Power Trio or Five Man Band?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Dio and CSS: I say Knuckles' record is clean since SA2 because despite character slips, he wasn't the one people were hyped about. That was Shadow.

I fail to see how hype has anything to do with a character's quality. If anything, that only serves to show which character people have their eyes on the most, not on who's record is clean.

Aside from that, Shadow commands the plot's attention too often.

Simple solution: Don't give him the plot's attention any more than he should. Same applies for other characters.

And even then, there's nothing detrimental to leaving a character out of a plot. It applies to Shadow, it applies to Knuckles, it even applies to Tails.

He was involved and there were androids, and there were aliens, and it was weird. Yes his game had character cooperation, but with no depth (except maybe Vector in the sad ending). That wasn't story that was cameo fan service.

And if you know us any better, we're not too proud of it ourselves.

Shadow hasn't been part of an involved story (featuring the cast in a meaningful way) since SA2.

Neither was any charater, including Knuckles.

Make a story about the mystical nature of Chaos Control and have Shadow play a good story role, something like that that concerns other characters.

Is Chaos Control the only thing that can have Shadow get involved?

Sonic doesn't mesh greatly with GUN either.

How? Because of them being associated with the dark aspects of this series? Nevermind the fact that we can alter it so he can mesh well with them.

But really. How?

Despite his appearances, Shadow is uninvolved and that's why I think he doesn't fit into a trio. To bring it back to the topic after my ramble.

So if he was involved, he would fit into a trio? Nevermind the fact that he already has one, and isn't as uninvolved as you think. Or were you refering to him being in Team Sonic?

And I mean Knuckles and Shadow became overdeveloped due to questions, not that they were overdeveloped before they got their stories.

Having many questions makes it underdeveloped.

The more questions you feel you have to ask the less it has been touched on, and the less developed the subject at hand is. The inverse holds true as well.

Typing as loud as you can will get you nowhere.

It apparently got me somewhere if you felt it was important to have you say something about it.

Edited February 16, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Badnik Zero]

I fail to see how hype has anything to do with a character's quality.

The games and story do that, not hype. But it means when Knuckles screwed up the past eight years, the game didn't have his name on it.

Besides being a classic character, Knuckles was not screwed up so badly. So he's first choice for player three.

Simple solution: Don't give him the plot's attention any more than he should.

Is Chaos Control the only thing that can have Shadow get involved? So if he was involved, he would fit into a trio?

Grouping these quotes because this has to do with my point. Shadow takes the plot when he's involved, that's why I brought up Sonic as the title character. Shadow's got his own stories, and the Sonic story tends to be off doing something else. It's part of his character to do his own thing too. And these stories were so screwed that the only way I can see to work him back again is to have him participate in a larger story of his own making. That's how he fits into a trio. Knuckles reached that point when Shadow was still struggling with his game. And yeah you could work other plots with Shadow. Something about the ARK, something about Gerald's old projects, anything but Black Doom really.

How? Because of them being associated with the dark aspects of this series?

Because they're just a mass of robots without a clear purpose in the games, and much more boring than Eggman's army. GUN is a dead weight on Shadow if you ask me. Not just dark, also realistic. The military is cool in zombie movies, not so cool supporting Sonic. I think they were left out of Unleashed because they complicate things.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Dabnikz

[Phos]

GUN would be a steaming pile in any franchise. They're a trite as trite can be shady government organization that specializes in plot contrivance and boring popcorn enemies.

It apparently got me somewhere if you felt it was important to have you say something about it.

Don't kid yourself, it just makes it look like you're throwing a tantrum to get your way.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The games and story do that, not hype. But it means when Knuckles screwed up the past eight years, the game didn't have his name on it.

Shadow screwed up in the past years as well, but only ONE game had his name on it. But even if he didn't have his name on the game and he was still screwed up, that's not something to overlook.

Besides being a classic character,

Of which I don't really give damn about...

Knuckles was not screwed up so badly. So he's first choice for player three.

But he's still screwed up, and that's still a problem that needs to be fixed.

Shadow takes the plot when he's involved, that's why I brought up Sonic as the title character. Shadow's got his own stories, and the Sonic story tends to be off doing something else. It's part of his character to do his own thing too. And these stories were so screwed that the only way I can see to work him back again is to have him participate in a larger story of his own making. That's how he fits into a trio. Knuckles reached that point when Shadow was still struggling with his game. And yeah you could work other plots with Shadow. Something about the ARK, something about Gerald's old projects, anything but Black Doom really.

But are you telling me that it's not possible for Shadow to participate in a subordinate position alongside Sonic when he gets involved, or even an equal position to another character like Knuckles himself if he were involved with other characters and not a more central one that isn't superior to that of his partner?

And futhermore, is it possible for Shadow to work with something other than things involved in his past. I've even given Knuckles more freedom than that, like say if a sudden villain cracked the world into several pieces to unleash a monster. *hint hint* So I'm sure we can roll with more than just Gerald's old projects or the Ark.

Because they're just a mass of robots without a clear purpose in the games, and much more boring than Eggman's army. GUN is a dead weight on Shadow if you ask me. Not just dark, also realistic. The military is cool in zombie movies, not so cool supporting Sonic. I think they were left out of Unleashed because they complicate things.

So here's some solutions:

1. Make them less realistic
   
2. Make them less dark
   
3. Make them more interesting
   
4. Give them a clear purpose
   
5. Make them less complicated
   

Really, how come you never thought of any of that concerning GUN? Like I said, it's not like we can't alter things to fit where they can be involved and make an impact.

Don't kid yourself, it just makes it look like you're throwing a tantrum to get your way.

Well unless you have a low threshold of how many bolded, capitalized, and italicized words looks like a tantrum, the actual intent was for emphasis, FYI.

Edited February 16, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

So.....What's the problem again?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So.....What's the problem again?

Um...aside from whats being discussed, I really don't know. I guess Knux is on his way towards being a base breaker himself.

[Kuzu]

Um...aside from whats being discussed, I really don't know. I guess Knux is on his way towards being a base breaker himself.

Sure looks that way, I mean Shadow doesn't even bring up this much diversity.

Seeing how Knux is such a sensitive subeject, let's change it to who would be the other most likely to tag along with Sonic(Other than the obvious), like Cream or Shadow, or Rouge.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sure looks that way, I mean Shadow doesn't even bring up this much diversity.

[Kuzu]

I guess that's a sign of change then. Anyway...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And once again Shadow proves to be better than Knuckles in something else, I mean he took his status as arch rival, then his spotlight, and now he's passed on his Base Breaker status to Knuckles....guy just can't catch a break can he.

[Kuzu]

I predict the worse has yet to come in that regard.

[Scar]

See a lot of this stuff needs to be retooled and improved.

Due to massive plot inconsistancies and creating a plot as an excuse to tie stages together, characters have been written into the dirt, or have been completely ignored and underdeveloped.

Knuckles as of late has either been ignored or been randomly plonked in the story for nothing more than what appears to be fanservice.

Maybe his character should be tweaked a little. I like this whole idea that he's a laid back, but easily angered guardian. Lets stick with that. The only problem is that because of his isolation on Angel Island, and the apparent lack of any other residents , he can't really leave the Master Emerald alone. This is augmented by the fact that Eggbotnik and/or Rouge are likely to steal it. It would likely get a bit stale to just have the Master Emerald being thrown in every plot just to get Knux involved. Why not make it so that Knux isn't always directly involved with Sonic and Tails, but only really when he needs to, i.e to help out some friends in need. In such a case, why not use what we already have as a line of defense to hide the Master Emerald.

Why not bring back Hidden Palace Zone. It could be used as an underground place to hide the M.E when nobody is around to protect it, as it usually is found on the Emerald Alter on the surface.

I dunno. Maybe that's a little to contrived, but it could work, as it isn't exactly making something up for plot conveniance, because its something that already exists, but has been underutilised. It would be a nice way to bring back a classic zone too. Having said that, Angel Island is massive, large enough to hold the bulk of the stages in S3&K. It could indeed be home to many other Emerald Alters.

[Rusty Spy]

That person sees a lot more in Cream than I have, and I'd have to agree with that person. Now if we can actually channel that for use in a plot, Cream could actually dig out of the hole of shallowness that she's in.

[batson]

You know, I think it'd be better to just leave Cream as a side line character who doesn't actually get involved in conflict. It's not even in her upbringing to use violence, and I can't see her seriously joining alongside the grown ups on a dangerous adventure.

Not to mention.... her character is very shallow. She doesn't have any sort of interesting dynamics with the other characters that directly relate to the actual plot, and there's not really anything she can do to contribute it. She's just there as cutesy baggage.

She can have some depth to her, but she's pretty much a glorified Flicky.

Edited February 16, 2011 by batson

[Kuzu]

Now Amy on the other hand, that's a character who really cant bring much interesting to the table as a playable character. But then again, she certainly has more to her than Cream does when you take in story as a factor.

[Naysu]

woah a LOT of pages to read and catch up on here, and everyone has valid points, it seems knuckles is a sore spot here... i just want to throw this in here though....

in pretty much EVERY character description of knuckles, one of the BIG and MAIN things describing him, is that of being a treasure hunter, a SKILLED one at that! im really not sure how knuckles can be a skilled treasure hiunter, if he never leaves the island.

personally, and this is just my opinion, the fact that he has a widely stated hobby like that gives knuckles enough incentive to leave the island once in a while.

[Kuzu]

woah a LOT of pages to read and catch up on here, and everyone has valid points, it seems knuckles is a sore spot here... i just want to throw this in here though....

in pretty much EVERY character description of knuckles, one of the BIG and MAIN things describing him, is that of being a treasure hunter, a SKILLED one at that! im really not sure how knuckles can be a skilled treasure hiunter, if he never leaves the island.

personally, and this is just my opinion, the fact that he has a widely stated hobby like that gives knuckles enough incentive to leave the island once in a while.

[Rusty Spy]

Now Amy on the other hand, that's a character who really cant bring much interesting to the table as a playable character.

[Kuzu]

Used to.Ever since SA1 the emeralds have been just scattered all over the world, completely out of the hands of any specific guardian. Hell, even in Sonic 3 Knuckles being their guardian didn't make much sense since they were previously established to only be in the special stage.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You know, I think it'd be better to just leave Cream as a side line character who doesn't actually get involved in conflict. It's not even in her upbringing to use violence, and I can't see her seriously joining alongside the grown ups on a dangerous adventure.

I never said she should use more violence, I'm saying she could use more depth and use as a character. She likely the most pacifistic character in this series, but even then there's nothing prevent a pacifist from getting involved in conflicts be it physical, mental, or anything.

Not to mention.... her character is very shallow.

I already made that clear in my last post and said she needs to be reworked to dig her self out of it.

She doesn't have any sort of interesting dynamics with the other characters that directly relate to the actual plot, and there's not really anything she can do to contribute it. She's just there as cutesy baggage.

That's all the more reason to brainstorm what she can do to be interesting in the plot. The hard part is actually building her character to be interesting as opposed to throwing something her way to allow her the same results. Edited February 17, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Could've sworn I listed what we could do with Cream.

Also(And I hope I'm not re-opening Pandora's box here) one reason I think Knuckles should appear more is his limited interactions with the rest of the cast, I mean aside from Sonic or Rouge he doesn't really interact with anyone else.

Let me put on my Flame shield:

And I'm gone.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Shadic93

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Also(And I hope I'm not re-opening Pandora's box here) one reason I think Knuckles should appear more is his limited interactions with the rest of the cast, I mean aside from Sonic or Rouge he doesn't really interact with anyone else.

Then he has to be with Sonic or Tails much less than he usually does during that time he's interacting with other characters. In other words, he can't make their trio for a long while. Really, every character could help from interacting a lot more than their usual teams. We should do away with segregating characters into teams and from limiting such interactions. It's not like the teams will be dropped entirely, but for the sake of making a more dynamic plot we should keep from relying on it each and every adventure.

But Amy could very well take his place since she's usually following Sonic everywhere, although I think we could be better off giving her much more purpose than just tailing Sonic. Giving her that position may give her more to her character if the events she's with them allows her to do much more than previous games before her. They did a good job making her stand out as a character than a just mere stalker in the Adventures, and for some reason, they de-evolved her from that.

But if we're talking about other character's for Knux to interact with, who would you like to see him with?

Edited February 18, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Aquaslash]

I have no idea what the discussion is now, but I'm gonna directly answer the OP.

I would think that Sonic and Eggman are the main characters period. Everyone else is second tier/side attraction. As far as grouping them, I prefer the Heroes dymanic where they pair off into threes (I REALLY liked the SFP dynamic). If we must have something bigger, than groups of those three can get together, ala the Freedom Fighters, and the much expanded Chaotix in the comic (I don't care if you don't care about the comics, they suit my point)

Direct answer is Power Trio then. There's loads of them too. The four from Heroes, plus Team Babylon, and the extras in the comics (Team Hooligan FTW)

[Rusty Spy]

I never said she should use more violence, I'm saying she could use more depth and use as a character. She likely the most pacifistic character in this series, but even then there's nothing prevent a pacifist from getting involved in conflicts be it physical, mental, or anything.

That's all the more reason to brainstorm what she can do to be interesting in the plot. The hard part is actually building her character to be interesting as opposed to throwing something her way to allow her the same results.

What I'm saying is, is it really worth it to try and fit her into a plot? Even if you improved her character, there's not much you can do with her in an actual story.

[Badnik Zero]

Cream should be the Chao raiser and breeder when they decide to bring the little things back. Because of her nature she's more of a nurturing, protective character. See it made sense in Chronicles where should could play healer, but there's much less room for that in an action platformer. But I could imagine her in Amy's SA1 role if Amy took a larger part.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Dabnikz