Jump to content
Awoo.

Power Trio or Five Man Band?


Kuzu

Recommended Posts

You know that's not what I meant.
No I don't.

Not if their goals are the same, which most of the time they are.
Only in the games where Knuckles is shit.

I mean if Villain A, steals the Master Emerald, Knuckles will go after him to get the Master Emerald back, AND to stop the villain from whatever he's planning to use the M.E. for, while Villain A also messes with Sonic, and prompts him to go after Villain A as well. Sonic & Knuckles meet, with the same understanding and team up to take Villain A down.
These are different goals that happen to overlap, and this is what I'd like to see them do more often with Knuckles, rather than him just tagging along with Sonic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with batson on this one. If a minor character can get it's chance in the spotlight, than by all means, but at the same time the main characters should always remain constant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only in the games where Knuckles is shit.

Chronicles. Knuckles wasn't shit in that game, and the first thing Knuckles did after finding him is team up with Sonic.

These are different goals that happen to overlap, and this is what I'd like to see them do more often with Knuckles, rather than him just tagging along with Sonic.

But the fact that they overlap pretty much shows that Sonic & Knuckles are on the same page when it comes to stomping out villains. Your main problem is when Knuckles is just randomly with Sonic, as was the case in Heroes, and 06 which I can agree was shitty.

BUUUUTTT. Let's say before villain A, showed and did his evil thing, that Knuckles was chilling with Sonic & Tails back at his workshop? I mean Knuckles is allowed to leave from time to time, and when Villain A shows up to steal the M.E., Knuckles let's Sonic go off and do his Hero thing, while he goes off to get the M.E. and thus delves into what I previously posted. Knuckles leaving the island(When it isn't plot relevant) from time to time isn't uncommon, its happened a few times in the other continuities(NOT Sonic X, well the anime anyway), one issue of the comics had Knuckles leave quite often when Eggman was causing trouble. But I do agree he shouldn't just randomly be there without explanation.

But yes I'm going to have to agree with baston, that a series needs a set roster of "Main" characters. I mean they're can be other major characters, but the main focus is always on the Protagonist, and his bad of friends whoever they may be.

And in Sonic's case, we kinda already have a set of "Main" characters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a question: What makes a character other than the primary hero and villian a main character? And by adhering to that, which characters are considered the "main" ones by those terms?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a question: What makes a character other than the primary hero and villian a main character? And by adhering to that, which characters are considered the "main" ones by those terms?

The characters that have the closest connection to the Hero(and Villain).

For instance(And someone who keeps bringing this up.)

Tails: The sidekick. Helper and protege to the Hero, and tries his best to be hero just like his mentor as well as being Sonic's oldest, and best friend, and such is trusted by Sonic, above anyone else. He's also Sonic's mechanic, and thus all the technical stuff is left to him.

Knuckles: Friendly Rival/Reluctant Ally(Or more specifically The Lancer if you wanna go by Tvtropes lingo). Something a fighting buddy for Sonic, and someone who Sonic sees who's buttons he can press. They have such conflicting personalities, but are still tight friends, and will work together when the need arises. He's also Sonic's muscle, and thus able to do things Sonic can't, and does most the field work along with Sonic.

Amy: Heroine/Love Interest. She adds more emotional support than anything else, and able to keep the above three together with her ability to talk anyone out of killing someone. Also having her around gives some comic relief to a story.

Now you can add anyone else to that as well.

Shadow: Anti-Hero counterpart/ Primary Rival. Opposes Sonic's way of life and personality, and while they will work together on something, they're different morals on heroism keeps them at odds with each other.

Rouge: Primary Rival/Love-Interest(To Knuckles obviously). The Wild card, who's goals vary depending on her taste, and her sneaky style contrast nicely with Knuckles`.

On the villanous side of things:

Metal Sonic: Primary Elite force. Eggman's right hand robot, and primary enforcer. Made to match Sonic's skills and then some, and developed a personal hatred for the Hedgehog in the process, making him just as persistent as Eggman himself.

I'd go on to list more, but I think I got my point across.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm...neither.

I'm more of a classic fan and all, but the Power Trio doesn't really work because of Knuckles' responsibility and general distance from Sonic and Tails. A Power Trio typically sticks together "to the end" or something like that, and Knuckles isn't like that. He spent most of S3&K as Sonic's enemy and then went on an Adventure solo afterwards. In SA1 and SA2 Knuckles remained mostly alone concentrating on gathering the Master Emerald. And while Knuckles did team up in Chronicles, it was in a very begrudging way. I remember him saying something about how it was Sonic who left and shouldn't be in charge or something. Sega did try to force Knuckles into the partner role in Heroes and Sonic '06, but they stopped due to the criticism.

As for the Five Man Band, aren't Amy and Cream already on their own team with Big? And even if you ignore that, there's the fact that Sonic spends more time running from Amy then working with her. Cream also remains very distant, only around because she's Amy's friend. Otherwise I imagine she would just be home with her mom. and there's the aforementioned problems with Knuckles.

I do approve of Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles being the main protagonists above the others, but them as a Power Trio that always works together? Nah. I see Sonic as the primary lead, with Tails as a frequent partner, and Knuckles as more of a loner who will aid/team up only when it's absolutely necessary.

Other characters can come and go as the plot flows on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The characters that have the closest connection to the Hero(and Villain).

If that's the case, then that's pretty fair...so then by that factor, character who have the least connection to the hero and villain would be considered minor characters.

So, here's the kicker. Why should a character who has one of the closest connections to said hero and villain, like that of a major character, be considered a minor character? Just to get this out of the way, I know no one said that in this topic. But I want to see how people stack that up and come to such a conclusion.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm...neither.

I'm more of a classic fan and all, but the Power Trio doesn't really work because of Knuckles' responsibility and general distance from Sonic and Tails. A Power Trio typically sticks together "to the end" or something like that, and Knuckles isn't like that. He spent most of S3&K as Sonic's enemy and then went on an Adventure solo afterwards. In SA1 and SA2 Knuckles remained mostly alone concentrating on gathering the Master Emerald. And while Knuckles did team up in Chronicles, it was in a very begrudging way. I remember him saying something about how it was Sonic who left and shouldn't be in charge or something. Sega did try to force Knuckles into the partner role in Heroes and Sonic '06, but they stopped due to the criticism.

As for the Five Man Band, aren't Amy and Cream already on their own team with Big? And even if you ignore that, there's the fact that Sonic spends more time running from Amy then working with her. Cream also remains very distant, only around because she's Amy's friend. Otherwise I imagine she would just be home with her mom. and there's the aforementioned problems with Knuckles.

I do approve of Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles being the main protagonists above the others, but them as a Power Trio that always works together? Nah. I see Sonic as the primary lead, with Tails as a frequent partner, and Knuckles as more of a loner who will aid/team up only when it's absolutely necessary.

Other characters can come and go as the plot flows on.

Well Knuckles may keep to himself, but he is still pretty tight with Sonic & Tails, but yeah he should only team with Sonic, when the plot calls for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a question: What makes a character other than the primary hero and villian a main character? And by adhering to that, which characters are considered the "main" ones by those terms?

The ones that have the most prominence in the stories. And by my standards, Tails and Amy are the most pronounced main characters, followed by Knuckles and Shadow, and so on.

But it's not to say Tails and Amy are the only main characters aside from Sonic and Eggman, but they are the least reliant on outside forces to have a presence in the plot while still having much of a use (or in Amy's case, potential to be useful).

Really, it isn't as black and white as "these are main characters and these aren't". I guess it depends on whether or not you take into account those 'outside forces' to judge a character's prominence in a plot. While Knuckles is by and large one of the most prominent characters under unrestricted circumstances, his main setback keeping him from being Sonic's right hand croonie is the M.E and in general his very nature. So the question is, would his obligations, and by extension, his fewer opportunities to be present in a story, make Knuckles any less of a main character?

Connection to character makes more sense in this case and really helps make sense of my point. Thnx Shadic.

Why should a character who has one of the closest connections to said hero and villain, be considered a minor character?

I think my point above would answer this question better; prominence in plot. The less connected a character is to the main protagonist, the less prominent they'd be in a plot.

Edited by Black Spy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If that's the case, then that's pretty fair...so then by that factor, character who have the least connection to the hero and villain would be considered minor characters.

So, here's the kicker. Why should a character who has one of the closest connections to said hero and villain, like that of a major character, be considered a minor character? Just to get this out of the way, I know no one said that in this topic. But I want to see how people stack that up and come to such a conclusion.

They shouldn't be minor characters then, if they have such a connection to the Hero or Villain.

I mean imagine if Robin was reduced to a minor character in the Batman comics, despite being his adopted son?

The ones that have the most prominence in the stories. And by my standards, Tails and Amy are the most pronounced main characters, followed by Knuckles and Shadow, and so on.

But it's not to say Tails and Amy are the only main characters aside from Sonic and Eggman, but they are the least reliant on outside forces to have a presence in the plot while still having much of a use (or in Amy's case, potential to be useful).

Really, it isn't as black and white as "these are main characters and these aren't". I guess it depends on whether or not you take into account those 'outside forces' to judge a character's prominence in a plot. While Knuckles is by and large one of the most prominent characters under unrestricted circumstances, his main setback keeping him from being Sonic's right hand croonie is the M.E and in general his very nature. So the question is, would his obligations, and by extension, his fewer opportunities to be present in a story, make Knuckles any less of a main character?

I guess if the M.E. was just dropped all together, then yeah it would make Knuckles less of a major character, considering he guards a major object in his world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the question is, would his obligations, and by extension, his fewer opportunities to be present in a story, make Knuckles any less of a main character?

That's a tricky question to answer. (and that says a lot coming from me)

Since a main character is considered such by being one of the most prominent from what you gave me, you absolutely can't take away Knuckles' status as a main character at all. However, because of him currently having less opportunities to be present, it would wind up taking a hit to that status the more he is left out compared to other more opportunistic characters.

So, I guess the answer would be both yes and no. No in that you can still make use of opportunities to use him more, and yes in that you are fairly restricted in how you use the character without gaining much criticism from it.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a tricky question to answer. (and that says a lot coming from me)

Since a main character is considered such by being one of the most prominent from what you gave me, you absolutely can't take away Knuckles' status as a main character at all. However, because of him currently having less opportunities to be present, it would wind up taking a hit to that status the more he is left out compared to other more opportunistic characters.

So, I guess the answer would be both yes and no. Yes in that you can still make use of opportunities to use him more, and no in that you are fairly restricted in how you use the character without gaining much criticism from it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chronicles. Knuckles wasn't shit in that game, and the first thing Knuckles did after finding him is team up with Sonic.
I'd say Chronicles was shit all around, but that aside. The point isn't that Sonic and Knuckles work together (as you can replace Knuckles with literally anyone and it's still true), but why they have come to work together. In Chronicles' case (if I'm remembering the story right), he gets roped into something-or-other which gets him captured, then there's the stuff about Shade's group going after the Master Emerald, and the reveal that these are echidnas, which gives him very personal reasons to get involved (more than pretty much anyone else on the team, really). It's not just "hurf fightan bad guys" or "durf hangin' out with my bestest buddy Sonic", but because Sonic's going after them anyway it makes sense to work together.

But the fact that they overlap pretty much shows that Sonic & Knuckles are on the same page when it comes to stomping out villains.
Only in so much as everyone else is, too.

Let's say before villain A, showed and did his evil thing, that Knuckles was chilling with Sonic & Tails back at his workshop? I mean Knuckles is allowed to leave from time to time, and when Villain A shows up to steal the M.E., Knuckles let's Sonic go off and do his Hero thing, while he goes off to get the M.E. and thus delves into what I previously posted.
I'm...not sure I see the reason for having Knuckles be off the island in the first place. I'm not saying he shouldn't be, I just don't understand how it's relevant to this discussion.

But yes I'm going to have to agree with baston, that a series needs a set roster of "Main" characters.
Okay, Sonic, Tails, and Amy, with characters like Knuckles and Shadow sitting one tier below them. Main characters, problem solved, yes?

Though I don't buy this story that we need main characters. A main character, yes, of course, but the number of main characters can range from one to however many the writers can juggle.

And in Sonic's case, we kinda already have a set of "Main" characters.
But is this set for the best? I'm not convinced it is.

Here's a question: What makes a character other than the primary hero and villian a main character?
Plot focus. The ones who contribute most to the hero or villain's story, or have the most focus on their own personal stories.

And by adhering to that, which characters are considered the "main" ones by those terms?
Tails, as the hero's sidekick. Amy, as his pseudo-girlfriend. Shadow, due to his long plot arc. I'd say Knuckles used to be until around Heroes, given the focus on his emerald-repairing missions in the Adventures and SA in particular focusing on his ancestors. But once they started sticking him in just "because he's Knuckles", he becomes just an ally, about on the same level as Rouge.

So the question is, would his obligations, and by extension, his fewer opportunities to be present in a story, make Knuckles any less of a main character?
You crossed this out, but I'm going to answer it anyway; I say...yes. Appearing less would make him less of a main character. But I believe it would make him a better character, since his time as a very active main character was drawing from a pretty shallow well (there's only so many times you can have him searching for emerald shards) and they've pretty much used it up.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, Sonic, Tails, and Amy, with characters like Knuckles and Shadow sitting one tier below them. Main characters, problem solved, yes?

If we want to be general about it, then that's fine with me.

However, I favor this belief of yours a lot more:

Though I don't buy this story that we need main characters. A main character, yes, of course, but the number of main characters can range from one to however many the writers can juggle.

And really, that's what I truly believe it boils down to, similar to (or pretty much the same as) my "equal opportunity" belief for the characters as there really isn't anything that dictates who other than the primary Protagonist and Antagonist becomes a main character nor does it dictate how long they're allowed to be in said status. The only hinderance that can arise as far as I can see would be having the writers handle more than they can chew on the amount of main characters, but it takes a very incompetent writer for that to be such.

Plot focus. The ones who contribute most to the hero or villain's story, or have the most focus on their own personal stories.

So we have plot focus, prominence in the series, and a connection to the hero and villian. Given how these overlap, that makes it harder to make a character a major one simply out of interest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we want to be general about it, then that's fine with me.

However, I favor this belief of yours a lot more:

And really, that's what I truly believe it boils down to, similar to (or pretty much the same as) my "equal opportunity" belief for the characters as there really isn't anything that dictates who other than the primary Protagonist and Antagonist becomes a main character nor does it dictate how long they're allowed to be in said status. The only hinderance that can arise as far as I can see would be having the writers handle more than they can chew on the amount of main characters, but it takes a very incompetent writer for that to be such.

So we have plot focus, prominence in the series, and a connection to the hero and villian. Given how these overlap, that makes it harder to make a character a major one simply out of interest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really see the Colors writers staying long term. It seemed to me that it was just a one time thing. But who knows.

I'd like whoever wrote Black Knight to write the stories.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really disagree with the idea that Amy should be more of a main character than Knuckles. From a gameplay point of view, she is nearly useless. There is nothing she can do with her hammer than Knuckles cant do with his fists, and Knuckles also has abilities than Amy dont have.

No, i still say we keep the power trio. Once again, dont fix what ain't broken.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really disagree with the idea that Amy should be more of a main character than Knuckles. From a gameplay point of view, she is nearly useless. There is nothing she can do with her hammer than Knuckles cant do with his fists, and Knuckles also has abilities than Amy dont have.

I thought we were really just talking from a plot perspective on the characters? Gameplay is a whole different dimension by comparison.

No, i still say we keep the power trio. Once again, dont fix what ain't broken.

Don't fix what ain't broken? Dude, I take it you're just going to gloss over the problems some of us have already pointed out?

Because if they weren't broken in the sense of not being handled well, nor Diogenes or I or anyone for that matter would bother arguing about it since there wouldn't be anything about it that deserves criticism. But since that isn't the case, clearly something about it needs to be fixed.

Considering we've got new writers, I don't think they should bite off more than they can chew.

But they're well known and great writers who know how to handle much more than Sonic Team could in the past. I mean it's the guys who did the friggin' writing for Reboot, for crying out loud. I don't see why they can't handle more than usual considering they'd be a lot more careful with the material and not throw in a character without giving them any significance.

So it's not like there's that much of a risk involved unless they give the handling to a new writer, or we'd have to do a BG check to see if they're capable of suck a risk.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, I enjoyed to read ChaosSupremeSonic's and Glenn's posts. They had the most complete answers in this T.

Just wanted to say that I'm glad you enjoyed reading my post. Thank you kindly. :)

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really disagree with the idea that Amy should be more of a main character than Knuckles. From a gameplay point of view, she is nearly useless. There is nothing she can do with her hammer than Knuckles cant do with his fists, and Knuckles also has abilities than Amy dont have.
First off, gameplay isn't the only issue here. Amy could still be a main character in the story without being a playable character, if it came down to that. As far as what she could offer in gameplay, even if Knuckles could theoretically do everything Amy could (which I don't agree with), they could still build unique gameplay styles/movesets for both of them just by not picking overlapping abilities. Say Amy could hit certain switches with her hammer; while Knuckles could, logically, pound it with his fists...just don't give him that ability.

No, i still say we keep the power trio. Once again, dont fix what ain't broken.
But that's the thing, I think it is broken. Putting this Sonic-Tails-Knuckles team on a pedestal has helped to ruin Knuckles as a character, since they've been more concerned with forcing him into everything than writing him well. If they dial it back a bit, put more thought into when and how he shows up, maybe he can be more than just the meathead of Team Sonic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again with the Master Emerald?

This is gonna sound strange coming from me because I love a good Sonic story, but screw the story.

If Knuckles needs to appear he's gonna appear, Emerald or not.

The plot device that allowed the Master Emerald to be breakable so Knuckles has to collect its shards is terrible.

Especially in SA2 where he broke it himself! It's just a ridiculous set up.

It's not much of a stretch for me when they go from that to just leaving Knuckles' reason out.

It's like a fighting game story mode where the characters will fight for any damn reason.

They don't really need a reason at all!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off, gameplay isn't the only issue here. Amy could still be a main character in the story without being a playable character, if it came down to that. As far as what she could offer in gameplay, even if Knuckles could theoretically do everything Amy could (which I don't agree with), they could still build unique gameplay styles/movesets for both of them just by not picking overlapping abilities. Say Amy could hit certain switches with her hammer; while Knuckles could, logically, pound it with his fists...just don't give him that ability.

But that's the thing, I think it is broken. Putting this Sonic-Tails-Knuckles team on a pedestal has helped to ruin Knuckles as a character, since they've been more concerned with forcing him into everything than writing him well. If they dial it back a bit, put more thought into when and how he shows up, maybe he can be more than just the meathead of Team Sonic.

Knuckles can't be ruined, just by simply appearing with Sonic & Tails, it depends on like you said, how he appears. If Knuckles shows up in every game after Colors, but his duty and commitment is still in tact to a T, where would be the problem? He still be team player, and people won't whine that he's neglecting the M.E.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Knuckles needs to appear he's gonna appear, Emerald or not.

Well if we're going to play that route, if characters like Shadow, Blaze, and Silver need to appear then they're going to appear, dimensions or time travel be damned and even if you don't like the character, because none of that matters and they don't need a reason at all. Fair?
  • Thumbs Up 2
  • Bad Quality Post 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Knuckles shows up in every game after Colors, but his duty and commitment is still in tact to a T, where would be the problem?

If you're gonna write Knuckles into every story, your either going to further ruin his character by shoehorning the M.E in constantly, further dragging out an already overdone excuse for a plot device into eternal stagnation, or completely neglect it and ruin what defined Knuckles as a character.

Knuckles's main shtick is that he is the guardian of the Master Emerald, so having him tag along with Sonic on every adventure he goes on utterly ignores that crucial aspect of his character. Alternatively, forcing the M.E in as a shallow plot device for the sake of shoehorning Knux into the plot is just terrible writing, plain and simple, and only serves to further drag Knuckles down even more than he already has.

Either way, you can't write Knuckles into every major plot without further damaging Knuckles as a credible character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're gonna write Knuckles into every story, your either going to further ruin his character by shoehorning the M.E in constantly, further dragging out an already overdone excuse for a plot device into eternal stagnation, or completely neglect it and ruin what defined Knuckles as a character.

Knuckles's main shtick is that he is the guardian of the Master Emerald, so having him tag along with Sonic on every adventure he goes on utterly ignores that crucial aspect of his character. Alternatively, forcing the M.E in as a shallow plot device for the sake of shoehorning Knux into the plot is just terrible writing, plain and simple, and only serves to further drag Knuckles down even more than he already has.

Either way, you can't write Knuckles into every major plot without further damaging Knuckles as a credible character.

....So we should just reduce Knuckles to a minor character then.

Because either A. He appears and people bitch about him not guarding the M.E. or B. He doesn't appear and people complain about him NOT appearing enough.

And unless they plan on giving the Master Emerald a bigger role in the series(Which I highly doubt) beyond it just being stolen, Knuckles is nothing more than a minor character, and should remain as such.

Edited by Shadic93
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.