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The Canonicity of Sonic Characters!

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Ok, since i I made everything clear..

Ok, if he's connected with the developers then i I should reconsider.

BTW what makes my posts poorly writen written? I don't show arrogance and unlike some people don't click on "-" just because iI disagree with somebody.

Talking about grammar, here.

You know, that reminds me of Castlevania:circle of the moon. The develpoers once said that it's not canon, though it had absolutely nothing in it to consider it a not canon game. Funnily enogh, they later reconsidered and said it's canon.

So because it happened to some Castlevania game, that means that it will apply to this instance of the Sonic series? This is something we will have to wait to see. Except BioWare isn't doing it anymore, but you can ignore that if you want. Hasn't stopped you yet.

What's the way of considering something not canon anyway? It's like if one of Harry Potter books [or any other book] was not very great and that would make it not canon? Who cares if it's connected with the previous games more than every other book [in this case, game]? That's stupid. But in the end it's up to developers to decide, so..

It has nothing to do whether or not one person likes it or not. What makes something canon is dependent on the series producers, or whoever is in charge. You really haven't proposed a compelling argument here.

Yaker's mom doesn't afflict the story at all. I hate that damn thing as much as you do, but that's not really a reason to consider a game non canon, is it?^^

Are you kidding me? There is no possible way to have both happen. According to the Wii version, the entire amusement park was destroyed by a ball of plasma energy, while according to the DS version, last minute monster of the week did it. These are two different endings. To very, very different endings.

And besides, who says I hate Yacker's mom? Don't assume.

Edited by Indigo Rush

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Grammar_Nazi_Logo.jpg?1266845843

Don't be one of those guys-smart-asses. I am not a native speaker. I'm still studying. I would like to watch you speak russian without any grammatical mistakes.

So because it happened to some Castlevania game, that means that it will apply to this instance of the Sonic series? This is something we will have to wait to see. Except BioWare isn't doing it anymore, but you can ignore that if you want. Hasn't stopped you yet.

It's not just about castlevania. It's just silly.

It has nothing to do whether or not one person likes it or not. What makes something canon is dependent on the series producers, or whoever is in charge. You really haven't proposed a compelling argument here.

I take it that I should be a producer to convince you otherwise, right? xD Well, i'm not a producer, so what arguments can i propose to you?

According to the Wii version, the entire amusement park was destroyed by a ball of plasma energy, while according to the Wii DS version, last minute monster of the week did it.

Who told you that? I've just replayed the boss fight in the DS version and I saw NOTHING that would imply that the park was destroyed by Yaker's mom. Have you played it yourself?

And besides, who says I hate Yacker's mom? Don't assume.

Wait, you actually like that abomination and the whole crappy fight?

Edited by ArtFenix

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Grammar_Nazi_Logo.jpg?1266845843

Don't be one of those guys-smart-asses. I am not a native speaker. I'm still studying. I would like to watch you speak russian without any grammatical mistakes.

Pardon me for not looking at everyone's signature. Props to calling me a smart-ass, by the way. I haven't even called you names.

It's not just about castlevania. It's just silly.

I know it isn't just about being Castlevania. I'm still trying to figure out how this counts as an argument.

I take it that I should be a producer to convince you otherwise, right? xD Well, i'm not a producer, so what arguments can i propose to you?

Yep. Or at least give me some proper citation for your argument.

Who told you that? I've just replayed the boss fight in the DS version and i saw NOTHING that would imply that the park was destroyed by Yaker's mom. Have you played it yourself?

I have seen the final cutscenes on YouTube, although it's been a while, so my memory on that is sketchy... but this doesn't help your argument at all... the park wasn't even destroyed at all? That's an even bigger discrepancy.

Wait, you actually like that abomination and the whole crappy fight?

Nope. I never even played it. You assumed again. Don't tell me I hate something as much as you do unless you know for a fact that I do, in which case I have no strong opinion.

I don't think it helps that I don't care about what we're arguing about either. Eh. Believe what you want. I don't care anymore.

Edited by Indigo Rush

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Personally, just about the only games I personally disregard from a plot standpoint are Chronicles (since it was left incomplete) and Spinball (since it was an entirely US-made near-SatAM spinoff). Oh, and I suppose most of the 8-Bit games as well (I'm sure nobody will miss Labyrinth or Sonic Blast).

As others have said, I don't consider the Olympic or All-Stars titles to even fit in with the plot, same goes for stuff like Pinball Party.

As far as the handheld games go, I'm not too fussed. I personally just assumed that Battle was set after Heroes.

Regarding the Riders and Storybook games, I always personally considered them canon, but again as others have said, since they're pretty much self-contained, it doesn't really matter whether they are or not.

As strange as it sounds, there are two games that, whilst clearly canon (at least in one case, the other is personal preference), I outright disregard and don't accept, despite acknowledging them as such. Namely, Shadow the Hedgehog and Riders Zero Gravity. Both have such obcenely ridiculous plots that, whilst I acknoledge their significance, just try to personally look the other way and forget they happened.

Created by/ descended from aliens, indeed. Pfft. :lol:

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I know it isn't just about being Castlevania. I'm still trying to figure out how this counts as an argument.
Just a similar situation. A game which has nothing that contradicts the story is for some mysterious reason considered not canon. That's silly.

I have seen the final cutscenes on YouTube, although it's been a while, so my memory on that is sketchy... but this doesn't help your argument at all... the park wasn't even destroyed at all? That's an even bigger discrepancy.
So you don't even remember at all. I've looked into the game once again. Guess what I found? xD The park was destroyed just like in the Wii version. In the same way. That CG scene is missing, that's all [it seems they were lazy to add it], but some lines from the dialog between Sonic and Eggman clearly show that the park was crumbling.xD

Nope. I never even played it. You assumed again. Don't tell me I hate something as much as you do unless you know for a fact that I do, in which case I have no strong opinion.

Ok.

I don't think it helps that I don't care about what we're arguing about either. Eh. Believe what you want. I don't care anymore.

As you wish.

Edited by ArtFenix

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First of all: he's a fan of Sonic, just like us. Then he's cummunity manager, but he's neither Iizuka, nor a part of sonicteam. Those people are in charge of making games. AUK is not. But if he spoke to the guys from sonicteam i might change my mind.

I'm not like you. I'm not gonna trust somebody just because he/she works for Sega, but is not connected with the developers.

And i don't see ANYTHING that could make sonic colors ds/sonic chronicles stories non canon. I mean, really? What makes them non canon, huh?

Well, if you insist of hearing it from Iizuka or people of Sonic Team, then you can wait till the end of time. Or, you should...

baloughshades.jpg

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RE: Sonic City - I didn't code the site no, but I wrote a hell of a lot of it, all the character text and bios had to be approved by Sonic Team and when I came in a lot of what had already been done I had to completely re-write had to be fixed.

Sorry for the mix up on who did what for the site.

Ok, since i made everything clear..

Ok, if he's connected with the developers then i should reconsider.

AAUK is in touch with Sonic Team often as part of his job, same goes for staff at other SEGA departments in other regions. I explained in an earlier post that one example is that as we work on Summer of Sonic throughout the year AAUK has to get absolutely everything approved for the event by Sonic Team, so he's always in touch with them about that on top of other things. AAUK definitely knows the official Sonic info.

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Mainstream canon is mainstream canon. Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3K, Sonic 4, SA1/SA2, Heroes, Shadow, Unleashed, and Colors. (Erasing Heroes and Shadow would do the world a favor though considering Shadow and/or no references since then have returned past ShTH, and thus when removing those two games you can almost consider Shadow's martyr-like death and story closure legitimate. Nextgen is retconned so it currently exists in no canon.) *INB4OUTRAGE*

Handheld canon is handheld canon. I guess you could put the Aspect GG/SMS series here. Along with that, you also put the Advances, the Rushes, the Rivals, and whatever here too. Aspect's series proves that there could be a portable version of the same game but be a different canon altogether. In other words, Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 for the GG/SMS were different canons than S1/S2 from the Sega MegaGeneDrive; and so is the difference between Colors on the Wii and DS.

Spinoff canon is spinoff canon. This means storybook games, Riders games, Chronicles, Chaotix, 3D Blast, Shuffle, and what have you.

Other canon is other canon. SatAM/Archie, Fleetway/STC, Underground, AoSTH, etc. go here.

I think that sums it up right there.

Edited by Azukara

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AAUK is in touch with Sonic Team often as part of his job, same goes for staff at other SEGA departments in other regions. I explained in an earlier post that one example is that as we work on Summer of Sonic throughout the year AAUK has to get absolutely everything approved for the event by Sonic Team, so he's always in touch with them about that on top of other things. AAUK definitely knows the official Sonic info.

Oh if that's how it is.. I didn't know he was THAT close to sonicteam. I still think the way I think about rushes, colors ds and chronicles, but:

Handheld canon is handheld canon. I guess you could put the Aspect GG/SMS series here. Along with that, you also put the Advances, the Rushes, the Rivals, and whatever here too. Aspect's series proves that there could be a portable version of the same game but be a different canon altogether. In other words, Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 for the GG/SMS were different canons than S1/S2 from the Sega MegaGeneDrive; and so is the difference between Colors on the Wii and DS.

Spinoff canon is spinoff canon. This means storybook games, Riders games, Chronicles, Chaotix, 3D Blast, Shuffle, and what have you.

Very good explanation, thank you! Though Chronicles is connected to so many "main canon" games, so I still can't understand where it belongs..xD

I think that sums it up right there.

Indeed. Thanks again.

P.S. I just saw Kiberbot wrote the exact same thing so props to him as well!

Edited by ArtFenix

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Cummunity manager

I'm not sure Sega has one of those, but then I guess there is a lot of hentai to sort out!

IMO surely Colour's DS wouldn't work in main series Canon because a number of characters appear that clearly did not contribute in the main Wii Game? Plus lol Yackers mom.

The handheld-verse being alternate makes a lot of sense thinking about it really, as it's almost always run on it's own little course from 8-bit onwards. Though I like to think Sonic 2 8-bit was like the first time Tails learned about how much of a jerk Robotnik was and solidified his relationship with Sonic as best buddy.

But that said overall, Sonic still has better overall Canon management than Mario ;P

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(Erasing Heroes and Shadow would do the world a favor though considering Shadow and/or no references since then have returned past ShTH, and thus when removing those two games you can almost consider Shadow's martyr-like death and story closure legitimate.

Or you could have a decent writer handle it and Shadow's revival much better than they did by not being so quick about it and doing a actual good job with it. There's more than a few ways to deal with it.

Nextgen is retconned so it currently exists in no canon.) *INB4OUTRAGE*

No, it still exists in canon despite the reset. And it would still leave a bit of a hole between it and SA2 because of the events that happen before it self-retconned if you erase Heroes and Shadow.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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I beg to differ.

RE: Sonic City - I didn't code the site no, but I wrote a hell of a lot of it, all the character text and bios had to be approved by Sonic Team and when I came in a lot of what had already been done I had to completely re-write had to be fixed.

Finally, something straight from the horse's mouth ON OUR domain.

Speaking of which, since when did Sonic Team have any European representatives higher than you on the ladder?

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To answer your question Bipolar Bear for clarification I'm not a member of Sonic Team or a developer. In terms of Sonic and Europe, there are others but if you want to get down and dirty into this sort of thing the only person you've got is me. Also that should that excerpt you quoted should have said "I had to completely re-write and fix." sorry about that.

Now then.

Again I have to point out for people too busy to see past their fan ragings, the list I put down is a list of events that have definately occurred and that all main storyline games that the current modern continuity which came into force with Adventure actually follows on from. Amazing people can get so wound up by the fact Perfect Chaos etc happened and that Sonic Drift might not have.

re: Colours DS/Wii as people are pointing out yes, you can't have both happen as the endings are completely different so naturally Wii goes over the DS in terms of what "officially" occurred. That as ArtFenix mentioned quite rightly, the DS version made reference to Rush and Rush Adventure as then you almost have this Dimps-Handheld offshoot/add-on.

As I said elsewhere I'm really gonna have to draw a diagram at some point on this... its kind of complex. But in terms of the "main branch" of story - as it stands - you've got Sonic 1, 2, CD, 3&K (In some form) > Adventure > Adventure 2 > Heroes > Shadow > Unleashed > Colours (Wii Version)

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Mainstream canon is mainstream canon. Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3K, Sonic 4, SA1/SA2, Heroes, Shadow, Unleashed, and Colors. (Erasing Heroes and Shadow would do the world a favor though considering Shadow and/or no references since then have returned past ShTH, and thus when removing those two games you can almost consider Shadow's martyr-like death and story closure legitimate. Nextgen is retconned so it currently exists in no canon.) *INB4OUTRAGE*

Handheld canon is handheld canon. I guess you could put the Aspect GG/SMS series here. Along with that, you also put the Advances, the Rushes, the Rivals, and whatever here too. Aspect's series proves that there could be a portable version of the same game but be a different canon altogether. In other words, Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 for the GG/SMS were different canons than S1/S2 from the Sega MegaGeneDrive; and so is the difference between Colors on the Wii and DS.

Spinoff canon is spinoff canon. This means storybook games, Riders games, Chronicles, Chaotix, 3D Blast, Shuffle, and what have you.

Other canon is other canon. SatAM/Archie, Fleetway/STC, Underground, AoSTH, etc. go here.

I think that sums it up right there.

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As I said elsewhere I'm really gonna have to draw a diagram at some point on this... its kind of complex. But in terms of the "main branch" of story - as it stands - you've got Sonic 1, 2, CD, 3&K (In some form) > Adventure > Adventure 2 > Heroes > Shadow > Unleashed > Colours (Wii Version)

Edited by XRick

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As I said elsewhere I'm really gonna have to draw a diagram at some point on this... its kind of complex. But in terms of the "main branch" of story - as it stands - you've got Sonic 1, 2, CD, 3&K (In some form) > Adventure > Adventure 2 > Heroes > Shadow > Unleashed > Colours (Wii Version)

Isn't the only real application of this simply things that might be referenced in later games? There's really nothing saying that all the other games (the sole exception being ports of the same game) can't have occurred in the spaces between those games (though some games may require more altering than others. Again, Spinball can still have happened with only 7 emeralds. In fact, it's almost a given. Every single new game, the characters are all "long time no see herp derp" and such.

In any case, I think the fact that there are LOADS of side titles with storylines goes to show that the team hardly gives a rats ass about keeping a coherent storyline between them all.

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Still no mention of King Boom Boo's canonicity. :( Very disappointed...

Adventure 2 is Canon, therefore Boom Boo is canon

Basically I look at the Sonic Universe in an Archie alt universe sort of way...You have the main games from the consoles only, the 8-bit timeline and the advance/rush timeline

8-Bit timeline

Sonic the Hedgehog -> Sonic 2 -> Sonic Chaos -> Triple Trouble -> Tails Adventure/Tails Skypatrol -> G-Sonic/Sonic Blast (while Tails is off doing his own stuff...)

Advance Rush timeline

(events transpire post- Sonic Adventure)Sonic Advance -> Sonic Advance 2 -> (gap in timeline but assume that Sonic Adventure 2 pretty much happened too) -> Sonic Battle -> Sonic Advance 3 -> Sonic Rush -> Sonic Rush Adventure -> Sonic Colours DS

Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 effect both console and handheld timelines

Edited by jennytablina

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Honestly I'm not to fussy, if it was officially made by Sega and connects to the main storylines then I would say that game and said characters in it are canon. I was one of the people who actually liked Sonic Chronicles but because it wasn't even made by Sega I can't hold that game or characters in it canon. Sorry Shade, I like you, but you are just a Bioware fan character lol. I also wish to forget Elise and Mephiles even existed, we could just say since the story literally erases itself she was just there and Mephiles ceases to exist altogether.

My Canonicity Of Sonic Characters Chart

-----------------------------------------------

1.) Sonic - Canon obviously :P

2.) Tails - Canon

3.) Knuckles - Canon

4.) Dr. Ivo Robotnik / Eggman - Canon

5.) Amy - Canon

6.) Metal Sonic - Canon

7.) Mighty - Canon even though he's been forgotten he was still in main stream Sonic games such as Chaotix

8.) Vector - Canon

9.) Espio - Canon

10.) Charmy - Canon

11.) Shadow - Canon

12.) Silver - Canon

13.) Blaze - Canon

14.) Cream - Canon, I hold the Advance games as cannon, plus she was a cameo in Sonic Adventure 1

15.) Maria - Canon

16.) Dr. Gerald Robotnik - Canon

17.) G.U.N / G.U.N Commander - Canon

18.) Chip - Canon, he was in a mainstream Sonic game with quite a important role and played a big part in the story

19.) Ray - Canon, even though he is also quite forgotten he was still in a Sonic game

20.) Fang - Canon, even though he is also forgotten he was in quite a lot of Game Gear games and Sonic the Fighters and I feel those are cannon

21.) Bark - Canon, but extremely forgotten, I find Sonic Fighters cannon, it was originally going to be ported to Sega Saturn at one point

22.) Bean - Canon, but also extremely forgotten

23.) Tails Doll - Canon, Sonic R was a mainstream Sonic game for Sega Saturn :P

24.) Metal Knuckles - Canon, he also made an appearance in one of the Advance games

25.) Egg Robo - Canon

26.) Jet The Hawk - Canon, I find Sonic Riders as cannon, it has 3 games in its series and can easily be added to a sub adventure in the mainstream series

27.) Wave The Swallow - Canon

28.) Storm The Albatross - Canon

29.) Chaos - Canon

30.) Tikal - Canon

31.) E - 102 Gamma - Canon

32.) Rouge - Canon

33.) E - Series - Canon

34.) E - 123 Omega - Canon

35.) Black Doom - Canon, yes Shadow The Hedgeog too XD

36.) E - 101 Beta - Canon

37.) Big The Cat - Canon

38.) Biolizard - Canon

39.) Emerl - Canon

40.) Gemerl - Canon

41.) Chao - Canon XD

42.) Heavy And Bomb - Canon, even though in one game and totally random and forgotten they were still totally in Chaotix lol

43.) Marine - Semi Canon, I honestly question the cannonicity of this one

44.) Shade - Non Canon, she was featured in only one game made by a different company, Bioware no other references since then have been made

45.) Mecha Sonic (Sonic 3 Metal Sonic) - Canon

46.) Silver Sonic (Sonic 2 Metal Sonic) - Canon

47.) Eggman Nega - Semi Canon

48.) Flickies - Canon, Flickies Island anyone? Plus all those darned capsules!

49.) Cubot - Canon

50.) Orbot - Canon

51.) Dark Gaia - Canon

52.) IX - Non Canon, Bioware made this game not Sega

53.) Nocturnus Clan - Non Canon

54.) Kukku Army - Semi Canon, I kind of question this games cannonicity

55.) Yacker - Canon, woo Sonic Colours!

56.) Mephiles - Semi Canon, his existence gets erased in the end yay!

57.) Elise - Semi Canon, its like nothing even happened and they never even met! Hurray for no more bestiality!

58.) Solaris - Semi Canon, it never even happened ;)

59.) Iblis - Semi Canon

60.) Lumina Flowlight - Non Canon, it was a card game...lol

61.) Shahra - Canon

62.) Knights of the Round Table - Canon O_o

63.) Caliburn - Canon

64.) Merlina - Canon, sure the storybook games were iffy, but I guess you can say they really happened >.>

65.) Illumina - Non Canon

66.) Void - Non Canon

67.) Witchcart - Semi Canon, I also kind of question this game...

68.) Erazor - Canon

69.) King Arthur - Canon

70.) Other Random Animals - Canon, Sonic saves them from capsules in like every game plus Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 nuff said :P

I also find everyone's super form canon for the most part even though I think its gotten out of hand. Everyone can go Super Saiyan now and Sonic has a trillion different forms. I hold Werehog cannon and cartoon and comic book characters since they are not in the official games I have to say they are non canon to the games and official storylines but that doesn't mean you can't still enjoy the comics and cartoons. :P Phew glad thats over, I think I got everyone I could think of listed.

Edited by SonikkuGenesis89

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I request this topic be retitled "Canon's Core (Mission 1 A-rank)"

Like I said earlier, things are easiest if you just have the main series be the main storyline and the in-universe (non crossover) spin-offs as side stories. Arguing whether games like Chaotix or Riders are canon or not is pointless, as either way does not break the overarching storyline. When I play Heroes, I simply think of the Chaotix's backstory being told in the side story that was the game Chaotix. Canon never comes into play.

As for the handheld games, again just have them be side stories, crossing into with the main series only when the main series uses characters or references events from the handhelds. Let's say you play Sonic Heroes and you want to know Cream's background. You just need to play Sonic Advance 2 to know how she got roped into the storyline. The entirety of the handheld games act as side stories to the main series. The only exceptions are handheld adaptations of console games and games that occur in the animated universes (Mean Bean Machine, Sonic Spinball).

I very much doubt that when Sonic Team were developing Riders or the Storybook games, they were thinking "We're creating a non-canon game!" or "We're creating a new universe!". They simply were making spin-offs from the main series, with the idea that the same Sonic of Sonic Adventure at one point raced a bunch of birds on hover boards and at another point snoozed off and dreamt he was in a storybook. However, Sonic Team is surly also fully aware that the events of the spin-off titles do not dictate the main series and that in the end the main series is what drives the story forward. The spin-offs are just fun deviations.

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@SonikkuGenesis89: the word is "canon", not "cannon". The canon is the "official" continuity. A cannon is a weapon.

Sorry didn't notice the typo's honestly, it was 3am when I wrote that post and I was pretty tired to say the least.

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7.) Mighty - Canon even though he's been forgotten he was still in main stream Sonic games such as Chaotix

Chaotix was explicitly named non-canon. Or, rather, was all but explicitly named non-canon.

Reports of my return have been greatly exaggerated.

Edited by Tornado

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8-Bit timeline

Sonic the Hedgehog -> Sonic 2 -> Sonic Chaos -> Triple Trouble -> Tails Adventure/Tails Skypatrol -> G-Sonic/Sonic Blast (while Tails is off doing his own stuff...)

If we proceed from Japanese version of the story, Tails Adventure is a prequel, which takes place before Sonic and Tails met each other.

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