New Smash Bros?

[Solly]

Which probably played a big part of Sonic being one of the worst characters in the game, thank the fans for Project M and a proper Sonic XD

Considering there are quite a few characters that are way worse than him, I wouldn't say so.

 

Also I wouldn't call Sonic "weak." He gets decent damage, but his real problem is that he lacks a killing move. I don't see how their was less thought put into his balance and design than other characters like Link, or Ganondorf, or Yoshi, who are some of the worst of the bunch. 

 

Balance issues are present in every game, but in Smash's case, I think it may have something to do with Sakurai literally handling character balance by himself up until this point.

[-Robin-]

He gets decent damage, sure, but when those moves have low knockback to them, it becomes that much more difficult to kill once the combos stop being combos and the moves stale.

 

Peach and Sheik also get great damage outputs and can combo you for days, but if you play smart, they're not going to kill you until 180 or so....unless they strike you with their fantastic Usmash tippers and send you flying at 90. Sonic doesn't even get that.

 

Lacking a kill move sorta implies that he's lacking in the strength department. Sonic doesn't have a strong, quick move to rely on for the kill at higher percents like Ike's Bair, Snake's Utilt, or MK's Dsmash, and the moves he does have to kill require some specific spacing and reading to get the kill, which leads to the moves being telegraphed and reacted to properly after a while.

 

 

Link has strong moves, but they also come out reasonably quick, and he's got projectiles and his Clawshot to keep a constant stream of offensive and defensive momentum. Proper use of DI and his Bombs also give him a greater degree of survivability offstage, but still, his recovery is one of weakest points, sure. Ganondorf was balanced almost opposite to Sonic - demonically powerful, but very slow. But, he does have guaranteed kills off of Flame Choke on all but 3 or so characters at 90.

 

 

I think Yoshi was designed well. His shield may be bleh, but his moveset gives him wonderful opportunities to string attacks together, a fantastic command grab and pivot grab, a projectile that has two hits to it so can't be shielded forever, and a Usmash that kills at a reasonable 130-140 and is easy to hit. And similar to Link's case, DI makes sure Yoshi is never going to get gimped, especially since his UpB was buffed to include a hop to it. A good character with shield and some strength issues, but has a moveset tailored to pester opponents forever.

[buba]

So you would pay money for a console you don't want just because of one game that may or may not have Sonic in it??

 

Seems legit.

 

I actually did that with the Wii and Brawl.

I asked the whole year for a PS3, but when I saw Sonic in Brawl I changed my mind and started asking for a Wii with the game instead.

It probably is the biggest regret in my gaming life. That and buying Sonic & the Secret Rings.

[Solly]

He gets decent damage, sure, but when those moves have low knockback to them, it becomes that much more difficult to kill once the combos stop being combos and the moves stale.

 

Peach and Sheik also get great damage outputs and can combo you for days, but if you play smart, they're not going to kill you until 180 or so....unless they strike you with their fantastic Usmash tippers and send you flying at 90. Sonic doesn't even get that.

 

Lacking a kill move sorta implies that he's lacking in the strength department. Sonic doesn't have a strong, quick move to rely on for the kill at higher percents like Ike's Bair, Snake's Utilt, or MK's Dsmash, and the moves he does have to kill require some specific spacing and reading to get the kill, which leads to the moves being telegraphed and reacted to properly after a while.

 

 

Link has strong moves, but they also come out reasonably quick, and he's got projectiles and his Clawshot to keep a constant stream of offensive and defensive momentum. Proper use of DI and his Bombs also give him a greater degree of survivability offstage, but still, his recovery is one of weakest points, sure. Ganondorf was balanced almost opposite to Sonic - demonically powerful, but very slow. But, he does have guaranteed kills off of Flame Choke on all but 3 or so characters at 90.

 

 

I think Yoshi was designed well. His shield may be bleh, but his moveset gives him wonderful opportunities to string attacks together, a fantastic command grab and pivot grab, a projectile that has two hits to it so can't be shielded forever, and a Usmash that kills at a reasonable 130-140 and is easy to hit. And similar to Link's case, DI makes sure Yoshi is never going to get gimped, especially since his UpB was buffed to include a hop to it. A good character with shield and some strength issues, but has a moveset tailored to pester opponents forever.

Brawl has no combos, what are you talking about? :V

 

I really just disagree. I mean, sure, I never said he was a really good character, but I think there's just as much thought put into his design as anyone else. He's a fast character with good mobility, one of the highest air speeds and decent damage offset by lack of a projectile or good killing move. Heavily flawed, but he's far from being the worst.

 

Link and Ganon's strengths don't offset their slow speeds and dismal recoveries by nearly enough, and other characters are simply better at their jobs. 

The tier list seems to agree with me. He's ranked higher than Link, Yoshi, Ganon, and even Shiek. Sonic's far from being good, but you're downplaying him a bit much. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Tiers R 4 Queers!

...

...

Sorry, I just wanted to say that.

 

But isn't Sonic played so drastically different from every player due to his moveset being somewhat unpredictable?

[-Robin-]

Brawl has no combos, what are you talking about? :V

 

I really just disagree. I mean, sure, I never said he was a really good character, but I think there's just as much thought put into his design as anyone else. He's a fast character with good mobility, one of the highest air speeds and decent damage offset by lack of a projectile or good killing move. Heavily flawed, but he's far from being the worst.

 

Link and Ganon's strengths don't offset their slow speeds and dismal recoveries by nearly enough, and other characters are simply better at their jobs. 

The tier list seems to agree with me. He's ranked higher than Link, Yoshi, Ganon, and even Shiek. Sonic's far from being good, but you're downplaying him a bit much. 

 

Maybe I'm just downplaying him because I use him in tournaments and am just used to and can pinpoint his flaws and get aggravated at them.

 

And maybe I am being too quick to call out his design process in Brawl. I just feel that some of his attributes seem a bit..straightforward and lacking, I guess? Sonic is quick and struggles to kill, but I see Pikachu right at his heels and netting clean KOs with his wonderful Nair and Fsmash. Sonic has decent damage racking capabilities with his Spindash - shame that you can practically sit in one spot and Rapid Jab and stop anything from happening, thanks to the hitbox of the spindash actually being smaller than Sonic's ball form itself. Sonic has good airspeed, but that's only maximum airspeed. Without Spinshot, Sonic has a pretty meh aerial acceleration. His supposed good points have some critical weaknesses to them, to me.

[Speederino]

From the perspective of someone who does not care about playing Brawl competitively and doesn't have too many nice things to say about "tiers", I do think Sonic is maybe a smidge underrated. He's not my main (that would be Kirby), but I think if played well he can be quite unpredictable and effective at raking up the damage. His smash attacks suck, sure, but in my experience they still *work* if you can charge them up well enough. And even when you don't get that opportunity, there's more then one way to send someone falling or flying. Yay [h]edgehogging.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Speederino

[Tara]

From the perspective of someone who does not care about playing Brawl competitively and doesn't have too many nice things to say about "tiers", I do think Sonic is maybe a smidge underrated. He's not my main (that would be Kirby), but I think if played well he can be quite unpredictable and effective at raking up the damage. His smash attacks suck, sure, but in my experience they still *work* if you can charge them up well enough. And even when you don't get that opportunity, there's more then one way to send someone falling or flying. Yay [h]edgehogging.

Yeah, I'm not much of a competitive player, either, so I found Sonic to be really enjoyable.  Flawed, but enjoyable.

[Xenos]

Considering I don't bother with the tier stuff (Seriously, shouldn't it depend on the player how decent a character is at fighting another character? Sure that may not always be the case, but c'mon.) Sonic seems good enough to me.

 

He's fast and very agile, one of the more light characters in the game as well. He also has a lot of ways to rack up damage rapidly and chain attacks together a lot easier compared to other characters from what I've seen. And I think that more than makes up for his not-so-great damage output half the time.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Considering I don't bother with the tier stuff (Seriously, shouldn't it depend on the player how decent a character is at fighting another character? Sure that may not always be the case, but c'mon.) 

 

Well yes. The tier list is intended to be a sort of gauge of potential: what the best X player has accomplished as opposed to the best Y player, and so on. The very best Meta Knight player has a much easier time playing the game than the very best Ganon player, but of course you can have an experienced Ganon player whoop the buttocks of a less experienced MK player. Tiers weren't made to gauge how good a given player will be, but rather how far it is known they can grow with the given character.

[Diogenes]

Considering I don't bother with the tier stuff (Seriously, shouldn't it depend on the player how decent a character is at fighting another character? Sure that may not always be the case, but c'mon.) 

There's a reason you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

[Burnt Ash]

Bit late on the discussion, but as much as I want Sonic to be in the game, the character I really want in the game is Ness, seeing as he's my main in Brawl. 

[Tori Himemiya]

Bit late on the discussion, but as much as I want Sonic to be in the game, the character I really want in the game is Ness, seeing as he's my main in Brawl.

Considering Ness' track record he is pretty much in the game.

I mean its a consistent thing. I highly doubt Ness would randomly disappear on us.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Crow the BOOLET

[Solly]

Considering I don't bother with the tier stuff (Seriously, shouldn't it depend on the player how decent a character is at fighting another character? Sure that may not always be the case, but c'mon.) Sonic seems good enough to me.

 

He's fast and very agile, one of the more light characters in the game as well. He also has a lot of ways to rack up damage rapidly and chain attacks together a lot easier compared to other characters from what I've seen. And I think that more than makes up for his not-so-great damage output half the time.

I'm not a competitive Smash player and generally don't see it as a competitive game, but there's a level of truth to well researched tier lists in higher level play. Generally, yes, a player can win with any character, and their skill level matters, but some characters are unavoidably better than others, have more developed games, win more often and have favorable and unfavorable match-ups against different characters. Tier lists just illustrate this.

 

Although the tier lists strictly refer to competitive 1 vs.1 Smash Brothers, which isn't really how the games were intended to be played. It's designed to be played with items and Final Smashes on, with potentially more than 2 players. Some characters are meant to have an easier time in Brawls with time limits than fighting single opponents, and other characters are meant to have an easier time getting the Smash Ball or have a better Final Smash to make up for some of their shortcomings.

[Nintendoga]

Sakurai has been trying to get rid of my man Ness for 2 games straight, he'd better be in this one.

If he wanted to get rid of somebody, let it be Jigglypuff.

What was the roster in Brawl, 35? I'm guessing since Sakurai will probably want to keep the roster around that number, which characters do you guys think will be removed in the next game?

I'm betting on Wolf, Ike (probably replaced with someone from Awakening), Lucario (again, replaced), R.O.B., Pokemon Trainer, and (maybe) Toon Link?

[Burnt Ash]

Lucario will probably be replaced with a more current gen pokemon, similar to how Mewtwo was given the kick after Melee. And as for Toon Link, I could see Toon Link staying in the game, what with Wind Waker HD being developed as well.

[Solly]

Wasn't it Itoi, the series' creator who said they didn't want Mother stuff in Smash Bros anymore? I don't recall Sakurai saying anything like that.

 

 And as for Toon Link, I could see Toon Link staying in the game, what with Wind Waker HD being developed as well.

I honestly feel that one Link is enough.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Lucario will be replaced be Zoroark, if I'm up to date on my trends.

 

On a side note, I would actually be okay with replacing the Marth of Fire Emblem I with the Marth from Awakening. 

[Emperor Robrainiac]

If he wanted to get rid of somebody, let it be Jigglypuff.

 

 

Sorry, but as long as Jigglypuff is popular in Japan, I highly doubt that's the last we're gonna see the last of that pink lump. 

Er, at least, that's what I heard. The Japanese seem to enjoy Jigglypuff more than the western audiences do... But then again, I don't know how they feel about her as a character in Smash Bros, so I'm probably just pulling stuff out of my ass right now.

 

Either way, I probably wouldn't feel any strong emotion whatsoever if I learned Jigglypuff was taken out. I think she/it is fun to play as sometimes, but nothing too spectacular.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, fixed the text.

 

Edited March 13, 2013 by MAYHEM!

[Soniman]

I think it would be kind of cool if Pokemon Trainer was replaced with a Gen 2 or 3 variation of him.

[-Robin-]

If Smash adheres to the Grandfather Clause like it did for Brawl, the SSB 12 are staying. If there needs to be another reason for Jigglypuff to stick around, and this is certainly a huge stretch, then it can be used to represent Pokémon Conquest, and by extension the Pokémon spin-off library.

 

I would sooner send Falco away than let Wolf go, seeing how Wolf is Fox's arch-rival and all. Zoroark is kind of iffy - Gen VI is just around the corner, and Brawl left Gen III Smash candidates in the dark in favor of Gen IV showcasing, only giving Gen III 2 songs and Pokemon cameos on PS2, so the same can be said for Gen V here. Depends on how the lineup looks for Gen VI.

[ProfessorZolo]

Personally hopeful Mewtwo will return, replacing Lucario, what with his reappearance in the new movie. It's gotta be him or Genesect, surely?

[Xenos]

Well yes. The tier list is intended to be a sort of gauge of potential: what the best X player has accomplished as opposed to the best Y player, and so on. The very best Meta Knight player has a much easier time playing the game than the very best Ganon player, but of course you can have an experienced Ganon player whoop the buttocks of a less experienced MK player. Tiers weren't made to gauge how good a given player will be, but rather how far it is known they can grow with the given character.

 

I guess that makes more sense then.

 

 

If Smash adheres to the Grandfather Clause like it did for Brawl, the SSB 12 are staying. If there needs to be another reason for Jigglypuff to stick around, and this is certainly a huge stretch, then it can be used to represent Pokémon Conquest, and by extension the Pokémon spin-off library.

 

I would sooner send Falco away than let Wolf go, seeing how Wolf is Fox's arch-rival and all. Zoroark is kind of iffy - Gen VI is just around the corner, and Brawl left Gen III Smash candidates in the dark in favor of Gen IV showcasing, only giving Gen III 2 songs and Pokemon cameos on PS2, so the same can be said for Gen V here. Depends on how the lineup looks for Gen VI.

 

Getting rid of Falco and keeping Wolf...? Seems sort of odd to me. It's sort of like having Mario but not Luigi, but I guess that comparison doesn't work since the 2 have a vastly different dynamic compared to the Mario Bros.

 

Wolf might be less of a clone but I still think they could retool his moveset to be more unique, personally. alsoneedsmoarleather

[KHCast]

Looking at Xenos's sig reminded me, I wonder if Professor layton could have a chance at making it in somehow. Wasn't he a popular character people wanted to see? Probably won't happen, but I can dream. Even though I also still want to keep 3rd party characters minimal, It'd be interesting seeing KH or TWEWY representation...

[buba]

Personally hopeful Mewtwo will return, replacing Lucario, what with his reappearance in the new movie. It's gotta be him or Genesect, surely?

 

The games are way more important than the movies and X/Y will be out this year, so I think that a Gen VI Pokémon will replace Lucario and not a Gen V one.