Unleashed Daytime Gameplay: Good or Bad?

[Sami]

I don't care what anyone says, the only way to not die tons of times on your first try on an Unleashed stage is to not boost like a dumbass.

"HA HA LOL DERP I LOVE GOING FAST I'M SO GRE- AWW! WHAT!? I DIED!? NO. IT'S THE GAME'S FAULT. TRYUL AND ERRUR SAWNIK TEEM. Y U NO FAIR!?"

Obviously if you're rushing through a level on your first try, you're going to die. The boost is mapped to a button for a reason. Constantly using it without knowing what's coming is like rushing into a giant open space in a FPS. It's completely stupid.

[JezMM]

I got all S ranks and I would be very dissapointed if the Sonic Unleashed DLC stages hadn't kicked my ass a bit because I didn't know them so well.

I still maintain that all through Sonic Unleashed I never felt cheated or surprised once by a hazard outside of the DLC. I saw them and I either reacted quick enough or didn't. I can't recall a single moment where something literally comes out of nowhere regardless of the speed you're travelling.

[Voyant]

I got all S ranks and I would be very dissapointed if the Sonic Unleashed DLC stages hadn't kicked my ass a bit because I didn't know them so well.

I still maintain that all through Sonic Unleashed I never felt cheated or surprised once by a hazard outside of the DLC. I saw them and I either reacted quick enough or didn't. I can't recall a single moment where something literally comes out of nowhere regardless of the speed you're traveling.

What I don't understand is why people feel like a game needs to hold your hand and be a cake walk. There is only so much you can do with Sonic till its not "Sonicy". Its even worse in a 3D perspective.

What's fun about being an "expert" and breezing by games with no difficulties what so ever? Might as well make the game 1 long straight path with nothing in between and call it a day. I'm sure anyone who played the classics had some kind of trouble playing the game the first time.

Just sayin...Unleashed was pretty thrilling in its own right, but it didn't get wtf challenging for me until I played the DLC versions of main stages (Excluding Eggmanland).

[ChikaBoing]

ITs called difficulty dude, do you really want the game to hold your hand for the whole playthrough? This is actually my problem with most of the Adventure games, they're too damn easy, it takes away the fun when I can just breeze through a level with no effort,

Well Adventure 2 is kinda difficult in it's own way,with doing tricks,light dashes etc. in exact precision, but it's not in the way plattformers are usually chalenging. Unleashed offeres more of the challenge of the old games and other plattformers.

[Scar]

In SA2 it was hard to get good ranks, but easy to beat the levels.

In Unleashed it was easy to get good ranks (by that I mean A/B), but the later stages on the whole were a lot more challenging than anything offered by previous 3D ventures.

[Phos]

Whether you guys like it or not The Unleashed style is here to stay, while I do agree that it needs a lot of tweaking expecting Sonic Team to throw away a concept that actually works for them, was critically acclaimed by not only fans, but plenty of critics...is beyond stupid. People can hate all they want, but since ST wants to change they way they handle Sonic Games, this is what we got.

If you don't like it then you can go play Mario or something till something comes out that suits your fancy...its that simple.

Its like Telling Nintendo to change the way they make Zelda Games after Ocarina of Time. Even with Windwaker there was a still general concept that didn't change and that formula has worked all this time to even now.

Let them do their thing and I'm sure the Unleashed style will bloom into something grand just give it time.

(And people upvoted this post...?)

First off, you don't see to understand what that meme actually implies. It implies this:

So it kind of doesn't make a lot of sense to use it and then claim that you're not trying to be an asshole. It's kind of funny, really.

First off, I can give you one really good reason why developers would want to stray away from this sort of gameplay: It takes a lot of work to make that much background to shoop past and results in a not very long game. There will never be a game purely composed of this sort of gameplay.

More to the point, there's no particular reason that the much lauded speed can't be made part of a more encompassing gameplay style that uses it as a component rather than the entire thing. Taking it off the rails also allows for more kinds of speed, such as springs actually meaning something and taking the fast way over curved surfaces.

"HA HA LOL DERP I LOVE GOING FAST I'M SO GRE- AWW! WHAT!? I DIED!? NO. IT'S THE GAME'S FAULT. TRYUL AND ERRUR SAWNIK TEEM. Y U NO FAIR!?"

I beat Demon's Souls but this is basically how I feel about Unleashed. Go beat Demon's Souls and then try again.

Obviously if you're rushing through a level on your first try, you're going to die. The boost is mapped to a button for a reason. Constantly using it without knowing what's coming is like rushing into a giant open space in a FPS. It's completely stupid.

There isn't enough to the game for not boosting to be a real option, not to mention the number of times the game will kill you due to not boosting.

And as for the FPS comparison, that depends on the game. In your typical CoD clone, yeah, but if you don't do that in a Quake III Arena sort of FPS your opponent is going to control the good weapons because you've been wasting time in one spot.

[Voyant]

(And people upvoted this post...?)

First off, I can give you one really good reason why developers would want to stray away from this sort of gameplay: It takes a lot of work to make that much background to shoop past and results in a not very long game. There will never be a game purely composed of this sort of gameplay.

More to the point, there's no particular reason that the much lauded speed can't be made part of a more encompassing gameplay style that uses it as a component rather than the entire thing. Taking it off the rails also allows for more kinds of speed, such as springs actually meaning something and taking the fast way over curved surfaces.

1. All good games take time to make...ST is realizing this. Why shoot for the mediocre YET again when they can be pumping out excellent looking games at high speeds? I have no problems with them adding ideas as long as their well executed and don't RUIN the overall experience in the game. I'm not trying to be an asshole...I'm being REALISTIC if that comes off as being sort of a prick then I apologize.

Also when you have the technology down already it gets much easier after that. It better off them perfecting what they have now than to scrap it and start again especially now since they gotten to a halfway point.

2.I completely agree and to be honest that is the sort of gameplay I see Unleashed style evolving into,but for that to happen you got to let the team get competent with what they have now...there is such a thing as asking for too much. Asking for the perfect game from a Team that just got back on their feet from INCOMPETENT people possibly smoking crystal meth while they make Sonic Games, is like asking a body builder who stopped lifting weights for 3 years to pump the same weight in his prime. Its not going to happen.

You don't hit rock bottom and in 1 step hit the top...life in GENERAL doesn't work that way.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Voyant

[Sami]

I beat Demon's Souls but this is basically how I feel about Unleashed. Go beat Demon's Souls and then try again.

I have beaten Demon's Souls. Five times. Doesn't deserve any less, considering it's the best game I've ever played.

There isn't enough to the game for not boosting to be a real option, not to mention the number of times the game will kill you due to not boosting.

I didn't go through the whole game without boosting, but I did try to play it like SA2 once or twice on a few levels. I didn't see any problem with it.

And as for the FPS comparison, that depends on the game. In your typical CoD clone, yeah, but if you don't do that in a Quake III Arena sort of FPS your opponent is going to control the good weapons because you've been wasting time in one spot.

Then let's use Demon's Souls, since you wanted to bring that up. In Demon's Souls, you need to be cautious, read every warning sign, and take things slow if you want to live. Sprint into every new room and there's a sure chance of dying, whether by pit, enemy, or another trap. For example, when you're fighting the boss of the Valley of Defilement (that priestess), it looks like you can go into the lake and avoid the knight guarding her. Just stay in the shallow part, and you should be fine, right? Wrong. Not only does the liquid lower your HP every second, but it's also littered with the most disgusting little abominations I've ever seen: The plague babies.

Case in point, Demon's Souls had plenty of trial and error as well, but you seem fine with that game. Reason?

[Diogenes]

Why shoot for the mediocre YET again

Why, indeed. That sounds like exactly what they're doing here.

[Scar]

@Tornado or anyone else who feels the same way about cheapness/difficulty.

How exactly do you make a Sonic game, which is centred on speed (don't even try to say its not, because it is, being able to go fast has been Sonic's gimmick from the start) difficult without it being cheap. See going fast has many risks associated with it. Doesn't matter how you build up that speed, its still dangerous. Why? Because you can hit something due to not being able to react fast enough (the risk of things like Formula 1 racing). Well you could say fast segments should not have any obstacles in it, but that's not really good design, because a Sonic game should be able to blend speed seamlessly into the whole level, rather than just having certain parts be fast and other parts be slow.

I'm not being a smartass here, I seriously want to know, because I certainly can't think of anything.

The only way you could call Unleashed cheap, is if you reached boost-speed without it being a button, because it means you are forced to take things on at the speed of sound. The boost allows you to go at the speed of sound, but you can choose when to do it. This way you can take the levels on without going at the speed of sound.

People then say that water-running sections are cheap because you are forced to boost on the water to keep up your momentum (you can cheat by just drifting all the time). However, the first time you're required to do it, there are no obstacles and a fuckton of rings to keep the guage full (Cool Edge Day). The second time you do it, you're expected to drift as well, but if you can't the game gives you dash-panels on small islands that push you in the right direction, and there are no 1-hit kill traps, just things you need to dodge (which is circumvented by dash-panels). Obviously at this point you should be good enough at drifting to be able to do it on your own, but just in case you aren't the game provides you with an alternate means of completing it (Dragon Road). The third time you're supposed to do it, they finally introduce some actual traps that are insta-kill and they're fairly obvious (giant white pillars of water). The game still has islands with dashpanels in them to direct you if you're still not good at drifting (Jungle Joyride). Obivously, you've pretty much got all of the skills you need, so you should be able to do it properly at this point.

Now all of this kind of cheapness could be circumvented if Unleashed had underwater sections in those areas, but honestly, the framerate would have killed it due to there being so much shit on the screen.

Bah, maybe they should make the boost a rare powerup that combines invincibility with speed shoes or some shit.

EDIT:

C'mon Diogenes, we've actually seen alternate routes/multiple acts at this point, based on some new footage with the Modern Corkscrew that isn't in the complete act. They probably aren't aiming at mediocre here.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Scar

[JezMM]

There isn't enough to the game for not boosting to be a real option, not to mention the number of times the game will kill you due to not boosting.

The water section in Holoska, the water section in Chun-Nan, the water section in Adabat, MAYBE the final segment of the Eggmanland Day Boss...

... That's pretty much the only times you have to boost to stay alive dude. I know, I did an X-button rationing run of the whole game just to try it out.]

This isn't to prove a point or anything, because I know I'm TECHNICALLY playing the game "improperly", but, relevant:

Edited May 1, 2011 by JezMM

[Voyant]

Why, indeed. That sounds like exactly what they're doing here.

Must we resort to trolling now? I mean really?

[Diogenes]

Must we resort to trolling now? I mean really?

I wasn't trolling.

[Chooch]

Suddenly a game being linear is a fucking travesty to modern game design.

I don't really get it.

[ChikaBoing]

At least there it's less linear than FF13.

If anything, Sonic now is about Square-Enix quality in Game Design.,.

[Voyant]

Suddenly a game being linear is a fucking travesty to modern game design.

I don't really get it.

Some people won't be happy until we get a Sonic Game with 7 levels each as big as GTA4. I starting to come to that conclusion.

People can't realize what they want systems nowadays can't do without ridiculous framerate drops and sacrificing graphics to look like they did on the N64.

Some people need to study some game design and maybe they will understand why.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Voyant

[Diogenes]

Some people won't be happy until we get a Sonic Game with 7 levels each as big as GTA4. I starting to come to that conclusion.

No one is asking for this, stop making shit up.

[Ferno]

No one is asking for this, stop making shit up.

It's kinda being implied though...maybe not on here, but, still.

[Voyant]

No one is asking for this, stop making shit up.

You complain about first levels in games that are most likely unfinished. Then you complain after everyone shows you proof of alternate paths that Sonic could have taken (which are more dynamic than the ones you even do in apotos). Then there even more proof of a path that puts you in a WHOLE different section in Green Hill Zone that completely off the main road...and you still consider it "mediocre".

To think this GRAND debate started on possible stock footage on Green Hill Zone is insane. Its shocking and sad at the same time that I have even argued about it for this long.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Voyant

[Sean]

To think this GRAND debate started on stock footage on Green Hill Zone is insane. Its shocking and sad at the same time that I have even argued about it for this long.

And you decided to continue it anyway. Stop this ridiculous holier-than-thou act of yours and try to have a decent debate with someone without stooping to jabs like these. Oh, and I'm telling you this as a moderator. Don't make me do it again.

[Diogenes]

You complain about first levels in games that are most likely unfinished.

If they put it in a trailer, it's up for judgment. Not final judgment, sure, but as I have said, several times, I am not making absolute final judgments. And given the series' often well-deserved reputation, I think it's pretty reasonable to be a bit cynical.

Then you complain after everyone shows you proof of alternate paths that Sonic could have taken

In the 3D sections? I haven't seen anyone saying that. At least, none that look plausible.

Then there even more proof of a path that puts you in a WHOLE different section in Green Hill Zone that completely off the main road

I've managed to miss this completely. Got a link?

To think this GRAND debate started on possible stock footage on Green Hill Zone is insane. Its shocking and sad at the same time that I have even argued about it for this long.

It takes two to tango, man; the only reason I've had to keep this up for so long is because people (mostly you) keep getting worked up about what I'm saying.

[Preston]

I think Unleashed Daytime Gameplay is good like goodies.

It just needs refinement. Make Sonic's handling easier to control and all that jazz.

[RidersDX]

I think there just needs to be a better balance between platforming and speed in the formula. Unleashed kind of did this, but it became way too cheap as it got on. Maybe you may have the will power to play Adabat 100 times until you finally get lucky and get through that water part without some dumb building crashing onto you making you fall, but I don't. I felt Colors toned the difficulty down a bit too much, and there were acts for platforming, and acts for speed. But only very few acts where they combine them and create something that really does utilize this formula to its full potential. I just want there to be more platforming in 3D, and for them to play more like the Adventure games. Sega can do that no problem, there were some decent 3D platforming sequences in both Unleashed and Colors.

Of course, I won't rule out the idea of the Adventure gameplay at least popping up again like the classic gameplay has.

[Nepenthe]

Out of all the examples of cheapness you probably could have used, you state the Adabat water running sections? Not only do these obstacles enact in plain sight well before you even reach them, giving you plenty of time to react, but all you have to do is drift around or, at least, move away to give the collapses enough of a berth. Even more ironically, in a topic and environment where hallway level design has been condemned, you cite one of the few occasions where Sonic Team gives you the ocean to move around in as bad design. That is one of the obstacles in the game that relies the least on luck.

[RidersDX]

Out of all the examples of cheapness you probably could have used, you state the Adabat water running sections? Not only do these obstacles enact in plain sight well before you even reach them, giving you plenty of time to react, but all you have to do is drift around or, at least, move away to give the collapses enough of a berth. Even more ironically, in a topic and environment where hallway level design has been condemned, you cite one of the few occasions where Sonic Team gives you the ocean to move around in as bad design. That is one of the obstacles in the game that relies the least on luck.

Move the other way? Okay, it's too bad I don't see the thing collapsing in time to turn enough to avoid it. And is that thing going to collapse towards the left or the right? I don't have a clue, and I'm expected to memorize the patterns of all of those things? Not to mention there's so many other things going on in that stage you're probably going to be dying for. You don't get to stop on water because if you do, you're dead. You can't drift, because your thumb is smack dab on the X button to boost in areas that require you to really turn to avoid the obstacles. When you're boosting, it's hard to turn because physics won't aloud that kind of turning at such high speeds. Nothing wrong with the physics, but this is the level design. Adabat is an insane level. There's way too many things to focus on at once in the ocean. You have possibly bombs exploding inside the ocean causing water spouts. And also, it's not linear, so you actually have to try and find your way on where to go next, WHILE BOOSTING AT THE SAME TIME. And you expect me to notice a building collapsing while doing all of this? I'm sorry, I don't like linearity, but I don't want level design like that either where there's just way too much going on.