Sonic's Greatest Rival

[RootingForTheEmpire]

That's kind of an unnecessary way of making them get the point, don't cha think?

Well, no, not really. I more meant that the mention of massive egos in my post wasn't the main message. Just an element I like. I'm not trying to be offensive, and couldn't find a better way of conveying my thoughts. Me + the need to articulate = fail.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, if Shadow's abilities are debatable, he should be barred from discussion regarding speed-based rivalries until we come to a consensus.

I'm down with it.

Metal should be barred outright; Rocket boosters don't count.

And he's a villain out to kill him...

Although some would say that you could be a villain and a rival, which I couldn't argue against. But still Rocket Boosters are a no no.

[Diogenes]

Off-topic a bit, but this "feetses only!" thinking seems silly in its short-sightedness. It's the reason I facepalm whenever there's bitching over Sonic's use of a vehicle, and the reason I wonder why people don't give Jet the time of day but excuse Metal and Shadow despite the fact that they use rockets and hover skates respectively; They're not running either. xP

Well I think the real argument is that they should be judged on their own power, not on outside help. In Metal's case, his engine is built into him; it's as much a part of his body as his legs and feet. Shadow's harder to justify, as presumably his shoes aren't fused to his feet (then again, who knows what's going on under there). But, he's not being propelled by the air jets alone; he's skating, putting his own energy into it, and I'd guess most of it is his own (plus there's the question of what powers his shoes; if he's pumping his own chaos energy into it, they're not entirely outside help). With Jet, on the other hand...the hoverboard has the same top speed no matter who's on it, so it's not his speed in any sense.

[Indigo Rush]

Although using a hoverboard takes skill. Shouldn't that be a factor?

[Vertekins]

Game logic. If Sonic was able to do more than run around and homing attack, the boss fight would be too easy. You would literally be able to sit there and watch Sonic defeat the boss for you.

What?

Sonic is against you in that boss battle, not fighting Diablon alongside you. And as I said, he's one lame-ass 'Boss' because he doesn't do anything apart from running around like a dumbass, occasionally jumping or using homing attack and effectively helping you, his enemy, defeat the robot he's fighting alongside.

Honestly, was I the only one who was dumbfounded by how pathetic Sonic was in that boss battle? Nerfed to being a ridiculous way to Hoist Diablon by his own petard and to reinforce Shadow's badassery?

[Diogenes]

Although using a hoverboard takes skill. Shouldn't that be a factor?

It takes skill to control it. It doesn't take skill for it to go fast (aside from not falling off while it accelerates). Jet isn't contributing anything to the board going fast; that's all in the board itself. He certainly deserves credit for being an excellent Gear rider, but he doesn't deserve to be called "fast" any more than I do for being able to jump in my truck and floor it.

edit:

Honestly, was I the only one who was dumbfounded by how pathetic Sonic was in that boss battle? Nerfed to being a ridiculous way to Hoist Diablon by his own petard and to reinforce Shadow's badassery?

Honestly that's pretty much the whole game. "All Hail Shadow", peh. Edited March 7, 2011 by Diogenes

[Aquaslash]

and the reason I wonder why people don't give Jet the time of day but excuse Metal and Shadow despite the fact that they use rockets and hover skates respectively; They're not running either. xP

Edited March 7, 2011 by Aquaslash

[hebitaka]

So no awnsers for Shadow yet huh, I swore I would see more of his name pop up.

[Vertekins]

Now it's been years since I played that game, but if IIRC, that whole battle is:

>break up slag until you fill your dark gauge

>pick up gun

>shoot boss to death via infinite ammo.

In fact, I do believe that was EVERY fight

[Enraged Psycho]

Hmmm....

Defeating a nigh-omnipotent being while everyone else was paralyzed, then warping a giant comet in the path of a spacial planet-killing cannon, and in one fell stroke eradicating the remaining Black-Arms and saving everyone on the planet from certain annihilation.

That is quite the achievement, if you ask me. Certainly not "nothing" by any stretch.

But, he's not being propelled by the air jets alone; he's skating, putting his own energy into it, and I'd guess most of it is his own

Edited March 7, 2011 by Enraged Psycho

[Diogenes]

Hmmm....

Defeating a nigh-omnipotent being while everyone else was paralyzed, then warping a giant comet in the path of a spacial planet-killing cannon, and in one fell stroke eradicating the remaining Black-Arms and saving everyone on the planet from certain annihilation.

That is quite the achievement, if you ask me. Certainly not "nothing" by any stretch.

[Kuzu]

This is gonna turn into a flame war I can see it now.

As of now, I'd say its only Shadow & Jet if only because they're the only ones who still are antagonist to Sonic nowadays.

But what does any of this have to do with being a rival?

[Nepenthe]

But Jet proclaims that whoever gets to the top of Crimson Tower first takes the title of Fastest Creature in the Universe. They're using Extreme Gear. Not their own bodies. So Jet's proclamation should be more like "Fastest Gear in the Universe" and/or possibly "Best Gear Rider", not fastest creature in the universe.

[hebitaka]

Honestly the strongest character after Sonic himself is should be Sonic's greatest rival, which is Shadow.

[Enraged Psycho]

But what does any of this have to do with being a rival?

Edited March 7, 2011 by Enraged Psycho

[Diogenes]

The fact that they still fight each other even after Shadow is good?

[Enraged Psycho]

When?

Also being great and a rival does not make one a great rival.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Enraged Psycho

[Nepenthe]

At least with Shadow, there is at least some effort required. Even so, using mechanical assistance doesn't invalidate someone as a rival. That type of mentality is foolish. Shadow and Sonic share a rivalry, and a strong one at that, irregardless of how "Unskilled" his method of locomotion is considered to be.

Understand that my position is not that mechanical assistance invalidate the status of a rivalry, but that Jet isn't the only one who uses it, ergo the naysayers of that particular rivalry must also dismiss Shadow and Metal's rivalry with Sonic based on that standard or the core argument against Jet's rivalry is hypocritical.

[Kuzu]

When?

Also being great and a rival does not make one a great rival.

Sonic Chronicles, Sonic Free Riders, Both Rival games.

Sonic & Shadow fight in almost every game they're in.

Understand that my position is not that mechanical assistance invalidate the status of a rivalry, but that Jet isn't the only one who uses it, ergo the naysayers of that particular rivalry must also dismiss Shadow and Metal's rivalry with Sonic based on that standard or the core argument against Jet's rivalry is hypocritical.

I don't dismiss Jet at all though, but because of limited appearances compared to Metal or Shadow he doesn't have as much a status as a rival compared to those two.

[Diogenes]

That seems like more of a semantics argument than anything. I give that it would be proper for Jet to clarify the context of their rivalry, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the rivalry or mean it's stupid, especially since we both agree Shadow and Metal's involvement in the discussion is analogous to Jet's.

I agree that they have a rivalry, but it's not about the same things as with Metal and Shadow. Jet's rivalry is based on Gear riding, which is just something Sonic took up as a hobby (and/or to get into Eggman's tournament). Shadow and Metal are challenging Sonic's on-foot speed, whether or not they're cheating to do it.

What their own power is seems to be subjective. Metal achieves his highest speeds through propulsion systems irrelevant to leg movement; Them being connected to his body doesn't mean one cannot call into question the effort and skill he puts into gaining those speeds. For all we know, it's as effortless and thus as unskilled as you believe turning on a Gear is.

At what point did effort and skill come into this? Metal's engine is build into his body, thus it is his speed, regardless of how much skill or effort it requires to use (and the same would be true if he used his just-as-mechanical legs to match Sonic's speed). Jet is using a separate piece of equipment.

As for Jet, of course it's his speed. He rides the board in a skillful enough manner to maintain its speed and be a good rider.

Which makes him a good rider. It doesn't make him fast.

The board itself may be mechanical, but so are Shadow's skates...and Metal himself. The point being, "own power" is not enough of a qualifier for these characters to be in the discussion because they all use mechanical assistance to some degree.

Metal isn't using "mechanical assistance"; he is the machine. We wouldn't say Sonic is using organic assistance because he's using muscles to pull on his bones in a way that propels him forward. On the other hand, if he had to ride a horse to go fast, one could call that organic assistance, in the same way that riding a hoverboard is mechanical assistance.

Two characters from different walks of life, posessing diferent moral values and methodologies, as well as similar capabilities, is the very basis for a good rivalry. At any rate, do you mean that Shadow is not a great rival in that he cannot compete, or that you simply don't like him as a character and invalidate him immediately?

Neither. It's that Shadow barely ever does anything that you could call rivalry, in spite of the great potential for it.

Sonic Chronicles, Sonic Free Riders, Both Rival games.

Noncanon, hoverboards, and everyone fights everyone.

Sonic & Shadow fight in almost every game they're in.

And yet I can't think of a single significant fight since Shadow turned good. Edited March 7, 2011 by Diogenes

[Kuzu]

Noncanon, hoverboards, and everyone fights everyone.

Does it really matter? The bottom line is they still have competitions with each other, whether its on Hoverboards or not. IF that's the case then I could say Jet doesn't count as a rival because he appears in a pair of spin offs.

And yet I can't think of a single significant fight since Shadow turned good.

..What is your definition of significant?

[DarkLight]

And I wonder why the topic I made not too long ago couldn't stir this much debate.....

/sarcasm/

Edited March 7, 2011 by DragonSoul

[hebitaka]

Shadow competed with Sonic in his own game did he not.

[Kuzu]

Shadow competed with Sonic in his own game did he not.

Not really. Sonic was more of an extra, unless he was the part of the final boss.

Games like Battle, Free Riders, and Rivals have them competing.

[Diogenes]

Does it really matter?

Yes.

The bottom line is they still have competitions with each other,

Everyone competes with everyone from time to time, when you bring party games and the Rivals subseries into the mix.

IF that's the case then I could say Jet doesn't count as a rival because he appears in a pair of spin offs.

Jet's a different case since his entire existence is contained within those spinoffs.

..What is your definition of significant?

I dunno. Takes place in a major game, isn't just one fight out of a group of equally (ir)relevant fights?

Shadow competed with Sonic in his own game did he not.

At a point where he had amnesia and stood at the crossroads between good and evil. And, you only fight Sonic if you pick evil.