Sonic Misconceptions

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't know what is worse: The image which is missing the point on purpose and derails its own joke by messing up the punchline, or the 40,000 rep that the post will get for having the image in it because people don't understand the problems with it.

Edited June 29, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Carbo]

It's easier to judge modern Sonic's arsenal of games because most of those Classic's that people try condemn are purely by and large spin-offs made to capitalize on an accessible and recognized brand. You don't see modern Mario being compared in a negative light with the older Mario games, and nowadays he has more spin-offs than main title entries coming out unlike his older counterpart, which is a vice versa for Sonic in this day and age. If you'd count the Storybook series and Shadow the Hedgehog as spin-offs that sort of makes the matter worse because unlike other spin-offs these are actually made with the intent to be full-fledged Sonic experiences, and it's far easier to see those as part of the problem.

[Voyant]

So your saying that the spin-offs of the Classic era weren't full on Sonic Experiences?

You play Sonic 3D Blast? If you count Sonic and the Secret Rings as a full fledged Sonic Title there there should be nothing wrong calling Sonic Labyrinth or Sonic Spinball full fledged Sonic experiences either. (Even if they supposedly damaging to said era)

The problem is Sonic has been around for 20 years....and different people grew up with different eras...it because of this Black and White folk want to view their era as "flawless", but when someone does bring up an issue in whatever era people don't acknowledge it.

For example: Hardcore Sonic Adventure fans deem that the adventure games are the best titles...when most of them are defending the gameplay that you only actually played 30% of the entire game and completely don't acknowledge THE BAD PART.

Hardcore Classic Fans are just as guilty its just none of their main titles game have to deal with rummaging through tedious bull shit to get to the goods. I may not like Sonic Colors as much as Unleashed, but as a person....as a gamer...I know that Colors is the overall better product compared to Unleashed.

Point: I think the biggest Sonic Misconception is how the Fanbase eternally view eachother's view points....they seem to constantly not get what either side is talking about. Instead of finding a median they just what stuff their way.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Voyant

[Carbo]

You play Sonic 3D Blast? If you count Sonic and the Secret Rings as a full fledged Sonic Title there there should be nothing wrong calling Sonic Labyrinth or Sonic Spinball full fledged Sonic experiences either. (Even if they supposedly damaging to said era)

What a load of bull.

Sonic Labyrinth was not a core Sonic experience. Neither was Spinball. They didn't focus on Sonic's one core formula which is speed and platforming. They were true blue spin-offs. They were merely run of the mill games with Sonic and gimmicks added onto them. If your first thought when thinking Sonic games is having no speed what so ever, or having no speed what so ever and playing pinball, you've got one hell of a mindset.

Then there's Sonic R, Sonic Drift, Tails Adventure + Skypatrol, Mean Bean Machine, Wacky Worlds, Schoolhouse, that's barely scratching the surface, and I never said that Sonic was devoid of having spin-offs in lieu of trying to use the core Sonic formula. Those were however, very few. The only significant one worth mentioning is 3D Blast but that was one misstep in a time when Sonic was dominating the video game market, and even then it wasn't all that bad, particularly the Saturn version. Knuckles Chaotix was on a console that ultimately never got that big of an impact so very few people actually remember it or played it.

Again I raise the point - Mario has had few truly fantastic titles using the formula he revolutionized in this modern day and age, and a bundle load of spin-offs that are mostly average. But does this stop people from loving him? No, because those spin-offs don't attribute to what people recognize Mario for being, and the same can be said for all the Classic Spin-offs Sonic received. The only spinoff Modern has that has merit in not being judged as some sort of "decline of Sonic" archetype and is a genuine spin-off is Riders. Mario & Sonic doesn't really count since that is a crossover.

[Voyant]

What a load of bull.

Sonic Labyrinth was not a core Sonic experience. Neither was Spinball. They didn't focus on Sonic's one core formula which is speed and platforming. They were true blue spin-offs. They were merely run of the mill games with Sonic and gimmicks added onto them. If your first thought when thinking Sonic games is having no speed what so ever, or having no speed what so ever and playing pinball, you've got one hell of a mindset.

Then there's Sonic R, Sonic Drift, Tails Adventure + Skypatrol, Mean Bean Machine, Wacky Worlds, Schoolhouse, that's barely scratching the surface, and I never said that Sonic was devoid of having spin-offs in lieu of trying to use the core Sonic formula. Those were however, very few. The only significant one worth mentioning is 3D Blast but that was one misstep in a time when Sonic was dominating the video game market, and even then it wasn't all that bad, particularly the Saturn version. Knuckles Chaotix was on a console that ultimately never got that big of an impact so very few people actually remember it or played it.

Again I raise the point - Mario has had few truly fantastic titles using the formula he revolutionized in this modern day and age, and a bundle load of spin-offs that are mostly average. But does this stop people from loving him? No, because those spin-offs don't attribute to what people recognize Mario for being, and the same can be said for all the Classic Spin-offs Sonic received. The only spinoff Modern has that has merit in not being judged as some sort of "decline of Sonic" archetype and is a genuine spin-off is Riders. Mario & Sonic doesn't really count since that is a crossover.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Voyant

[Carbo]

See this is what I'm talking about though...why are you trying to find justification for said bad games that people have every right to acknowledge in the sake of a argument?

"Hey...nobody going to remember this game....nawww this game didn't ENTIRELY play like a sonic game should be so it shouldn't be held accountable. Sonic was doing good at the time so it really shouldn't matter."

Excuses.

That all I got from that post. ARGUABLY an Adventure fan can deem that SA/SA2 were golden times for Sonic and say the same thing about Sonic Shuffle...or Sonic Battle. Its just 1 big endless loop of arguing for the sake a a certain part of the fanbase wanting to prove their validity...where there is really no need to.

There is 1 of the core issues in the fanbase...I know you know what I'm talking about.

So you're saying that it's fair to compare say, Sonic Drift to something like Sonic 06.

That's like comparing Mario Party to Bomberman Zero.

The problem I have with what you're saying is that a majority Classic Sonic games were successful. Even if only for their time. The criticisms I see tend to be purely in retrospect, and in retrospect most people tend to count Classic trilogy (+ Knuckes and CD) alongside the Modern main entries. So if people like to use classic spin-offs as a point to fuel their argument that classics aren't better than the modern, why is never Sonic Shuffle, Rivals, Chronicles and Riders brought up as counterpoints?

The most significant Classics would have been Spinball and Mean Bean Machine. Spinball received a good number of ports, recently to the iPhone where it has gotten a positive reception. Mean Bean Machine would later turn into it's own series in the form of Puyo Pop, which was and still is huge in Japan. Most of the other games were games on Game Gear, where limitations would have had to be applied to the mission statement when making games.

Sonic warranted the mass attention he got back in the day. Not so much when he'd have stagnated around the mid 2000's. When Sonic 06 came out that was just the final nail in the coffin, which sort of justifies the lack of genre spin-offs as a re-establishment was sort of in order. Around that period you'd hope Sonic games at best to be average, where-as average was the at worst scenario in the classic days.

As a side note opinion, Secret Rings is far worse than I remember it to be.

I'm going in circles here anyway so whatever floats your boat.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Carbo

[Your Vest Friend]

BEGIN BRIEF CORRECTION INTERLUDE

Mean Bean Machine would later turn into it's own series in the form of Puyo Pop, which was and still is huge in Japan.

Edited June 29, 2011 by VEDJ-F

[Carbo]

My mistake then.

[Tornado]

See this is what I'm talking about though...why are you trying to find justification for said bad games that people have every right to acknowledge in the sake of a argument?

Because its ridiculous to hold up spin-off games as being of any importance to the argument when the typical argument generally specifically excludes the spin-off games from both eras. Doing the "look how much Labyrinth sucked that must means the classics are as bad as the modern titles" thing undermines the entire argument because it is an entire galaxy away from getting the point.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Tornado

[Kintor]

Because its ridiculous to hold up spin-off games as being of any importance to the argument when the typical argument generally specifically excludes the spin-off games from both eras. Doing the "look how much Labyrinth sucked that must means the classics are as bad as the modern titles" thing undermines the entire argument because it is an entire galaxy away from getting the point.

The ‘spin-off’ games are important to this series as well and should not be ignored for the sake of venerating one or two games over all the others made in Sonic’s long history. Sega has created many different Sonic games outside the confines of the Megadrive, each of which is deserving as an important milestone in the series – for better or worse. As I said earlier, I’m quite fond of the 8-bit Sonic games. I enjoy the gameplay and level designs of Sonic 1 and 2 on the Master System; with memorable levels like the Bridge Zone I’d like to see again one day. Besides, it was Sonic Triple Trouble –a Game Gear game- that introduced Nack the Weasel; as just one example of how other Sonic titles besides the Megadrive games are important to this franchise’s history. If we’re going to judge an era for all that its worth we must consider everything that happened during that time; this means including all the various games made during that time even if opinion is divided on that game’s quality. If we do anything less we risk erasing our memories of the past and instead replacing them with a sense nostalgia for a time that never even existed in the first place.

[Tornado]

The ‘spin-off’ games are important to this series as well and should not be ignored for the sake of venerating one or two games over all the others made in Sonic’s long history. Sega has created many different Sonic games outside the confines of the Megadrive, each of which is deserving as an important milestone in the series – for better or worse.

So tell me right now what relevance that has to two people debating the merits of the main series games from each era. Because 99.99% of the time when people say classic era, they are referring to four games, and four games only, and the comparisons are similarly almost always being done to a modern era main series game.

And, even more importantly, tell me why it is acceptable to bring up spin-off titles to paint the classic series titles as not being as good as they are represented as they are (which is already misrepresenting the argument, but let's ignore that for a second), but it is okay to ignore the modern era spin-offs.

You're also assuming that blind nostalgia factors into this somehow by default, which isn't an assumption that does anyone any favors.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Tornado

[Kintor]

So tell me right now what relevance that has to two people debating the merits of the main series games from each era. Because 99.99% of the time when people say classic era, they are referring to four games, and four games only, and the comparisons are similarly almost always being done to a modern era main series game.

And, even more importantly, tell me why it is acceptable to bring up spin-off titles to paint the classic series titles as not being as good as they are represented as they are (which is already misrepresenting the argument, but let's ignore that for a second), but it is okay to ignore the modern era spin-offs.

You're also assuming that blind nostalgia factors into this somehow by default, which isn't an assumption that does anyone any favors.

You know, I think this issue stems from one overarching problem – Sega has never defined what should be a ‘main’ Sonic game. One way to argue for a solution is that the first Megadrive games (Sonic 1, Sonic 2 and S3&K) are the ‘main’ games. But personally I don’t agree with this idea at all. The Master System may not have caught on in America but it was certainly big in Europe and South America; this is an important reason why Sega continued to support their older system by making Sonic games for it. At the same time Sega was pushing the Game Gear, not just with Master System ports but brand new Sonic games designed from the ground up for Sega’s handheld. The fact that neither machine was as successful as the Megadrive should not in any way cheapen what they have achieved for this series. Each system offers a library of Sonic games that are certainly fun. And just like the Megadrive, some games are generally considered better then others. I will defend Sonic 1 on the Master System or Sonic Triple Trouble on the Game Gear with the energy I would Sonic 3 on the Megadrive – as far as I’m concerned all are ‘main’ Sonic games.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Kintor

[ChikaBoing]

Hardcore Sonic Adventure fans deem that the adventure games are the best titles...when most of them are defending the gameplay that you only actually played 30% of the entire game and completely don't acknowledge THE BAD PART.

Yeah that annoys me too, and people say they ignore the other gameplay-styles because of Nostalgia. How does Nostalgia make you forget half, or third the game? Doesn't make sense.

And it's not even Hardcore Adventure Fans being that way,it's a pretty common thing,sadly.

[Tornado]

You know, I think this issue stems from one overarching problem – Sega has never defined what should be a ‘main’ Sonic game. One way to argue for a solution is that the first Megadrive games (Sonic 1, Sonic 2 and S3&K) are the ‘main’ games. But personally I don’t agree with this idea at all. The Master System may not have caught on in America but it was certainly big in Europe and South America; this is an important reason why Sega continued to support their older system by making Sonic games for it. At the same time Sega was pushing the Game Gear, not just with Master System ports but brand new Sonic games designed from the ground up for Sega’s handheld. The fact that neither machine was as successful as the Megadrive should not in any way cheapen what they have achieved for this series. Each system offers a library of Sonic games that are certainly fun. And just like the Megadrive, some games are generally considered better then others. I will defend Sonic 1 on the Master System or Sonic Triple Trouble on the Game Gear with the energy I would Sonic 3 on the Megadrive – as far as I’m concerned all are ‘main’ Sonic games.

You're missing the point still.

Almost always, when people refer to "classic era" games as a means of comparison, they are referring to Sonic 1, Sonic 2, S3&K or Sonic CD. And with similar frequency, the comparisons being made are being made with "main" modern era games, like Adventure 2 or Heroes or Unleashed. Should better terminology be used? Probably, but the intended meaning is still obvious.

So it is facetious, for advocates of both eras, to try to point out "well, Sonic Blast was pretty terrible" as proof that they are overstating the quality of the classic games. It is obvious when they made the comparison that they weren't talking about stuff like Sonic Blast; just like it is obvious fans of the modern era aren't talking about Sonic Shuffle when they debate the merit of the modern games. I don't think Sonic Adventure 2 is any better or worse because Free Riders sucked, so why is Sonic 3 any better or worse because Labyrinth blew?

Edited June 29, 2011 by Tornado

[Kintor]

You're missing the point still.

Almost always, when people refer to "classic era" games as a means of comparison, they are referring to Sonic 1, Sonic 2, S3&K or Sonic CD. And with similar frequency, the comparisons being made are being made with "main" modern era games, like Adventure 2 or Heroes or Unleashed. Should better terminology be used? Probably, but the intended meaning is still obvious.

So it is facetious, for advocates of both eras, to try to point out "well, Sonic Blast was pretty terrible" as proof that they are overstating the quality of the classic games. It is obvious when they made the comparison that they weren't talking about stuff like Sonic Blast; just like it is obvious fans of the modern era aren't talking about Sonic Shuffle when they debate the merit of the modern games. I don't think Sonic Adventure 2 is any better or worse because Free Riders sucked, so why is Sonic 3 any better or worse because Labyrinth blew?

Well, when you get right down to it; all Sonic games –however loosely- can trace their roots back to Sonic 1 on the Megadrive. It’s not my place to speak for every argument ever made in defence of a Sonic game. However, I do think people are well within their right to make comparisons between ‘main’ Sonic games and the more obscure ones. After all, when Sonic Adventure was pushed back for a Dreamcast release and Sonic Extreme descended into development hell Sonic 3D Blast became the only Sonic platformer on the Sega Saturn. Sonic Jam was little more then a 3D user interface for a collection of older Sonic games. While Sonic R was first and foremost a racer, with characters handling like cars – even the one’s that weren’t supposed to. So, with that in mind, I can draw comparison to Sonic 3D from three perspectives. Firstly, compared to the older Sonic games I think the gameplay was a little weaker but a good effort for Sonic’s first 3D game; especially given that the Megadrive was never designed for 3D games. Secondly, comparing Sonic 3D to Sonic Adventure, here the short comings become more apparent; Sonic 3D's gameplay is just slow compared to Sonic Adventure. It makes me wonder what Yuji Naka’s plans were for the Saturn, what Sonic Adventure would have looked like on the Sega Saturn instead of the vastly more powerful Dreamcast. But I digress. Thirdly, as a fan of both old and new Sonic games, I still think that Sonic 3D should be considered an important part of this series and not merely a spin-off. Sonic 3D is the bridge between old and new, the only Sonic platformer we got for quite a few years; something that easy to forget in this current era, where we can expect at least one (if not more) brand new Sonic game every year.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Kintor

[hypermikey]

I used to pronounce Hydrocity Zone as "Hydro City" & recently heard it mentioned as "Hi-drossi-tee" zone.

I do feel stupid, especially as "Hydrocity" sounds so much cooler.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Bob Beaky

[BADavid]

I used to pronounce Hydrocity Zone as "Hydro City" & recently heard it mentioned as "Hi-drossi-tee" zone.

I do feel stupid, especially as "Hydrocity" sounds so much cooler.

[batson]

I'm ashamed to admit that when I first got into the franchise back in 2004 - so long after the Japanese continuity became accepted in the west - I believed that Sonic and friends lived on Mobius

For some reason, the idea of a newcomer to the Sonic franchise being initially introduced to it through the classic western interpretation of it as late as 2004 is something i find really neat.

[Blue Blood]

I used to pronounce Hydrocity Zone as "Hydro City" & recently heard it mentioned as "Hi-drossi-tee" zone.

I do feel stupid, especially as "Hydrocity" sounds so much cooler.

It's never really been confirmed how you say it, whether it's like velocity or pronounced as two separate words.

[DC111]

Whoa, that's weird.

I never even considered the possibility that it could be Hy-DROSS-ity. I always thought of it as two separate words. Hm, which one is the misconception? o.o

[Match]

Since no one I knew in school knew shit about Sonic, I often heard that Shadow is Sonic's twin brother...

Sonic Adventure Battle 2 was common.

I also have one of those friends who does shit just because you do...(starting a band in seventh grade, being in drama, playing Sonic games )

More annoying is that he just PRETENDS to like Sonic. He doesn't actually play the games... When asked of his favorite Sonic game, he replied "Sonic XD." I shit you not. When another buddy of mine corrected him ("Sonic Adventure, which was remade for GC as Sonic Adventure DX: Director's Cut...") he just called us nerds and gave up. Ya don't have to be a nerd to know that...(though I am) (more damn parentheses)

Also, the same guy puts that he likes "Crush 30" on his facebook.

The fuck.

I also remember some guys in my brother's class who claimed they wouldn't be buying Colors because Mephiles wasn't in it.

Another friend of mine called Chip "Pip." Apparently Sonic Unleashed is Sonic: Great Expectations.

[Nazo]

The Shadow is Sonic's twin brother conspiracy/misconception/assumption always makes me shudder, but it gives me a clear picture of how much of a Sonic fan a person is.

When I was a kid and Sonic Adventure came out for the Dreamcast, I will always remember playing it at the electronics section of some store. And I will always remember these obnoxious teenagers always telling me that Tikal was Knuckles' girlfriend/cousin whenever I played through it. The memory always makes me chuckle.

Oh, more recently. Now I went to a Video Games live concert in February and they were having this quiz at one of the booths before the concert for prizes, and the guy was asking:

"What is Sonic's middle name?"

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable in the Sonic game universe, so I asked "Are you talking about the comic/TV version or the game?"

"Game, duh."

"Uh... Sonic has a middle name? Is it 'the'?" I was joking. I mean, come on, Sonic THE Hedgehog? "Are you sure he has a middle name?"

"Yeah, it's totally official in the game universe."

Well me and a few other people were totally stumped, and I was pretty sad I didn't get that Sonic question right. So he told us the answer (which the guy was reading from... an iPhone)... and said "Maurice"

OK. Now I am not too familiar with the Sonic comics universe, but I am pretty sure that is the official name of Sonic in the comic universe... but I don't think it's ever been mentioned in the game universe. And I asked if his question was regarding the Sonic game universe.

I pointed out the mistake and the guy pinned me as a "failure of a Sonic fan for not knowing that". Ouch.

So, unless I am wrong, is Sonic Maurice Hedgehog ever mentioned in the old classic manuals? I am pretty sure it's only in the comics it's ever mentioned...

[Match]

Maurice is only his middle name in the comics, never mentioned in the classic game manuals or anything.

[Gamenerd]

That those colour-changing bumper things in Casino Night Zone that disappear after three hits were actually some kind of neon Chili Dogs.

It's a more common misconception than you'd think.

[Vertekins]

The HY-DROSS-CITY pronunciation only stands of the zone name was spelt "HydrosCity" which it isn't. It's spelt "HydroCity". Really, the only reason I can see why "Hydro" and "City" aren't spaced is due to mere stylistic purposes rather than for a purposeful effect on pronunciation.

I've seen a misconception regarding the Knuckles Tribe's location in the past. Some say that Angel Island was already in the air in Tikal's time but this doesn't make sense at all, as the emerald shrine area is still connected to the temple area which is a part of the Mystic Ruin. When you go through the door that separates the Temple area from the Shrine, there's nothing that suggests that the character has to go through a transporter to get to an aloft emerald shrine. Also, there's water either side of the bridge in the shrine area, which isn't present in the present when Angel Island is aloft in Sonic's time. So what you're seeing in the past in Tikal's time of the shrine is at least a grounded emerald shrine.