Sonic's Control Mechanics Idea Thread

[Badnik Zero]

To what Carbo said above, you're confusing top speed with constant speed. The spin dash gets you to top speed, but it's possible to slow down. The boost keeps you at top speed as long as you hold the button. Between the regular spin dash and boost is the Adventure spin dash, which you didn't have to slow down for. I prefer the Adventure dash actually.

For the topic, what you're saying is pretty agreeable Indigo, I just wonder if you've designed them for two games in one. It seems like some sections would play like Adventure and some sections would play like Colors, and that would lead to an Adv3 situation where you're not sure which moves are required in which level. It depends on level design.

What I'm unsure about is your double jump and your handling ideas. I think Sonic should handle nicely at all speeds and modes of movement, except requiring the drift at his top speeds. The double jump also presents problems if you're thinking of using momentum as a long jump of sorts. The double jump would end up countering Sonic's momentum, right?

I'm thinking maybe the spin-and-roll mechanic should be used primarily to dash off ramps. And for something the games haven't seen in a while, smashing through hidden bricks. I find the somersault repetitive when Sonic's spin should take things apart anyways. Relegating the spin dash to ramp and smash purposes gives it an edge over the more powerful boost. This is actually inspired by Sonic 4's uncurling, because there might be places you want to be airborne and not exposed. I'm unsure how I feel about the boost as an attack. It might work as an open-road version of the more close-quarters more acrobatic spin dash, but it might over power it, depending on the level design. Maybe the camera should center behind Sonic while boosting (feeling like Z-targeting from Zelda), to make it clear the move is for long distance straight running. Maybe that's what you mean by control limitations, that's my idea of it.

My homing attack would angle slightly downwards, requiring Sonic have slightly more height than the enemy he's attacking. I feel like it adds a dimension to play and works better as a platforming aid. Air dashing would angle towards the ground and cancel Sonic's momentum when it hit, taking some of the stomp's precision.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Dabnikz

[azoo]

Dabnikz, I understand that Spindashing can potentially slow down while boosting takes a specific speed. You gotta have your balance somehow, you know, which is why I favor such idea of Spindash > boost. However, I can understand choosing the SA mobile-Spindash in this situation, and if you were to use a slightly fast paced premise it would fare better. EDIT: lol, just realized you were talking to Carbo :v

OR, how about a retooling of the Super peelout. Have it function like the SA Spindash except with no invulnerability (except for maybe the impact of launching the dash). Then have it where it also works like the boost from Riders; where you hold said charge and Sonic slows down gradually until he's at a halt, and in this form he drifts and slides around while charging. Upon letting go you have a speed burst that you gained from said drifting. See? I just made a way to get intense speeds without interrupting forward movement, and also suits as a drift simultaneously.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Azukara

[Carbo]

To what Carbo said above, you're confusing top speed with constant speed. The spin dash gets you to top speed, but it's possible to slow down. The boost keeps you at top speed as long as you hold the button. Between the regular spin dash and boost is the Adventure spin dash, which you didn't have to slow down for. I prefer the Adventure dash actually.

This could easily be remedied with a function similar to the Adventure games that let's you roll out of the ball and resume running. It'd also substitute the super peel-out and the strategy would be way more streamlined and fluent. Instead of having to seperate the moves you can easily combine these and you could easily iron down the choice of going faster or just going safer since running won't protect you from incoming enemies.

[Rusty Spy]

I much preferred the (possibly unintentional) stall SA2's spindash had, wherein you had to hold the button for a second before Sonic starts charging, meaning that Sonic couldn't spam it like in SA1 gaining infinite speed.

OR, how about a retooling of the Super peelout. Have it function like the SA Spindash except with no invulnerability (except for maybe the impact of launching the dash). Then have it where it also works like the boost from Riders; where you hold said charge and Sonic slows down gradually until he's at a halt, and in this form he drifts and slides around while charging. Upon letting go you have a speed burst that you gained from said drifting. See? I just made a way to get intense speeds without interrupting forward movement, and also suits as a drift simultaneously.

As Carbo said above, simply spindashing mid run and uncurling is a much easier and more streamlined method, and is much less redundant.

As for intense speeds without sacrificing movement, the Advance 2 boost is probably the best compromise for those who like having a boost function and those who like using the spindash and rolling without it being redundant or underpowered.

Take note that the Instashield also deflects projectiles, works as a split-second shield (hence the name), and increases bounce height when timed properly. It's basically your average handy tool. Not really any homing attacks needed when you got this on your side...unless you use something so fast paced that you can't hit anything without it, like Unleashed or Colors. And if that's the case then the gameplay is set on a repetitive and shallow foundation of tapping A to wipe out every object onscreen. With homing attacks giving you an automatic blast into any badnik's face, and boosting giving you insta-Super Sonic mode (proof: Colors Super Sonic is just Sonic with a full boost gauge), there's no variation in attack methods, so enemies are basically stripped of having any strategy behind being destroyed. That's what turns badniks into sentient bowling pins.

To simply try and work with this idea, I'd say it just comes down to encouraging the player to attack with the normal jump/instashield more. The homing attack really just covers all bases really, in the event that you need to hit an enemy that is out of reach.

Thing is, I don't see the homing attack as something that's supposed to be innovative. Heck, it's conception wasn't meant for innovation, it was for control. I don't see a need to make it "fit in" with the other moves because it isn't exactly intrusive. When you don't have the kind of control you need, the HA is just a crutch. Give him that control and the HA acts as life insurance.

[azoo]

I much preferred the (possibly unintentional) stall SA2's spindash had, wherein you had to hold the button for a second before Sonic starts charging, meaning that Sonic couldn't spam it like in SA1 gaining infinite speed.

That's not a bad idea, and I think I like it over the SA1 method as well. Then again I think the only reason they did it that way in SA2 was to allow you to do that wretched somersault. <_>

As Carbo said above, simply spindashing mid run and uncurling is a much easier and more streamlined method, and is much less redundant.

Maybe so, but maybe it can be obtained in some powerup (ala SA1/SA2) in ways that it'd help reach below mentioned boost faster.

As for intense speeds without sacrificing movement, the Advance 2 boost is probably the best compromise for those who like having a boost function and those who like using the spindash and rolling without it being redundant or underpowered.

The other day I got the crew to code in a Sadv2 boost to Freerunner. It came out decent, but in level design where it's mostly a platforming and speed mix, it doesn't come off as all too useful. Maybe if the level design took a turn for downhill madness every once in a while? Then again all the classics did that at some point (specifically CPZ from Sonic 2) so I suppose it could really work right when taken advantage of.

To simply try and work with this idea, I'd say it just comes down to encouraging the player to attack with the normal jump/instashield more. The homing attack really just covers all bases really, in the event that you need to hit an enemy that is out of reach.

Thing is, I don't see the homing attack as something that's supposed to be innovative. Heck, it's conception wasn't meant for innovation, it was for control. I don't see a need to make it "fit in" with the other moves because it isn't exactly intrusive. When you don't have the kind of control you need, the HA is just a crutch. Give him that control and the HA acts as life insurance.

I believe what you say is true. Taking that in mind, we could emphasize that the Instashield is Sonic's main handytool and keep the homing attack in a nerfed sort of state (one that only aims in the direction and height in which Sonic's jump is currently at); so if you need to reach enemies that are just that far away you use the Instashield, and if say, you are falling and you want to make sure you don't miss hitting that badnik in your descent (like if you wanted to bounce really high or something) you have a close range homing attack to use.

[Rusty Spy]

The other day I got the crew to code in a Sadv2 boost to Freerunner. It came out decent, but in level design where it's mostly a platforming and speed mix, it doesn't come off as all too useful. Maybe if the level design took a turn for downhill madness every once in a while? Then again all the classics did that at some point (specifically CPZ from Sonic 2) so I suppose it could really work right when taken advantage of.

I think this kind of boost is best complimented by a mix between Unleashed/Colors type level design, mainly in the obstacle course-like variety. Short ledges, walls to be jumped, slid under, or dodged, as well as enemies, all offer up sufficient challenge to players boosting at those speeds.

The level design would need........ not less platforming per-say, but the kind that is more fluent and gives players, mainly speedrunners, opportunity to make daring sprints over the perilous chasms while attempting to retain the boost mode.

Of course, that's not to say the boost is meant to be used a lot throughout the game, as the way it was used in Adv2 and 3 was more of a passive ability that encouraged players to dodge obstacles while keeping their speed up. Levels can still be focused on platforming, but the boost simply makes those speed sections all the more thrilling, and entices players to retain that speed for as long as possible.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Black Spy

[Phos]

This is something I don't like. We aren't playing 2D games anymore. Removing that much control in a 3D environment is just a terrible idea and greatly restricts the roll's general usefulness. Sonic should have full control when rolling, maybe even more ala Adventure 1/2, being able to make sharp 90 degree turns on a dime. While terrain should still have a major impact on Sonic's direction and speed, he should be able to actually maneuver around when rolling.

I think it's kind of important to limit control while in rolling mode to make sure it really feels like you are rolling rather than just using a different animation. Plus, directional control with no speed control is going to feel kinda weird. Remember, also, how twitchy the ball form was in Adventure.

Adding a redundant move just to remove one button press really doesn't seem worth it.

Well, first of all, the spin dash doesn't send you at full speed (The peel out does), and my version of the peel out can be started while under way (sort of like the SA 2 spindash), the spin dash requires Sonic to be at a halt. I am thinking about a different layout that would shave the number of distinct buttons down to two. Eh well, three buttons are probably few enough, but I would prefer to use less than Mario.

[Diogenes]

Well, first of all, the spin dash doesn't send you at full speed (The peel out does), and my version of the peel out can be started while under way (sort of like the SA 2 spindash), the spin dash requires Sonic to be at a halt.

I see no reason not to just make the spindash act like that, if it's worth having.

I am thinking about a different layout that would shave the number of distinct buttons down to two. Eh well, three buttons are probably few enough, but I would prefer to use less than Mario.

Bah, arbitrary button restrictions. Games should use as many buttons as they need, no more, no less.

[Gamenerd]

Three button control scheme all up in this bitch:

• 2 Button: Jump, doublejump/airslash thingy (with a much bigger radius than in Sonic 3), walljump, extra mid-air abilities depending on shields. Basically the 2 button is all about various jump functions as is to be expected.
  
• 1 Button: crouch, roll when running, whilst held down Sonic crouches/turns into a ball. In this mode he can sort of slowly roll around ala Monkey Ball or Marble Madness, with more limited control than Sonic on foot. Pressing the 2 Button whilst also crouched/rolling does a SA1/SA2 (a bit of lag might do it good) style spindash, mimicking the old games and their "down+C" kind of functionality. In midair the 1 Button would cause Sonic to curl/uncurl, as uncurled Sonic can perform functions like landing on Badniks without killing them, and riding them ala Sonic CD. 1 would also serve a few other minor functions such as the light dash, should they be included.
  
• Trigger Button: Trigger Camera Control like the Zelda series. refocuses the Camera behind Sonic, or if a badnik is close by, alter the camera and Sonics direction to be on the same axis as the enemy for ease of jumping on them/spindashing into them.
  

This, with SA1/Mario esque controls, tightening up with each plateau of running speed he reaches, so that when he reaches a Sonic Advance 2 autoboost speed he controls as tightly as fullspeed Sonic in Colours/Unleashed. Does this not fulfill all the functions Sonic needs? He can jump, airslash, walljump, duck, roll, spindash Adventure-series style, refocus the camera, lock axis' with an enemy (rendering the homing attack redundant) and even do extravagant things like leisurely roll around Marble Madness-style and land on badniks like in the Sonic CD cinematics, all with three buttons. Not to toot my own horn but I don't see it being possible to make Sonic's moveset any more intuitive and simple in 3D without either removing functionality, adding lots more buttons or mapping loads of unnecessary functions onto the buttons.

It's not much different to the SA/SA2 control scheme save for the removal of the homing attack, and addition of more versatile roll options and the camera button idea. I mean I personally like the Homing Attack, but this is the next best thing in terms of 3D, since you all find the attack to be awful or unnecessary.

Also, not strictly intended for Wiimote as I imagine analogue would be important - those button names were just examples.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Gamenerd

[Indigo Rush]

I love all of your ideas, but I can think one or two things I'd do differently:

Activating the spindash by tapping the 1 button twice rapidly, then holding the charge. I know that the crouch+jump button makes sense, but consider the placement of your thumb on a controller... if there was one move I found hard to utilize was Knuckles' dig ability in SA1, because you had to press two face buttons at the same time. I often had to remove my index finger from the top of the controller to compensate for the awkwardness. Tapping the crouch button twice while standing still would solve this issue, although it'd mean the spindash is charged by holding, rather than rapid tapping, and I don't know how you feel about that.

The second thing is the trigger control of locking on... I'm not convinced that this is necessary. It's an alright mechanic, nothing really bad about its inclusion in the slightest, but is it needed? I still think the homing attack should be kept instead of this.

Those aside, I like all that you've written here. This is actually the way to translate 2D Sonic into 3D without adding the boost, quickstep or drift. I'd like the quick stomp to be added in place of the uncurl ability, though. The quickstomp was fun. :V

EDIT: Also, you get 500 free internetz for the Marble Madness-style roll. I had thought of that and posted that, but no one commented on that. I was beginning to think I was crazy.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Gamenerd]

Oh I agree, I'd personally like the homing Attack, that moveset was devised purely for people who aren't a great fan of it.

My point does stand of course that if Sonic himself controls correctly, he needn't have more than 3 buttons mapped for the third dimension: a button for jump mechanics (including airshield, homing attack, wall jump or whatever the game may allow), a button for roll/ground/spindash mechanics, and a button for camera mechanics. Map the moves right and make him handle correctly and this general moveset idea speaks for itself. The Adventure games weren't far off getting it right really, but then they moved in a completely different direction controls wise from Heroes onwards, which is a shame.

EDIT: And also, I've been a big fan of the Marble Madness style idea for a while too, even if it's only for certain sections ;D I envisioned a game once where there were two playable characters, Sonic and a robotic E.G.G. Wentelteefje, with Sonic having a ball form to roll around in and the robot character having a wheel form to roll around in. I definately think some sort of freeform Monkey Ball-esque rolling is a natural progression of Sonic's old moveset, but in modern day Unleashed/Colours style I'm not sure how well it would fit.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Gamenerd

[Indigo Rush]

Oh I agree, I'd personally like the homing Attack, that moveset was devised purely for people who aren't a great fan of it.

My point does stand of course that if Sonic himself controls correctly, he needn't have more than 3 buttons mapped for the third dimension: a button for jump mechanics (including airshield, homing attack, wall jump or whatever the game may allow), a button for roll/ground/spindash mechanics, and a button for camera mechanics. Map the moves right and make him handle correctly and this general moveset idea speaks for itself. The Adventure games weren't far off getting it right really, but then they moved in a completely different direction controls wise from Heroes onwards, which is a shame.

EDIT: And also, I've been a big fan of the Marble Madness style idea for a while too, even if it's only for certain sections ;D I envisioned a game once where there were two playable characters, Sonic and a robotic E.G.G. Wentelteefje, with Sonic having a ball form to roll around in and the robot character having a wheel form to roll around in. I definately think some sort of freeform Monkey Ball-esque rolling is a natural progression of Sonic's old moveset, but in modern day Unleashed/Colours style I'm not sure how well it would fit.

[Phos]

I really think the quickstep and and the drift would be basically obsolete coupled with a control scheme that really puts the player in really good control. The drift in particular is just more turning power.

I don't think there's any particular need to set aside certain areas as area for Unleashed esque speed, not when you can pack in ways to do

for the player to find and then string together.

You can give the player a lot of room to do their own thing when the level isn't something akin to a hot wheels track.

I see no reason not to just make the spindash act like that, if it's worth having.

Are you suggesting that the spindash should send you at full speed or that it should be able to be started while under way? Having it send you at full speed would make it even more spammy than it already is, and having it startable while under way betrays the cartoon logic it's based on. And plus, you can just roll.

Bah, arbitrary button restrictions. Games should use as many buttons as they need, no more, no less.

I do this for new players primarily, but minimizing the number of unique buttons forces me to design mechanics that are fundamentally deeper because they have to do more.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Phos

[Indigo Rush]

The thing with Sonic having restricted control at higher speeds is because, well, have you ever had full control of Sonic when he's running real fast? Things start to get twitchy and glitchy and you'll find yourself running into stuff. The whole point of stiffening controls at higher speeds is, ironically, a better way of keeping control of Sonic.

It's not as if Sonic Team had a day where they each took different levels of amphetamines and narcotics, then made the decision that Sonic was going to have limited control because SPAM BOOST SPEED LOL, they had seriously thought everything out, tried everything, and came to the conclusion that limited control was better for the player.

When you're running at a fast pace, the best way to do this is to do it straight forward. Running around and making turns at 200 or so mph is kind of dangerous if you have precise controls. It's possible to program this in, but you'll end up getting the speed-shoe equivalent of Sonic 2006... not fun.

Keeping this in mind, the quick-step and drift suddenly make sense. If there is an area where you do need to dodge or make a sharp turn, these moves become your best friend. This isn't even factoring in the boost, mind you. The quick-step and drift can function as attacks on their own, even. And even if you didn't want these two moves, and didn't want obstacles in your way to give you a challenge while running fast, you'll just occasionally jump over some elevated plateaus, and that's what you're limiting 3D Sonic to.

Guys... that's boring as hell. The quick-step and drift are the only way to logically and properly control Sonic at high speeds. Not just because these moves are flashy, not just because they are fun, but because they are necessary.

If you want to have full control over a the fastest thing alive, be my guest. I hope you have reflexes like Spiderman!

[azoo]

Indigo, I have an answer to your troubles in finding good control at high speed.

Igneous.

This game features very smooth turning and maneuverability while taking on high speeds, and it does it quite smoothly. There's lots of action going on and tons of hazards and objects flying everywhere, but it doesn't hinder forward movement. These objects, instead of exactly harming you like in '06, you could use to run and jump off of, emphasizing the focus on physics and taking advantage of them in streamlined gameplay. Mix this with your Marble Madness / Super Monkey Ball ideas, take lots of inspiration from classic Sonic gameplay (downhill momentum, Spindash, busting badniks and etc.), and then give level design that has your standard slopes and hills and platforming... and we may have something here.

[Indigo Rush]

That was jaw-dropping. The only thing is that the character's turns are more of a side-to-side deal, which is something Sonic's always capable of, including Unleashed. I should have been more specific: turning sharply (see, 90 degrees) is something Sonic cannot do at these speeds, and if he did, he'd still run into stuff.

This video certainly made me question the necessity of the quick-step, but not the drift. And even so, the addition of a quick-step could still be useful for split second obstacles.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[azoo]

Well, you said Sonic's always had problems with side-to-side movement, which is apparent in nearly all 3D Sonics (SA1/SA2 it is incredibly so). Igneous fixes this problem rather smoothly.

Maybe for the faster Sonic goes, and with more context pressure on the analog stick (like, pressing hard left/right then the diagonal downleft/downright) Sonic will automatically go into drift mode? Sonic already does this in the HD Unleashed, it isn't snake-able (mostly), and it doesn't accelerate the player to unnecessary amounts.

I can also bet you that in one out of a hundred people I am the only one to realize that's in UnleashedHD.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Azukara

[Indigo Rush]

Well, you said Sonic's always had problems with side-to-side movement, which is apparent in nearly all 3D Sonics (SA1/SA2 it is incredibly so). Igneous fixes this problem rather smoothly.

Fair enough, my good man.

However, I want to point out something I only recently considered: turning side-to-side is not the same as sidestepping. One is like drawing a curve, the other is like a straight-edge. Lemme make a comparison:

You can compare a turn vs a quick-step in the same way you compare a walk to a dash. Both walking and running get you somewhere, but one method of travel is better for one situation than the other. In a similar fashion, both turning and quick-stepping change your direction, but while turning changes your direction entirely, quick-stepping keeps your focus on a specified path. There's less margin for error with the quick-step, but there can certainly be situations where turning from side-to-side will be more beneficial, for, say, a large obstacle that a quick-step can't quite get around.

Maybe for the faster Sonic goes, and with more context pressure on the analog stick (like, pressing hard left/right then the diagonal downleft/downright) Sonic will automatically go into drift mode?

It's certainly possible. I still feel though that we need to give players a large margin of error of control here. I mean, it's not hard to overshoot turning the analog stick a little too much. That's what mapping the drift to the triggers was all about.

[azoo]

Well, that'd be part of the skill behind it. Not like we'd pull a really jerkish move and make a long curve with no protection from falling to your death (ala Mazuri Act 2). Think of it like most drifting areas have railings on the side, which in turn make you grind at a moderate speed when contacting them; but getting better at keeping your drift would lead to faster and more satisfying results. Spagonia actually did this a couple of times throughout it's Acts.

As for sidestepping, how about getting enough forward speed, letting go of forward really quickly and tapping left or right, then resuming to holding forward? It's not as hard as it sounds, believe me.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Azukara

[Indigo Rush]

That just doesn't seem right. I'm not getting a good vibe with letting go of the analog stick and turning around like that after travelling at 300+ mph.

[Diogenes]

Are you suggesting that the spindash should send you at full speed or that it should be able to be started while under way? Having it send you at full speed would make it even more spammy than it already is, and having it startable while under way betrays the cartoon logic it's based on.

And this is all just as true if you call it the Super Peel-Out and give it a figure-8 running animation.

[azoo]

That just doesn't seem right. I'm not getting a good vibe with letting go of the analog stick and turning around like that after travelling at 300+ mph.

You talking of the "easter egg" drift from SUHD, or the sidestepping idea?

If you're talking drift, then I don't know why. It's a perfectly fine idea. It actually works much better than the drifting set to a button.

If you're talking sidestepping.. then yes I suppose I can understand. I can possibly still accept the bumper/shoulder-button controls for the Quick Step, but I'd say make more variety in it's movement; as in make it more of a strafe at slower speeds / when held, and at higher speeds / when quickly tapped it equates as a jolt to the left or right.

[Indigo Rush]

I was referring to the quick-step.

[Phos]

I get the impression that one or both of you are still designing with Unleashed style levels in mind and might not actually realize it. I say this because it seems like there's this idea that any misstep could result in major punishment. I'm of the mind that speed shouldn't be dangerous in a Sonic game.

And this is all just as true if you call it the Super Peel-Out and give it a figure-8 running animation.

The peel out has a charge time in order for it to do anything and it doesn't deliver instant acceleration, it takes a moment to really come into full effect. While I intend for it to be available while under way, doing so will still slow you down during the charge.

[azoo]

I'm trying to mend with his concepts basically. If my decision was truly expressed, then I'd just suggest SA1 movement with Igneous handling at high speeds. Honestly I only consider drifting and sidestepping for if the gameplay elements like what Indigo has in mind. Without Indy's mentality for the gameplay mechanics, I'd flat out say I believe Sonic doesn't need so much complex maneuverability because the entire playfield isn't a +300MPH obstacle course of death like Unleashed (or Colors to an extent). Just fast smooth turning ala Igneous would do Sonic good.