Power Trio or Five Man Band?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Not trying to be an asshole, but you guys are doing a real good job of ignoring my Take A Third Option that actually solves that very problem concerning Knuckles and his Master Emerald and makes him a free bird of a character along with many other benefits.

I mean, no one likes that idea or what?

[Diogenes]

Knuckles can't be ruined, just by simply appearing with Sonic & Tails, it depends on like you said, how he appears. If Knuckles shows up in every game after Colors, but his duty and commitment is still in tact to a T, where would be the problem?

Because the two tend to work against each other. Guarding the emerald and the island is a very personal duty, one that simply cannot overlap with the rest of the story consistently. Sometimes they just need to give it a break and let the idea recharge a bit.

And even if they managed to keep it up for a while, it'd eventually fall apart...much like it did before, when the "break the Master Emerald" idea got stale and they decided to stick him into Heroes just because.

edit:

....So we should just reduce Knuckles to a minor character then.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "minor", but less major than Tails, Amy, and maybe Shadow.

Not trying to be an asshole, but you guys are doing a real good job of ignoring my Take A Third Option that actually solves that very problem concerning Knuckles and his Master Emerald and makes him a free bird of a character along with many other benefits.

I mean, no one likes that idea or what?

I've got a few problems with it. First, that having his own personal duty is something that defines him as a character, and while removing it lets him appear more often, it makes him shallower and less interesting. And I feel this is still true (though obviously to a lesser extent) if he's only getting part-time help. Second, I'm not convinced there's anyone suitable for the co-guardian position; Shade doesn't exist, the Chaotix have been reinvented to not have anything to do with him, and ceding power to the impersonal and morally gray organization that is GUN seems both out of character and a terrible idea (so much that if not for the former reason, it'd probably make for a pretty damn interesting story about having to take the island and emerald back from GUN). Edited February 15, 2011 by Diogenes

[Kuzu]

Not trying to be an asshole, but you guys are doing a real good job of ignoring my Take A Third Option that actually solves that very problem concerning Knuckles and his Master Emerald and makes him a free bird of a character along with many other benefits.

I mean, no one likes that idea or what?

You mean the whole, "get the Chaotix to guard it", thing? I can see it happening, but you think it could work for more than one game?

[Badnik Zero]

Well if we're going to play that route, if characters like Shadow, Blaze, and Silver need to appear then they're going to appear, dimensions or time travel be damned and even if you don't like the character, because none of that matters and they don't need a reason at all. Fair?

I'm saying this is just what Sonic Team does.

Sure if they wanted Silver and Blaze to appear they'd stick 'em in there and we'd have another time travel story. Those two aren't as recognizable as Knuckles or Shadow, but yeah you're right. How about the Werehog. Can anyone tell me that there was a reason for the Werehog or that his being there even made sense? It's only gonna make sense up to a point.

Knuckles is like that. The moon is like that. If the Emerald is unimportant to the story, we're asked to forget it's there. I find it silly because a single line of dialogue, "Oh I left it with Vector this morning," would solve the problem. So just pretend. Knuckles isn't ruined if we don't have that validation because Knuckles as a character is not just the Guardian.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Dabnikz

[Diogenes]

How about the Werehog. Can anyone tell me that there was a reason for the Werehog or that his being there even made sense?

Yes. The reason is for fun, though most would say that they failed to achieve it. And yes, the werehog makes sense in the story; they connect positive/negative energy to positive/negative emotions and to day and night. That he transforms into a stretchy "werehog", specifically, is just something you have to accept as how things work.

Knuckles isn't ruined if we don't have that validation because Knuckles as a character is not just the Guardian.

He's not just the guardian, yes, but it's not something that should just be ignored, or shoved into the background when it becomes inconvenient.

[Kuzu]

He's not just the guardian, yes, but it's not something that should just be ignored, or shoved into the background when it becomes inconvenient.

If we talked about every single important aspect in this series, we would be having discussions about the moon, or how Shadow misinterpreted Maria's wish, or how does Eggman get the money and parts to make all of his machines.

And honestly do you care that much about the last three subjects to make an essay trying to justify it?

[Emerald Chaos]

I'd have to say when it comes to this argument, I'm probably on the side of keeping Knuckles out of conflicts when they can and, preferably outside of Sonic's circle of friends as much as possible.

I remember the scene in Sonic Adventure where Sonic had just taken out Chaos 6 and was moving on to attack Eggman, Knuckles basically arrived on the scene and stayed out of it as Sonic skydived off the Egg Carrier to attack Eggman.

It would strike me as out of character if Knuckles jumped in alongside Sonic to attack Eggman, but the vibe which I get from Knuckles as of late is that he would do just that.

Even if they were to shoehorn Knuckles in as part of a team, I suppose something as small as having him grumble about being forced to go out of his way would be enough to keep his character intact.

[Diogenes]

If we talked about every single important aspect in this series, we would be having discussions about the moon, or how Shadow misinterpreted Maria's wish, or how does Eggman get the money and parts to make all of his machines.

You mean we haven't?

Honestly I don't have a goddamn clue what you're trying to say here.

[Kuzu]

You mean we haven't?

Honestly I don't have a goddamn clue what you're trying to say here.

I'm saying those are things that no one cares about. Do you honestly care WHERE Eggman gets all of his machinery? Or how can he survive being plunged into a Black Hole?

The majority of the public, do not care about the Master Emerald, or Knuckles` connection to it. And if Sonic Team can't figure out what to do with it, and Knuckles, then either decrease Knuckles` prominence to say Rouge's levels, or figure something out, because at this point I could care less if that rock appeared at all, its a chain keeping Knuckles from doing anything remotely important.

[SykoTech]

even if Knuckles could theoretically do everything Amy could (which I don't agree with), they could still build unique gameplay styles/movesets for both of them just by not picking overlapping abilities. Say Amy could hit certain switches with her hammer; while Knuckles could, logically, pound it with his fists...just don't give him that ability.

Not sure if I like the sound of that. Holding back one character's abilities just to make another more unique? No thanks.

And I'd agree with batson about Knuckles being more of a main character than Amy. He may not have as much freedom to show up as often, but his roles in S3&K, SA1, and SA2 have been far more significant to shaping the plot then anything Amy has done. Chronicles too, but that one has canon issues. Not to mention Knuckles is much more iconic and popular in general.

As for the idea of Knuckles leaving others to handle the duty that he's been handling for his entire life...no thanks. I'd say the only way to liberate Knuckles from his job is if he gets a major shakeup. Like his clan gets restored or Angel Island blows up entirely. Otherwise, it wouldn't make much sense for him to leave his life long burden.

[Diogenes]

I'm saying those are things that no one cares about.

I'm pretty sure you could find topics about all 3 of those things on this board.

Do you honestly care WHERE Eggman gets all of his machinery? Or how can he survive being plunged into a Black Hole?

We do have an explanation, of sorts; he is a cartoon villain, and therefore has infinite resources and can escape from any situation, as required by the plot.

The majority of the public, do not care about the Master Emerald, or Knuckles` connection to it.

And?

because at this point I could care less if that rock appeared at all, its a chain keeping Knuckles from doing anything remotely important.

How is it what's keeping Knuckles from doing anything important when they've ignored it for the last decade?

Not sure if I like the sound of that. Holding back one character's abilities just to make another more unique? No thanks.

It's more like not stealing moves just to fuck over another character. Knuckles has a wide range of abilities available; gliding, climbing, digging, super strength, and the potential for weird chaos energy shit if they ever want to go down that road. Surely they can put together a moveset that fits his abilities without completely overlapping Amy's usefulness, yes?

And I'd hardly call not having Super Button Pressing Powers "holding back" Knuckles' abilities.

And I'd agree with batson about Knuckles being more of a main character than Amy. He may not have as much freedom to show up as often, but his roles in S3&K, SA1, and SA2 have been far more significant to shaping the plot then anything Amy has done.

I'm looking more towards a sustainable future than what's been done in the past. Yes, Knuckles was more important...but they overused him, burnt him out, and he's been basically useless since. Giving Knuckles a break and moving Amy up a bit is something that's less likely to collapse a few years down the road.

Not to mention Knuckles is much more iconic and popular in general.

If that was the defining factor the series would've been renamed "Shadow the Hedgehog".

[batson]

If that was the defining factor the series would've been renamed "Shadow the Hedgehog".

...Which it was, for one game at least.

[SykoTech]

It's more like not stealing moves just to fuck over another character. Knuckles has a wide range of abilities available; gliding, climbing, digging, super strength, and the potential for weird chaos energy shit if they ever want to go down that road. Surely they can put together a moveset that fits his abilities without completely overlapping Amy's usefulness, yes?

And I'd hardly call not having Super Button Pressing Powers "holding back" Knuckles' abilities.

It doesn't matter how many other things Knuckles is capable, holding him back from something he should able to do naturally just for the sake of making Amy feel important just doesn't sit right. Sonic has a ton of abilities to work with too, but that doesn't mean that they should take away his ability to Wall Jump just to make Espio have a special move.

Now if Amy had a move that Knuckles realistically wouldn't be able to achieve, I would be fine with it...not that I can think of anything.

I'm looking more towards a sustainable future than what's been done in the past. Yes, Knuckles was more important...but they overused him, burnt him out, and he's been basically useless since. Giving Knuckles a break and moving Amy up a bit is something that's less likely to collapse a few years down the road.

While I certainly agree that they overused Knuckles and abused his character, I don't think that made him useless at all. They just started putting him in game just "cuz he's Knuckles" and without considering his job, but it's not like they completely drained him of every plot imaginable. There's still a good amount of potential behind the Master Emerald and Angel Island.

Why did the other echidnas go extinct? (Knuckles surely had to have some parents)

What's up with the mural of Sonic and Eggman in Hidden Palace?

Who created the Master Emerald and Chaos Emeralds? (Chronicles says the gods, but it was never explored)

Not to mention there's the Nocturnus plot waiting to be continued...

The point is that there are still plenty of possible storylines available for Knuckles and the Master Emerald to get involved naturally, and they could do so without pulling the whole "stole my Emerald" card if they used some imagination. It's not like he's Shadow, where his backstory has been completely wrapped up. I don't really see why he needs a break and get replaced by Amy (especially since he's already been on hiatus). Sonic Team just needs to start using him better.

If that was the defining factor the series would've been renamed "Shadow the Hedgehog".

Not really. Shadow's pretty much the posterboy of everything that's wrong with the Sonic franchise to the gaming community. And even within the fanbase, he's a very controversal subject.

I was talking about universally accepted and acknowledged characters. Not what the fanbase faps over. Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are the core heroes of the franchise to the masses/critics. And I don't see the point in changing that unless they're trying to reboot the series. Handling it better yes, but not trying to replace a vital mainstay with a less significant one.

[Kuzu]

It doesn't matter how many other things Knuckles is capable, holding him back from something he should able to do naturally just for the sake of making Amy feel important just doesn't sit right. Sonic has a ton of abilities to work with too, but that doesn't mean that they should take away his ability to Wall Jump just to make Espio have a special move.

Now if Amy had a move that Knuckles realistically wouldn't be able to achieve, I would be fine with it...not that I can think of anything.

While I certainly agree that they overused Knuckles and abused his character, I don't think that made him useless at all. They just started putting him in game just "cuz he's Knuckles" and without considering his job, but it's not like they completely drained him of every plot imaginable. There's still a good amount of potential behind the Master Emerald and Angel Island.

Why did the other echidnas go extinct? (Knuckles surely had to have some parents)

What's up with the mural of Sonic and Eggman in Hidden Palace?

Who created the Master Emerald and Chaos Emeralds? (Chronicles says the gods, but it was never explored)

Not to mention there's the Nocturnus plot waiting to be continued...

The point is that there are still plenty of possible storylines available for Knuckles and the Master Emerald to get involved naturally, and they could do so without pulling the whole "stole my Emerald" card if they used some imagination. It's not like he's Shadow, where his backstory has been completely wrapped up. I don't really see why he needs a break and get replaced by Amy (especially since he's already been on hiatus). Sonic Team just needs to start using him better.

Not really. Shadow's pretty much the posterboy of everything that's wrong with the Sonic franchise to the gaming community. And even within the fanbase, he's a very controversal subject.

I was talking about universally accepted and acknowledged characters. Not what the fanbase faps over. Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are the core heroes of the franchise to the masses/critics. And I don't see the point in changing that unless they're trying to reboot the series. Handling it better yes, but not trying to replace a vital mainstay with a less significant one.

But Amy has had just as much plot importance as Knuckles since the games went 3D, so her being in Knuckles` place while he's off doing his job, wouldn't sound too farfetched, and frankly it would be a much better trade up than having to find some contrived reason why Knuckles is with Sonic, or why he isn't doing his job.

@Diogenes: I was referring how when Knuckles is brought up, in any topic, the Master Emerald must ALWAYS be considered when implementing him, its like his entire charcter revolves around it, which isn't the case.

This topic has kinda de-railed into yet anohter "Knuckles and Master Emerald" discussion, how about we change the subject.

um......Cream or Shadow? Or Rouge for that matter as well.

[Rusty Spy]

Not really. Shadow's pretty much the posterboy of everything that's wrong with the Sonic franchise to the gaming community. And even within the fanbase, he's a very controversal subject.

Ya really. Shadow was extremely popular from his debut onwards, which is why he was brought back to life and given his own game in the course of 5 years.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I've got a few problems with it. First, that having his own personal duty is something that defines him as a character, and while removing it lets him appear more often, it makes him shallower and less interesting. And I feel this is still true (though obviously to a lesser extent) if he's only getting part-time help. Second, I'm not convinced there's anyone suitable for the co-guardian position; Shade doesn't exist, the Chaotix have been reinvented to not have anything to do with him, and ceding power to the impersonal and morally gray organization that is GUN seems both out of character and a terrible idea (so much that if not for the former reason, it'd probably make for a pretty damn interesting story about having to take the island and emerald back from GUN).

So what would you suggest towards keeping Knuckles fresh and more useful over the course of the series without drying him up from overuse and a lack of anything new? We know of the obvious choices of using him sparringly or keeping him out, but how can we expand beyond that so he isn't so limited?

And yeah, I agree, something about having to take the island and emerald back from GUN would make an interesting story.

You mean the whole, "get the Chaotix to guard it", thing? I can see it happening, but you think it could work for more than one game?

I never said anything about using Chaotix...where did you read that from?

If we talked about every single important aspect in this series, we would be having discussions about the moon, or how Shadow misinterpreted Maria's wish, or how does Eggman get the money and parts to make all of his machines.

And honestly do you care that much about the last three subjects to make an essay trying to justify it?

I do, and would...if said things weren't already justified.

Aside from how Eggman get's the money and parts for his machines (which needs information itself), both Shadow's misinterpretation of Maria's wish and the Moon are still things people discuss to this very day an in that order. And even then, Shadow's misinterpretation was already discussed to the extent that we know why he did, how dedicated he was towards it, and who really made him do it. There's not much to discuss about it, as unlike the Master Emerald ordeal, it's already been taken care of.

As for the Moon, that's a not anything similar to something more deeply tied to a character like the Master Emerald. If it was, you can bet it would be even more of a discussion as opposed to popping up every now and then.

The majority of the public, do not care about the Master Emerald, or Knuckles` connection to it.

And here's the hypocritical thing about that: Those people don't care about the Master Emerald and Knuckles connection to it and make every excuse just to have Knuckles in a plot just for the hell of it, yet they'll jump up on the offense as to why Shadow the Hedgehog is around and come up with reasons out the ass as to why he shouldn't be involved. Given how that happened when someone brought up the idea of Shadow being in Colors, you know there's nothing anyone else can say to try and deny that people do think like that.

And despite being around in the series long enough to qualify as a main character (even tho that's completely irrelevant as far as I can see it), or how prominent he is alongside Rad Red, or how popular he is and such, people still refuse to acknowledge him as a major character to the same extent. All while using the very same things that make Knuckles such a major character by their logic against him to justify why he shouldn't be around.

So tell me, why should we adhere to such backwards logic regarding Knuckles being around while using the same reasoning to deny other characters who deserve it just as much as opposed to having it to where each character can use their significance justified by the plot to pick which character gets involved the most, the least, or completely sits out during that time? Because taking all that I mentioned above ends up boiling character importance down to being just a matter of personal preference; in other words, a character is important merely because someone likes them as opposed to where they can have a justifiable impact within the plot while a character who could make a justified impact deserves less because you don't like them. And it's because of that very reason among various others that I argue against using Knuckles at the expense of neglecting the Master Emerald, and even more so why I don't play favorites regarding which characters are used and where.

And before you say it, I know you never said any of that. But this is something I'm bringing to your attention as to why there are people - well, me specifically - who are against having Knuckles or any character around just to get them involved.

Edited February 16, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Badnik Zero]

I think we're missing the point in that the series is about Sonic, not Knuckles, not Shadow or anyone else.

Sonic the Hedgehog.

Any other characters that get added in are side characters with their time in the spotlight. Tails gets a pass because he's the sidekick. I think Shadic's question is more like, if anyone were to be added to the main cast, who would it be? Knuckles, Amy, and Shadow seem likely candidates.

Knuckles is out because he's a Guardian.

Amy is out because she doesn't usually participate in the Adventure.

Shadow is out because he doesn't work with the heroes.

A Sonic Fellowship of the Ring (pardon, I'm reading the trilogy now) so to speak.

And honestly, Knuckles because of his history of cooperation gets first billing on this list. Shadow and Amy really do feel a tier under him. Shadow's story was only great in one game, when the heroes were a part of what was going on in SA2. Contrast that to Heroes where he was to the side and his own game which was about him and you see what I mean. Even '06 had him to the side. So here's my crack theory I came up with just now, if you want Shadow in you gotta put his plot up front. Otherwise you take a detour into weird shit because Sega decides the character can take on a new identity. Not that the character needs to take the lead, just that the plot revolves around him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think we're missing the point in that the series is about Sonic, not Knuckles, not Shadow or anyone else.

Sonic the Hedgehog.

No dammit...WE KNOW THAT! We've known it for 20 years!

That's why we're not even bother to talk about him now, because there's nothing about him that concerns us in this discussion as opposed to Shadow or Knuckles or anyone else. Sonic has universal clearance to appear wherever he wants because he's the primary character that this series absolutely requires with very few exceptions.

Unfortunately, people make these rules to determine why a not-so-primary character they like should be given similar clearance and then turn around using the same rules to deny a character they don't like because they're hogging the spotlight of the character they want to appear. So what about the folks who want the character you don't like to appear and when his qualifications are in line and similar of that with the ones you like?

And honestly, Knuckles because of his history of cooperation gets first billing on this list. Shadow and Amy really do feel a tier under him.

Because of cooperation alone and not something else significant such as whether or not the events in a plot actually concern him? Heck there's even more reasons than that.

Shadow's story was only great in one game, when the heroes were a part of what was going on in SA2. Contrast that to Heroes where he was to the side and his own game which was about him and you see what I mean.

Now is Knuckles immune to being to the side in Heroes?

Even '06 had him to the side.

No. Sonic '06 had him as one of the leads and a part of what was going on in the plot, similar to how he was significant in SA2. If anyone was put to the side, it was definitely those who's names weren't Sonic, Shadow, Eggman, Mephiles, or Silver.

So here's my crack theory I came up with just now, if you want Shadow in you gotta put his plot up front. Otherwise you take a detour into weird shit because Sega decides the character can take on a new identity. Not that the character needs to take the lead, just that the plot revolves around him.

If only his plot was taken care of and done with after his own game. So how is it that Shadow can't be important through cooperation as you've said for Knuckles. The only thing Knuckles has by what you've mentioned above is just a longer history of cooperation, that's it. That doesn't stop any other character from building theirs up to equal or even surpass that of his, and as far as this goes, Shadow is in as good a position to deserve as much use as people want Knuckles.

Edited February 16, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Badnik Zero]

No dammit...WE KNOW THAT! We've known it for 20 years!

But people act like the game should be different parts Sonic and others, this party game roulette, and that's where the series gets its schizophrenia from. Of course the Adventure games started that. I'm saying the gameplay and story should involve Sonic first of all, and these other guys second.

Now is Knuckles immune to being to the side in Heroes?

Knuckles doesn't need to be immune because they put him in the Sonic story. Shadow is off to the side, with his android subplot. His story is weaker because it doesn't involve other characters. This is why Shadow's harder to work in than Knuckles. It's partially what I mean by cooperation.

No. Sonic '06 had him as one of the leads and a part of what was going on in the plot, similar to how he was significant in SA2. If anyone was put to the side, it was definitely those who's names weren't Sonic, Shadow, Eggman, Mephiles, or Silver.

You're not getting me. He still had too much going on so that Sonic's story was almost separate. Mephiles was almost his personal villain for the game. Shadow should be worked into a larger plot, not just his own. SA2 was pretty much about Shadow. He would have to be the main focus like Knuckles was with Chaos.

That doesn't stop any other character from building theirs up to equal or even surpass that of his, and as far as this goes, Shadow is in as good a position to deserve as much use as people want Knuckles.

Well I'm looking for ways to work in other characters. Knuckles' history is overdeveloped because there were a lot of questions about his origin. Shadow got that treatment too but his games weren't fondly remembered. They need an SA1 story. Knuckles' record is clean as far as that's concerned and that's why people like him more.

But that doesn't mean that Shadow doesn't need reworking. Amy too to get the reception Knuckles gets.

[Diogenes]

@Diogenes: I was referring how when Knuckles is brought up, in any topic, the Master Emerald must ALWAYS be considered when implementing him, its like his entire charcter revolves around it, which isn't the case.

It's not that people think his character revolves around the emerald, but that it's a big part of the character that's been almost completely ignored past SA2. It's the obvious go-to example of how Knuckles' character has been dragged through the mud, and it will keep getting brought up until Sega fixes it.

So what would you suggest towards keeping Knuckles fresh and more useful over the course of the series without drying him up from overuse and a lack of anything new? We know of the obvious choices of using him sparringly or keeping him out, but how can we expand beyond that so he isn't so limited?

Well, though I disagree with your proposed explanation, I do agree that they should give a clear explanation of how Knuckles can justify leaving the island/emerald. My explanation would be that he sets traps. Lots of traps. Everywhere. I think it fits his character more than handing off responsibility to someone else. Beyond that...I guess I'd expand on his treasure hunting hobby. It gives him a solid and reusable reason to be off the island, it could reignite his rivalry with Rouge, and considering how often Eggman digs up some ancient such-and-such to help him take over the world it could give him some useful insight into Eggy's plans.

And honestly, Knuckles because of his history of cooperation gets first billing on this list. Shadow and Amy really do feel a tier under him.

I'd say this is more due to Knuckles being forced into everything, and the fanbase echoing itself, than there being any real value to it.

Shadow's story was only great in one game, when the heroes were a part of what was going on in SA2. Contrast that to Heroes where he was to the side and his own game which was about him and you see what I mean.

And Knuckles was shit in Heroes, irrelevant in ShtH, and shit in '06. There isn't a single character that got through the last decade unscathed.

Even '06 had him to the side.

Ahahaha, seriously? '06 was more about Shadow than Sonic. He was the one pursuing the real bad guy, while Sonic was faffing about with the princess and Eggman.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, though I disagree with your proposed explanation, I do agree that they should give a clear explanation of how Knuckles can justify leaving the island/emerald. My explanation would be that he sets traps. Lots of traps. Everywhere. I think it fits his character more than handing off responsibility to someone else. Beyond that...I guess I'd expand on his treasure hunting hobby. It gives him a solid and reusable reason to be off the island, it could reignite his rivalry with Rouge, and considering how often Eggman digs up some ancient such-and-such to help him take over the world it could give him some useful insight into Eggy's plans.

So then we would have to develop something new along lines if there's something to give insight to Eggman's plans...although, I have to admit it has a bit of a lukewarm feeling to it as it doesn't have that key I'm looking for. But I think that's better left to execution.

But people act like the game should be different parts Sonic and others, this party game roulette, and that's where the series gets its schizophrenia from. Of course the Adventure games started that. I'm saying the gameplay and story should involve Sonic first of all, and these other guys second.

I'm against genre roulette myself, we don't need to play a racing game in one game and a shooting one the next.

However, we KNOW that Sonic should be involved first. We've said it several times in this topic alone. The point of the other guys is who we're focusing on, and storywise, while Sonic is the main character that doesn't mean other characters - even those who aren't Classic characters - can't have an importance that supersedes even the primary hero himself. Storywriting is much too endless to be restrictive in that regard.

Knuckles doesn't need to be immune because they put him in the Sonic story. Shadow is off to the side, with his android subplot. His story is weaker because it doesn't involve other characters. This is why Shadow's harder to work in than Knuckles. It's partially what I mean by cooperation.

Unfortunately, that isn't true at all. Shadow's game alone had him involved with every recurring character in the series, and even then he has Rouge and Omega as those whom he is with more often aside from Sonic and Eggman themselves. So that doesn't make Shadow so much as slightly harder to work with; it's completely the opposite seeing as how he's cooperated plenty of times before, ever since his debut.

You're not getting me. He still had too much going on so that Sonic's story was almost separate. Mephiles was almost his personal villain for the game. Shadow should be worked into a larger plot, not just his own. SA2 was pretty much about Shadow. He would have to be the main focus like Knuckles was with Chaos.

No he doesn't. Not at this point considering that he can be equally used to the same extent as other characters, and neither he nor Knuckles has to have the main focus.

Well I'm looking for ways to work in other characters. Knuckles' history is overdeveloped because there were a lot of questions about his origin.

You mean underdeveloped. If it was overdeveloped, there wouldn't be any questions about his orgins.

Shadow got that treatment too but his games weren't fondly remembered.

Dude, his game is remembered as where this series dark age began and left a bad taste in many people's mouth. People remember his game all too well.

And furthermore, Shadow's history wasn't underdeveloped either. It was actually sufficiently developed to the point that every question involving the purpose of his creation and such was already answered, and they added to that when his own game reared around the corner.

They need an SA1 story. Knuckles' record is clean as far as that's concerned and that's why people like him more.

Really? Because throughout most of my time arguing about the characters, very few people ever said that was the reason they like Knuckles and even fewer (if any) have brought that up as a reason to get Knuckles involved. Throughout out this topic alone you will see most people not paying any attention to it, with one instance favoring to ignore a vital piece of said history just to have him more involved with Sonic and Tails.

And that doesn't even consider the various other topics where this kind of argument takes place.

Ahahaha, seriously? '06 was more about Shadow than Sonic. He was the one pursuing the real bad guy, while Sonic was faffing about with the princess and Eggman.

More like half-and-half with being more about Shadow and Silver. Shadow was taking on half of the actual threat which turned out to be the mastermind, while Silver took on the other half of the threat that was the likely either the result of said mastermind's meddling or some other factor.

Edited February 16, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[\Lennox]

It's the Dynamic Duo all the way, for me. Sonic and Tails are the ultimate tag-team and I really wanna see more of it. Their personalities and skills really compliment each other and I just can't think of one without the other.

Having said that, I do also adore the Triple Threat and would love to see more of that, too, as long as it's relevant and believable, rather than forced or contrived. The reasoning behind Heroes' set-up was weak, but the Speed/Flight/Power triad worked really well as a concept for a well-rounded team with unique strengths and weaknesses depending on who was being used.

But then again, Sonic and Tails are brothers. The bonds of brothers should NEVER be interrupted ;3 They have a lot in common, don't they? I don't see Tails looking up to Knuckles and Shadow anytime soon.

[Badnik Zero]

Dio and CSS: I say Knuckles' record is clean since SA2 because despite character slips, he wasn't the one people were hyped about. That was Shadow. As far as I know not many people disliked Shadow in SA2. Aside from that, Shadow commands the plot's attention too often. He was involved and there were androids, and there were aliens, and it was weird. Yes his game had character cooperation, but with no depth (except maybe Vector in the sad ending). That wasn't story that was cameo fan service. What I mean by "off to the side" is that his story is too isolated from the rest of the cast. Everyone was involved in Chaos. Maybe you could say the same about Black Doom, but it was poorly presented. Shadow hasn't been part of an involved story (featuring the cast in a meaningful way) since SA2. Say it's because the games were bad and I'll agree, but his roles are not remembered well. Make a story about the mystical nature of Chaos Control and have Shadow play a good story role, something like that that concerns other characters. Alien daddies and shadow monsters just doesn't cut it. Sonic doesn't mesh greatly with GUN either. Despite his appearances, Shadow is uninvolved and that's why I think he doesn't fit into a trio. To bring it back to the topic after my ramble.

And I mean Knuckles and Shadow became overdeveloped due to questions, not that they were overdeveloped before they got their stories.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Dabnikz

[Phos]

Power Trio.

No dammit...WE KNOW THAT! We've known it for 20 years!

Typing as loud as you can will get you nowhere.

But back on topic, Knuckles is worth including because he has a preexisting history with Sonic and at some point had a personality that brought something to the group.

[Rusty Spy]

I get where your coming from Dabz.

Shadow is a very independent character, who's conflicts are usually disconnected to that of the primary character's, making it harder for him to be directly involved with Sonic's conflicts as they often times don't intertwine with his own, unlike Knuckles, who's conflicts with protecting the M.E would most of the time lead him to having to help stop Eggman's plans, which is what gives Knux more leeway to be involved with the story than Shadow.