Sonic's Control Mechanics Idea Thread

[Indigo Rush]

In the "Do you have faith in Iizuka" topic, a little discussion regarding how one would control Sonic in the next game, particularly focusing on boosting and spindashing mechanics popped up. I made this topic so we could continue this discussion without derailing the other one.

I've been constantly thinking about this and have observed all 3D Sonic games (to the point of "ghost playing" them on a controller) to get a feeling of how Sonic should control in the third dimension. Rather than keep these ideas to myself and a few friends, I figured I'd use this opportunity to share what I have been conjuring up.

But rather than make this a thread dedicated to my control scheme idea alone, I want to see what other members here had in mind for Sonic's control scheme (and perhaps other characters!) and explain how it would work, why it would work, etcetera, etcetera.

So, listing something with no explanation and leaving is discouraged here, if you have an idea or concept, please explain the reasoning behind it if you can. It'll take more than just listing things off with no detail if you want each other to understand the reasoning behind your idea (well, aside from the obvious jumping and moving mechanics, those are self-explanatory)

I have really put a lot of thought into this, and I hope you think this is a good control scheme, but if you find issues with it, please explain why you feel that way. The more constructive the criticism, the better it may improve. That being said, I want to waste no more time diving into my concepts.

- - - - -

What really needs to be done is lay down the basic idea, after which buttons can be assigned. Sonic Colors mixed with Sonic Adventure, in a nutshell, but to be more in-depth, here is what I figured would work best for 3D Sonic:

1) Sonic needs to be able to platform as well as be able to run briskly through levels, so acceleration needs to be taken into account

* Sonic's acceleration isn't brisk like Unleashed or Colors, but is more in tune with the Adventure series, taking about 3 seconds to reach full speed

- To keep it simple, start of with Sonic Adventure speed, end with Sonic Colors speed.

* Sonic's turning sensitivity and radius is altered depending on speed. The slower you're travelling, the more tight and precise your turns are, making platforming less of a hassle

* Likewise, the faster you are travelling, the wider your turn angles are, and it's harder to control Sonic in any direction other than the direction you were originally running (probably upward, but possible downward, depending on camera angle)

2) Sonic's jump must be similar to the classic games, in the sense that your momentum is carried

* If Sonic is moving quickly, he jumps farther, if he is moving slowly, his jump doesn't cover as much air, much like in Sonic Adventure, actually

* Ala Sonic Colors, tapping the jump button twice will result in different actions depending on the situation

- Around enemies or other targets, it will function as the homing attack, necessary for accurate platforming in a 3D space

- Otherwise, implement a double jump mechanic, to allow a way to platform easier

* For other characters, their air-action, so called, would vary depending on their abilities. Tails could fly, Knuckles could glide, Blaze could hover with her fire ability similar to E-102 or Eggman in SA2, or Silver could hover in the same way that he did in Sonic 2006, a different mechanic than Blaze.

3) A boost mechanic should be implemented to give Sonic a way to defend himself without having to lose momentum

* The boost needn't be like a bullet, ala Sonic Unleashed, but rather a sort of "instant top-speed" feature, limited by an energy gauge, which could be used for multiple things

* Turning should be rendered nigh impossible during this mode. The sacrifice of control for temporary speed and invulnerability

* The gauge shouldn't be refilled by commonplace items, ala rings in Unleashed

- Rather, I propose that the gauge refills itself after Sonic is no longer utilizing a move that depends on it

* The boost can't be spammed, as it takes a couple seconds to refill the gauge to an appropriate level to start boosting effectively; boosting constantly will prove to be a pain, so strategy must be implemented

- Additionally, for areas that may require prolonged use of the boost, item boxes/capsules with energy-regenerators can be placed appropriately throughout levels

* The boost can only be activated when mobile at a reasonable speed, as boosting while standing still can be hazardous in platforming sections.

- Rather than boost, a basic attack that is less speed-centered and more melee-focused will provide a reasonable combat mechanism when on a tedious area, say, the somersault

4) The spindash should return, if not only for fanservice, but rolling is Sonic's traditional method of attack

* Activated when standing still, taking time to charge with the energy gauge, the spindash is initially more powerful than the boost, although control is completely nonexistent as long as Sonic is boosting forward.

* The same button used to initiate the spindash should be the button that activates the rolling mechanic which has been absent since the classic games. Rather than boost Sonic forward, Sonic turns into a rolling pinball, at the mercy of the terrain, and perhaps the opposing force of player input (holding the analog stick in the opposing direction will slow him down, moving left or right will change direction slightly)

* Additionally, the rolling attack can double as a way to roll underneath cramped spaces, similar to the slide mechanic in Unleashed

* If necessary, for other characters, rather than a spindash, another secondary move could be implemented when standing still. An example would be Silver's psychic shock attack seen in Sonic 2006, which was necessary to pick up enemy robots if projectiles couldn't be hurled back at them. This doesn't necessarily mean the character cannot roll when in motion, but it eliminates the spindash from their move list, making it Sonic-specific.

* Perhaps the spindash could be either implemented by double-tapping this button, making it a crouch button when standing still and pressing it once, and an attack when pressed twice rapidly, then holding to charge power, and release. This could be true for other characters, say, a digging ability for Knuckles.

* Holding the analog stick while crouching could roll Sonic forward a little, slowly, with better controlling mechanics than if you started rolling at a running start, similar to the Morph Ball in the Metroid series, only at a slower pace. (This move makes the most sense, and could be useful for getting through cramped spaces when not enough room to go for a rolling start is available, and a spindash isn't appropriate for this platforming challenge)

- This could lead to some interesting platforming puzzles dependant on Sonic's (or any other character's) rolling ability.

5) The quick-step should be kept in order to move out of the way of obstacles without sacrificing momentum

* The effectiveness of this move varies on how quickly Sonic is travelling; since Sonic's turning radius becomes less effective as he increases speed, the quick-step will become more necessary, so alter the sensitivity of this mode in direct relation to travelling speed

* Can possibly double as an attack, as seen in Sonic Colors

6) The above applies to the drifting mechanic as well

* Useful for wide turns

* Dependant on Sonic's relative speed

* Can double as an attack as well

7) The quick-stomp should return as the combination of the jump button, and the rolling button in mid-air, to break through certain objects

* Induces an interesting move, when near a slope, using this attack and keeping hold of the rolling button will give Sonic ample momentum to fling himself through the slope, to the other side at high speeds: Thing of inverse-convex curves in levels like Spring Yard Zone or Casino Night Zone

8) 3D to 2D mechanics needn't be ignored entirely, but considering that this is a 3D Sonic game in nature, keep the 2D sections relevant to their location

* Pinball and water levels in particular favor the 2D perspective, so naturally their occurrence is higher in said locations, though not particularly restricted to them.

* Additionally, areas that favor the 2D perspective should take a risk and try the third dimension; a 3D water exploration level and some 3D half-pipes and slopes would be very fun if implemented properly.

9) An extra button for picking things up, throwing them, grabbing movable objects or performing an miscellaneous attack (dependent on the playable character) when deemed appropriate towards the situation

* In one area, Sonic could pick up an object for a quick puzzle in a level, and in another, Sonic could be near a trail of rings and press this extra button to use the Ring Dash to reach areas only he can reach. For an example for another character, this button could be used by Tails to hack into an electronic door that is too tough for Knuckles to punch, leading to a Tails-specific area.

10) Sonic's grinding mechanics are pretty much unchanged from Sonic Unleashed, using the boost button to boost, although to the speeds of this particular hypothetical game, and the secondary button being used to advance forward, like in Heroes, though the usefulness of this ability should be questioned.

* Either the quick-step buttons or the analog stick can be used to switch rails.

* If the quick-step buttons are used, the analog stick should be used to keep balance, in a similar fashion to Sonic Adventure 2.

11) As for the wall-jump, I feel that this ability is best kept for 2D sections, although in 3D, it alternatively could turn into the triangle-jump from Sonic Heroes. This ability would be restricted to certain characters like Sonic or Shadow, while characters like Tails or Knuckles would be without it, although Knuckles does have climbing mechanics.

The thing to keep in mind here is that while this seems complicated as all-get-out, when you implement the scheme to their controllers and play it for yourself, it should feel natural. Sonic is touted for being easy to pick up and play, and I believe this should be preserved, but assigning multiple actions to 4 face buttons, 2 shoulder bumpers and 2 triggers could still feel natural and uncomplicated. This is something I would need to have a working game in front of me to properly test.

Until then, here is where these moves will be implemented, using an X-box 360 controller as a reference:

D-Pad: none, perhaps menu control

Analog sticks:

Left: Movement

Right: Camera control

Face buttons:

A: Jump/Air action

B: Crouch/Roll

X: Primary attack/Boost

Y: Grab/Toss/Carry/Extra attack

Shoulder buttons:

Triggers: Drifting

Bumpers: Quick-step

Combinations:

A+B: Quick-stomp

B+B: Secondary attack

A+X: Depends on the character, for Sonic, he would do a quick air dash, ala target-less homing attack in the Adventure games/While moving quickly, boosting in the air, ala Colors

Movement+Crouch: Slow Metroid-style rolling

These can be translated over to a PS3 controller, as for the Wii's Nunchuck+Wiimote combination, this is harder to work around, although it is possible:

Re-map the drift to a boost+analog stick turning combination at a sharp angle, ala Sonic Colors

B trigger would be the boosting and primary attack

Z trigger would be the rolling and secondary attack

The D-Pad's left and right directions could be the quick-step, still feeling natural

Holding C, and then moving the Wiimote around could equate camera control, but ONLY when holding C.

For the extra button, the down button on the D-pad would be best, at least it would be more favorable than waggle control.

A and the analog stick is unchanged.

When using a classic controller (Pro, preferably) or a Gamecube controller (which would be even more preferable) most of the X-box 360 control scheme would be ported right over, with the exception of the drift, being re-purposed for the Colors method, and quick-stepping being re-mapped to the trigger (for Gamecube, since it doesn't have bumpers) or the bumpers (for classic controller since it doesn't have triggers, and would be the same as Pro, to keep things mildly consistent for the "Nintendo" method of drifting).

This is how I'd do it.

- - - - -

That's a lot, I know, but I really put a lot of thought into this. ^____^;

What do you fella's have in mind? Do you have any complaints or issues with this? Before you knock on complexity, please be reminded that there can be a button for everything, yet it could still feel natural.

Discuss!!

EDIT: Crap, none of my formatting for the detailed listing made it through! Crap! D:

Edited February 25, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[The Weeb with No Name]

Can't say yay or nay until I played it, but everything seems fundamentally sound.

[Core]

Seems alright for the most part.

However, I think they are too many moves. I don't really see the point of the Quick Step and Drifting: in both Unleashed and Colors, those two moves had to be used in very specific places, and were useless everywhere else (especially in Colors, where you couldn't even use them). In Unleashed, I think you didn't have to use those moves if you decided to run without boosting. The games could do without those moves if the controls at high speed were better.

Also:

* Ala Sonic Colors, tapping the jump button twice will result in different actions depending on the situation

- Around enemies or other targets, it will function as the homing attack, necessary for accurate platforming in a 3D space

- Otherwise, implement a double jump mechanic, to allow a way to platform easier

A Double Jump à la Colors to "allow a way to platform easier", would be useless if the levels were designed properly (no tiny platforms like in Colors).

Even assuming the Double Jump is useful, as I've learned from Colors, mapping the Homing Attack and the Double Jump on the same button is a bad idea. The Jump Dash from the Adventure games made more sense because it's similar to the Homing Attack, only without a target. If you really want to keep the Double Jump, you should put the Homing Attack on another button (maybe the same as the Boost, but in that case, you should probably remove the Air Boost).

Sonic is touted for being easy to pick up and play, and I believe this should be preserved, but assigning multiple actions to 4 face buttons, 2 shoulder bumpers and 2 triggers could still feel natural and uncomplicated.

I don't really agree with this... I do think using so many buttons make the controls complicated. At least more than they need to be.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Core

[Blacklightning]

* If necessary, for other characters, rather than a spindash, another secondary move could be implemented when standing still. An example would be Silver's psychic shock attack seen in Sonic 2006, which was necessary to pick up enemy robots if projectiles couldn't be hurled back at them. This doesn't necessarily mean the character cannot roll when in motion, but it eliminates the spindash from their move list, making it Sonic-specific.

Depending on the character, they need not be able to roll at all, just be able to perform a certain type of move that fits in the same category (ie: method of movement that kills things along the way). Say for example, instead of rolling you could give Silver a moving psychic shock, kinda like his wierd teleporting move only it stuns people along the way. So while it's not exactly the same thing as rolling or spindashing, it maintains consistency between characters by way of similar expectations of movement and attack options - so you effectively give characters some more unique options without making their learning curves too seperate from one another.

5) The quick-step should be kept in order to move out of the way of obstacles without sacrificing momentum

The main issue I have with the quick step is that ST feels the need to assign seperate button mappings for it, which isn't really necessary at all. Anyone who's ever played an Unreal Tournament game can attest that double-tapping in a certain direction is more than adequete for a "move this way immediately" kind of manuever, and honestly, Sonic shouldn't be any different. The only other problem I have is that it enforces the idea of linear "lane-based" running, which is kind of boring, let's face it. If they can make a Quick Step that can detect an incoming obstacle and dodge juuuuuuust enough to avoid running into it, you could pretty much ditch the idea of those kinds of auto-guided paths entirely.

6) The above applies to the drifting mechanic as well

Whatever constitutes as "drifting" should be as simple as slowing down and using the better low speed handling to negotiate the tighter turns. There's no need to enforce a seperate mechanic for it, and it just reinforces the assumption that Sonic should play like a car. Considering you've mentioned an insta-speed move anyway (the boost), you could alternatively just slow down, reorient yourself to a more beneficial angle to make the curve, then boost off again, Zero Gravity style.

[Core]

Anyone who's ever played an Unreal Tournament game can attest that double-tapping in a certain direction is more than adequete for a "move this way immediately" kind of manuever, and honestly, Sonic shouldn't be any different.

Did you play with a keyboard, though? I don't know if I've ever tried double-tapping with an analog stick, but I'm under the impression that it would be rather awkward.

[Blacklightning]

Did you play with a keyboard, though? I don't know if I've ever tried double-tapping with an analog stick, but I'm under the impression that it would be rather awkward.

What on earth gives you that impression? Tapping twice in one direction isn't particularly difficult or out of the ordinary.

[Core]

Maybe I'm just weird, but it feels a bit counter-intuitive to me. Because instead of having a direction pressed or not, there is some distance between the center and the edge, and I feel an analog stick is not meant to be used like this.

After trying it out a bit, I find that depending on where the stick is on the controller and what direction I choose, it's not always comfortable to do.

[Indigo Rush]

All very good points. It may have been helpful if I had taken the time to explain how levels would be designed, particularly in a fashion where some of the moves would be useful. It wouldn't be like Colors where they could only be activated when the level calls for it, and using these moves at different times could have different results, depending on the situation, of course. An example is that drifting, while useful to make tight corners, could help in a branching path:

Imagine that there is a straight road that then has a road that branches to a near-90 degree turn, if you're travelling at a relatively brisk pace, rather than losing all of your speed, you drift to make the turn. Perhaps drifting could function similarly to how it worked in Riders, slowing down then bursting forward with some good speed. If we did take out the trigger-to-drift mechanic altogether, boosting and turning sharply could result in a drift. I'm a little more open with how it would be initiated, but I feel that the drift is a necessary move if you are going to travel at relatively brisk paces.

As for the quick-step:

I believe did mention (I may be wrong, I did type that up at midnight) that it could double as an attack for enemies that are beside you, where a boost or roll won't really do much and taking the time to jump and attack would slow the action down: The quick-step's purpose is to not only avoid obstacles but can be used as a quick attack.

The key thing here is that the player doesn't actually want to slow down. If you've gained some good speed and want to keep it, having to slow down and make a turn or stop to attack enemies that are rushing beside you would kinda kill the mood. It's the sort of thing that Sonic and the Black Knight got criticism for. Having to slow down for something as simple as a turn or an enemy or obstacle in your way (or beside you) can ruin the flow. Imagine in Unleashed having to stop every few seconds... it's not very fun. These moves have their use when Sonic is at a reasonable speed, keep in mind, so it's not like you're going to end up using them all the time, but the levels should be designed to use them.

Additionally, the quick-step and drift are cool moves. Seeing Sonic dash from side-to-side at a fast pace and placing his hand on the ground and making a tight turn feels really satisfying somehow. Perhaps this is one of those opinion-related things, but when I played Sonic Unleashed, these moves felt natural and fun.

To address the double-jump vs. air dash, I can't argue with you there. I suppose if the jump did properly carry momentum, its use is kind of questionable. All I know is that the double jump/homing attack combination was universally liked, whereas the air dash frustrated some people. If people would rather have the air dash, then I'm perfectly fine with it in there, to be honest. For other characters though, it needs to be a different move, no doubt. I was kind of thinking Shadow could have the air dash while Sonic could have the double jump, making Shadow a little more difficult to platform with, giving him a sense of recklessness in his control, whereas Sonic seems a little more focused. Perhaps switching these around may in fact better match their personalities, with Sonic's no-questions-just-go attitude and Shadow's more reserved tendencies.

As for the rolling being taken out for one character or another, I would have to disagree, as the rolling mechanic is the third most important mechanic in the classic games. I'm actually a little surprised anyone would ask to have it taken out. Well, if a character such as Omega or Amy were made playable, the roll would be less feasible. This argument doesn't really hold water though, because if we have Sonic Heroes to go by, everyone was able to curl into a ball, leaving no excuse for them to not be able to do it again. Rolling is the mechanic that the more seasoned fans will appreciate the return of above all else, and to have a character like Knuckles or Tails have it removed, when having displayed the ability to utilize it in Sonic Adventure, (pressing the action button while mobile) a 3D game, it would likely bother people.

That's how I see it, anyway.

EDIT: And I agree with Core on the double-tapping for the quick-step issue. From what I played in Colors, it didn't feel particularly as comfortable as I would have liked it. I think bumpers or triggers are the ideal thing, here.

As for the inevitable complexity criticism, think of it like this:

When you're not travelling fast, you play like Sonic Adventure, and when you are travelling fast, you play like Sonic Colors/Unleashed. There are some added variety to the moves and the addition of the rolling mechanic, but aside from that, that's basically what you're getting here.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Krishaa]

It seems fine, but I still don't really see the point of the spindash or an attack specific to the character other than fanservice and that alone. If Sonic can just boost to kill enemies, why would people even bother with the other moves? Boosting would be much more convenient for them.

What I'm thinking is why don't we make the boost like Sonic Unleashed for the Wii. Instead of the HD counterpart where boosting is all on one meter and there is free range in how much meter you use so you can simply refill it to maintain the boost, there are little bars that you fill and once you use the boost, you use it for a set amount of time and one of the bars disappears. And then we can do what they did in Colors for the regeneration of boosting.

[Indigo Rush]

It seems fine, but I still don't really see the point of the spindash or an attack specific to the character other than fanservice and that alone. If Sonic can just boost to kill enemies, why would people even bother with the other moves? Boosting would be much more convenient for them.

That's the sort of thing that depends on who you're playing as. For Sonic specifically, it'd be the spindash simply because it's his signature move. For another character, this can become a way to access a different area or to supplement their main ability. For Knuckles, this can activate his digging function, which may as well mirror that of Sonic Colors' Yellow Drill powerup, with some control differences, perhaps. For Silver, this could be his psychic shock attack that allows him to pick up enemies with his other move. It depends on the character entirely. Otherwise, if we want to leave out possible branching paths restricted to one character or another, then it wouldn't be necessary. However, I feel that each character should have a way to access an area that another can't, and this is one of those ways.

What I'm thinking is why don't we make the boost like Sonic Unleashed for the Wii. Instead of the HD counterpart where boosting is all on one meter and there is free range in how much meter you use so you can simply refill it to maintain the boost, there are little bars that you fill and once you use the boost, you use it for a set amount of time and one of the bars disappears. And then we can do what they did in Colors for the regeneration of boosting.

That works perfectly fine in the context of boosting alone. What I was thinking is that the bar functions for more than one thing, though. In addition to the boost, it also interacts with, say, Tails' flight meter, Silver's psychic powers, etcetera. It's similar to Sonic 2006 in this way, but if this were pertaining to the boost alone, then your idea is perfectly reasonable.

[Chooch]

I've posted this several times, but it's relevant, so I'm just going to copy/paste it:

A - Jump/Homing Attack

B - Crouch/Stomp/Spin Dash

X - Boost

Y - Light Speed Dash

LT/RT - Sonic Drift

LB/RB - Quick Step/Change Target

Now to explain:

Homing Attack is back onto the A button because if there's one thing that Sonic Unleashed taught me, it's that boost and homing attack should not be on the same button. It's a recipe for disaster in most cases.

Another thing you'll notice is that I have Spin Dash mapped onto the same button as crouch. That's because instead of doing an incredibly pointless breakdance kick when you tap the button in quick succession, you'll go into a Spin Dash. The Spin Dash has use because like in your control scheme, you aren't invincible when you boost and can't just tear through everyone by running into them. You spin into them while boosting by pressing the crouch button once you build up enough speed. The more speed you have, the stronger the attack, etc.

Now, this may be hard to explain, but the boost button isn't exactly just a boost button. I think I can speak for a lot of people when I say that typically when Sonic reaches close to max speed he becomes a bit of a nuisance to control. I also think there's an issue with Sonic having too much momentum when he's simply walking. This is my idea help remedy that.

The boost button isn't just for increasing speed right then and there but it also regulates how fast Sonic will go. Sonic doesn't need to go really really fast all the time so when you're boosting and come to a part when you might need to slow down (or even screech to a halt) it becomes a problem in the current Sonic games. Take this example:

Say when you first start the level up you're running at a decent speed. Not max speed but pretty fast. If you want to let it all out and go crazy fast you tap the boost button. Need to slow down? Tap the boost button again. Basically, it puts on/releases a cap on how fast you can go. If you suddenly want to screech to a halt while boosting then you hold down the boost button and Sonic will try and slow down as quickly as he can. It's more of a 'Speed Regulation' button than anything, but Boost just sounds simpler.

Quick Step and Sonic Drift are pretty self-explanatory, but then there's the change target command mapped on to same buttons as Quick Step. Change target is specifically for homing attacking in the air. Homing attack may target the wrong enemy by default so those buttons are there to possibly help you if you're ever in that situation.

I also had an idea for a more combat oriented mode of sorts for stronger enemies that you wouldn't want to mindless homing attack a million times in order to kill that you could toggle with a tap on the directional pad. Think Sonic Heroes' switching from speed to power formation but less.. terrible and button-mashy.

There's noticeable overlap with Indigo's control scheme and explanations, which makes me seem less insane, so I'm glad.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Chooch

[Kuzu]

I think the "Pick up/Throw" feature should go to Knuckles, if only because it gives him something to work with.

[Rusty Spy]

Sonic's turning sensitivity and radius is altered depending on speed. The slower you're travelling, the more tight and precise your turns are, making platforming less of a hassle

This is something that I've always wondered about. Is it not possible for the turning sensitivity when running at high speeds to be able to accommodate turning sharply? The way Sonic controlled when running fast in Colors was a dream, but I always felt I should be able to make sharper turns if I tilted the control stick more.

Even at max speed, if I tilted the control stick 90 degrees, is it not possible to allow Sonic to turn that sharply without sacrificing tight control?

It seems fine, but I still don't really see the point of the spindash or an attack specific to the character other than fanservice and that alone. If Sonic can just boost to kill enemies, why would people even bother with the other moves? Boosting would be much more convenient for them.

This is why I always preferred the boost mechanic from Advance 2.

copy-pasta from old topic:

-The boost from Sonic Advance 2/3. Personally, I believe that this is the perfect type of boost to implement into a Sonic game. It's activated via running at top speed for an extended period and deactivates if you drop below a certain speed, is affected by momentum, in terms of how quickly it may activate, as well as how it works in that it conforms to the same physics as running normally, and most importantly, it isn't over powered. For one, it can't be activated at anytime, and it doesn't grant invincibility, meaning that boosting requires some amount of skill to keep activated, in that you need to properly avoid obstacles and keep your speed up. Not only does this leave rolling as a useful move to use to bash down enemies without sacrificing speed, it also leaves room to use the spindash as a means of speeding up. Also, one feature that's very interesting is that a boost pad instantly activates the boost for you. What this does is it gives boost pads a significant use, and with how potent the boost is, only one is really needed whenever the game wants you to speed up, allowing them to not have to be overused so much.

Much like the jump dash that Tornado mentioned, it feels like a natural progression of Sonic's moveset, and doesn't overshadow all of Sonic's other moves.

I'll be perfectly honest, the boost Indigo proposes sounds a little overly complicated for something that can easily be made simpler and serve the same basic purpose.

Also, I don't believe the spindash and rolling in general is "just for fanservice alone". It's pretty much Sonic's main form of attacking on the ground and frankly it should be treated as such.

Activated when standing still, taking time to charge with the energy gauge, the spindash is initially more powerful than the boost, although control is completely nonexistent as long as Sonic is boosting forward.

[...]

Rather than boost Sonic forward, Sonic turns into a rolling pinball, at the mercy of the terrain, and perhaps the opposing force of player input (holding the analog stick in the opposing direction will slow him down, moving left or right will change direction slightly)

This is something I don't like. We aren't playing 2D games anymore. Removing that much control in a 3D environment is just a terrible idea and greatly restricts the roll's general usefulness. Sonic should have full control when rolling, maybe even more ala Adventure 1/2, being able to make sharp 90 degree turns on a dime. While terrain should still have a major impact on Sonic's direction and speed, he should be able to actually maneuver around when rolling.

As for the wall-jump, I feel that this ability is best kept for 2D sections, although in 3D, it alternatively could turn into the triangle-jump from Sonic Heroes. This ability would be restricted to certain characters like Sonic or Shadow, while characters like Tails or Knuckles would be without it, although Knuckles does have climbing mechanics.

This is another thing I've always wondered about.

In theory, in a 3D environment, would it not be possible to hold forward/backward to perform a triangle jump, and left/right to jump upwards to do a wall-jump? And additionally, leaving the stick neutral does a triangle jump in place without moving.

[Ekajra]

I like Chooch's button layout, though I don't really think the Quick Step is necessary. Since the Wii (using a Gamecube controller) only has one pair of triggers/bumpers/whatever, having seperate drift/quick step buttons would make it a bit harder to port. I also don't really think the Quick Step is a completely necessary mechanic either. It does make the 3D sections feel more linear, and if it is used it should be in certain sections of levels designed for it. You could really just put the Drift and Quick Step on the same buttons. If you're going straight and tap it you do a quick step. If you hold it and turn, drift. Fairly simple, wouldn't take long to learn at all.

I'm not really the biggest fan of boost, though I think they definitely did it better in Colors than Unleashed. The problems with boost are more level design issues than control issues. As long as they don't make it that you can pretty much just boost through an entire level, and they make you have to actually use it wisely or else you just waste it, I'd be okay with it. But I would like to see a return of the spindash/somersault, and I think mapping it to the same button as a crouch would work. You tap it quick and there's either a little roll (such as in SA2) or you do a slide (such as in Colors, which I actually think looks cooler and would make it more obvious of a difference from the spindash). But then, if you just hold it down you start to build up a spindash like in the Adventure games.

But as far as Sonic's running controls I think the one thing they need to fix is controlling Sonic when he's going slower. Unleashed and Colors focused so much on speed that it's rather difficult to control Sonic when he's moving slowly. I thought Colors definitely improved over Unleashed, but it wasn't perfect. I'm sure it can't be that hard just to program it so that when Sonic is moving slower he doesn't jump as far or as quick. You know, momentum and all that... oh, what's it called? Physics? Yeah, that sounds right, we should get some of that.

[Phos]

First off, I'd like to mention that mapping something to a double tap of something else should really only be something you do if you're using more buttons than you really wanted to, especially when we're talking about something like a dodge move. A double tap is more fatiguing and takes longer than a single button press, and it introduces a new source of false positives. It's also the reason why I can't enjoy Mischief Makers.

The quickstep doesn't really do anything outside of areas made specifically for it, so it's a wash straight away (zero depth). The drift... why not just have the drift's extra turning power (and animation if you really want it) just be on the left stick?

Even as early as Sonic 1, Sonic could defend himself without having to slow down. You just needed to do a short hop or a jump early to land on the enemy.

I personally see a more homogeneous control scheme as the way to go, a more nonmodal interface would make the game flow better. Obviously we've got the crouch/roll button, and then I'd probably also go with a "charge" button that on its own charges up a super peel out, but while crouching charges a spin dash, and if it turns out that it needs it, a bit of float while in the air. Oh, and you press A to jump.

The roll button works in the air and can also unroll you while on the ground. The Super Peel Out can be initiated while moving (you start slowing down during the charge), but the spin dash functions at a halt only.

Bottom Button: jump

Right button: crouch/roll

Top button: Charge

Left button: Also crouch/roll

The conversation gets a bit more complex when basic movement is brought up. Whenever you have a character that accelerates gradually, they also need to turn gradually or else you have Sonic 06's controls. I would personally have typical smoothing (that is, Sonic responds to turns quickly but not instantaneously) within a wide turning radius, but if an attempt is made to turn more sharply, Sonic will turn but will scrub off speed, similar to a typical ski turn.

Sonic Unleashed's turning controls almost remind of a driving game, where the driver doesn't turn the wheel as sharply at high speeds.

[Scar]

First off, I'd like to mention that mapping something to a double tap of something else should really only be something you do if you're using more buttons than you really wanted to, especially when we're talking about something like a dodge move. A double tap is more fatiguing and takes longer than a single button press, and it introduces a new source of false positives. It's also the reason why I can't enjoy Mischief Makers.

The quickstep doesn't really do anything outside of areas made specifically for it, so it's a wash straight away (zero depth). The drift... why not just have the drift's extra turning power (and animation if you really want it) just be on the left stick?

Even as early as Sonic 1, Sonic could defend himself without having to slow down. You just needed to do a short hop or a jump early to land on the enemy.

I personally see a more homogeneous control scheme as the way to go, a more nonmodal interface would make the game flow better. Obviously we've got the crouch/roll button, and then I'd probably also go with a "charge" button that on its own charges up a super peel out, but while crouching charges a spin dash, and if it turns out that it needs it, a bit of float while in the air. Oh, and you press A to jump.

The roll button works in the air and can also unroll you while on the ground. The Super Peel Out can be initiated while moving (you start slowing down during the charge), but the spin dash functions at a halt only.

Bottom Button: jump

Right button: crouch/roll

Top button: Charge

Left button: Also crouch/roll

The conversation gets a bit more complex when basic movement is brought up. Whenever you have a character that accelerates gradually, they also need to turn gradually or else you have Sonic 06's controls. I would personally have typical smoothing (that is, Sonic responds to turns quickly but not instantaneously) within a wide turning radius, but if an attempt is made to turn more sharply, Sonic will turn but will scrub off speed, similar to a typical ski turn.

Sonic Unleashed's turning controls almost remind of a driving game, where the driver doesn't turn the wheel as sharply at high speeds.

Unleashed is a good place to start really. Well, the HD version.

It factors in all the necessary momentum calculations (air boost has inertia, heck even the regular boost as inertia). The only thing that needed work really was the turning. They just need to, as Phos said above, just make the drift and its animation automatic when turning sharply, whilst also taking into account Sonic's relative speed. I.e the faster he's going, the larger is turning circle will be....just not too large.

I really despised how twitchy SA2's controls were. Yes they were tight, but at high speeds you could turn 90 degrees on a dime, which just doesn't feel right. It doesn't flow very well. This problem was only augmented in 06.

[Diogenes]

I personally see a more homogeneous control scheme as the way to go, a more nonmodal interface would make the game flow better. Obviously we've got the crouch/roll button, and then I'd probably also go with a "charge" button that on its own charges up a super peel out, but while crouching charges a spin dash, and if it turns out that it needs it, a bit of float while in the air. Oh, and you press A to jump.

The roll button works in the air and can also unroll you while on the ground. The Super Peel Out can be initiated while moving (you start slowing down during the charge), but the spin dash functions at a halt only.

Do you really need both the spindash and the peel out if you can roll and unroll on command?

[Rusty Spy]

The conversation gets a bit more complex when basic movement is brought up. Whenever you have a character that accelerates gradually, they also need to turn gradually or else you have Sonic 06's controls. I would personally have typical smoothing (that is, Sonic responds to turns quickly but not instantaneously) within a wide turning radius, but if an attempt is made to turn more sharply, Sonic will turn but will scrub off speed, similar to a typical ski turn.

So it IS possible? Well why not the hell just do that?

[Phos]

Do you really need both the spindash and the peel out if you can roll and unroll on command?

It simplifies things to where the player doesn't have to spindash and then unroll whenever they want to get running like that. Having a semiredundent option like that also gives the player a choice as to how to do things.

So it IS possible? Well why not the hell just do that?

Yep, and I guess because it's hard or something. Maybe having good controls makes the game too easy?

Edited February 26, 2011 by Phos

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

11) As for the wall-jump, I feel that this ability is best kept for 2D sections, although in 3D, it alternatively could turn into the triangle-jump from Sonic Heroes. This ability would be restricted to certain characters like Sonic or Shadow, while characters like Tails or Knuckles would be without it, although Knuckles does have climbing mechanics.

I don't particularly think so. 3D is more open to have the character be less vertically challenged with the wall-jump and I feel it should be used even in 3D.

I don't think we should limit Sonic and Shadow to a triangle-jump like in Heroes unless they can go up and down as much as they can left and right when jumping from wall to wall. It's really a case of tilting the control stick in the direction you want to gain altitude from after launching off the wall in a standard case. It's a tricky one to solve for Sonic; Mario tends to use his wall jump to go up, while Sonic in Heroes used it to go forward and then upwards in Unleashed. Fusing the two directions is something to be tested.

[Diogenes]

It simplifies things to where the player doesn't have to spindash and then unroll whenever they want to get running like that.

Adding a redundant move just to remove one button press really doesn't seem worth it.

Having a semiredundent option like that also gives the player a choice as to how to do things.

Yeah, one that's basically pointless.

[Indigo Rush]

I'll be perfectly honest, the boost Indigo proposes sounds a little overly complicated for something that can easily be made simpler and serve the same basic purpose.

How so? It seems perfectly simple to me.

All it does is puts you at top speed like in previous games, only it needs to be activated when you're already running. What's difficult about that?

This is something I don't like. We aren't playing 2D games anymore. Removing that much control in a 3D environment is just a terrible idea and greatly restricts the roll's general usefulness. Sonic should have full control when rolling, maybe even more ala Adventure 1/2, being able to make sharp 90 degree turns on a dime. While terrain should still have a major impact on Sonic's direction and speed, he should be able to actually maneuver around when rolling.

This I can agree with... mostly. I feel that if anything, his control should still be nerfed a bit when rolling, especially if he's rolling at a particularly fast pace.

As for the triangle jump vs. wall jump, I figured the wall jump should be 2D exclusive because in 3D, Sonic is better suited to move on a horizontal axis, due to the nature of the gameplay. I see no strong argument against having the wall jump as well, but I feel that we can't have both. How would you go about doing that? I'm curious, because I don't see a way to do that without adding an unnecessary layer of complexity to this.

[Rusty Spy]

As for the triangle jump vs. wall jump, I figured the wall jump should be 2D exclusive because in 3D, Sonic is better suited to move on a horizontal axis, due to the nature of the gameplay. I see no strong argument against having the wall jump as well, but I feel that we can't have both. How would you go about doing that? I'm curious, because I don't see a way to do that without adding an unnecessary layer of complexity to this.

As I already said in my post, tilt left and right to wall jump, forward and back to triangle jump.

[Carbo]

Personally I'm just curious why the inclusion of a boost is even necessary if you have the Spin Dash and want it to just work as an "instant-top speed" button since that's pretty much what the Spin Dash was always built to be. Assuming the design is implied to be more fleshed out akin to the Adventure games, boosts would just feel incredibly arbitrary and sort of unwieldly. I always saw it as cheap substitute which, kinda worked for a design like Unleashed. But I just can't see this work in a setting like this.

[azoo]

The Spindash is infinite times more versatile than the boost. That just has to be said. Even if you don't get instantaneous top speed that lives to Sonic's "fastest thing alive" mark, the Spindash is the most comfortable move to have for Sonic because it allows both slow and fast pacing seamlessly. Need a tiny push just to get under somewhere? Just tap once (or do a quick-release for a one-button dash). Want to blast off at insane speeds? Piano roll the jump button(s) (or hold the one-button dash for a long while). Did you start a dash accidentally while on a tiny platform over nothingness / a floor filled with hazards? Just press in the opposite direction really hard (or something) while charging your dash to slow Sonic's dash to a halt.

Yes, the Spindash doesn't get you to top speed instantaneously like the boost (since it requires charging and a standstill), but everything else the Spindash does trumps the boost, takes advantage of rolling physics, AND gives the same basic function of being mostly invulnerable at intense speeds. It practically makes the boost incredibly redundant, unless you of course go for the concept of "boost = easy to use, hard to master; spindash = inconvenient but easy to maneuver", which basically downplays the Spindash and puts the gameplay limelight on the boost.

Now, as for jumping mechanics:

I think this sums up my idea quite nicely. (I know the whole "badniks are as big if not bigger than Sonic" thing is in the most recent games, however jump mechanics are absolutely dreadful in Unleashed/Colors.)

Take note that the Instashield also deflects projectiles, works as a split-second shield (hence the name), and increases bounce height when timed properly. It's basically your average handy tool. Not really any homing attacks needed when you got this on your side...unless you use something so fast paced that you can't hit anything without it, like Unleashed or Colors. And if that's the case then the gameplay is set on a repetitive and shallow foundation of tapping A to wipe out every object onscreen. With homing attacks giving you an automatic blast into any badnik's face, and boosting giving you insta-Super Sonic mode (proof: Colors Super Sonic is just Sonic with a full boost gauge), there's no variation in attack methods, so enemies are basically stripped of having any strategy behind being destroyed. That's what turns badniks into sentient bowling pins.

Not saying I'm completely against the homing attack of course, just saying it cheapens gameplay between player and enemy. It will remain that way until someone thinks up an innovative and beneficial way for it to work, which would probably in turn make the move too complex for it's own good. That's why I refrain from that and attach to the idea of the Instashield and making enemies much bigger.

This is something I don't like. We aren't playing 2D games anymore. Removing that much control in a 3D environment is just a terrible idea and greatly restricts the roll's general usefulness. Sonic should have full control when rolling, maybe even more ala Adventure 1/2, being able to make sharp 90 degree turns on a dime. While terrain should still have a major impact on Sonic's direction and speed, he should be able to actually maneuver around when rolling.

I can somewhat get around this idea though. I've been playing alot of Marble Madness games and things like that, and I can't say I'd object to some platforming and maneuvering similar to that for Sonic.

Now, as for all these extra moves, I think it'd be best that they aren't kept in Sonic's arsenal at all times. Either you can assign to special powerups/element shields (double jump, homing attack, air boost, bound attack / stomp), or put it to where you manually can add them to Sonic's arsenal much like how SatSR did, but of course handled in a slightly more organized angle. But if you really want all these moves in-game at the same time, it's going to be overly complex and break that "simplicity complex" you were reminding yourself of, Indy. However I can say that I am fond of having a wall jump in Sonic's setup.

I am sorry if all my stuff comes off to same points (classic mechanics, sue me), but honestly it's the only way I can truly see Sonic work in 3D as a platformer enhanced by speed with the ball mechanics and simple setup. Otherwise it turns into something Sonic isn't.. or at least wasn't until recently.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Azukara