Pepper Spray Used on 8 Year Old

[Roarey Raccoon]

Haha, pepper spray on a little kid, the pussy bastards XP.

[Dr. Mechano]

Haha, pepper spray on a little kid, the pussy bastards XP.

[Roarey Raccoon]

And you'd have recommended what course of action then?

Trying to restrain him directly could have resulted in serious injury. Child or not, a bladed weapon is dangerous and merits an attack from a safe distance to disarm.

Bladed weapon, what, a stick? XP Police are trained, tough individuals prepared to deal with dangerous adults, never mind 8 year-olds. I've seen numerous times the application of ridiculous amounts of force in situations that didn't require it. Fuck 'em first, questions later. Schools in America are more like prisons and kids are put on drugs like Ritalin that are fucking illigal in Europe. Culture stinks over there, it's out of proportion.

[DarkLight]

Bladed weapon, what, a stick? XP Police are trained, tough individuals prepared to deal with dangerous adults, never mind 8 year-olds. I've seen numerous times the application of ridiculous amounts of force in situations that didn't require it. Fuck 'em first, questions later. Schools in America are more like prisons and kids are put on drugs like Ritalin that are fucking illigal in Europe. Culture stinks over there, it's out of proportion.

That's quite the generalization for someone who probably has never been to America.

[Tornado]

Bladed weapon, what, a stick?

Certainly seemed dangerous enough to call the police in to try to handle the situation..

I've seen numerous times the application of ridiculous amounts of force in situations that didn't require it.

The way they handled this situation was literally the least-forceful way possible. The alternatives were to tase him, which is obviously much more dangerous for the child; or try to physically restrain him through brute force, which is obviously much more dangerous to the child and the police officer.

Fuck 'em first, questions later.

I imagine that since this was the third time the police had been called on the scene for this kid, and in this situation the kid was threatening to stab anyone who came close, the need to ask questions was quite low.

Schools in America are more like prisons and kids are put on drugs like Ritalin that are fucking illigal in Europe. Culture stinks over there, it's out of proportion.

I'm sure there is a point somewhere in this silly stereotype.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Tornado

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Huh. Unusual to see Roarey of all people make a dumb post.

Then again, I'dve probably been fine with hospitalising the little shit so I can talk.

[Flyboy Fox]

Bladed weapon, what, a stick? XP Police are trained, tough individuals prepared to deal with dangerous adults, never mind 8 year-olds. I've seen numerous times the application of ridiculous amounts of force in situations that didn't require it. Fuck 'em first, questions later. Schools in America are more like prisons and kids are put on drugs like Ritalin that are fucking illigal in Europe. Culture stinks over there, it's out of proportion.

Ritalin isn't illegal in Europe. I should know - they tried to put me on it when I was 14. The issue with putting kids on drugs for ADD which they often don't even have happens here too (my psychologist was convinced I had ADD and tried to put me on Ritalin, but my mother and I refused). I double checked to see if the law has changed, but no: "Ritalin is also sold in Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom, Spain, Germany, Israel and other European countries" is currently valid.

As for American schools being prisons or fucked up in some way, again I respectfully disagree. My fiancée is American and I've spent enough time in America - including inside her school, as a guest - to know that at least in her case, the school was in no way prison-like or filled up with kids doped up on unnecessary medication.

I don't know if the use of pepper spray was disproportionate or not. I wasn't there. But I do know an unfair stereotype when I see one.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I thought having ritalin in certain parts of Europe was illegal without a license or something, and punishable to more than 10 years?

...yeah, I looked it up on Wikipedia. Not the best place for a first choice, I know.

[Flyboy Fox]

I have no idea about the laws regarding Ritalin in every European country, but it's perfectly legal - and offered to kids - in the UK, where Roarz lives and is from, so for him to bring it up as an argument against America by implying it's illegal elsewhere is misleading and unfair.

[SGn3]

After reading the article and watching the interview with the child and mother, I can safely say that he has some issues. Pepper spray does seem a bit much, but how can the adults talk him down if the situation has been escalating from previous encounters. At least he admits that he has issues so that's the first step to solving his problem.

[Solly]

That's unfortunate, but I don't really blame them for their use of force. It's just pepper spray.

Schools in America are more like prisons and kids are put on drugs like Ritalin that are fucking illigal in Europe. Culture stinks over there, it's out of proportion.

Because as someone from Manchester, you have a lot of first hand knowledge and experience dealing with public education in the United States.

I'm not a big fan of America's education system, but this is an unfair generalization. It just looks ignorant.

[KittyNakajima]

Bladed weapon, what, a stick? XP Police are trained, tough individuals prepared to deal with dangerous adults, never mind 8 year-olds. I've seen numerous times the application of ridiculous amounts of force in situations that didn't require it. Fuck 'em first, questions later. Schools in America are more like prisons and kids are put on drugs like Ritalin that are fucking illigal in Europe. Culture stinks over there, it's out of proportion.

That's a damn unfair generalization if I do say so myself. You do realize that things like that aren't even close to the norm, and that a school even remotely "prison-like" as you put it has several mitigating, outside factors that would require such action? How about factoring in geographical/population density or adverse community activities such as drugs and potential gang/overall violence? Even with that, school is not a prison, and things like a metal detector and/or security guard seeing people coming in and out is only done for the safety of everyone - who should at least be there to learn or to teach.

Even at that, this kid was in a class/school for children with emotional/behavioral problems, so they were already trying to help him get his behavior in check. The police had also been called two times prior and were able to diffuse the situation those times because I can only imagine he wasn't threatening harm on others to the extent that he was this time. And according to police, he had been warned to drop the stick/weapon before they sprayed him, so it's plenty justified.

Besides, pepper spray seems like the least intrusive thing they could have done to subdue him, as opposed to bums rushing him to the ground, using any sort of physical force, or even something as equally passive as tasing him from a distance.

[Axl.EXE]

The main problems with the American education system right now are lack of discipline in many areas, and the fact that it focuses too heavily on math and science. As a result, many social studies, art, and just about anything else that doesn't strictly fall into math and science are often underfunded. In some cases, severely so.

[Roarey Raccoon]

That's unfortunate, but I don't really blame them for their use of force. It's just pepper spray. Because as someone from Manchester, you have a lot of first hand knowledge and experience dealing with public education in the United States.

I'm not a big fan of America's education system, but this is an unfair generalization. It just looks ignorant.

I have to live in America to know anything about America? I could also, like, talk to people who live there, research and stuff too! It is a generalization, but the thing is, you're not going to get much more than that in a short message. Entire books could be written on the subject, so it depends on what level of effort I'm willing to put into making a post. If you really do desire something more elaborate then I'll happily oblige you, but you better read it because I'm making an effort just for you =(.

First thing I like to consider is the Zero Tolerance Policy, of which I'm sure you're aware. Without going into detail about what the policy is, you can surely find that out on your own with the wonders of google or even personal experience, but the concept itself is complete bullshit. When dealing with children, in various stages of personal development, the idea that there is no tolerance for adverse behaviour is frankly absurd. No society in general functions on such a policy without it becoming an opressive police state. People react to the environments they find themselves in, you don't need a degree in psychology or years of research experience to work that one out. So when you have young people being obliged to turn up to an institution 5 days a week, getting bombarded with information in confusing little segments (lessons), metal detectors on the door, security personnel and rules up the arse, you don't have an environment conductive to either good behaviour or personal wellbeing. What you have is an environment where most kids feel like shit. Success! Of course, the lesson system is what you find everywhere, so it's obviously not a criticism I have specifically for American schools, it's a criticism I have for all school policy. What makes American schools different is the shift in emphasis since incidents like Columbine and 9/11, where suspicion and paranoia are paramount.

In addition to the above, the USA also suffers from a batshit insane attitude to the diagnosis of behaviour and personality disorders along with how to respond to those diagnoses. Is your child misbehaving in class? Maybe they're borderline autistic, maybe they're on the spectrum, maybe they have ADHD or Aspergers or some other bollocks. Here, have some drugs, subdue your child with them. Drugs like Ritalin are used to 'treat' children with invented disorders, with the USA being the largest user of Ritalin in the world (by a fucking huge margin I might add). These drugs are illegal in the UK, with good reason. These two main factors, amongst many others, facilitate the misery of millions and certainly don't produce generations of happy, functional and educated human beings. It's a bloody disgrace, frankly.

Is that less ignorant?

That's a damn unfair generalization if I do say so myself. You do realize that things like that aren't even close to the norm, and that a school even remotely "prison-like" as you put it has several mitigating, outside factors that would require such action? How about factoring in geographical/population density or adverse community activities such as drugs and potential gang/overall violence? Even with that, school is not a prison, and things like a metal detector and/or security guard seeing people coming in and out is only done for the safety of everyone - who should at least be there to learn or to teach.

Even at that, this kid was in a class/school for children with emotional/behavioral problems, so they were already trying to help him get his behavior in check. The police had also been called two times prior and were able to diffuse the situation those times because I can only imagine he wasn't threatening harm on others to the extent that he was this time. And according to police, he had been warned to drop the stick/weapon before they sprayed him, so it's plenty justified.

Besides, pepper spray seems like the least intrusive thing they could have done to subdue him, as opposed to bums rushing him to the ground, using any sort of physical force, or even something as equally passive as tasing him from a distance.

So at a school meant to specialise in dealing with emotional/behavioural problems, the response to a child wielding a stick is to get police to use potentially blinding pepper spray? Using mild physical force to take away the stick or leaving the kid alone in the room until he'd finished venting his frustrations and then talking to him might have been rather better. My mother used to deal with children with such problems for 14 years and never resorted to force or fucking pepper spray. There are actually other ways of dealing with things than assessing the situation as basically violent crime and responding to an 8 year-old as you would an adult. Haha. But no, I'm the ignorant and unreasonable person here. Cuckoo land.

You know what I find ignorant? The kind of attitude that labels people as basically assholes, or children as just a pain in the ass. The idea that any adverse behaviour is simply a result of a lack of discipline rather than the child not having their personal needs met. The idea that someone has to be blamed for something for a situation to make any sense, in lieu of actually trying to think of a solution or examining the situation itself. Discipline is a word I'm frankly sick of hearing and of reading, because it's used as a vague one-size-fits-all solution without any attempt at definition or elaboration; it is simply assumed that we all know what discipline is and taken for granted that the right kind of 'discipline' will be used with the right person in appropriate proportion. We're not talking about a standard school with untrained personnel suddenly being faced with a random outburst of dangerous violence; we're talking about a school apparently prepared to deal with the behaviours expected from children with special needs, with the individual in question being known for violent outbursts. Running away and locking yourself in a fucking office and calling the police is complete rubbish. That's what I meant by 'pussies', which in hindsight was rather antagonistic and I wrote it to be amusing rather than serious XP. But yeah, sounds like a shit school to me.

[Flyboy Fox]

I have to live in America to know anything about America? I could also, like, talk to people who live there, research and stuff too!

You could do all of those things, but what person or research could give you any factual data to support your basic allegation that ALL (or even most) American schools are guilty of the things you say they are? I've seen said schools first hand and my partner is an American citizen, but neither I nor even she would consider ourselves in any position to make such a sweeping generalisation. America is HUGE, and things are VERY different in different parts of the country.

First thing I like to consider is the Zero Tolerance Policy, of which I'm sure you're aware. (...) So when you have young people being obliged to turn up to an institution 5 days a week, getting bombarded with information in confusing little segments (lessons), metal detectors on the door, security personnel and rules up the arse, you don't have an environment conductive to either good behaviour or personal wellbeing. What you have is an environment where most kids feel like shit. Success! Of course, the lesson system is what you find everywhere, so it's obviously not a criticism I have specifically for American schools, it's a criticism I have for all school policy. What makes American schools different is the shift in emphasis since incidents like Columbine and 9/11, where suspicion and paranoia are paramount.

Again, policies vary state-to-state, town-to-town and even school-to-school, but when I read this I was confused. My partner's school didn't have metal detectors, security personnel or any of that shit. Her bag was never searched. It was all very laid back. I've never seen that stuff here, either. Certain places in the States have tighter regulations now, but it's absolutely not true that most schools are like institutions in atmosphere OR policy.

The school in question in the article, also, remember, is a school for disturbed children and should be expected to have tighter rules and higher security.

In addition to the above, the USA also suffers from a batshit insane attitude to the diagnosis of behaviour and personality disorders along with how to respond to those diagnoses. Is your child misbehaving in class? Maybe they're borderline autistic, maybe they're on the spectrum, maybe they have ADHD or Aspergers or some other bollocks. Here, have some drugs, subdue your child with them. Drugs like Ritalin are used to 'treat' children with invented disorders, with the USA being the largest user of Ritalin in the world (by a fucking huge margin I might add). These drugs are illegal in the UK, with good reason. These two main factors, amongst many others, facilitate the misery of millions and certainly don't produce generations of happy, functional and educated human beings. It's a bloody disgrace, frankly.

For the second time, Ritalin is not illegal in the UK. I've had it prescribed to me in exactly the same trigger-happy way as you describe happening in the States. Schools really aren't the problem here. Parents who don't want to feel inadequate take their kids to doctors who have deals with major pharmaceutical companies and are all too happy to diagnose and prescribe prescribe prescribe!

It happens here just as much. My mother, who has worked with learning-disabled children since before I was born (so, around 30 years), did her Master's paper on it recently. Mis-diagnosis and the prescription drug culture is not a solely American thing in any way.

We're not talking about a standard school with untrained personnel suddenly being faced with a random outburst of dangerous violence; we're talking about a school apparently prepared to deal with the behaviours expected from children with special needs, with the individual in question being known for violent outbursts. Running away and locking yourself in a fucking office and calling the police is complete rubbish. That's what I meant by 'pussies', which in hindsight was rather antagonistic and I wrote it to be amusing rather than serious XP. But yeah, sounds like a shit school to me.

None of us were there. I don't think any of us is in a position to judge whether the reaction was proportionate to the situation. But even if the school DID make a bad decision, I think you offended a lot of people by using one case as an excuse to go on what can really only be described as an anti-American crusade against things that I respectfully simply don't think you know everything about.

Roarey, you're awesome and I love you, but I think the American forum-goers, those who have seen and been in the schools first-hand, might be a little more knowledgeable than you on the topic of their schools.

[Way Past Cool]

As an American who grew up in the US educational system I can assure you that they're not all the sensationalist prison-state crap you get fed in the news and on TV. My school didn't have metal detectors or bag searches. I attended school during the heat of both Colombine and 9/11 and though we had to learn a couple new safety proceedures for "in the event of...", it was really no big deal. While some schools in supposed "problem areas" went a little further (yes, some have metal detectors and bag checks, though personally I've only seen them on TV), there has always been and continues to be a pretty relaxed air in our public schools. In fact, from what I've seen of British schools while living here for three years, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference besides the uniforms thing -- but then I'd really need to attend one to compare properly.

While I agree with you that perscription drug pushing is a big problem in the US, I'm also aware that it's not stricly a US problem, and it's certainly not the fault of US schools. Phychiatrists in general seem to latch on to the "disorder of the year" and slap it on every kid they see. Yes, the US has some meds that are illegal in the UK (Ritalin is not one of these, however), but I'm sure there are a host of drugs that are legal here in the UK that aren't in the US. I do applaud the UK's decision to keep percription medication commercials off TV. ...then again, without them in the US, we wouldn't have diabeetus. Lol.

Anyway, I can't say whether or not the pepper spray was too drastic, but it's not the sort of thing I would expect as typical protocol in a standard American public school.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

First thing I like to consider is the Zero Tolerance Policy, of which I'm sure you're aware. Without going into detail about what the policy is, you can surely find that out on your own with the wonders of google or even personal experience, but the concept itself is complete bullshit. When dealing with children, in various stages of personal development, the idea that there is no tolerance for adverse behaviour is frankly absurd. No society in general functions on such a policy without it becoming an opressive police state.

I'm not sure about the "oppressive police state" part, but Roarz is pretty dead on regarding the Zero Tolerance Policy, and I happen to agree with him on this part.

Pretty much if you get into a fight, your in the same amount of trouble even if you were the victim and the intent was purely self-defense as the aggressor trying to harm you. Bullying is still a problem, but the Zero Tolerance Policy does not make it any better, at least in the places I've been around. It's pretty much saying that you have to get your ass handed to you in a fight for them to punish only the aggressor, and defending yourself is not allowed lest you want the same consequences.

It can really discourage people from reporting incidents as well, as the policy is pretty much a way so that schools don't have to go through the trouble of finding out who's at fault or from actually involving themselves as much as they should on the problem.

Now everything else sounds a bit too extreme, although there is some points to them as well.

[Badnik Zero]

While the idea of blasting a random mid-tantrum brat in the face with pepper spray is satisfying, I agree with Roarey here. Who are you that you can't take out an 8-year-old with just your foot, especially as a police officer. More so, who the hell are these teachers that they call the cops instead of dealing with a situation properly.

[Vec]

Well, as Demoman says: "If you were looking for trouble lad, you found it".

It wasn't the first time that police had to deal with this brat, and now this? I'd have emptied the pepper-spray on him.

This made me remember that day when my mom, when she worked at school, was sent to the club where we had the physical education classes because a kid went on a rage because one of the teachers took away from him a plastic bottle which the kid was playing with (They sent her because she's psychologist) and both of the teachers had to work together to seize him (That being both teachers of Physical Education, only one of them should have enough strengh to stop him ). Well, the kid was under psychiatric treatment. I don't know about this one here, but if not, they should do it

[Tornado]

Is that less ignorant?

[pastelspectre]

Pepper spray is a good idea to use on this little nutjob, he needs it. He needs mental help.

[Roarey Raccoon]

Pepper spray is a good idea to use on this little nutjob, he needs it. He needs mental help.

He needs it to survive =O.

------

EDIT: Okay, here's something probably more fun than some big wall of text shite that nobody wants to read. I recorded a 'post' in audio form!

Warning, contains swearing.

http://tumblr.com/xv223ye5pn

Oh, and watch this:

http://www.tagtele.com/videos/voir/47708

There's some Americans talking about American schools, even American children talking about their schools. Take it from them if you think I'm a bullshitter XP.

[SonikkuForever]

He needs it to survive =O.

------

Okay so maybe Ritalin is used in other countries as well, but the US and Canada account for 95% of the worlds Ritalin usage, so it is definately more of a problem in North America than anywhere else, particularly for that specific drug. It's not so much in the UK because we only pay a set amount of money for our medication, so the greatest incentive to prescribe the shite, money, isn't anywhere near the same issue as it is in America. Sure, I know not all schools are fucked in the USA, I'm not retarded XP. Fuck it, watch this:

http://www.tagtele.com/videos/voir/47708

There's some Americans talking about American schools, even American children talking about their schools. Take it from them if you think I'm a bullshitter XP.

[BlazingTales]

Of course I was not present during the situation presented in the story, so I don't believe I can judge fairly whether or not pepper spray was the best choice. However, emotionally disturbed kids or other children with behavioural problems can be quite violent and, yes, in spite of their size, dangerous. If the child is truly posing as a physical threat to himself or others, and it's impossible to get near the child without someone being harmed, then I suppose the use of pepper spray could be justified.

[eXtaticus]

He's American, right? Well, the best way to deal with brain-dead nutjob idiots like this kid is a sweet 'n' sensual cocktail of violence and drugs!

YOU CHASE SOLO, WE DRINK RITALIN - HERE'S SOME FOOD I WANT TO EAT

In all seriousness, I probably would have ended up Sparta-kicking the little shit long before the fuzz arrived - if the police themselves can get away with using pepper spray, then I could most definitely pass off giving him the boot as a form of self-defence.

Yeah, he's probably going to be locked up in some psycho institution as an adult - and the rest of the world will be all the better for it, too...

Edited April 14, 2011 by eXtaticus