing to go there for anyways.

Azukara, we've had this discussion many times before in the past, and now you're going even further by neglecting most of the factors that not only help in protecting the Master Emerald more than just Knuckles himself, but you're also throwing away something equally valuable to Knuckles in the sense of how the Floating Island is connected to him even if indirectly. The island's history with Knuckles' ancestors should be one thing very significant that shouldn't go over your head like that, dude.

If you want Knuckles more involved, write it so that the events allow him more freedom and such. I've came up with at least three ways you can do that:

-we can use material from Chronicles, like using Shade to act as a secondary guardian with Knuckles

-we can have GUN use the island as a protectorate and base, not only making the island more valuable to Knuckles and providing extra protection to the M.E., but with GUN being involved in safeguarding it, anything important on that island becomes just as important to characters such as Team Dark who will help to get it back

-or do both, which would make something simple such as landing on the island without permission an even more suicidal idea for potential intruders that takes balls of titanium to actually attempt and succeed.

And even then we should be moderate in using the character.

But as a warning, neglecting it outright and disregarding its significance to the character will end up making the double standard between him and newer characters worse to the point of being outright hypocritical, and we can certainly do with less of that from any faction of fans.

...that is unless you're going to have Knuckles and Shadow fight each other. If that happens and is done decently, I'll completely ignore the M.E. and the Floating Island for that one instance, and that's a promise.

I never said he should be shoehorned either. I'm just saying if there's shit going down, I doubt he would just ignore it and leave it to someone else.

But that can be said even more so for characters like Shadow and Rouge who both work for GUN respectively and would actually have an even bigger excuse to get involved.

However, in Unleashed and Colors they pretty much did ignore everything and left it to someone else as they were no where to be seen. And Sonic cleaned up the mess without any help except for one or two people in the case of those games, so that's not something to bring Knuckles in for.

So it's not a case of shit going down rather than it being if shit actually bothers and involves them near the point that they have no choice or something along those lines. Otherwise, if someone else can handle it, then it isn't something they should lose sleep over or get involved if they don't have to.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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Dio always seems to be the person I agree with nowadays, so there's no sense in me parroting the words.

But that can be said even more so for characters like Shadow and Rouge who both work for GUN respectively and would actually have an even bigger excuse to get involved.

However, in Unleashed and Colors they pretty much did ignore everything and left it to someone else as they were no where to be seen. And Sonic cleaned up the mess without any help except for one or two people in the case of those games, so that's not something to bring Knuckles in for.

So it's not a case of shit going down rather than it being if shit actually bothers and involves them near the point that they have no choice or something along those lines. Otherwise, if someone else can handle it, then it isn't something they should lose sleep over or get involved if they don't have to.

I was talking from a story perspective. Knuckles(Or most of the other characters) weren't written into Unleashed/Colors at all, for all we know Knuckles could've been fighting off Dark Gaia's minions on his island, while Shadow was investigating the whole incident while Sonic was playing hero. So yeah its like you said if they choose to get involved, or if it involves them directly.

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I was talking from a story perspective.

I was too. That's the area I'm strongest at even tho I hold the belief that it's secondary to gameplay.

Knuckles(Or most of the other characters) weren't written into Unleashed/Colors at all, for all we know Knuckles could've been fighting off Dark Gaia's minions on his island, while Shadow was investigating the whole incident while Sonic was playing hero.

You'd think something like that would be more significant that throwing in Amy who contributed the very least to Unleashed's plot.

And it's even funnier considering that those are one of the games where I trully believe Knuckles and Shadow should have been involved in due to one being a global catastrophe and the other being a suspicious, but less obvious scheme that could've been investigated by more than just Sonic.

Compare that to their involvements Heroes and/or Sonic 06.

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Im kinda glad that Sega recently seems to have ditched the idea that Amy and Cream belongs in the same basic group of heroes as the terrific trio. The team consisting of Sonic, Tails and Knuckles have a nice internal balance both in terms of the characters personalities and (especially) abilities. You dont need Amy's hammer when you've got Knuckles fists, and you you dont need Cream's ears when you've got Tails tails.

I for one do think Knuckles should show up almost as often as Tails. As much as i like Sonic and Tails as a duo, i think their trio with Knux is the series most awesome force. Having other playable protagonists in the games is fine, but they shouldn't be raised to a higher importance than this trio (or if they are, then it should at least be a rare occurrence).

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My personal belief is in the Duet... namely, Sonic and Tails. While I am a huge fan of Knuckles, don't get me wrong, I find that he's either limited by his responsibility to the Master Emerald or, thanks to efforts to escape that plot requirement, pointlessly tagging along. He shows little warm friendship to anybody, including Sonic, and therefore would have no character-established reason to say "I'll drop everything and help you out, Sonic!" as others would.

Amy Rose, bless her, is even more pointless. I wish she'd be written with more depth, I really would. Thusfar, she amounts to a squealing fangirl and that does nothing but needlessly complicate the action. For example, in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), she rescues Princess Elise from captivity only for the Princess to be kidnapped again. One could delete that entire sequence of cutscenes and be no less informed. Even in Sonic Unleashed, where she was the only major recurring hero besides the Dynamic Duo, she did nothing. She just stood around, usually somewhere close to Professor Pickle, and said things. Pointless things. Things unrelated to the storyline. Yes, okay, she perhaps enriches and widens the scope of Sonic's world in doing so, making it seem more realistic, but still... Amy needs to have plot. She needs to have development. She needs a role (beyond the horrible cliché of "squee, I love Sonic" that, personally, I've seen more than enough of).

Which brings me to Cream the Rabbit. I find it odd that Shadow the Hedgehog is discounted from the discussion because of his own team. Forgive me, but isn't there a Team Rose? It includes Amy Rose, Cream the Rabbit and an interchangeable third member (first Big the Cat, in Sonic Heroes, and then Vector the Crocodile, in Sonic Free Riders, I believe). Granted that the base of this discussion revolves around Sonic Advance, but I tend to look upon those videogames as having a variety of individual playable characters. In the first instance, Cream wasn't even there and, in the entire trilogy, not once was it suggested that the five heroes were a united force. During Sonic Advance 2, additional characters were unlocked as Sonic encountered them during the storyline. When it came to Sonic Advance 3, a double-team gameplay gimmick was the only suggestion that they could unite together... and even then, unity was limited to pairs. I find it much easier to define the teams, therefore, using the rules of Sonic Heroes. As such, I don't class neither Amy nor Cream as part of the core hero set. They've got their own team.

To discount the team mechanic and expand the parameters would declare open season on that fifth member. I would therefore personally rate Shadow the Hedgehog a more important character than Cream the Rabbit (not out of personal preference, I hasten to add: despite appearances to the contrary, Shadow is far from my favourite character in the franchise). Cutting a long story short, therefore, my answer would be one of the following options... either stick to Team Sonic, and give Knuckles a good story reason for tagging along, or let a well-written story dictate who is needed and when.

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I read this and thought to myself "Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Shadow".

Not necessarily because I personally want them as a group; they just stood out to me because they're the five heroes on the Sonic section banner of the SEGA forums. Evidently, some branch of SEGA (probably some obscure marketing branch of SEGA Of America, but still) values these as the five most worthy characters to put on the banner, and I think it's a just group of people.

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My favourite trio is the one in Unleashed: Sonic, Tails and Amy. They make a lot more sense than Knuckles ignoring his duties, Amy works as a "power" type if it's that sort of game just as well as Knuckles, and putting her next to Sonic all the way through a game gives her opportunity to act like a fellow best friend, rather than the stalker-fangirl mode she seems to get in games where she has limited contact with Sonic.

But I agree if there are five main characters in the series they are Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Shadow.

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My personal belief is in the Duet... namely, Sonic and Tails. While I am a huge fan of Knuckles, don't get me wrong, I find that he's either limited by his responsibility to the Master Emerald or, thanks to efforts to escape that plot requirement, pointlessly tagging along. He shows little warm friendship to anybody, including Sonic, and therefore would have no character-established reason to say "I'll drop everything and help you out, Sonic!" as others would.

Amy Rose, bless her, is even more pointless. I wish she'd be written with more depth, I really would. Thusfar, she amounts to a squealing fangirl and that does nothing but needlessly complicate the action. For example, in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), she rescues Princess Elise from captivity only for the Princess to be kidnapped again. One could delete that entire sequence of cutscenes and be no less informed. Even in Sonic Unleashed, where she was the only major recurring hero besides the Dynamic Duo, she did nothing. She just stood around, usually somewhere close to Professor Pickle, and said things. Pointless things. Things unrelated to the storyline. Yes, okay, she perhaps enriches and widens the scope of Sonic's world in doing so, making it seem more realistic, but still... Amy needs to have plot. She needs to have development. She needs a role (beyond the horrible cliché of "squee, I love Sonic" that, personally, I've seen more than enough of).

Which brings me to Cream the Rabbit. I find it odd that Shadow the Hedgehog is discounted from the discussion because of his own team. Forgive me, but isn't there a Team Rose? It includes Amy Rose, Cream the Rabbit and an interchangeable third member (first Big the Cat, in Sonic Heroes, and then Vector the Crocodile, in Sonic Free Riders, I believe). Granted that the base of this discussion revolves around Sonic Advance, but I tend to look upon those videogames as having a variety of individual playable characters. In the first instance, Cream wasn't even there and, in the entire trilogy, not once was it suggested that the five heroes were a united force. During Sonic Advance 2, additional characters were unlocked as Sonic encountered them during the storyline. When it came to Sonic Advance 3, a double-team gameplay gimmick was the only suggestion that they could unite together... and even then, unity was limited to pairs. I find it much easier to define the teams, therefore, using the rules of Sonic Heroes. As such, I don't class neither Amy nor Cream as part of the core hero set. They've got their own team.

To discount the team mechanic and expand the parameters would declare open season on that fifth member. I would therefore personally rate Shadow the Hedgehog a more important character than Cream the Rabbit (not out of personal preference, I hasten to add: despite appearances to the contrary, Shadow is far from my favourite character in the franchise). Cutting a long story short, therefore, my answer would be one of the following options... either stick to Team Sonic, and give Knuckles a good story reason for tagging along, or let a well-written story dictate who is needed and when.

Well considering Sonic did save Knuckles` entire island, I would imagine he owes him.

Amy(God bless her soul) has suffered massive Flanderization in recent years, so as such people's opinion on her are far more negative than anything else. But she kinda adds emotional support to a story line, I mean yeah, sure its not the most important thing in a plot, but its something(I did kinda like her scenes with Elise and Sonic in 06 and Unleashed, even if they had nothing to do with the plot), a plot doesn't need to consist of just "Something Bad is happening, stop it". Also we have new writers now(Provided they're still around), I mean they kinda redeemed Sonic & Tails in my eyes, so its not too off they can do the same for the her.

Truth be told, I'm not against having five playable characters in one game, but like Dio, and CSS said in their post, mixing it up with Sonic & Tails being the only consistent ones, leaving three open spots for whoever, or just have Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and whoever. I opened this topic, because I hear about this "Team" ALL THE TIME on the Sega forums, and so I decided to adress it.

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Team Sonic is one of the most bullshit idea that has ever occurred to Sonic Team. Because this so-called trio completely destroyed all advantages of Knux as a character. His decline as a character started exactly at the moment when ST turned independent Guardian into faceless sidekick №2. Generally, the whole concept of Team Sonic is a complete lame miscarriage of solution to combine a bunch of characters in these ill-fated trios, just to use the concept of teamwork in SH. This bullshit was remained in games for too long.

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It's the Dynamic Duo all the way, for me. Sonic and Tails are the ultimate tag-team and I really wanna see more of it. Their personalities and skills really compliment each other and I just can't think of one without the other.

Having said that, I do also adore the Triple Threat and would love to see more of that, too, as long as it's relevant and believable, rather than forced or contrived. The reasoning behind Heroes' set-up was weak, but the Speed/Flight/Power triad worked really well as a concept for a well-rounded team with unique strengths and weaknesses depending on who was being used.

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Azukara, we've had this discussion many times before in the past, and now you're going even further by neglecting most of the factors that not only help in protecting the Master Emerald more than just Knuckles himself, but you're also throwing away something equally valuable to Knuckles in the sense of how the Floating Island is connected to him even if indirectly. The island's history with Knuckles' ancestors should be one thing very significant that shouldn't go over your head like that, dude.

If you want Knuckles more involved, write it so that the events allow him more freedom and such. I've came up with at least three ways you can do that:

-we can use material from Chronicles, like using Shade to act as a secondary guardian with Knuckles

-we can have GUN use the island as a protectorate and base, not only making the island more valuable to Knuckles and providing extra protection to the M.E., but with GUN being involved in safeguarding it, anything important on that island becomes just as important to characters such as Team Dark who will help to get it back

-or do both, which would make something simple such as landing on the island without permission an even more suicidal idea for potential intruders that takes balls of titanium to actually attempt and succeed.

And even then we should be moderate in using the character.

But as a warning, neglecting it outright and disregarding its significance to the character will end up making the double standard between him and newer characters worse to the point of being outright hypocritical, and we can certainly do with less of that from any faction of fans.

...that is unless you're going to have Knuckles and Shadow fight each other. If that happens and is done decently, I'll completely ignore the M.E. and the Floating Island for that one instance, and that's a promise.

I'd rather not use Shade within the main canon, nor bring back GUN as a central focus behind a certain motive. GUN brings what feels too much like a governmental neutral force that kinda bogs down the otherwise-lighthearted series tone. I don't see why Knuckles has to boil down to making plans with the military just to get away from his island. Besides, with Rouge working for GUN there's no way he could trust them.

Of course when I mention the retooling of a character's personality and motives, I like to imagine rewriting things. With Knuckles in his current state, there's nothing you can really do to make Knuckles closer to Sonic and Tails without either convoluting it or having to completely rewrite (and ignore) certain qualities that make it that way. My basic idea is that Knuckles could've been taken into an alternate direction than what they did with him after S3K, but because they went the way they did the character is essentially a dead-end character that can't really be used in anything without his precious rock and his island being forced into a major peice of the storyline.

Blame it on me growing up with the OVA, but I always found Knuckles more appealing as an adventurer and treasure hunter that was the know-it-all regarding the world around him (being one with nature), and being a sacred guardian of Chaos energy.

Team Sonic is one of the most bullshit idea that has ever occurred to Sonic Team. Because this so-called trio completely destroyed all advantages of Knux as a character. His decline as a character started exactly at the moment when ST turned independent Guardian into faceless sidekick №2. Generally, the whole concept of Team Sonic is a complete lame miscarriage of solution to combine a bunch of characters in these ill-fated trios, just to use the concept of teamwork in SH. This bullshit was remained in games for too long.

..For too long? They only did it for two games (not counting non-canon spinoffs). I have to say that this whole 'loner guardian stuck on an island altar' is what's killing Knuckles, but I won't deny 'dumb sidekick that punches things' isn't any better. Knuckles has kind of been screwed ever since they went farther than S3K.

Edited by Azukara

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Team Sonic is one of the most bullshit idea that has ever occurred to Sonic Team. Because this so-called trio completely destroyed all advantages of Knux as a character. His decline as a character started exactly at the moment when ST turned independent Guardian into faceless sidekick №2. Generally, the whole concept of Team Sonic is a complete lame miscarriage of solution to combine a bunch of characters in these ill-fated trios, just to use the concept of teamwork in SH. This bullshit was remained in games for too long.

Despite the fact that they teamed up in: Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Sonic Adventure, and Sonic Adventure 2 LONG before Knuckles had his decline. Its not the team dude, its how its handled.

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I dont understand why so many people seem to oppose the idea of Sonic teaming up with Knuckles more often than he does with the other characters (sans Tails, but that goes without saying). I mean, nearly all characters in the series spend more time with certain characters than they do with the others. Amy is more often seen with Cream than with Espio, Shadow is more often seen with Omega than with Big. And Sonic is more often seen with Knuckles than with pretty much anyone who isn't Tails. What's so wrong about that?

I will admit that i can see the validity of the criticism that Knuckles shouldn't leave the ME behind without good reason, but i get the impression that some people oppose the basic idea that Sonic teams up with Knuckles more often than with other characters, regardless of whether the whole issue of what to do with the ME is resolved or not.

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