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Power Trio or Five Man Band?


Kuzu

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I dont understand why so many people seem to oppose the idea of Sonic teaming up with Knuckles more often than he does with the other characters (sans Tails, but that goes without saying). I mean, nearly all characters in the series spend more time with certain characters than they do with the others. Amy is more often seen with Cream than with Espio, Shadow is more often seen with Omega than with Big. And Sonic is more often seen with Knuckles than with pretty much anyone who isn't Tails. What's so wrong about that?

I will admit that i can see the validity of the criticism that Knuckles shouldn't leave the ME behind without good reason, but i get the impression that some people oppose the basic idea that Sonic teams up with Knuckles more often than with other characters, regardless of whether the whole issue of what to do with the ME is resolved or not.

Hell aside from Tails, Sonic & Knuckles are pretty much best friends. So why is it when Knuckles teams with Sonic, people whine. I mean I can understand if the M.E. wasn't mentioned, and he was just there to be there. But if he has a legitimate reason to be with Sonic, and help him out, what's there to complain about. I understand Knuckles has a duty that's he's commited too, but he also should have some freedom to something he likes. At the very least he can visit Tails considering his workshop is literally right below him.

Actually. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy spend more time together thant they do with any of the other characters, so seeing them together shouldn't be TOO farfetched.

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I'd rather not use Shade within the main canon,

Any strong justifications as to why? Because I have some pretty strong counterexamples for the more obvious reasons people choose not to use her:

From what I hear the character's portrayal in Chronicles was rather bland. Not having played the game myself, I'll simply have to take their word for it. However, given how Chronicles is in the dark to most people like Rivals, I say that can serve to our advantage by retconning the story from the DS and altering some areas so that her portrayal isn't as weak.

The other reason would be Knuckles uniqueness to being the last of his race. If you think her inclusion into the main canon will take that away, keep in mind that this is another hypocritical path you would wind up taking. For one, you're willing to throw away the Master Emerald which something unique to Knuckles, but at the same time you're against having another echidna around which would mean that Knuckles' status as the last of his race isn't unique and is completely nonexistent.

In addition, Shade could potential open even more doors for Knuckles development, although just so we're clear, I'm not talking about them being love interests. With Shade being from a different tribe than Knuckles from what I've read about her, and then she joins the heroes, she could very well be used to broaden the interactions Knuckles in regards to being with another character. I mean really, this is just summarizing it. If I go any further, this thing could be 2 pages long on paper.

nor bring back GUN as a central focus behind a certain motive. GUN brings what feels too much like a governmental neutral force that kinda bogs down the otherwise-lighthearted series tone.

Exactly what is it that prevents us from altering that so they can fit within the tone of the series?

I don't see why Knuckles has to boil down to making plans with the military just to get away from his island. Besides, with Rouge working for GUN there's no way he could trust them.

That was just a summarized idea. But I didn't have it to where Knuckles goes to GUN personally and ask them to protect his island.

The initial idea would be GUN invading his island because they're tailing Eggman, and in doing so causes a massive 3-pronged war on that one place because they put such a high priority on Eggman that they're neglecting the fact they're on someone else's territory. Knuckles is not only combating Eggman, but he's also fighting GUN who weren't given a welcome notice, and as a result Team Dark get's involved. At some point, Sonic and Tails end up getting involved, for obvious reasons regarding Eggman, but are also their to help Knuckles combat the neutral forces of GUN. The climax occurs, and such and such, but by the end of it, GUN and Team Sonic come to an understanding and after defeating Eggman, GUN offers to help protect the Island as a way to make amends. In doing so, GUN acknowledges the high priority of the Master Emerald to Knuckles and virtually the whole world and provides even more defense for the powerful stone. And in acknowledging the Master Emerald, they will also acknowledge Rouge's interest in the stone and ban her from trying to lay hands on it for reasons other than protecting it; should she disobey and try her luck, GUN will punish her for it.

To further make amends, Knuckles still has control over his island. So aside from certain situations, Knuckles authority there goes unquestioned from those of the lower ranks, with a few exceptions just to make things more dynamic. Also, in doing this it makes things even more fair regarding his apperances. Since the island is protected regardless if he's there or not, he's free to leave as he pleases. And it also makes things fair regarding Shadow and Rouge's apperances. Should someone succeed in landing on the island and actually making off with the emerald, not only do they have Knuckles to deal with, but he has Team Dark as back up.

This serves to make the characters involved even MORE useful than they originally were in the pass and betters their development. Not to mention it bypasses every problem associated with the characters mentioned without ruining them. If that isn't good enough of an idea to consider, then I don't think you're doing the character any justice.

Of course when I mention the retooling of a character's personality and motives, I like to imagine rewriting things. With Knuckles in his current state, there's nothing you can really do to make Knuckles closer to Sonic and Tails without either convoluting it or having to completely rewrite (and ignore) certain qualities that make it that way. My basic idea is that Knuckles could've been taken into an alternate direction than what they did with him after S3K, but because they went the way they did the character is essentially a dead-end character that can't really be used in anything without his precious rock and his island being forced into a major peice of the storyline.

But you know my saying: If your going to allow that leeway to happen for one character, you should be prepared to allow it for every other character as well. Giving one character freedom from things associated with them without good reason allows for even the most minor of characters to have the same opportunity.

I dont understand why so many people seem to oppose the idea of Sonic teaming up with Knuckles more often than he does with the other characters (sans Tails, but that goes without saying). I mean, nearly all characters in the series spend more time with certain characters than they do with the others. Amy is more often seen with Cream than with Espio, Shadow is more often seen with Omega than with Big. And Sonic is more often seen with Knuckles than with pretty much anyone who isn't Tails. What's so wrong about that?

Because we can do more than just having characters spend time with the characters they've always been around with. It doesn't do a lot of development the longer they associate with the same characters they've always been with, and can lead to stagnation if overused. That and we can make a lot more interesting situation with them.

I will admit that i can see the validity of the criticism that Knuckles shouldn't leave the ME behind without good reason, but i get the impression that some people oppose the basic idea that Sonic teams up with Knuckles more often than with other characters, regardless of whether the whole issue of what to do with the ME is resolved or not.

That's the result of a double standard where people say that the Classic characters sticking with each other and be allowed anywhere regardless of plot while the Modern characters should be relegated to whether the plot should allow them, and even then some want to avoid using modern characters as much as possible.

So some people wanted things actually being fair instead of one-sided and biased. Simply put, if you're not going to allow Shadow to be used because you think the plot doesn't have a legitimate reason for it, then neither should characters like Knuckles when the plot doesn't allow it either regardless of how classic he is. On the flipside, if Knuckles is free to shirk off his duties just to be involved and help Sonic out, so do characters like Shadow, or hell even Cream the Rabbit of all characters.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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but because they went the way they did the character is essentially a dead-end character that can't really be used in anything without his precious rock and his island being forced into a major peice of the storyline.
Nope! Knuckles having a duty to protect the Master Emerald and his island does not prevent him from still going out and helping Sonic from time to time. These things should be respected as part of his character, and used when it's reasonable to do so, but he can still leave for other business without it going against his character. The problem is that they use him for almost nothing but "other business".

Despite the fact that they teamed up in: Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Sonic Adventure, and Sonic Adventure 2 LONG before Knuckles had his decline.
You really can't compare these. In S3&K they're enemies for most of the game, and the only time they work together is Knuckles bringing them to Sky Sanctuary, at which point he pulls a "go on without me". In SA, Knuckles is off doing his own thing and only runs into Sonic and Tails by coincidence. And while SA2 groups the three under the Hero side, Knuckles still spends most of the game searching for emerald shards on his own, only teaming up with the rest of the heroes for the assault on Eggman's pyramid base.

Its not the team dude, its how its handled.
Putting him on a team is part of how he's handled.

I dont understand why so many people seem to oppose the idea of Sonic teaming up with Knuckles more often than he does with the other characters (sans Tails, but that goes without saying).
Knuckles has a duty that ties him to a particular location, thus he is less free to appear wherever Sonic is than most other characters. I do agree that he is on a higher importance tier than most of the cast, but that's not the only factor here. And it depends on what "other characters" we're talking about. Should Knuckles going to show up more often than Big? Of course, Big has almost no importance in the series, and little reason to leave the Mystic Ruins. Should Knuckles going to show up more often than Shadow? Maybe, maybe not; character importance is arguable, but Shadow is more free to move around, and has a bit more reason to be involved in stopping Eggman's schemes. More often than Amy? Probably not; she's a pretty important support character, and she's got no apparent obligations, so she's free to follow Sonic to the ends of the Earth.

Any strong justifications as to why?
Chronicles is almost certainly not canon, therefore Shade doesn't even exist.
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Chronicles is almost certainly not canon, therefore Shade doesn't even exist.

Yeah, I know that. That's one reason I brought in the idea of retconning it...although I'll admit, I didn't really focus on the noncanon part as I should've. :lol:

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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You really can't compare these. In S3&K they're enemies for most of the game, and the only time they work together is Knuckles bringing them to Sky Sanctuary, at which point he pulls a "go on without me". In SA, Knuckles is off doing his own thing and only runs into Sonic and Tails by coincidence. And while SA2 groups the three under the Hero side, Knuckles still spends most of the game searching for emerald shards on his own, only teaming up with the rest of the heroes for the assault on Eggman's pyramid base.

Putting him on a team is part of how he's handled.

One thing I really like in SA2 is that in one line the relationship between Sonic and Knuckles can be determined: " I'm worried about Amy and Tails. I hate to ask, but could you help them?"

I think it shows while they aren't great friends, they do have respect for one another.

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The initial idea would be GUN invading his island because they're tailing Eggman, and in doing so causes a massive 3-pronged war on that one place because they put such a high priority on Eggman that they're neglecting the fact they're on someone else's territory. Knuckles is not only combating Eggman, but he's also fighting GUN who weren't given a welcome notice, and as a result Team Dark get's involved. At some point, Sonic and Tails end up getting involved, for obvious reasons regarding Eggman, but are also their to help Knuckles combat the neutral forces of GUN. The climax occurs, and such and such, but by the end of it, GUN and Team Sonic come to an understanding and after defeating Eggman, GUN offers to help protect the Island as a way to make amends. In doing so, GUN acknowledges the high priority of the Master Emerald to Knuckles and virtually the whole world and provides even more defense for the powerful stone. And in acknowledging the Master Emerald, they will also acknowledge Rouge's interest in the stone and ban her from trying to lay hands on it for reasons other than protecting it; should she disobey and try her luck, GUN will punish her for it.

To further make amends, Knuckles still has control over his island. So aside from certain situations, Knuckles authority there goes unquestioned from those of the lower ranks, with a few exceptions just to make things more dynamic. Also, in doing this it makes things even more fair regarding his apperances. Since the island is protected regardless if he's there or not, he's free to leave as he pleases. And it also makes things fair regarding Shadow and Rouge's apperances. Should someone succeed in landing on the island and actually making off with the emerald, not only do they have Knuckles to deal with, but he has Team Dark as back up.

This serves to make the characters involved even MORE useful than they originally were in the pass and betters their development. Not to mention it bypasses every problem associated with the characters mentioned without ruining them. If that isn't good enough of an idea to consider, then I don't think you're doing the character any justice.

I can accept this idea in ways, but honestly it seems a bit complicated and slightly unsettling, especially since it is afterall GUN. I've never been too keen on GUN (besides being the guards to the city of Station Square), possibly because they are a gritty and dark human-led military that kind of tampers with the otherwise lighthearted feel of the majority of the Sonic series. It could work out, although I'd hope for it not to be something that intertwines with Knuckles all too much.

But you know my saying: If your going to allow that leeway to happen for one character, you should be prepared to allow it for every other character as well. Giving one character freedom from things associated with them without good reason allows for even the most minor of characters to have the same opportunity.

I'd rather have a solid set of main characters and alot of minor characters than have two main characters (a protagonist and an antagonist) with every other character being of equal worth. The reason I'm sure the 'classic trio' is favored because their designs, personalities and attributes all compliment themselves and flesh out the main character more. Tails is Sonic's naive but loyal sidekick / surrogate little brother, and Knuckles is Sonic's competitive scuffle-buddy that Sonic can consider more of a steadfast friend than one he has to be a mentor for.

And before you ask "Then why not use other characters to fill those roles as well?", I think it'd be better to use characters the series that have been there the longest and simultaneously can fit the role. Point and call "stubborn classic purist" all you like, but I believe the Triple Threat is the most appealing trio there is, and there's tons of possibilities open with them. Blame the OVA for doing that to me. :P

Because we can do more than just having characters spend time with the characters they've always been around with. It doesn't do a lot of development the longer they associate with the same characters they've always been with, and can lead to stagnation if overused. That and we can make a lot more interesting situation with them.

Can they, or have they only stagnated because Sega made them do it? Bad writing can partially be blamed for that. Besides, if it was considered bad to focus on only so many characters for so long, then the Sonic-Eggbotnik dynamic would've died a long time ago.

That's the result of a double standard where people say that the Classic characters sticking with each other and be allowed anywhere regardless of plot while the Modern characters should be relegated to whether the plot should allow them, and even then some want to avoid using modern characters as much as possible.

So some people wanted things actually being fair instead of one-sided and biased. Simply put, if you're not going to allow Shadow to be used because you think the plot doesn't have a legitimate reason for it, then neither should characters like Knuckles when the plot doesn't allow it either regardless of how classic he is. On the flipside, if Knuckles is free to shirk off his duties just to be involved and help Sonic out, so do characters like Shadow, or hell even Cream the Rabbit of all characters.

Calm down with the judgement bro.

Preferring Sonic, Tails and Knuckles as the main protagonists != being a rigid classic purist with double standards.

May be repeating what I just said, but I think using the first characters Sonic Team made would do a good job filling the need for a constant cast of main protagonists. You could still have recurring major characters that aren't part of the main cast (Amy, Shadow, Cream, etc.), and they can have large importance to the given storyline or have lots of interaction. There's no stopping that. I just think those three characters should still be the main good guys. The hero, his little sidekick brother, and his competitive best friend. Of course that's my opinion so feel free to hate disagree all you like. :P

Nope! Knuckles having a duty to protect the Master Emerald and his island does not prevent him from still going out and helping Sonic from time to time. These things should be respected as part of his character, and used when it's reasonable to do so, but he can still leave for other business without it going against his character. The problem is that they use him for almost nothing but "other business".

I don't want to remove the responsibility of the M.E. from his motives, I just don't want it to control his mere existance like it has in every title where he wasn't mindlessly thrown in (see: Heroes and Nextgen, several spinoffs).

Also, @ChaosSurpremeSonic:

Chronicles is almost certainly not canon, therefore Shade doesn't even exist.

That's the main reason I decided against Shade. I would say otherwise if she actually meant anything towards the canon. :P

Edited by Azukara
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Main cast should be Sonic, Tails and ye olde Knux.

In fact, for most of the plot, Knuckles doesn't even need to be involved with Sonic and Tails. He can make an appearance here are there during Sonic and Tails' story to aid them, however, his own story should be just that, his own story. I dunnot, he could be defending his island from the likes of GUN, instead of having Robotnik as his principle adversary. Or, he could be caught in the middle of a small "war" between GUN and Robotnik, and gets involved to prevent damage to his island. Or if he is needed extensively in the plot, you can have Robotnik steal it, or Knux could get his bitches the Chaotix to look after it for him, for a while

As for the main secondary cast, that would be Amy (lead female, supports Sonic, not directly involved in gameplay), Shadow (an extra hand, a more aggressive version Knuckles, but still respectful of Sonic), Omega (Supports Shadow, intel and suchlike), Rouge (supporting female, loose cannon, can support GUN, Shadow or Robotnik depending on what she's gaining from it)

The main three should be playable, even if the majority of their stories don't intertwine. Shadow could have his own little story, which is similar to Sonic's story, but is harder.

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First, I enjoyed to read ChaosSupremeSonic's and Glenn's posts. They had the most complete answers in this T.

After reading all of you, now I think that mostly of you have the reason: Knuckles wouldn't be a side-kick unless the Master Emerald is in danger. And if it's in danger, he's going to make his own way to save it. Thus, in that scenario, Sonic and Tails would be his side-kicks.

Sonic & Shadow would never work together as well as the Dynamic Duo. If we are going to speak about "teams" (and including all the stories together) there should be only 3 teams: The Dynamic Duo, the GUN Special Agents and The Echidnas. But, making a game with 3 teams with their respective storylines and relevance in the plot, is going to make someone think: "Hey, isn't that like.... Sonic 06..?". Fuck the poors, I say. I'm not speaking here about gameplay, or not even Sonic 06, I'm just saying an idea if someone (like me) who want to see the characters in a game with some SENSE into their appearances.

EDIT: Three teams of two characters each, if not well understood.

Edited by Ragnak
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Main cast should be Sonic, Tails and ye olde Knux.

In fact, for most of the plot, Knuckles doesn't even need to be involved with Sonic and Tails. He can make an appearance here are there during Sonic and Tails' story to aid them, however, his own story should be just that, his own story. I dunnot, he could be defending his island from the likes of GUN, instead of having Robotnik as his principle adversary. Or, he could be caught in the middle of a small "war" between GUN and Robotnik, and gets involved to prevent damage to his island. Or if he is needed extensively in the plot, you can have Robotnik steal it, or Knux could get his bitches the Chaotix to look after it for him, for a while

As for the main secondary cast, that would be Amy (lead female, supports Sonic, not directly involved in gameplay), Shadow (an extra hand, a more aggressive version Knuckles, but still respectful of Sonic), Omega (Supports Shadow, intel and suchlike), Rouge (supporting female, loose cannon, can support GUN, Shadow or Robotnik depending on what she's gaining from it)

The main three should be playable, even if the majority of their stories don't intertwine. Shadow could have his own little story, which is similar to Sonic's story, but is harder.

So the only playable characters are Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow as an unlockable?.......I can live with that. I mean no matter how much people hate it, Knuckles is, and forever will be a major contender in this franchise, and such people have to acknowledge that when he IS in a game, he will more than likely, team with Sonic & Tails.

I heard on the Sega Forums about something about Amy, adding more gameplay than both Tails, and Knuckles(Admittedly, he is an Amy fanboy)

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Because we can do more than just having characters spend time with the characters they've always been around with. It doesn't do a lot of development the longer they associate with the same characters they've always been with, and can lead to stagnation if overused. That and we can make a lot more interesting situation with them.

I absolutely agree that it's always interesting to see characters interact with characters that they haven't done so with previously, but that doesn't mean that there cant be some "standard" groups of characters than team up and/or hang out on a regular basis. And i belong in the camp that says Knuckles first and foremost belongs with Sonic and Tails, just like how, for instance, Omega belongs with Shadow and Rouge. I know that many people see Knuckles as something of an unnecessary third-wheel in the Sonic-Tails dynamic that gets shoehorned in solely due to his status as a fellow "classic" character, but i see it very differently. I see Knuckles as a guy who, while he might not spent a lot of his spare time just "hanging out" with Sonic and Tails, still has the habit of meeting up with and fight alongside them whenever the world is in danger, which is something they all just sorta take for granted since they have been doing it for so long (Kinda like Piccolo, his very probable inspiration from Dragonball Z).

Speaking of characters complementing each other abilities, i just got and idea; maybe one way to justify Shadow from a gameplay POW would be to first and foremost make him stand out from the other characters by having him to utilize his chaos powers to shoot beams and stuff. Like, typecast him as the go to "projectile attacks" guy, since projectile attacks is one thing that both Sonic, Tails and Knux tend to lack. That would be one way of making Shadow a valid fourth "standard" playable character from a completely non-story POW (since many people feel that the choice of what characters should be playable should depend foremost on gameplay and not story). Although preferably, they should also downplay his speed a bit though so that he doesn't end being able to do everything Sonic can plus other things. That would take away Sonic's own specialness, and that would of course blow big time.

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I absolutely agree that it's always interesting to see characters interact with characters that they haven't done so with previously, but that doesn't mean that there cant be some "standard" groups of characters than team up and/or hang out on a regular basis. And i belong in the camp that says Knuckles first and foremost belongs with Sonic and Tails, just like how, for instance, Omega belongs with Shadow and Rouge. I know that many people see Knuckles as something of an unnecessary third-wheel in the Sonic-Tails dynamic that gets shoehorned in solely due to his status as a fellow "classic" character, but i see it very differently. I see Knuckles as a guy who, while he might not spent a lot of his spare time just "hanging out" with Sonic and Tails, still has the habit of meeting up with and fight alongside them whenever the world is in danger, which is something they all just sorta take for granted since they have been doing it for so long (Kinda like Piccolo, his very probable inspiration from Dragonball Z).

Speaking of characters complementing each other abilities, i just got and idea; maybe one way to justify Shadow from a gameplay POW would be to first and foremost make him stand out from the other characters by having him to utilize his chaos powers to shoot beams and stuff. Like, typecast him as the go to "projectile attacks" guy, since projectile attacks is one thing that both Sonic, Tails and Knux tend to lack. That would be one way of making Shadow a valid fourth "standard" playable character from a completely non-story POW (since many people feel that the choice of what characters should be playable should depend foremost on gameplay and not story). Although preferably, they should also downplay his speed a bit though so that he doesn't end being able to do everything Sonic can plus other things. That would take away Sonic's own specialness, and that would of course blow big time.

Thank You. Having a set group of characters isn't really a bad thing, especially if they compliment each other, and have lots of chemistry with each other. Knuckles may have a job, but that doesn't mean he won't team up with them, if he knows it would benefit him and the what he's protecting. Amy always has a habit of "meeting" up with Sonic and Co. no matter where they go, and honestly, her interactions with Sonic(And by extension Tails and Knuckles, or some of the rest of the cast) could be used for good comic relief.

If that was the case, I'd prefer to have Shadow as a boss fight as well.

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I don't think anyone's saying that having some groups is a bad thing. Personally I'm just questioning what groups are appropriate, and when, and I don't think Knuckles should be an "always" team member.

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I don't think anyone's saying that having some groups is a bad thing. Personally I'm just questioning what groups are appropriate, and when, and I don't think Knuckles should be an "always" team member.

But Knuckles is an "always" member, whether we like it or not. Even when he's off doing his own thing, he inevitably teams with Sonic in the end, and Sonic & Tails are pretty much his only real friends. Groups can be appropriate depending on the situation, like Scar said, we can have Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles playable in one game, with Amy, Rouge, and Omega having secondary roles, while Shadow has his own secret story.

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Thank You. Having a set group of characters isn't really a bad thing, especially if they compliment each other, and have lots of chemistry with each other. Knuckles may have a job, but that doesn't mean he won't team up with them, if he knows it would benefit him and the what he's protecting. Amy always has a habit of "meeting" up with Sonic and Co. no matter where they go, and honestly, her interactions with Sonic(And by extension Tails and Knuckles, or some of the rest of the cast) could be used for good comic relief.

If that was the case, I'd prefer to have Shadow as a boss fight as well.

Off topic, but if you dont mind me asking, is it my imagination or have you lately started to slide just a liiiiitle bit towards the "conservative" side of the Sonic fanbase? I seem to recall that you used to be more in the slightly radical "anything goes" camp when it came to the Sonic series, while now you usually seem to belong more in the "dont fix what ain't broken" camp (where i myself sit firmly and comfortably :D ). Just a personal observation, tell me if im wrong. :P

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Off topic, but if you dont mind me asking, is it my imagination or have you lately started to slide just a liiiiitle bit towards the "conservative" side of the Sonic fanbase? I seem to recall that you used to be more in the slightly radical "anything goes" camp when it came to the Sonic series, while now you usually seem to belong more in the "dont fix what ain't broken" camp (where i myself sit firmly and comfortably :D ). Just a personal observation, tell me if im wrong. :P

I'm kinda both now really. While I don't mind if they just axed Team Sonic all together, I don't see a reason for Sonic to have a little ragtag group friends. Basically I'm telling Sega, "Do what they got to do".

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But Knuckles is an "always" member, whether we like it or not.
Oh well then we might as well just close the topic then since everything's already been decided.

Even when he's off doing his own thing, he inevitably teams with Sonic in the end,
Unless he's not there at all. And the difference between him being with Sonic and Tails the whole time and him having his own goals and only joining up when their paths cross is pretty damn important!
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Oh well then we might as well just close the topic then since everything's already been decided.

Unless he's not there at all. And the difference between him being with Sonic and Tails the whole time and him having his own goals and only joining up when their paths cross is pretty damn important!

You know that's not what I meant.

Not if their goals are the same, which most of the time they are. I mean if Villain A, steals the Master Emerald, Knuckles will go after him to get the Master Emerald back, AND to stop the villain from whatever he's planning to use the M.E. for, while Villain A also messes with Sonic, and prompts him to go after Villain A as well. Sonic & Knuckles meet, with the same understanding and team up to take Villain A down.

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I can accept this idea in ways, but honestly it seems a bit complicated and slightly unsettling, especially since it is afterall GUN. I've never been too keen on GUN (besides being the guards to the city of Station Square), possibly because they are a gritty and dark human-led military that kind of tampers with the otherwise lighthearted feel of the majority of the Sonic series. It could work out, although I'd hope for it not to be something that intertwines with Knuckles all too much.

It's not really complicated so long as the plot is streamlined and doesn't veer off to otherwise irrelevant areas. That and reading an action sequence takes a lot longer for the audience as opposed to cutscenes.

And if you're worried about tone, it isn't impossible to alter that tone they have and make it fit in a more lighthearted tone. Then again, being a little dark and gritty isn't really a bad thing either, unless it goes overboard to areas this series can't handle.

I'd rather have a solid set of main characters and alot of minor characters than have two main characters (a protagonist and an antagonist) with every other character being of equal worth.

And I'd rather have a solid set of main characters that alternate primary roles with that of the minor ones from time to time. I'm not against characters having minor roles, but I am against restricting them to said roles.

The reason I'm sure the 'classic trio' is favored because their designs, personalities and attributes all compliment themselves and flesh out the main character more. Tails is Sonic's naive but loyal sidekick / surrogate little brother, and Knuckles is Sonic's competitive scuffle-buddy that Sonic can consider more of a steadfast friend than one he has to be a mentor for.

Yeah, and so do some of the Modern cast, particularly Shadow and Blaze.

Shadow is Sonic's social rival who "get the job done by ANY means necessary" beliefs can conflict with Sonic's less-than-lethal approach when they cross paths, and Blaze can be Sonic's dimensional counterpart that represents a mirror to the his free lifestyle.

However, you're really turning a blind eye to the fact that people do favor them because they came first and that even when they're poorly handled are given a pass because they were around when the series were good yet criticizing newer characters for the same reason. I do remember getting on to Phos on that very issue when he presented Yahtzee saying that exact thing when regarding Tails being around.

And before you ask "Then why not use other characters to fill those roles as well?", I think it'd be better to use characters the series that have been there the longest and simultaneously can fit the role.

Answer me this, how does being around longer actually affect how well a character is handled? Because the length of time is completely independent from quality. If a character that was once good ends up being handled shitty and other characters that were recently introduced around that very moment the handling are already shitty, I'm pretty sure being good in the past doesn't make a now shitty character any better.

And in addition to that, how is it that only one character can hog a role (or even several roles at once) and yet another character can't have the same role with a different spice to it and with a different set of goals? Because as far as storytelling goes, there's nothing that can prevent a plot from having more than:

  • one hero
  • one rival
  • one Big Bad
  • one love-interest
  • one Dragon
  • one anti-hero
  • one anti-villian
  • one Lancer
  • the list goes on

And what's more, you don't have to make it convoluted, lengthy, and distracting to make it work.

Point and call "stubborn classic purist" all you like, but I believe the Triple Threat is the most appealing trio there is, and there's tons of possibilities open with them. Blame the OVA for doing that to me. :P

Yeah, try adding "unfair and favoritistic" to that list as well. From a person like me who hates Big the cat, I'm actually more than willing to give him a better role than that of my favorite characters like Shadow and Tails when given the chance, as I'm sure you already know.

Now any labels you want to toss at me? Because I'm more than ready to take them. ;)

Can they, or have they only stagnated because Sega made them do it? Bad writing can partially be blamed for that. Besides, if it was considered bad to focus on only so many characters for so long, then the Sonic-Eggbotnik dynamic would've died a long time ago.

Bad writing, predictability, and being over-redundant pretty much results in stagnation. Hence why people were glad of the change from the Monster of the Weak shtick they've been milking since the success of the Adventures. Hell, that's pretty much the reason why the Sonic-Eggbotnik dynamic didn't die out at all, because it was always superseded by something else even more predictable and overmilked.

Calm down with the judgement bro.

Preferring Sonic, Tails and Knuckles as the main protagonists != being a rigid classic purist with double standards.

That's not what I was saying, Azukara. I've made it all too clear and specific for you to try and simplify it down to preferring Team Sonic as the main protagonist to be the same as being a rigid classic purist, otherwise if that's what I thought I would've outright said so and I wouldn't have been afraid to do it.

What you said would be no different as saying preferring Shadow = being a Shadow fanboy (the bad kind).

May be repeating what I just said, but I think using the first characters Sonic Team made would do a good job filling the need for a constant cast of main protagonists. You could still have recurring major characters that aren't part of the main cast (Amy, Shadow, Cream, etc.), and they can have large importance to the given storyline or have lots of interaction. There's no stopping that. I just think those three characters should still be the main good guys. The hero, his little sidekick brother, and his competitive best friend. Of course that's my opinion so feel free to hate disagree all you like. :P

Well my opinion is to make the main good guy consist of whomever the plot can allow it to take interest of. The principle hero Sonic always takes the lead majority of the time, but beyond that the other heroic roles can alternate between any character so long as the plot chooses to focus on it and warrant it. That includes Knuckles, but that also includes Shadow, Silver, Blaze, Espio, Tails, all the way down to characters such as Cream. And the same can hold true for deciding who gets the minor roles for a plot, and even towards who sits out of the plot entirely.

That's the main reason I decided against Shade. I would say otherwise if she actually meant anything towards the canon. :P

Yeah, and as I said to Dio, I know she isn't canon. But I really want to make her canon and alter her so that she is an interesting character to have around.

I absolutely agree that it's always interesting to see characters interact with characters that they haven't done so with previously, but that doesn't mean that there cant be some "standard" groups of characters than team up and/or hang out on a regular basis.

I never said they shouldn't. I'm just saying let's be more dynamic and have characters interact with those they don't hang out with as much and not be dictated by something merely because we've known it for so long.

And i belong in the camp that says Knuckles first and foremost belongs with Sonic and Tails, just like how, for instance, Omega belongs with Shadow and Rouge.

Well I belong in the camp that's more universal, one that says anything goes with who goes with who. I love a comfort zone as much as the next person, but I'm not a person who lets it dictate what belongs with what if things are allowed to be arranged however. And in the case of this series in terms of who interacts with who, there's absolutely no rule for it. So it's all fair game; and that not even bringing in the obvious barriers that are important aspects of the characters, or jumping off the cliff by making new ones either.

Not if their goals are the same, which most of the time they are. I mean if Villain A, steals the Master Emerald, Knuckles will go after him to get the Master Emerald back, AND to stop the villain from whatever he's planning to use the M.E. for, while Villain A also messes with Sonic, and prompts him to go after Villain A as well. Sonic & Knuckles meet, with the same understanding and team up to take Villain A down.

Well I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into this.

What if their goals aren't the same? If Villain A instead of going for the Master Emerald says "nah" and decides to take ownership of something different, say the moon and doesn't so much as bother with the floating island? Now who other than Sonic would get involved in that to stop said villian?

And I'm not talking screw around with any natural disasters involving the moon or anything like that. I mean the guy wants to take over the moon and use it to further his plans of dominating the world should he succeed.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Well ChaosSupremeSonic, i've said it before and i'll say it again: your ideas of how the cast in the series should be handled certainly are unconventional. Nearly every single franchise i know of have a certain set of main characters that the writers makes sure the stories most often revolve around, while also having a group of periphery characters that occasionally gets to share the spotlight or steal it completely. Your "equal opportunity" ideas are quite radical. But as always, each to their own.

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Eh, I'd really enjoy retooling the entire Sonic universe so that it isn't as disorganized as it is. I can say you win this round... I guess.

Whatever, I guess I enjoy being considered the blindsighted classic fanboy here. =3

Well ChaosSupremeSonic, i've said it before and i'll say it again: your ideas of how the cast in the series should be handled certainly are unconventional. Nearly every single franchise i know of have a certain set of main characters that the writers makes sure the stories most often revolve around, while also having a group of periphery characters that occasionally gets to share the spotlight or steal it completely. Your "equal opportunity" ideas are quite radical. But as always, each to their own.

I would've said exactly this, but my mind couldn't process it at the exact moment I wrote my quick response. Every series has their main characters that fit certain descriptions, and then there are minor characters that form into place with the secondary personalities (the brooding loner, the girl with the crush on the hero, the cute and polite girl, the greedy and loose cannon thief, etc.) because their personalities are more specific. The main characters fit certain bills (hero, sidekick, best friend / rival) while being maintainably flexible. Many, many series do this, and I don't see what's wrong with Sonic doing it either.

Edited by Azukara
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Well ChaosSupremeSonic, i've said it before and i'll say it again: your ideas of how the cast in the series should be handled certainly are unconventional.

I know.

That's one reason why I develop them, because I will only do conventional for so long before I want something different. That's why I don't play favorites, and even more so why I want as many fans as possible to enjoy having an opportunity for their interests.

As that old saying goes: You can't please everybody all the time. But I don't care, I want to please many people most of the time, and whenever possible.

Nearly every single franchise i know of have a certain set of main characters that the writers makes sure the stories most often revolve around, while also having a group of periphery characters that occasionally gets to share the spotlight or steal it completely. Your "equal opportunity" ideas are quite radical. But as always, each to their own.

And I know quite a number of franchises that give most their characters an equal chance to shine. It dwarfs in comparison to other franchises we all know about, but even so I like how they balance things as opposed to tipping the scale to favorites.

EDIT:

Eh, I'd really enjoy retooling the entire Sonic universe so that it isn't as disorganized as it is. I can say you win this round... I guess.

Do me a favor: Stop that bullshit. You can leave as it is and such and such like Batson did, or if you believe in other valid ways that I can interest both of us then we can go with that, and etc.

But let me make this especially clear. I DON'T argue to win...at the very most I try my damnedest not to when I can avoid it.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Calm down brah. You should know I'm not being (completely) serious about this. My intentions are obviously to state my opinion about this, and I didn't mean for you to take that so seriously. :huh:

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Calm down brah. You should know I'm not being (completely) serious about this. My intentions are obviously to state my opinion about this, and I didn't mean for you to take that so seriously. :huh:

I'm not pissed or anything, I just felt a massive need to emphasize. The last thing I want to hear in cases like these is "you win", because it isn't that kind of competition, or a competition at all to a further extent. B)

But really, do you think I should be okay with someone telling me "I win?" Because it doesn't seem to sit right with me.

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Yeah, I understand.

I noticed I'd taken this topic out of hand thanks to my delving into Knuckles too much.. And sorry I've responded in such a more cynical way than usual. I'm seeing that I'm coming off as sort of a rigid butthole.. Sorry about that. I've just had a rough past couple of days. :/

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