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Has Knuckles become too dumb?

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Over the years it seems that Knuckles has become less and less smart. It seems that Sega is focusing more and more on the gullible side of his personality. The worst was in "Sonic X". Knuckles was really made out to be an idot in "Sonic X". He got tricked by Robotnik a lot in "Sonic X", plus he was the butt of many jokes. Nowadays I feel that Archie Comics are the only ones that do Knuckles justice.

So are you happy with the way that Knuckles personality is, or are you not happy?

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Over the years it seems that Knuckles has become less and less smart. It seems that Sega is focusing more and more on the gullible side of his personality. The worst was in "Sonic X". Knuckles was really made out to be an idot in "Sonic X". He got tricked by Robotnik a lot in "Sonic X", plus he was the butt of many jokes. Nowadays I feel that Archie Comics are the only ones that do Knuckles justice.

So are you happy with the way that Knuckles personality is, or are you not happy?

Well Knuckles was only tricked by Eggman in Sonic X twice, which is even less than in the games, and even then I thought Knuckles was awesome in the first season, it was only in season 3 where he was declined.

Archie!Knuckles is WAY too angsty, I understand he has problems, but he should've did like he did in SA1, suck it up, and get the job done.

I do like Knuckles` being picked on, but only from characters like Sonic, or Rouge seeing how that's they're thing, but characters like Cream or Tails doing it is going too far.

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Well Knuckles was only tricked by Eggman in Sonic X twice, which is even less than in the games, and even then I thought Knuckles was awesome in the first season, it was only in season 3 where he was declined.

Everyone declined in Season 3. Not that they were great to begin with, but still. The "actually hurting them is going too far" line still haunts me to this day, and the complete rubbish that was Dark Super Sonic still makes me rage to this day. Everything else, as well as everyone else... just makes me sigh. To this day.

Anyways, Knuckles needs to be less of a typical strong-but-dumb guy, just as Tails needs to be less of a typical smart-but-weak guy. Back in the day he was basically Sonic-Rambo, laying traps all over his island in order to catch the "intruders" rather than just go RAHH PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH RAAAAGE. Sure, he was still gullible, but that's not the same as "stupid". He was still intelligent.

It's not that he's completely retarded these days, but more that there's not been enough focus on his less PUNCH PUNCH side.

And I still think that making Knuckles a Butt Monkey in Sonic X was one of the worst things in the show. The only thing that could have made it worse was if it was Tails instead.

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Everyone declined in Season 3. Not that they were great to begin with, but still. The "actually hurting them is going too far" line still haunts me to this day, and the complete rubbish that was Dark Super Sonic still makes me rage to this day. Everything else, as well as everyone else... just makes me sigh. To this day.

Call me a loon, but I kinda liked Dark Super Sonic, yeah its cliched, but still.

Anyways, Knuckles needs to be less of a typical strong-but-dumb guy, just as Tails needs to be less of a typical smart-but-weak guy. Back in the day he was basically Sonic-Rambo, laying traps all over his island in order to catch the "intruders" rather than just go RAHH PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH RAAAAGE. Sure, he was still gullible, but that's not the same as "stupid". He was still intelligent.

In Tails` defense he IS still a kid, and isn't going to be able to do things like smash through boulders or plow at the speed of sound, I think its more of his lack of focus.

And I still think that making Knuckles a Butt Monkey in Sonic X was one of the worst things in the show. The only thing that could have made it worse was if it was Tails instead.

Like I said, it was only bad when Tails or Amy did it, because they're supposed to respect Knuckles, you can't get mad for Sonic or Rouge treating Knuckles like crap, its they're thing, and Knuckles does retaliate.

And really I don't mind him being a butt monkey, it was just taken too far, characters aren't perfect.

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Knuckles is remarkably dumb. And I don't think that all of the "Sees good in anyone" freudian excuses can save him. I mean, Eggman has proven time and time again that he's a bad egg and is extremely unlikely to reform so there's no justification for why Knuckles should continue viewing him as if he will repent to the side of good permanently.

Knuckles even reaches levels of bigotry when it comes to opposing his allies in order to assist Eggman. But then that was in Sonic X, where Knuckles characterisation was extremely inconsistent. He goes from voicing sensible reservations concerning Eggman and emeralds in episode 10 (The baseball episode) to giving the emeralds to him on a frikkin' plate in episode 25 and believing any cock and bull story Eggman feeds him practically any other time.

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Knuckles is remarkably dumb. And I don't think that all of the "Sees good in anyone" freudian excuses can save him. I mean, Eggman has proven time and time again that he's a bad egg and is extremely unlikely to reform so there's no justification for why Knuckles should continue viewing him as if he will repent to the side of good permanently.

Knuckles even reaches levels of bigotry when it comes to opposing his allies in order to assist Eggman. But then that was in Sonic X, where Knuckles characterisation was extremely inconsistent. He goes from voicing sensible reservations concerning Eggman and emeralds in episode 10 (The baseball episode) to giving the emeralds to him on a frikkin' plate in episode 25 and believing any cock and bull story Eggman feeds him practically any other time.

Well.....when was the last time he was tricked? oh wait...Colors, which is possibly the worst one by far, the other times he was tricked it was at least plot relevant, in Colors it served no other purpose than to make Knuckles look like a fool.

Goddamn it Sonic Team, one of your earliest most badass characters, and you treat them like shit, fuck you.

Edited by Shadic93

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Not-game-related plot threads put aside:

Knuckles has been utterly wrecked as a character. In his original appearance he was simply an intelligent guy who'd had no contact with the outside world until one Dr. Eggman showed up, so he had no reason to doubt him. Knuckles' handling of Sonic was consistently clever all the way through to Hidden Palace where he lost to him in a fair fight and then learnt the hard way that Eggman was tricking him.

Every other game since then his original totally reasonable gullibility has been Flanderized to the point that he's now a total retard who only manages to get by because he can smash solid iron with his fists.

Knuckles' modern characterisation sucks.

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I'd say yes, though it's a symptom of the other problems surrounding him. Knuckles isn't supposed to be particularly smart anyway; not that he's dumb, but of Team Sonic he's clearly the one to use for any "dumb guy" moments. And this isn't a bad thing; in the first Riders, for example, there's the scene where Tails starts explaining how Gear works, and it's all just technobabble to Knuckles. It's a "dumb guy" moment, but it doesn't cast Knuckles in a bad light; the technobabble is just as incomprehensible to the player, it fits with him being a hotheaded outsider, and it also shows his practical side ("It just floats and that's good enough for me!"). It becomes a problem when he's dumb in general, or dumb about things he should know, as that reduces him to being either a lump of muscle or a joke character.

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Everyone declined in Season 3. Not that they were great to begin with, but still. The "actually hurting them is going too far" line still haunts me to this day, and the complete rubbish that was Dark Super Sonic still makes me rage to this day. Everything else, as well as everyone else... just makes me sigh. To this day.

Eggman doesn't say that line in the Japanese version. Blame 4kids for butchering the script and making the script way too kiddy.

Also, Dark Sonic is pretty badass even though he only appeared on screen for about 10 seconds.

Edited by sonfan1984

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Archie!Knuckles is WAY too angsty, I understand he has problems, but he should've did like he did in SA1, suck it up, and get the job done.

You can't really just suck up the problems Knuckles has in the comics. They tend to be the kind of things that drive people to suicide in the real world.

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I'll be honest, I actually don't hate Knuckles being as angsty as he is sometimes, probably because it was makes him stand out in the series and sometimes it is quite humorous. (I really like how he acts around Rouge actually.) But in Colors, it was written as if CUBOT AND ORBOT were smarter than him in the DS game. Seriously, I'm all for a little comedy, but don't put Knuckles under those two of all characters in the Sonic games. Just don't make him being gullible the main aspect of him focused on 100% of the time. More like 30%, and focus on his other qualities that make him a truly well-rounded and great character.

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You can't really just suck up the problems Knuckles has in the comics. They tend to be the kind of things that drive people to suicide in the real world.

But that's just it, this isn't the real world, its a fictional series about cartoon animals. I don't mind when it gets serious, but Archie plays things almost too realisticaly and in a series like Sonic, it just doesn't work.

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I really don't think that Knuckles was as smart to begin with as people like to give him credit for. Yes, he could be sort of clever and threatening and (in Adventure, anyway) introspective, but just based on his antics in Sonic 3 & Knuckles I don't think he was ever meant to be particularly bright. Honestly, I like the idea of a character who's got an epic destiny, a mysterious past, a serious outlook on life... and is also dumb as bricks. It tickles the funny bone of my inner five-year old; I'm sorry.

That said, he's certainly lost a lot of his depth in his more recent appearances. I don't think that the problem is that Knuckles is stupid; I think it's that all of his other traits have become less prominent. We really need to see more of his dutiful, spiritual side to contrast with his, er, knuckleheadedness. I'm gonna shill Zero Gravity's portrayal of Knuckles for the billionth time as one of my favourites in the modern era, since it let him have moments as a bumbling idiot but also as an expert treasure-hunter and linguist. The key is to present Knuckles less as outright stupid and more as... specialized.

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You can't really just suck up the problems Knuckles has in the comics. They tend to be the kind of things that drive people to suicide in the real world.

And even then, he seems to be handling things in a significantly less angsty way lately, so comics Knux seems fine to me.

Now, as for Knuckles in the games... well, I've said it before, and others have said it in this thread, but SEGA basically grabbed him by his "gullible" trait and slammed him into the ground. Sonic 3 & Knuckles; first real outside contact, makes sense he would believe Robotnik. Sonic Adventure; okay, so he knows Robotnik is bad, and he does accuse him of having an M.E. shard when he sees him, but considering this is (probably) the first time the Emerald has completely it's a bit more understandable that he might believe Eggman's cryptic message. And after everything is explained he just goes straight back to business. SA2 also had good characterization of Knuckles. Heroes was... Heroes, and Shadow barely counts too 'cause he's just there inexplicably like most of the other side characters.

And then we come to 06. Apart from the fact that he once again shows up inexplicably, he shows some promise of looking cool with the way he holds Robotnik's message card and how he throws it to Sonic. (On a random theory sidenote: perhaps the reason Knux has been showing up constantly without any reason to abandon his Guardian duties is because the Knuckles we see is actually a highly advanced Eggman's-robot but its programming is faulty'failing and Robotnik hasn't had a chance to get him back to fix him, hence Knuckles's increasing stupidity and gullibility, since Eggman based his personality off of their first few encounters). And then when Sonic throws it back to him instead of catching it and throwing it to the side or crushing it or something else cool, he fails to catch it then fumbles around a bit before he ends of just dropping it. And then of course there's the part towards the end when everyone runs off in dramatic fashion to save Sonic, and what does Knuckles do? He runs in the wrong direction. It doesn't help that just earlier in Riders all he basically did was get angry.

Though at least in Zero Gravity they brought up the fact that he's an archaeological expert. So hopefully his next main-game appearance will fix the massive flanderization that he's acquired.

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Yes, very much so. And it frustarates me to no end, especially with theese post-Heroes era fanboys keep insisting that Knuckles is just some giant dumbass. Alternatively there are the Classic era fanboys who put most of the blame on Shadow.

Well.....when was the last time he was tricked? oh wait...Colors, which is possibly the worst one by far, the other times he was tricked it was at least plot relevant, in Colors it served no other purpose than to make Knuckles look like a fool.

Goddamn it Sonic Team, one of your earliest most badass characters, and you treat them like shit, fuck you.

I'll be honest, I actually don't hate Knuckles being as angsty as he is sometimes, probably because it was makes him stand out in the series and sometimes it is quite humorous. (I really like how he acts around Rouge actually.) But in Colors, it was written as if CUBOT AND ORBOT were smarter than him in the DS game.

Seriously? Come on Sega.

The "actually hurting them is going too far" line still haunts me to this day, and the complete rubbish that was Dark Super Sonic still makes me rage to this day

To be fair to Eggman, the orignal line was something like: "Is this how we're going to settle things? You aren't the only one who uses hostages to settle things. But what you did... you've gone too far!" Which admittedly, does sound cool, and is worded a lot better.

And I actually like Dark Super Sonic, I just wish it was pulled off better, but it did lead to a CMoA for Eggman, so it's all good. Super Sonic was the same way in STC, I should probably check that out.

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Yes, very much so. And it frustarates me to no end, especially with theese post-Heroes era fanboys keep insisting that Knuckles is just some giant dumbass. Alternatively there are the Classic era fanboys who put most of the blame on Shadow.

Seriously? Come on Sega.

To be fair to Eggman, the orignal line was something like: "Is this how we're going to settle things? You aren't the only one who uses hostages to settle things. But what you did... you've gone too far!" Which admittedly, does sound cool, and is worded a lot better.

And I actually like Dark Super Sonic, I just wish it was pulled off better, but it did lead to a CMoA for Eggman, so it's all good. Super Sonic was the same way in STC, I should probably check that out.

Zero Gravity admitelly was one of Knuckles` better modern portrayls, he was serious, loved to fight, and was actually smart about something, and the times where he has a bumbling moment are small in between, it was good overall. Knuckles` situation is like Bowser's he fluctuates between the games; In the main series Bowser is the evil overlord who wants to take over the Mushroom Kingdom, and kill Mario while Bowser in the RPG's is a comical joke, who's mostly the warm up boss in the games, and is just a Jerk with a crush on Peach. Only difference however when "Bowser's Inside Story" came out, Bowser took a MAJOR level in Badass, completely undoing all the villain decay from the other RPG's. Yeah he acted no different from before RPG wise, but he punched out Castles, Giant Monsters, and Dark Stars while shouting about how awesome he is, it was a MAJOR improvment. Knuckles needs something like that, a game proving that he can be Badass even when doing stupid things, and making idiotic mistakes, while maintaining some of his original charm as well.

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Sonic & Tails: Knuckles' Interior Biography?

I'd play it.

To be fair to Eggman, the orignal line was something like: "Is this how we're going to settle things? You aren't the only one who uses hostages to settle things. But what you did... you've gone too far!" Which admittedly, does sound cool, and is worded a lot better.

The wording doesn't matter. It still established X Robotnik as a total pansy.

And I actually like Dark Super Sonic, I just wish it was pulled off better, but it did lead to a CMoA for Eggman, so it's all good. Super Sonic was the same way in STC, I should probably check that out.

I hate the Superpowered Evil Side anyways. Overrated and abused cliche if you ask me.

And IMO, there was nothing awesome about that scene. Nothing. What would be awesome is if Dark Super Sonic (or alternatively, Chris) was Falcon Punched out by Robotnik in a S3&K Death Egg boss-esque mech. That's more like it.

But anyways, back to Knuckles - less dumb-dumb moments would be swell for the character. But really, we all just want the OVA hat to return.

Edited by Dr. Crusher

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The wording doesn't matter. It still established X Robotnik as a total pansy.

Not really, just because a villain objects to something like that and has a moral code doesen't make them any less of an awesome villain. (See: Solf J. Kimblee from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood.)

But anyways, back to Knuckles - less dumb-dumb moments would be swell for the character. But really, we all just want the OVA hat to return.

Oh God yes! And have him go all Kung Lao with it to (Albeit, not as violent). Add the sunglasses and we're all set. B)

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Zero Gravity admitelly was one of Knuckles` better modern portrayals, he was serious, loved to fight, and was actually smart about something, and the times where he has a bumbling moment are small in between, it was good overall. Knuckles` situation is like Bowser's he fluctuates between the games; In the main series Bowser is the evil overlord who wants to take over the Mushroom Kingdom, and kill Mario while Bowser in the RPG's is a comical joke, who's mostly the warm up boss in the games, and is just a Jerk with a crush on Peach. Only difference however when "Bowser's Inside Story" came out, Bowser took a MAJOR level in Badass, completely undoing all the villain decay from the other RPG's. Yeah he acted no different from before RPG wise, but he punched out Castles, Giant Monsters, and Dark Stars while shouting about how awesome he is, it was a MAJOR improvment. Knuckles needs something like that, a game proving that he can be Badass even when doing stupid things, and making idiotic mistakes, while maintaining some of his original charm as well.

I agree. Part of the problem isn't so much that he's used for comic relief, it's that he's used for comic relief and almost nothing else, which is partially the fault of shoving characters in when they aren't needed. Like in '06, he gives you a message, which wasn't entirely necessary itself, and then he's just...there for the rest of the game, his only significance is being randomly shoved into a stage in an amigo segment.

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I agree. Part of the problem isn't so much that he's used for comic relief, it's that he's used for comic relief and almost nothing else, which is partially the fault of shoving characters in when they aren't needed. Like in '06, he gives you a message, which wasn't entirely necessary itself, and then he's just...there for the rest of the game, his only significance is being randomly shoved into a stage in an amigo segment.

Exactly its not that he's dumb, its that he's Nothing BUT dumb. He spends most games(Rush and Colors in particular) shouting and doing nothing else, at when Bowser was being stupid he was, as he put it "Got things done".

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Oh, come on. Knuckles has ALWAYS been a block-head. I love the guy, but DAMN he's an idiot sometimes. I don't think he's stupid at all (in fact he strikes me as having a quiet and somewhat mysterious intelligence, that he understands some things more deeply than most people will ever grasp), but he's naive. Particularly, he's socially naive, which is why he gets tricked so much. There are different types of intelligence, and Knuckles is strongly intelligent when it comes to chaos and nature and relevant history etc, but much weaker with technology and people. I think he's well-rounded.

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