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Does Shadow have natureal super sonic speed or not?


hebitaka

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In MS's case, it's not dirty at all. He IS the machine. That engine is as much a part of him as his legs servos are.

The very fact that he's a machine makes it unfair since a robot is capable of strength, reflexes, reactions, and (in most cases) speed far greater than a normal hedgehog.

Hell, I'm pretty sure Metal's concept in general was a way to show just how awesome Sonic is in a John Henry sort of way, being able to beat a "superior" machine through sheer man hedgehogpower.

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In MS's case, it's not dirty at all. He IS the machine. That engine is as much a part of him as his legs servos are. Add that to the fact that Metal Sonic CAN use Sonic Boom while Shadow yes yet to do so, leaves Sonic with two equals in the entire franchise: Metal Sonic and Scourge (let's drag all canons in here anyway, remember, this is about abilities, which tend to stay the same). Both of them are literal clones but yet, Sonic is superior to them both.

True true but Metal Sonic has been seen once or twice being capable of walking without his jet engine however. And if he could do that he could try to run without it. Also about the whole Metal Sonic fighting dirty thing, well every instance in canon he always uses underhanded tactics (eg. Eggman's laser and spike traps, becoming a metal dragon, etc.) and yet Sonic is still able to overcome him. This does make him good villain material and perhaps a bigger threat than Shadow but this is really another subject. Sonic overcame Metal with odds against him and let's leave it at that. :P

That looks more like a power aura than anything.

Well a power aura is mostly for show most of the time. But remember Shadow was running/skating into the robots so that suggest he was ramming a lot of things all at once. And as we learned from Sonic you'll have to be pretty fast to even destroy stuff let alone an army. He would had to been going so fast to even get past Mephiles' giant ass army.

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Thats debatable. The manuals kinda go pretty far out of the way to say that Shadow can "match Sonic's speed and abilities" (Heroes). At the very least, Shth manual refers to him as being able to "easily rival Sonic's speed", so he is at least in the same ballpark, if he isn't Sonic's equal.

Within their respective games, sure. I touched on this in my first large post in the topic: technically, anyone can rival Sonic's speed in-game, however this depends on the game.

Keep in mind that if Sonic were able to reach his full potential in real-time, he'd be uncontrollable. There's no clear indication that Shadow is declared as faster than Sonic, either. Ergo, you can't be equal as well as slower. Sonic has to be the fastest. I'll concede that Shadow is probably a close second, nothing more.

Edited by Indigo Rush
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Sonic overcame Metal with odds against him and let's leave it at that. :P

Pretty solid argument. I can dig it :)

Well a power aura is mostly for show most of the time. But remember Shadow was running/skating into the robots so that suggest he was ramming a lot of things all at once. And as we learned from Sonic you'll have to be pretty fast to even destroy stuff let alone an army. He would had to been going so fast to even get past Mephiles' giant ass army.

Well in Shadow's case, the aura was doing the work. We've actually seen that auras are damage dealing objects in themselves. A good example is Super Sonic in Sonic Rush. When he dashes, the aura is in front of him, much like Shadow's here, and he breaks asteroids and such with it. Burning Blaze's aura when dashing is behind her, and for this reason she can't break asteroids by dashing into them.

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Within their respective games, sure. I touched on this in my first large post in the topic: technically, anyone can rival Sonic's speed in-game, however this depends on the game.

fair enough, but I wouldn't exactly hold manual bio's to the same standard of gameplay restrictions.

Keep in mind that if Sonic were able to reach his full potential in real-time, he'd be uncontrollable.

Mute point. The same be said for any high speed character. I imagine that if Blaze, Shadow or Metal let loose, they too would be deemed uncontrollable.

There's no clear indication that Shadow is declared as faster than Sonic, either. Ergo, you can't be equal as well as slower. Sonic has to be the fastest. I'll concede that Shadow is probably a close second, nothing more.

But you can be equal while still rivaling your opponents speed, which is precisely what the manual bio's suggest.

Sonic doesn't have to be the fastest anything. He probably is, but to be honest he has just as much media hyping him as the fastest Hedgehog as Shadow does. zilch.

Edited by Sega DogTagz
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I'm gonna be referencing the sound barrier here quite a bit.

fair enough, but I wouldn't exactly hold manual bio's to the same standard of gameplay restrictions.

I would.

Mute point. The same be said for any high speed character. I imagine that if Blaze, Shadow or Metal let loose, they too would be deemed uncontrollable.

Of course, but do they have any indication of breaking the sound barrier? That's kind of the bar Sonic's raising here, and their Sonic Channel (the final say) gives no indication of this. It's pretty darn noteworthy.

But you can be equal while still rivaling your opponents speed, which is precisely what the manual bio's suggest.

Fair enough, but we still need to confirm Shadow's ability to break the sound barrier.

Sonic doesn't have to be the fastest anything. He probably is, but to be honest he has just as much media hyping him as the fastest Hedgehog as Shadow does. zilch.

Sonic Riders he's referred to as "The Fastest Thing Alive," and his Sonic Channel bio is the only bio that explains he can break the sound barrier. I think it would have mentioned something like this on Shadow's profile if he could.

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Well a power aura is mostly for show most of the time. But remember Shadow was running/skating into the robots so that suggest he was ramming a lot of things all at once. And as we learned from Sonic you'll have to be pretty fast to even destroy stuff let alone an army. He would had to been going so fast to even get past Mephiles' giant ass army.

Obviously,. It wouldn't be as dramatic if he were just walking through them. But it isn't indicative of anything relating to Shadow's speed, it's just for cinematics.

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Of course, but do they have any indication of breaking the sound barrier? That's kind of the bar Sonic's raising here, and their Sonic Channel (the final say) gives no indication of this. It's pretty darn noteworthy.

Fair enough, but we still need to confirm Shadow's ability to break the sound barrier.

I can do that, but it will take a tiny bit of math.

I think that many people would agree that the Boost in Unleashed HD is the thematic equivalent to a Sonic Boom (in fact, I think I saw it mentioned once or twice in this thread). If this is the case, then it must be noted that Sonic is able to boost and break sound barrier right from the start.

During a typical stage, as you dash between checkpoints, your speed is measured in something dubbed SPD. It is a measurement that weighs how fast you go through the checkpoint (and probably requires you to maintain your speed a bit). On your first run through the game, with a rock bottom statistical Sonic, you are able to put up respectable SPD's of 700-900 during the first level through several checkpoints that you are able to cleanly run through. This would make SPD counters roughly similar to Miles per Hour, as the speed of sound rests at about 760 mph. In an unbroken stride, Sonic can reach those speeds in a boost and be awarded the appropriate amount of speed counters.

In Unleashed HD Sonic is further given the leeway to upgrade his stats. With a Sonic that leans more to the max speed department, the Hedgehog can flat out demolish that original Sound Barrier requirement. On a particular stretch in Adabat, I've recorded SPD that easily exceeds 1600. Using that, if Shadow is even half as fast as Sonic (which we know isnt the case), he too must be able to break the sound barrier line marked at around 700 SPD.

Can we put criticism this to bed yet?

Sonic Riders he's referred to as "The Fastest Thing Alive," and his Sonic Channel bio is the only bio that explains he can break the sound barrier. I think it would have mentioned something like this on Shadow's profile if he could.

If Shadow's speed is meant to rival that of the blue blur, than Unleashed is all the evidence we really need to show that Shadow can outpace Mach 1. Sonic Channel may not list it as a selling point for him, but It isn't the most vital part of his character to warrant being mentioned. Just because it isn't listed in a 1 sentence bio doesn't lock out the possibility.

Edited by Sega DogTagz
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Well, seeing as I strive to know everything about Shadow, this is how I see it.

Shadow can run/glide at about 85% of Sonic's speed. Sonic is still faster, but Shadow uses his Chaos powers to warp himself to higher speeds. I might just be saying this because I watch and sub Sonic X, but he rarely runs; instead, he always seems to warp from place to place. Sonic can INSTANTLY accelerate to supersonic speed, whilst Shadow is always seen building up his speed over time. He has never really been able to instantly accelerate to such high speeds using only his feet. It always appears to be a warp.

To summarize, Shadow does NOT have natural supersonic speed. He can come close, but in the end, he resorts to his warping and Chaos Control abilities to make up for the speed that he doesn't have (compared to Sonic.) The shoes are probably to help him maintain his power, since it seems to be directed towards Chaos powers and not speed. The shoes just allow him to keep up his speed with little effort so he can use Chaos Spear or barrel through enemies, which conserves energy.

Edited by hookons0nic2
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I can do that, but it will take a tiny bit of math.

I think that many people would agree that the Boost in Unleashed HD is the thematic equivalent to a Sonic Boom (in fact, I think I saw it mentioned once or twice in this thread). If this is the case, then it must be noted that Sonic is able to boost and break sound barrier right from the start.

164.jpg

During a typical stage, as you dash between checkpoints, your speed is measured in something dubbed SPD. It is a measurement that weighs how fast you go through the checkpoint (and probably requires you to maintain your speed a bit). On your first run through the game, with a rock bottom statistical Sonic, you are able to put up respectable SPD's of 700-900 during the first level through several checkpoints that you are able to cleanly run through. This would make SPD counters roughly similar to Miles per Hour, as the speed of sound rests at about 760 mph. In an unbroken stride, Sonic can reach those speeds in a boost and be awarded the appropriate amount of speed counters.

Alright, I follow you so far.

In Unleashed HD Sonic is further given the leeway to upgrade his stats. With a Sonic that leans more to the max speed department, the Hedgehog can flat out demolish that original Sound Barrier requirement. On a particular stretch in Adabat, I've recorded SPD that easily exceeds 1600. Using that, if Shadow is even half as fast as Sonic (which we know isnt the case), he too must be able to break the sound barrier line marked at around 700 SPD.

I follow you so far. Unfortunately, Sonic's the only character who's given a statistical average for speed. I'd like it if other characters had official biographies that list their top speed. If SEGA were to give me a statistical reason for Shadow to break the sound barrier, then I'd concede that Shadow is equally on par with Sonic.

On rocket skates.

Can we put criticism this to bed yet?

Nighty night. :D

If Shadow's speed is meant to rival that of the blue blur, than Unleashed is all the evidence we really need to show that Shadow can outpace Mach 1. Sonic Channel may not list it as a selling point for him, but It isn't the most vital part of his character to warrant being mentioned. Just because it isn't listed in a 1 sentence bio doesn't lock out the possibility.

I'll concede to this. Apologies for being rabid earlier (if I came across as such) but I will literally go to all lengths to defend Sonic's title as the fastest.

Fun fact, actually: I went to a roller skating rink today. Really. And dang, I gotta give props to Shadow for being able to run around like that. It's hard as all get out to maintain a good speed, and it certainly works up a sweat, but I do find myself going faster than I would be if I were running.

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Fun fact, actually: I went to a roller skating rink today. Really. And dang, I gotta give props to Shadow for being able to run around like that. It's hard as all get out to maintain a good speed, and it certainly works up a sweat, but I do find myself going faster than I would be if I were running.

Try doing it while maintaining yourself a few inches off the air with rockets of all things. Heck, gravity can still support you with roller skates, but you're completely fighting it with rocket skates and it can be considerably more dangerous.

How he controls those rockets is worth noting as well.

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I noticed that nobody too in the factor of aerodynamics between both hedgehogs. I believe, by design, that Shadow is actually slower since the air stream is completely covering Shadow; whilst Sonic's airstream has only one direction (which is overhead).

Also, the design of the quills with each hedgehog proves that Sonic is truly faster than Shadow (with a quillstyle like that, you bound to slow down, that quillstyle is like wearing a low fedora). Also, since Shadow has the ability of suspended animation (hovering), Shadow can only be in his own "time" period (Another reason why Sonic is faster because he is on the ground = connected with gravity, or in other words e=mc^2 [theory of relativity])

Storywise, if Eggman can be as fast as sonic in Sonic 2 and 4, so can shadow. Also, Shadow's main purpose was to destroy the earth with power, not with speed. Shadow puts the classic Speed vs. Power game arc archetype that belongs in so many franchises (Mario and Wario is another one; Mario being the "speed").

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Storywise, if Eggman can be as fast as sonic in Sonic 2 and 4, so can shadow.

Eggman outrunning Sonic isn't much. You can only gather so much from a couple of seconds. Anyone can sprint quickly for a few seconds before tiring out. Eggman was just simply fast enough for the couple of seconds he needed to get to his machine in time.

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I follow you so far. Unfortunately, Sonic's the only character who's given a statistical average for speed. I'd like it if other characters had official biographies that list their top speed. If SEGA were to give me a statistical reason for Shadow to break the sound barrier, then I'd concede that Shadow is equally on par with Sonic.

On rocket skates.

Sega's never actually given us a top speed for Sonic. He is often labeled at Mach 1 as a benchmark, but across most media (Unleashed included) He can clearly destroy it. I like that Sega keeps us in the dark on that front. The day Sonic can't run faster than 760 mph is the day Eggman builds a secret weapon that can do 761 (excluding Metal of course).

I'll concede to this. Apologies for being rabid earlier (if I came across as such) but I will literally go to all lengths to defend Sonic's title as the fastest.

Fun fact, actually: I went to a roller skating rink today. Really. And dang, I gotta give props to Shadow for being able to run around like that. It's hard as all get out to maintain a good speed, and it certainly works up a sweat, but I do find myself going faster than I would be if I were running.

Oh no problem. On a similar note I hope no one here is interpreting my points as a belief that Shadow is somehow the unquestioned King of Speed.

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I noticed that nobody too in the factor of aerodynamics between both hedgehogs. I believe, by design, that Shadow is actually slower since the air stream is completely covering Shadow; whilst Sonic's airstream has only one direction (which is overhead).

Also, the design of the quills with each hedgehog proves that Sonic is truly faster than Shadow (with a quillstyle like that, you bound to slow down, that quillstyle is like wearing a low fedora). Also, since Shadow has the ability of suspended animation (hovering), Shadow can only be in his own "time" period (Another reason why Sonic is faster because he is on the ground = connected with gravity, or in other words e=mc^2 [theory of relativity])

Storywise, if Eggman can be as fast as sonic in Sonic 2 and 4, so can shadow. Also, Shadow's main purpose was to destroy the earth with power, not with speed. Shadow puts the classic Speed vs. Power game arc archetype that belongs in so many franchises (Mario and Wario is another one; Mario being the "speed").

....You're trying to bring science into a series where Echidnas can glide because of their Dreadlocks?....really?

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Hey, you're no better for arguing about this to begin with.

Because it doesn't really matter to me, trust me if I have a point, I WILL make it known.

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....You're trying to bring science into a series where Echidnas can glide because of their Dreadlocks?....really?

Where was it stated that the dreadlocks were the reason Knuckles can glide?

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Additionally, have you played Sonic Unleashed lately? Wanna know why Sonic's the only playable character for this game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiYJCFa2_3A

Because no one else can do this.

Do what, say "wooooooooh" more times than a JR high student jerks off by the time he makes it to 10th grade? Hahaha Just wanted to add my 2 cents into this argument about sonic v shadow. SEGA, make a game showing shadow's true speed & abilities since he is suppose to be "the ultimate life form". SHTH was shit. Sonic 06 was shit. We need this answered so Sonic & Shadow fans can shut up about it and make a topic about how dumb Amy Rose is. =P

Edited by Ultimate X360
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I object to the use of Sonic's Unleashed's speed scoring as a means to gauge Sonic's speed. The entire system is to award points for how fast you go through the checkpoints. The numbers shown are likely the literal points awarded, simply because the cap is well over 3000. As fast as Sonic is, he is not that fast. His cap has been stated to be well under 1000 MPH (I do believe it's somewhere around the speed of sound, at least until the Chaos Emeralds come into the fray.)

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I object to the use of Sonic's Unleashed's speed scoring as a means to gauge Sonic's speed. The entire system is to award points for how fast you go through the checkpoints. The numbers shown are likely the literal points awarded, simply because the cap is well over 3000. As fast as Sonic is, he is not that fast. His cap has been stated to be well under 1000 MPH (I do believe it's somewhere around the speed of sound, at least until the Chaos Emeralds come into the fray.)

1000MPH is about MACH 1.5, meaning Sonic can at best reach 1 and a half times the speed of sound without chaos emeralds. The only reason he hasn't gone anywhere near as fast as this during gameplay, is because we humans would not be able to react to oncoming obstacles quickly enough.

In any case, 1000MPH is fucking fast, and no other character could reach that speed.

Edited by Scar
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1000MPH is about MACH 1.5, meaning Sonic can at best reach 1 and a half times the speed of sound without chaos emeralds. The only reason he hasn't gone anywhere near as fast as this during gameplay, is because we humans would not be able to react to oncoming obstacles quickly enough.

In any case, 100MPH is fucking fast, and no other character could reach that speed.

Tell that to Captain Falcon. Uh wait wrong game and series.

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Of course, while non-canonical, the shows/anime/movies/comics/manga are what truly show Sonic's speed because they don't have to limit it based on human reaction speed.

The fastest I've ever seen Sonic run in the anime is probably that one episode where he was racing Sam -- Sam's vehicle could already previously go past the sound barrier but then he upgraded it to use CUTTING-EDGE ROCKET TECHNOLOGY, which probably amped it up a couple of machs... and Sonic still had WELL more than enough speed to simply play around with him and show off before the finish of the race.

I doubt Shadow can keep up with that shit, jet skates or not, Sonic's not even shown running quite this fast in Episode 34 where he fights Shadow.

Now to get mathematically technical you could take the average distance between city blocks and how many milliseconds it takes Sonic, Sam, and Shadow to move between them in each of those episodes respectively and use that to get their speed, but I'm too lazy to do that. And in any case none of this still proves whether or not Shadow can run faster than sound without the skates. :P

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1000MPH is about MACH 1.5, meaning Sonic can at best reach 1 and a half times the speed of sound without chaos emeralds. The only reason he hasn't gone anywhere near as fast as this during gameplay, is because we humans would not be able to react to oncoming obstacles quickly enough.

In any case, 1000MPH is fucking fast, and no other character could reach that speed.

Its not like Sonic has had a foot race with either Metal or Shadow to prove that.

Well there was the Stardust Speedway act 3 boss, and Sa2's Final Sonic/Shadow fight where they're clearly keeping pace with each other before the fight begins.

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I object to the use of Sonic's Unleashed's speed scoring as a means to gauge Sonic's speed. The entire system is to award points for how fast you go through the checkpoints. The numbers shown are likely the literal points awarded, simply because the cap is well over 3000. As fast as Sonic is, he is not that fast. His cap has been stated to be well under 1000 MPH (I do believe it's somewhere around the speed of sound, at least until the Chaos Emeralds come into the fray.)

If you don't want to stick an arbitrary number next to Sonic, that is fine. We can substituent SPD for X's and the equation still works. The points system awards points for speed and establishes the sound barrier at X. Later in the game, Sonic is seen running at speeds better than X * 2. If Shadow can rival Sonic's speed, he too should be able to easily surpass X as well.

I've never seen Sonic being issued a speed cap. He's always been as fast as he needed to be. Plus, he has severely shattered the sound barrier across all mediums in the past. Games, TV and especially in the comics. Mach 1 is clearly not his limit.

Edited by Sega DogTagz
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